Early christianity only after 1000 A.D.?
Eino
discusses some new view of the early christianity (see
www.jesus1053.com). Who can give me some additional information about
the new chronology of christianity or any valid counter arguments?
Roger Pearse
Since my German is very limited I was unable to locate the relevant
portion of the site. However it isn't good news that Hardouin is
mentioned, since he was a crank who believed all ancient literature
was forged in modern times, ancient manuscripts notwithstanding.
Best wishes,
Roger Pearse
Roger Pearse
Since my German is very limited I was unable to locate the relevant
Frank Plamboeck
your trash. The historians there showed evidences that your arguments are
bullshit.
And Eino - you can use your name: Eugen Gabowitsch.
"Eino" <eg...@web.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:581f078f.02030...@posting.google.com...
Tom Lehman
the German history newsgroup about chronology! I can only read about 80% of
the discussion, because it is in the German language, and my German isn't that
good. But, what I have read is very interesting to this American.
I don't know about the particular character in question, but, much of the
discussion is unique. I've got my doubts about the length of the "Dark Ages",
the rise of Islam, and the Christian response time.
Tom Lehman
Tony Jebson
[snip]
> I don't know about the particular character in question, but, much
of the
> discussion is unique. I've got my doubts about the length of the
"Dark
> Ages", the rise of Islam, and the Christian response time.
If you mean that the "Dark Ages" weren't really so dark, then
modern historians are mostly with you -- even the term "Dark
Ages" is depracated (except for specialised meanings).
However, if you really mean you buy some of the missing years
"theories", then that is *way* out there and no reputable historian
subscribes to any of these theories. AD chronology may be out
by a year here or there, but there aren't any missing centuries.
These theories have been debunked in some detail on usenet.
I suggest you search around on Google. Start with searches for
Illig / Fomenko on either soc.history.medieval or alt.archaeology.
That should provide ample evidence that the arguments for
missing centuries are weak at best.
[snip]
--- Tony Jebson
Paul J Gans
>[snip]
>--- Tony Jebson
There is tree ring data for Europe going back to at least
1600 BC. One can count the years from pre-classical Greece
that way.
Tree ring data is something like the periodic chart of the
elements. Once it is understood, it becomes crystal clear
that there are no missing elements in the bulk of the table.
It is not possible to drop any elements either. In the
same way, it is not possible to drop a few centuries here
or there from European chronology either.
But having dealt with neo-Velikovskians for a while I
fully understand that logic will have absolutely no effect
on true-believers in Fomenko's notions. About the only
good that comes of it is that it allows the rest of us
to find out who is easily suggestible. ;-)
---- Paul J. Gans
Inger E
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:a77t6p$a22$3...@reader2.panix.com...
Well the only time anything might have been missed in written sources
documentation regarding the Goths is that there are no documentation for
year 610-650 AD but all events from year 8 AD is documentated in at least
two, possibly three-four independent sources written by contemporary
Historians normally they either have been on the opposite side or have had
the story told of such persons who participated themselves. So no missing
elements in written documentation.
Inger E
Tim O'Neill
Inger E wrote:
> "Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:a77t6p$a22$3...@reader2.panix.com...
>
> > There is tree ring data for Europe going back to at least
> > 1600 BC. One can count the years from pre-classical Greece
> > that way.
> >
> > Tree ring data is something like the periodic chart of the
> > elements. Once it is understood, it becomes crystal clear
> > that there are no missing elements in the bulk of the table.
>
> Well the only time anything might have been missed in written sources
> documentation regarding the Goths is that there are no documentation for
> year 610-650 AD ...
Under the Visigoth king Sisebut (612-21) the Byzantines in Spain were
reduced to a small enclave in the Algarve and in the reign of his
successor Suinthila (621-31) their complete expulsion was achieved
(in 624 to be precise). The canons of the Fourth Council of Toledo
(633) laid down that the whole population should take an oath to
preserve the unity of the Gothic people in Spain, while the Fifth
and Sixth Councils of Toledo maintained that only a noble Goth
could become king - these canons were written in 636 and 638.
The Frankish chronicler Fredegar tells us about the reign of King
Chindaswinth (642-53) and Bishop Eugenius of Toledo records
his epitaph.
In other words, there is a great deal of documentary evidence
regarding the Visigoths from 610-650 AD. What on earth
are you talking about?
> ... but all events from year 8 AD is documentated in at least
> two, possibly three-four independent sources written by contemporary
> Historians normally they either have been on the opposite side or have had
> the story told of such persons who participated themselves. So no missing
> elements in written documentation.
Really? So what is the second (or third or fourth) piece of documentary
evidence supporting Jordanes account of 'Berig' and his crossing from
Scandinavia to the shore of the Baltic Sea?
Looking forward to your detailed and well documented reply.
Tim O'Neill
Inger E
I wasn't talking about the Visigoths, I should have written Ostrogoths
because that was what I was thinking about - when the Visigoths ended up in
Spain their contacts up North faded away, when the Ostrogoths lost their
Italian territory there still was Ostrogoths in the Crimea area. From them
it's heard until 1490's but I have no source which after checking give any
certain information regarding the Goths outside Spain between 610-650 AD.
There are datings yes but uncertain because one and the same event, if we
aren't to believe that same people faught, married and died over and over,
has at least two different datings given in the sources.(Different ways of
giving the year in question are taken into consideration as well as the four
ways there were in those days to count the year from the Great Flood).
Inger E
"Tim O'Neill" <sca...@bigpond.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3C9798BC...@bigpond.com...
Tom Lehman
Semite warfare re-enactors. :o) But, things seemed to have cooled down and
there hasn't been any bombings of this or the other history newsgroups
lately.:o)
I may have been thinking out loud, but, I do have some serious questions about
chronology, calendars, dates & the "Dark Ages".
I wonder what William Manchesters' thought would be on this subject?
Tom
Tim O'Neill
> because that was what I was thinking about
That makes more sense. But I notice you've ignored the second part of
my post:
> > > ... but all events from year 8 AD is documentated in at least
> > > two, possibly three-four independent sources written by contemporary
> > > Historians normally they either have been on the opposite side or have
> > > had the story told of such persons who participated themselves. So no
> > > missing elements in written documentation.
> >
> > Really? So what is the second (or third or fourth) piece of documentary
> > evidence supporting Jordanes account of 'Berig' and his crossing from
> > Scandinavia to the shore of the Baltic Sea?
There are a number of other *major* events in the early history of the
Goths which we only know anything about from one source - usually
Jordanes. But let's start with Berig's migration - what is the other
source (or sources) which document this ancient (and possibly partially
mythical or even entirely fabulous) event?
No need to reveal any of your personal research, or give away any
top secret information - just tell me what other source or sources
mention Berig and his migration. And please don't tell me the
information is on a hard-drive that you can't get access to. Or
that it's in a box under your house. Or that someone else forged
your original post.
Just name the source/s.
Very simple.
> > Looking forward to your detailed and well documented reply.
Still looking forward to that reply.
Tim O'Neill
Inger E
since I am no mind reader, or at least pretend not to be one ;-) I would
like you to write a few more words about your thoughts. Would you please?
Inger E
"Tom Lehman" <TLe...@Lor.Net> skrev i meddelandet
news:3C981506...@Lor.Net...
Inger E
I am sorry but having an ill daughter with fever even if she is 19 years old
made me tired yeasterday. I will try to answer your second question:
Yes Jordanes sources are known to me. All of them. Jordanes himself had one
big problem and that was the fact that he was a lousy Latin-reader.(I have
traced two possible origins for Jordanes himself. One which makes that part
more than understandable). This means that Jordanes sometimes when a
comprehension was made between a person's look, acting in the classic time
and a person or a group of person in Jordanes' sources' writer's time made
it easy for himself forgetting the comprehension with the impact on
Jordanes' Getica that Jordanes linked the classic person/group of persons
with a "contemporary" person/group of person's ancestor(-s).
With this said I will continue my answer. There are at least five sources
who talks about the movement from Scandinavia, not to the Baltic area but to
the area where the Goths had a merchandise-town according to the sources I
am aware of, in today's Poland between close to Visla(Weissel) river. Two of
the sources are contemporary and from 1st Century AD.
Those Goths weren't however the only group moving from Scandinavia due to
the fact that more children than usual were born between 150 BC and 100 AD
and that more children than usual came of age. That fact is mentioned in
several sources from 100 BC-550 AD.
One of this groups the Tjutas, Teutones in some sources(there are seven
different ways of spelling their name) moved before the Goths - if we aren't
to believe that they belonged to the same larger group of people identifing
themselves as Goths, but for the later assumption I haven't seen any hard
proof at all. The Teutones moved first from Tjust on today's border of
Ostergotland and Smaaland in Sweden to at least two merchandisetowns one
ruled by Estonians(Austi) and one on the same area where the Goths later
settled close to Wisla. After a large fight the Teutones moved via northern
Jutland over to the English channel area.
Up to this point no name can be proven for any of the Scandinavian groups
"kings"/war leader etc.
If you follow me there we can continue looking at the time when Jordanes say
that the two Gothic people were divided by a broken bridge. That incident
including different numbers of people and horses killed are mentioned in
Jordanes sources. I am sorry but I can't be more specific in this question
in an open group. Nor can I give you any quotations in an open group, but if
you can read Swedish and are willing not to write about the files for this
in an open group, than I can send you more information directly. I will not
send you all. Only a chapter or two from my manuscript.
Inger E
"Tim O'Neill" <sca...@bigpond.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:b9ebd984.02031...@posting.google.com...
Tim O'Neill
Inger E wrote:
> "Tim O'Neill" <sca...@bigpond.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:b9ebd984.02031...@posting.google.com...
>
> > There are a number of other *major* events in the early history of the
> > Goths which we only know anything about from one source - usually
> > Jordanes. But let's start with Berig's migration - what is the other
> > source (or sources) which document this ancient (and possibly partially
> > mythical or even entirely fabulous) event?
> Yes Jordanes sources are known to me. All of them.
I take you you're trying to say you *think* you have identified Jordanes'
sources, since they are either lost (Ablabius) or, at best, speculation.
Unless you've been lucky enough to find a MS of Jordanes complete
with his original bibliography and footnotes, of course.
What do you *believe* Jordanes sources to be?
> With this said I will continue my answer. There are at least five sources
> who talks about the movement from Scandinavia, not to the Baltic area but to
> the area where the Goths had a merchandise-town according to the sources I
> am aware of, in today's Poland between close to Visla(Weissel) river. Two of
> the sources are contemporary and from 1st Century AD.
These 'five' sources mention Berig?! That's amazing - can you quote them
directly? Why have so many historians of the Goths overlooked these
amazing, neglected sources?
> Those Goths weren't however the only group moving from Scandinavia due to
> the fact that more children than usual were born between 150 BC and 100 AD
> and that more children than usual came of age. That fact is mentioned in
> several sources from 100 BC-550 AD.
Again, this is remarkable. What are these sources? Census documents
written in runes on birch bark perhaps?
> One of this groups the Tjutas, Teutones in some sources(there are seven
> different ways of spelling their name) moved before the Goths - if we aren't
>
> to believe that they belonged to the same larger group of people identifing
> themselves as Goths, but for the later assumption I haven't seen any hard
> proof at all.
(Speechless silence)
[Other stuff snipped - let's keep this to the Goths for now]
> If you follow me there we can continue looking at the time when Jordanes say
>
> that the two Gothic people were divided by a broken bridge. That incident
> including different numbers of people and horses killed are mentioned in
> Jordanes sources.
Which sources exactly?
> I am sorry but I can't be more specific in this question
> in an open group.
Oh, God - here we go ...
> Nor can I give you any quotations in an open group,
I don't want quotations, just tell me which sources you're
talking about, with citations of where the relevant sections
are found. Unless you've uncovered hitherto unknown
ancient works they should be works well known to scholarship
already and fairly easy for me to track down.
So - sources and citations please.
> but if
> you can read Swedish and are willing not to write about the files for this
> in an open group, than I can send you more information directly. I will not
> send you all. Only a chapter or two from my manuscript.
I know several people who would be happy to translate any
relevant material for me. Ingemar Nordgren for example.
But there's no need to bother him - I don't need chapters from
your manuscript, just the names of the sources and citations of
the relevant sections. There should be no problem with relating
that basic information, whether it is on an 'open group' or not.
So - sources and citations please.
If you aren't prepared to share this information and discuss it,
why bother posting anything about it here at all?
Sources and citations please.
Looking forward to your substantive and well-supported
reply.
Tim O'Neill
Inger E
>
>
> Inger E wrote:
>
> > "Tim O'Neill" <sca...@bigpond.com> skrev i meddelandet
> > news:b9ebd984.02031...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > There are a number of other *major* events in the early history of the
> > > Goths which we only know anything about from one source - usually
> > > Jordanes. But let's start with Berig's migration - what is the other
> > > source (or sources) which document this ancient (and possibly
partially
> > > mythical or even entirely fabulous) event?
>
> > Yes Jordanes sources are known to me. All of them.
>
> I take you you're trying to say you *think* you have identified Jordanes'
> sources, since they are either lost (Ablabius) or, at best, speculation.
Ablabius isn't lost, his work still exist in two monestries I have been told
and also seen photocopies of(I will return to this later) one on an island
in Greece where only monks live and one in a monestry on the border between
Irac and Turkey.
The photocopies I have seen have the same text as exists in a Swedish 13th
Century source, mostly forgotten.... Forntida Svenska legender written by
Pater Stephanus of Skänninge(Östergötland) where he translated into Swedish
information given by early historians. The book still exists in one copy
privately owned in Linköping. I saw it once when my class and one of our
teachers were allowed to see it in 1960's. I have photocopies of parts of
it. In those copies special information regarding Konstantin the Great's
chapel in Arles and Konstantin the Great's mother and Ablabius himself is
given.
> Unless you've been lucky enough to find a MS of Jordanes complete
> with his original bibliography and footnotes, of course.
Jordanes have been lazy more than one should believe him to have been. Many
of the texts is word by word transcribed from other texts but Jordanes have
taken half a sentence there and the other half from the next more than once.
He have mixed three sources at least once using that method.....
>
> What do you *believe* Jordanes sources to be?
One of Jordanes oldest source re Alexander the Great(Oh have Jordanes made a
bad translation?!) is Diodorus. Part of the most interesting pieces comes
from some of the so called missing chapters.... anyhow they were found in
the same monestry in Greece I refered to earlier by two German Professors
who together made a translation into German and edited the text.
>
> > With this said I will continue my answer. There are at least five
sources
> > who talks about the movement from Scandinavia, not to the Baltic area
but to
> > the area where the Goths had a merchandise-town according to the
sources I
> > am aware of, in today's Poland between close to Visla(Weissel) river.
Two of
> > the sources are contemporary and from 1st Century AD.
>
> These 'five' sources mention Berig?! That's amazing - can you quote them
> directly?
As I told you No name of Gothic Kings before the Goths had crossed the
Baltic Sea can be confirmed in two independent sources.
>Why have so many historians of the Goths overlooked >these amazing,
neglected sources?
>
Many of the sources are never translated into English, most is translated
into German but before 1888 and rarely mentioned in anyway by scholars
since.Some have been translated from Arabian, Persian, Armenian and Kazar
sources but only to French and only by Scholars of Linguistic who might not
have understood the importance for Scholars of history. The simple fact is
if you never have heard of a source you will not go looking for sources in
other languages than you can read yourself. If you on the other hand have
access to a translated text of interest you might be able to learn the
language you need or at least have a chance to find a Prof. or a Ph.D. who
is specialist in that language who can help you check that and that chapter
in the original text. That's a method I have had to use when it comes to
languages I don't know. I have among my friends several Ph.D who have been
teaching their home language at University before coming to Sweden in late
1960's to late 1980's. All but one are good in Swedish, the one that isn't
has been working several years in England at an English museum and speaks
good English. For one of the text I wanted he actually had a book edited in
Ankara which were interesting on one page the English text on the other
Arabian text.
> > Those Goths weren't however the only group moving from Scandinavia due
to
> > the fact that more children than usual were born between 150 BC and 100
AD
> > and that more children than usual came of age. That fact is mentioned
in
> > several sources from 100 BC-550 AD.
>
> Again, this is remarkable. What are these sources?
Most of the old Historians have shorter or longer documentations about this.
I am more surprised that you missed it or have you believed that it isn't
there and than only read those works you have thought you needed for your
present studies? I don't know. I know I have read more than most. Have you
read Orosius own works for example and have you read Zosimus all works or
have you read Cassiodorus Variae? That's only three of many who gives
information, btw Orosius and Zosimus confirms each other more than once but
I guess we still have to believe them to be independent. You may take a look
in several other as well my list contains 225 sources I checked all written
before 800, 155 of them are written before 600AD.
Census documents
> written in runes on birch bark perhaps?
Why should it be? I didn't know that people in Asia minor and Greek used
that method.... :-)
>
> > One of this groups the Tjutas, Teutones in some sources(there are seven
> > different ways of spelling their name) moved before the Goths - if we
aren't
> >
> > to believe that they belonged to the same larger group of people
identifing
> > themselves as Goths, but for the later assumption I haven't seen any
hard
> > proof at all.
>
> (Speechless silence)
That's been up in University both here in Sweden and in Denmark. In Denmark
it was proven in a Dissertation not so many years ago.
>
> [Other stuff snipped - let's keep this to the Goths for now]
>
> > If you follow me there we can continue looking at the time when
Jordanes say
> >
> > that the two Gothic people were divided by a broken bridge. That
incident
> > including different numbers of people and horses killed are mentioned
in
> > Jordanes sources.
>
> Which sources exactly?
Start with reading an English translation of the works of the Historians I
mentioned above. You will if you find 19th Century translation almost always
find more information and where to look for texts.
>
> > I am sorry but I can't be more specific in this question
> > in an open group.
>
> Oh, God - here we go ...
>
> > Nor can I give you any quotations in an open group,
>
> I don't want quotations, just tell me which sources you're
> talking about, with citations of where the relevant sections
> are found. Unless you've uncovered hitherto unknown
> ancient works they should be works well known to scholarship
> already and fairly easy for me to track down.
>
> So - sources and citations please.
As I said before - If you can read Swedish and you give me your word not to
discuss it in an open discussiongroup, I am willing to send you one or two
chapters, not the complete manuscript, . That's my final answer otherwise
you have to wait until it's translated.
Inger E
Dick Wisan
>
>As I said before - If you can read Swedish and you give me your word not to
>discuss it in an open discussiongroup, I am willing to send you one or two
>chapters, not the complete manuscript, . That's my final answer otherwise
>you have to wait until it's translated.
Inger, this is dangerous. It is a principle of intelligence services
that _nothing_ a confidential source has given you may be made known in
exact detail, certainly not quoted verbatim, and under NO conditions
should the source be named. Even well-meaning people who promise not
to mention it are dangerous. The more people who know a secret the
sooner it will be compromised, either accidentally or maliciously.
To violate these principles can easily cause the death of your agents
and sources.
You should not post ANY of this material on so public a forum as this.
Concerned,
--
R. N. (Dick) Wisan Email: wis...@catskill.net
Snail: 37 Clinton St., Oneonta, NY 13820, USA
Just your opinion, please, Ma'am. No fax.
Paul J Gans
>iNGER----I haven't been participating for awhile, because of the ancient
>Semite warfare re-enactors. :o) But, things seemed to have cooled down and
>there hasn't been any bombings of this or the other history newsgroups
>lately.:o)
>I may have been thinking out loud, but, I do have some serious questions about
>chronology, calendars, dates & the "Dark Ages".
>I wonder what William Manchesters' thought would be on this subject?
Why William Manchester, of all people?
---- Paul J. Gans
Inger E
having had the experience twice that person in this groups without my
permission have used my working material I will not have it any other way.
Those who can promise not to do so may have material, the other have to
wait. There are more than 20 in these two groups alone who never ever would
dream of using my manuscripts in an open discussiongroup without my
permission. Those persons have and will continue to have information. When
we have discussed between each person and me what they think about it they
may ask my permission to use it.
On the other end there is a person in this group who have used my text word
by word once, that's one time to many.
Inger E
"Dick Wisan" <wis...@catskill.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:a7aan...@enews1.newsguy.com...
erilar
<sca...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> In other words, there is a great deal of documentary evidence
> regarding the Visigoths from 610-650 AD. What on earth
> are you talking about?
>
>
> > ... but all events from year 8 AD is documentated in at least
> > two, possibly three-four independent sources written by contemporary
> > Historians normally they either have been on the opposite side or have
> > had
> > the story told of such persons who participated themselves. So no
> > missing
> > elements in written documentation.
>
> Really? So what is the second (or third or fourth) piece of documentary
> evidence supporting Jordanes account of 'Berig' and his crossing from
> Scandinavia to the shore of the Baltic Sea?
>
> Looking forward to your detailed and well documented reply.
giggles 8-)
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
Germanic philologist, amateur medieval historian
Manny Olds
> On the other end there is a person in this group who have used my text word
> by word once, that's one time to many.
Word for word! Where did they publish it? _Journal of Irreproducible Results_?
_Skeptical Enquirer_? _National Lampoon_?
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"This isn't to say that scholars always have a consensus, far from it, but
generally speaking, when a theory is limited to one person, you sort of
have to ask why." -- J.S. Pereira
Michael Kuettner
Jordanes'
> > sources, since they are either lost (Ablabius) or, at best,
speculation.
>
> Ablabius isn't lost, his work still exist in two monestries I have
been told
> and also seen photocopies of(I will return to this later) one on an
island
> in Greece where only monks live and one in a monestry on the border
between
> Irac and Turkey.
>
In other words, you're talking out of your ass again, dimwit.
Give the names of the monasteries.
But you won't be able to do so, as always.
<snip>
> Pater Stephanus of Skänninge(Östergötland) where he translated into
Swedish
Still talking out of your ass ? Making up things again ?
>
> > Unless you've been lucky enough to find a MS of Jordanes complete
> > with his original bibliography and footnotes, of course.
>
> Jordanes have been lazy more than one should believe him to have been.
Many
> of the texts is word by word transcribed from other texts but Jordanes
have
> taken half a sentence there and the other half from the next more than
once.
> He have mixed three sources at least once using that method.....
>
And you have been able to read the sources when you're not able
to read plain English with your "Oxford course" ?
"Jordanes have been lazy" - you speak the language perfect !
Hint : Jordanes ist still singular.
> >
> > What do you *believe* Jordanes sources to be?
>
> One of Jordanes oldest source re Alexander the Great(Oh have Jordanes
made a
> bad translation?!) is Diodorus.
1) Jordanes is still singular
2) You seem to have read Diodorus like you read English.
IOW, you don't understand either.
> Part of the most interesting pieces comes
> from some of the so called missing chapters.... anyhow they were found
in
> the same monestry in Greece I refered to earlier by two German
Professors
> who together made a translation into German and edited the text.
>
You didn't refer to anything. Shove your two monasteries up your twat.
And what are the names of the German professors ?
> > These 'five' sources mention Berig?! That's amazing - can you quote
them
> > directly?
>
> As I told you No name of Gothic Kings before the Goths had crossed the
> Baltic Sea can be confirmed in two independent sources.
>
But you've opened your big stupid cake-hole and said the opposite.
> >Why have so many historians of the Goths overlooked >these amazing,
> neglected sources?
> >
>
> Many of the sources are never translated into English, most is
translated
> into German but before 1888 and rarely mentioned in anyway by scholars
> since.
<snip rest of bull-shit>
Give the German translations, fuckhead.
Your weaseling won't help you.
But I have my doubts that you can read German.
>Some have been translated from Arabian, Persian, Armenian and Kazar
>sources but only to French and only by Scholars of Linguistic who might
not
>have understood the importance for Scholars of history. The simple fact
is
>if you never have heard of a source you will not go looking for sources
in
>other languages than you can read yourself.
Thank you for explaining yourself.
Since you can't read anything which isn't in Swedish you make up your
sources.
>If you on the other hand have
>access to a translated text of interest you might be able to learn the
>language you need or at least have a chance to find a Prof. or a Ph.D.
who
>is specialist in that language who can help you check that and that
chapter
>in the original text. That's a method I have had to use when it comes
to
>languages I don't know.
That means every language for you.
> I have among my friends several Ph.D who have been
>teaching their home language at University before coming to Sweden in
late
>1960's to late 1980's.
It's a sad fact that you didn't learn anything from them.
> All but one are good in Swedish, the one that isn't
>has been working several years in England at an English museum and
speaks
>good English. For one of the text I wanted he actually had a book
edited in
>Ankara which were interesting on one page the English text on the other
>Arabian text.
It's your bad luck that most of us here are outside Sweden;
in the rest of the world dyslexic teachers who manage to get
everything about geography wrong aren't allowed to teach
geography.
In the rest of the world teachers have to visit an university,
little girl - instead of writing some fucking essays.
Get it through your pointy little head that saying
"Because I say so" isn't acknowledged as an argument
outside of Sweden.
And when one is asked for sources outside of Sweden
he gives them - or one shuts up.
So either give exact citations, moron - or keep your
cake-hole shut.
There's a third option for you :
If you don't want to do either, fuck off to the alt.history
or other alt.* groups.
Put up or piss off !
Michael Kuettner
PS : Now Ingwer will start her "Don't harrass me" routine
again and still won't give any cites.
As always.
--
Kitchen measuring utensils are alle marked in metric units, if they are
marked at all. - Kai Henningsen explains German cuisine
Inger E
"Manny Olds" <old...@pobox.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:a7arjb$k2h$1...@news1.Radix.Net...
> In soc.history.medieval Inger E <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote:
> > On the other end there is a person in this group who have used my text
word
> > by word once, that's one time to many.
>
> Word for word! Where did they publish it? _Journal of Irreproducible
Results_?
The person translated the text into English added one - One sentence and
published it in US. Anyhow what that person who I know reads this doesn't
knew and still don't know is that the chapter in question had been up in a
Swedish School and given to more than 60 students by a Ph.D. who is a friend
of mine.
Inger E
Inger E
once and for all - You have to do your own research - if you don't know the
name of any of those monestries than you never have read anything at all
about European Religious History, that's sad. Had you been a friend of mine
you would have had the information long ago. Since you aren't a friend of
mine and since you never will the way you act and have acted in the past -
that alone is one of the reasons why I never will let people I don't trust
have my manuscript. They may pay for the English book when it's translated.
Inger E
I
"Michael Kuettner" <mik...@eunet.at> skrev i meddelandet
news:z37m8.224$RG6....@nreader2.kpnqwest.net...
Renia
> Michael,
> once and for all - You have to do your own research - if you don't know the
> name of any of those monestries than you never have read anything at all
> about European Religious History, that's sad. Had you been a friend of mine
> you would have had the information long ago. Since you aren't a friend of
> mine and since you never will the way you act and have acted in the past -
> that alone is one of the reasons why I never will let people I don't trust
> have my manuscript. They may pay for the English book when it's translated.
Nobody is asking for your manuscript. Just the sources for the statements you
make.
Renia
Renia
> "Manny Olds" <old...@pobox.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:a7arjb$k2h$1...@news1.Radix.Net...
> > In soc.history.medieval Inger E <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote:
> > > On the other end there is a person in this group who have used my text
> word
> > > by word once, that's one time to many.
> >
> > Word for word! Where did they publish it? _Journal of Irreproducible
> Results_?
>
> The person translated the text into English added one - One sentence and
> published it in US.
Where in the US did they publish it?
> Anyhow what that person who I know reads this doesn't
> knew and still don't know is that the chapter in question had been up in a
> Swedish School and given to more than 60 students by a Ph.D. who is a friend
> of mine.
What has that got to do with anything? Except to suggest that the person who
translated the text into English and added a sentence could just have well have
got it from one of the 60 students or the PhD.
Renia
Tom Lehman
read Manchester and his friend Lester Thurow of MIT have some ideas about the
breakup of classical civilization and the Dark Ages.
In my own opinion there does seem to be some real gaps between roughly 800 AD and
1000 AD and some earlier and later gaps too.
Tom
Michael L. Siemon
wrote:
+ Have you ever read Manchester's "A World Lit Only By Fire"? From what
+ I've read Manchester and his friend Lester Thurow of MIT have some ideas
+ about the breakup of classical civilization and the Dark Ages.
Neither Manchester nor Thurow have _any_ substantial grounding in the
periods in question. Have they ever put their "ideas" to the test of
exposure to those who _do_ know something about them?
+ In my own opinion there does seem to be some real gaps between roughly
+ 800 AD and 1000 AD and some earlier and later gaps too.
Ummm, what is _your_ opinion based on? I'm not trying to be particularly
dismissive, but you"ve _got_ to come to cases, or inane generalities
like those above are going to get only dyspeptic (or snide) reactions.
There are a lot of seriously worthless "opinions" about the "Dark Ages"
or the transition(s) from classical to medieval civilizations. If there
is any specific topic you'd like to raise, go ahead -- you'll get some
very well-informed responses from this group (and other not-so-well-
informed responses; but with discrimination and good humor, you can
probably sort them out... :-))
Tony Jebson
> Paul---Have you ever read Manchester's "A World Lit Only By Fire"?
You misinterpreted his comment: "A World Lit ..." is *terrible*
and received scathing reviews, but I can't find any just at the
moment. I'm sure someone will be able to find some.
[snip]
> In my own opinion there does seem to be some real gaps
> between roughly 800 AD and 1000 AD and some earlier and
> later gaps too.
Opinion is irrelevant, you'll have to post some very compelling
evidence if you want any serious discussion of this topic -- it
has been discussed here many times.
[snip]
--- Tony Jebson
Paul J Gans
>Paul---Have you ever read Manchester's "A World Lit Only By Fire"? From what I've
>read Manchester and his friend Lester Thurow of MIT have some ideas about the
>breakup of classical civilization and the Dark Ages.
>In my own opinion there does seem to be some real gaps between roughly 800 AD and
>1000 AD and some earlier and later gaps too.
>Tom
Tom:
Please. I don't want to get into it. This group has had
enough flames already. But Manchester's book is famous
among medievalists as the most factually incorrect book
published about the Middle Ages in many years. You'd
be better off reading Barbara Tuchman, and she's not
got the best sources either.
I have not seen anyone who knew anything about medieval
history give any praise at all to Manchester's book. In
fact, some say it is so bad as to put his other books
under suspicion.
Pleae don't take my word for it. Check it out.
---- Paul J. Gans
PS: Here are some excerpts from a *favorable* review:
http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg060700.html
<start excerpt>
Well, I?ve been reading a wonderful book, A World Lit Only By Fire:
The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance by William Manchester. In it
I learned what I always knew, if you know what I mean. The average ?poor?
American today lives better than most kings a few centuries ago. Most
medieval monarchs were illiterate. They often died of everyday diseases.
Sanitation was, to use the clinical term, ?icky.?
Meanwhile a rich peasant lived a life that was worse than even the most
egregious child-welfare horror stories. Here is how Erasmus described
the average home of a prosperous peasant:
...?almost all the floors are of clay and rushes from the marshes,
so carelessly renewed that the foundation sometimes remains for
twenty years, harboring, there below, spittle and vomit and wine
of dogs and men, beer?remnants of fishes and other fish unnameable.
Hence, with the change of weather, a vapor exhales which in my
judgement is far from wholesome.
And that is how prosperous peasants lived. The poor folk lived
outside, often year-round. They lived in villages without names that did
not exist on maps. If they got lost a few miles from their home it was
possible they would never find it again. If they had rags for clothes
they were lucky. It was unimaginable that they would ever be clean, which
is why skin disease and festering sores (called ?Dershowitzes?) were nearly
universal ? as were lice, rats, and all sorts of stuff that can now
be found only under my own couch. Unsurprisingly, dentistry was not quite
the art it is today.
<end excerpt>
For the views of actual medievalists go to:
http://www.ukans.edu/~medieval/index.html
and put the word "Manchester" into the search box. You should
get about 200 hits.
Inger E
I have nothing against you but I do have a lot against Michael. Anyhow the
list of the exact historian; book or speech; chapter/s(in many times I have
written down two or more for the reader to compare); line is in itself a
list that is 18 pages long. If you Renia would like to have a single
chapter, you might not comprehend the Swedish text but I guess you could
find most out from a Swedish English dictionary on the other hand you would
have the sources for that specific chapter. But still I will not send it to
anyone if the person I send it to doesn't promise not to discuss the chapter
in an OPEN discussiongroup.
Inger E
"Renia" <ren...@ntlworld.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3C992893...@ntlworld.com...
Inger E
from 695 AD - 1000 AD there are a lot of sources corresponding in events
when, who and where but never why and who was to be blamed....
Which specific area in England or elsewhere don't you have knowledge of any
Annals or other sources written between 800-1000 AD?
Inger E
"Tom Lehman" <TLe...@Lor.Net> skrev i meddelandet
news:3C994381...@Lor.Net...
Renia
All they want is the source or sources for some of the statements you make. By
this, they mean "Such-and-such a document, written by So-and-so, in the year of
dot A.D. in the library or monastery or private house of Somewhere". None of
this involves you giving away your own material, either privately or in a
newsgroup.
Like you have said, if someone is unaware of a source, they can't go and look
for it, and they won't be able to conduct their own research. You have obliquely
mentioned several sources, without saying what they are or where they are to be
found.
Renia
Inger E
we have been over this a number of times, not you and me but others and me,
over the years. I have sent the groups a long list containg the most
interesting sources. I will not do that again. As I wrote the other day - if
the person who is interested in this start by reading
Diodorus, Zosimus, Ammanianus Marcellinus, Orosius(the most interesting book
is edited in English as Seven books against Pagans) and Cassiodorus Variae
the person who read and write down information given and sentense used will
find more than 50% of the information Jordanes gives.
One other interesting book to be read is:
Moses Khorenatsí:, History of the Armenians,ed. transl. RW Thomson, London
1978
What you need to do is read all works of the Historians mentioned above -
you have to write down year by year, sometimes month by month all events,
names etc. It helps if you are educated programmer in order to "write" a
smart computerprogram for all the facts you will have to sort in tables.
I understand that it's difficult for persons not used to computers to hold
every single line of interest in mind when valuating all information- Still,
before you have read all of them and sorted the information it's hard to
find the history behind an event. That's why it's almost impossible without
sending one or two chapters to send you quotations. There are so many
intersting quotations, some I have used some not, that the most interesting
quotations I have written down took 88 pages in Times New Roman 10 last time
I took out the quotations I have collected for the interesting years from
262-367 AD alone.....
Inger E
"Renia" <ren...@ntlworld.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3C99A715...@ntlworld.com...
Tim O'Neill
Inger E wrote:
> "Tim O'Neill" <sca...@bigpond.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:3C9856F1...@bigpond.com...
>
> Ablabius isn't lost, his work still exist in two monestries I have been told
> and also seen photocopies of(I will return to this later) one on an island
> in Greece where only monks live and one in a monestry on the border between
> Irac and Turkey.
This news is amazing. How recently were these manuscripts discovered?
Which scholars are working on editing them or reporting on them and
when can we expect to see information published? Have any papers on
this remarkable discovery been given at any academic conferences yet?
If so, by whom?
I'm a little surprised that I've heard nothing about this breakthrough
discovery, as it's the biggest thing to happen in early medieval studies
for decades. I take it these manuscripts have only been discovered
in recent months or weeks, otherwise the medieval academic world
would be buzzing with the news already.
> The photocopies I have seen have the same text as exists in a Swedish 13th
> Century source, mostly forgotten.... Forntida Svenska legender written by
> Pater Stephanus of Skänninge(Östergötland) where he translated into Swedish
> information given by early historians. The book still exists in one copy
> privately owned in Linköping. I saw it once when my class and one of our
> teachers were allowed to see it in 1960's. I have photocopies of parts of
> it. In those copies special information regarding Konstantin the Great's
> chapel in Arles and Konstantin the Great's mother and Ablabius himself is
> given.
Hang on - so a version of Ablabius' lost text has been known since the 1960s?!
How can this be? Why are there hundreds of scholars specialising in Gothic
studies who are completely unaware of this work? If photocopies of it are
circulating to students and amateurs like yourself, why aren't world renowned
academics who have devoted their careers to the study of this subject aware
of it?
Something doesn't quite add up here. Please explain.
> > Unless you've been lucky enough to find a MS of Jordanes complete
> > with his original bibliography and footnotes, of course.
>
> Jordanes have been lazy more than one should believe him to have been. Many
> of the texts is word by word transcribed from other texts but Jordanes have
> taken half a sentence there and the other half from the next more than once.
> He have mixed three sources at least once using that method.....
Well, one way to determine Jordanes' sources is to take his word for it,
as he often refers to the source of his information in his text. Here's
a list of authors he refers to specifically, with chapter references:
Orosius (4,121,58)
Livy (10 )
Strabo (12)
Tacitus (13 )
Dio Chrysostom (14,40, 58,65)
Ptolemy (16,19)
Pomponius Mela (16)
Ablabius (28,82,117)
Josephus (29)
Pompeius Trogus (61)
Symmachus (83,88)
Dionysius (104)
Deuxippus (113)
Priscus (123, 178, 183, 222, 254, 255)
Any other supposed sources are, by neccesity, hypothetical.
> > These 'five' sources mention Berig?! That's amazing - can you quote them
> > directly?
>
> As I told you No name of Gothic Kings before the Goths had crossed the
> Baltic Sea can be confirmed in two independent sources.
So, in other words, we *don't* have any other sources that confirms the
story of Berig as told in Jordanes at all. That's what I thought.
> > > Those Goths weren't however the only group moving from Scandinavia due
> to
> > > the fact that more children than usual were born between 150 BC and 100
> AD
> > > and that more children than usual came of age. That fact is mentioned
> in
> > > several sources from 100 BC-550 AD.
> >
> > Again, this is remarkable. What are these sources?
> Most of the old Historians have shorter or longer documentations about this.
> I am more surprised that you missed it or have you believed that it isn't
> there and than only read those works you have thought you needed for your
> present studies? I don't know. I know I have read more than most. Have you
> read Orosius own works for example and have you read Zosimus all works or
> have you read Cassiodorus Variae? That's only three of many who gives
> information, btw Orosius and Zosimus confirms each other more than once but
> I guess we still have to believe them to be independent. You may take a look
> in several other as well my list contains 225 sources I checked all written
> before 800, 155 of them are written before 600AD.
I suspect I know many of the passages you're talking about, but
what I'm questioning is the way you are stating this stuff as fact.
> > Census documents
> > written in runes on birch bark perhaps?
>
> Why should it be? I didn't know that people in Asia minor and Greek used
> that method.... :-)
Historians dealing with fragmentary sources which are often tainted
by legend and are frequently rather garbled tend to use more judicious
language - 'MAY have been', 'it can be ARGUED that', 'possibly'
etc. What I'm questioning is the way you consistently present your
hypotheses as though they are solid facts. They aren't - they're
conjecture, just as anyone's hypotheses in this field have to be
conjecture. You undermine your own credibility by doing this.
> > > I am sorry but I can't be more specific in this question
> > > in an open group.
> >
> > Oh, God - here we go ...
> >
> > > Nor can I give you any quotations in an open group,
> >
> > I don't want quotations, just tell me which sources you're
> > talking about, with citations of where the relevant sections
> > are found. Unless you've uncovered hitherto unknown
> > ancient works they should be works well known to scholarship
> > already and fairly easy for me to track down.
> >
> > So - sources and citations please.
>
> As I said before - If you can read Swedish and you give me your word not to
> discuss it in an open discussiongroup, I am willing to send you one or two
> chapters, not the complete manuscript, . That's my final answer otherwise
> you have to wait until it's translated.
No-one has asked you for any chapters of your work. I don't want
them at all, but thanks for the offer anyway. Once again you've posted
to this **DISCUSSION** group and alluded to certain amazing information.
When asked to substantiate your claim, you've hidden behind this 'I
can't discuss this in an open group' stuff, and alleged that someone from
SHM has once stolen material from you. So, a few questions:
(i) Who stole this material and where did they publish it? It would be
easier for people to take this seriously if you substantiated this allegation,
otherwise people could be forgiven for suspecting you're making this
whole thing up to avoid exposing your theories to informed criticism
(ii) If you don't intend to discuss this stuff, why post on it in the first
place?
(iii) Why does Inger E. Johannson B.A. know of the last MSS of the
lost work of Ablabius, while people like Herwig Wolfram remain
ignorant of them?
I'm very interested in your answers to all of these questions.
Tim O'Neill
Tim O'Neill
Inger E wrote:
> Renia,
> we have been over this a number of times, not you and me but others and me,
> over the years.
Indeed. Over and over and over and over and over etc ...
> What you need to do is read all works of the Historians mentioned above -
> you have to write down year by year, sometimes month by month all events,
> names etc. It helps if you are educated programmer in order to "write" a
> smart computerprogram for all the facts you will have to sort in tables.
> I understand that it's difficult for persons not used to computers to hold
> every single line of interest in mind when valuating all information- Still,
> before you have read all of them and sorted the information it's hard to
> find the history behind an event. That's why it's almost impossible without
> sending one or two chapters to send you quotations. There are so many
> intersting quotations, some I have used some not, that the most interesting
> quotations I have written down took 88 pages in Times New Roman 10 last time
> I took out the quotations I have collected for the interesting years from
> 262-367 AD alone.....
Fine. So let's save you all that work and spare you the risk of evil
people stealing your material and retiring to the Caribbean on the
proceeds thereof. You said there were five sources which related
the migration of Berig and the Goths from Scandinavia. Since then
you've said none of these sources actually mention Berig. Okay then,
forget about all the other sources and quotes from your 88 pages of
closely typed text - just quote these five sources that mention the
Gothic migration. Or, if that's too much trouble, just cite what the
sources are and where the relevant passages are in them.
Just those five sources.
That's all.
Not two chapters from your book. Not 88 pages of quotes.
Not whole texts.
Just five quotes or five citations.
That's all.
Is that so hard?
Tim O'Neill
Inger E
as long as you haven't taken your time studying Prime sources from 475BC-600
AD you aren't qualified to judge what can be found by any serious scholar
who read the sources refered to below and several times before. In the past
I even been kind enough to give you exact chapter and line and you still
haven't taken yourself time to study the sources. You aren't a scholar if
you can't go for the sources. In almost every History article edited the
sources are presented in the same way as I do here. You rarely see long
quotations except in Dissertations,
but then again since you aren't a scholar of History who are you to know and
understand that?
Inger E
"Tim O'Neill" <sca...@bigpond.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3C99CBA6...@bigpond.com...
Inger E
Inger E
you missed several of Jordanes sources or you have had a bad transcript of
the texts.
If you are interested in the sources I used the only way for you or anyone
to have them is to read my chapters in the manuscript. That's the way it is.
If you aren't interested in my text you are the one who better stop acting
like a fool!
The fact that you miss/missed a lot of information given in elderly sources
doesn't say that the scholars of the 18th-19th Century missed them - they
knew perfectly well where to look when it comes to Prime sources used by
Jordanes as well as Prime sources confirming Jordanes's sources and Jordanes
himself.
Good Night Tim see you when you grown up.
Inger E
"Tim O'Neill" <sca...@bigpond.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3C99C977...@bigpond.com...
Michael Kuettner
Inger E <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote in message
news:58km8.26578$n4.52...@newsc.telia.net...
<nothing>
In other words, you've been talking out of your ass again and
can't give 5 sources.
Nothing new here.
f'ups set.
Michael Kuettner
Michael Kuettner
Inger E <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote in message
news:idkm8.26580$n4.52...@newsc.telia.net...
> Tim,
> you missed several of Jordanes sources or you have had a bad
transcript of
> the texts.
>
> If you are interested in the sources I used the only way for you or
anyone
> to have them is to read my chapters in the manuscript. That's the way
it is.
> If you aren't interested in my text you are the one who better stop
acting
> like a fool!
Nobody is interested in your fucking manuscript.
You aren't able to back up your weird phantasies with sources.
Business as usual.
And learn to trim posts, you moron.
Gilmore, Phyllis
Renia <ren...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Inger E wrote:
>
> >
> > The person translated the text into English added one - One sentence and
> > published it in US.
>
> Where in the US did they publish it?
>
> > Anyhow what that person who I know reads this doesn't
> > knew and still don't know is that the chapter in question had been up in a
> > Swedish School and given to more than 60 students by a Ph.D. who is a
> > friend
> > of mine.
>
> What has that got to do with anything? Except to suggest that the person who
> translated the text into English and added a sentence could just have well
> have
> got it from one of the 60 students or the PhD.
Actually, I can't imagine any publisher would publish any of IE's text
without extensive substantive and copy editing. And no reputable
journal would likely publish it after the peer review results came in.
Adding just one sentence wouldn't help.
Phyllis
Inger E
You are so wrong, and so unpolite I find it hard to understand where you are
coming from......
You might not like my writing, but no what you aren't all US editors are
you?
Inger E
"Gilmore, Phyllis" <gil...@dcmail1.rand.org> skrev i meddelandet
news:gilmore-EBE3DF...@lumberjack.rand.org...
Brian M. Scott
<gil...@dcmail1.rand.org> wrote:
[...]
>Actually, I can't imagine any publisher would publish any of IE's text
>without extensive substantive and copy editing.
Oh, I don't know: what about a collection of humorously mangled
English?
[...]
Brian
Emir
(Brian M. Scott) wrote:
It's almost even named after her: http://www.engrish.com
Emir
Tim O'Neill
Inger E wrote:
> Tim,
> as long as you haven't taken your time studying Prime sources from 475BC-600
> AD you aren't qualified to judge what can be found by any serious scholar
> who read the sources refered to below and several times before.
>
What are you talking about? In a previous post you acknowledged that I had
read more of this primary material than most and offered to send me relevant
chapters from your research, which presumably would require a reasonable
knowledge of that material to use.
But when I say I'm not interested in reading those chapters for now and
simply ask for proper scholarly citations, with relevant chapter, section
and/or line numbers, for the five sources you allege document the migration
of the Goths from Scandinavia, you suddenly declare that I *haven't* read
the relevant primary material after all and so am not worth responding to.
Even if this is true, what is stopping you from giving the citations? You've
said there are five sources relevant to the migration of the Goths. I've
asked you what they are. You've failed, or refused, to answer that
question.
Why?
> In the past
> I even been kind enough to give you exact chapter and line and you still
> haven't taken yourself time to study the sources.
>
In all the years I've been reading this ng I don't recall you EVER backing
up your claims in this manner. But maybe I missed those posts. Anyway,
that's irrelevant now - please just cite the five sources you've mentioned.
Just those five sources. Please.
> You aren't a scholar if
> you can't go for the sources.
>
If you don't tell me precisely what these five sources are and where the
relevant passages in them can be found I wouldn't need to be a scholar
to find them, I'd need to be a psychic.
What are the five sources and the relevant citations? Please
tell me. How on earth can I find them if you don't? You've claimed
that you identified five sources which refer to the migration of the Goths
from Scandinavia. Fine - so which five sources are you talking about
and what passages do you feel are relevant?
What are the five sources?
> In almost every History article edited the
> sources are presented in the same way as I do here. You rarely see long
> quotations except in Dissertations,
>
Okay, then don't give any quotes. Just name the five sources and cite
where in them the relevant passages can be found. Five titles, and five
chapter + section/line references. That's all.
It's that simple.
What are the five sources? In what chapters etc can the relevant passages
be found. There's no need for quotes, long or otherwise, just the names
of the sources and citation of the relevant sections.
What are they?
> but then again since you aren't a scholar of History who are you to know and
> understand that?
>
[no comment]
Looking forward to you stating precisely what these five sources are and
where in them the relevant passages can be found. No quotes. No
chpaters from your book. Just five simple citations.
Why can't you do this?
Tim O'Neill
Tim O'Neill
Inger E wrote:
> Tim,
> you missed several of Jordanes sources or you have had a bad transcript of
> the texts.
You'd better tell that to James J. O'Donnell, Professor of Classic Studies
at the University of Pennsylvania. That list of sources cited directly from his
article on Jordanes sources 'The Aims of Jordanes' *Historia* 31(1982)
223-240. But he's only a professor and scholar of worldwide renown,
so I'm sure he could do with the guidance of Inger E Johannson B.A.
Maybe you could tell him about those MSS of Ablabius that you've
uncovered, I'm sure he'd be astounded. I'll give you his e-mail address
if you like.
> If you are interested in the sources I used the only way for you or anyone
> to have them is to read my chapters in the manuscript. That's the way it is.
> If you aren't interested in my text you are the one who better stop acting
> like a fool!
I notice you've avoided my questions about why the academic world is
blissfully unaware of these remarkable MSS of Ablabius.
> Good Night Tim see you when you grown up.
Before you go to bed, O wise and mature one, could you explain why
no scholar of Jordanes or Gothic studies seems to be aware of these
MSS of Ablabius? You've brought this astounding fact to the attention
of relevant academics surely? How did they re-act? Why on earth
aren't these ground-breaking and revolutionary documents being
studied, research and editied?
Please reply.
Tim O'Neill
Renia
> Renia,
> we have been over this a number of times, not you and me but others and me,
> over the years. I have sent the groups a long list containg the most
> interesting sources.
Nobody wants a long list of interesting sources. This present thread asks you
only to name the 5 sources you referred to earlier.
> I will not do that again. As I wrote the other day - if
> the person who is interested in this start by reading
> Diodorus, Zosimus, Ammanianus Marcellinus, Orosius(the most interesting book
> is edited in English as Seven books against Pagans) and Cassiodorus Variae
> the person who read and write down information given and sentense used will
> find more than 50% of the information Jordanes gives.
> One other interesting book to be read is:
> Moses Khorenatsí:, History of the Armenians,ed. transl. RW Thomson, London
> 1978
I think it's primary sources they're after, not secondary sources.
>
>
> What you need to do is read all works of the Historians mentioned above -
> you have to write down year by year, sometimes month by month all events,
> names etc. It helps if you are educated programmer in order to "write" a
> smart computerprogram for all the facts you will have to sort in tables.
You do not need to be an educated programmer to do this. All you need is an
Excel or similar database facility.
>
> I understand that it's difficult for persons not used to computers to hold
> every single line of interest in mind when valuating all information- Still,
> before you have read all of them and sorted the information it's hard to
> find the history behind an event. That's why it's almost impossible without
> sending one or two chapters to send you quotations. There are so many
> intersting quotations, some I have used some not, that the most interesting
> quotations I have written down took 88 pages in Times New Roman 10 last time
> I took out the quotations I have collected for the interesting years from
> 262-367 AD alone.....
88 pages of quotes? What about critical comment and analysis? Is your idea of
historical methodology just to bash out page after page of quotes without
analysing it?
Renia
Renia
you are talking about.
Renia
Renia
> Tim,
> as long as you haven't taken your time studying Prime sources from 475BC-600
> AD you aren't qualified to judge what can be found by any serious scholar
> who read the sources refered to below and several times before. In the past
> I even been kind enough to give you exact chapter and line and you still
> haven't taken yourself time to study the sources. You aren't a scholar if
> you can't go for the sources. In almost every History article edited the
> sources are presented in the same way as I do here. You rarely see long
> quotations except in Dissertations,
> but then again since you aren't a scholar of History who are you to know and
> understand that?
This has nothing to do with it. You don't have the 5 sources, do you? You're all
talk. Nay, you're all quotations.
Renia
Renia
and don't know what
you are talking about.
Renia
Inger E wrote:
> > > got it from one of the 60 students or tX-Mozilla-Status: 0009ally, I can't imagine any publisher would publish any of IE's text
Renia
> Tim,
> as long as you haven't taken your time studying Prime sources from 475BC-600
> AD you aren't qualified to judge what can be found by any serious scholar
> who read the sources refered to below and several times before. In the past
> I even been kind enough to give you exact chapter and line and you still
> haven't taken yourself time to study the sources. You aren't a scholar if
> you can't go for the sources. In almost every History article edited the
> sources are presented in the same way as I do here. You rarely see long
> quotations except in Dissertations,
> but then again since you aren't a scholar of History who are you to know and
> understand that?
This has nothing to do with it. You don't have the 5
sources, do you? You're all
talk. Nay, you're all quotations.
Renia
>
>
> >X-Mozilla-Status: 0009
Renia
> Renia,
> we have been over this a number of times, not you and me but others and me,
> over the years. I have sent the groups a long list containg the most
> interesting sources.
Nobody wants a long list of interesting sources. This
present thread asks you
only to name the 5 sources you referred to earlier.
> I will not do that again. As I wrote the other day - if
> the person who is interested in this start by reading
> Diodorus, Zosimus, Ammanianus Marcellinus, Orosius(the most interesting book
> is edited in English as Seven books against Pagans) and Cassiodorus Variae
> the person who read and write down information given and sentense used will
> find more than 50% of the information Jordanes gives.
> One other interesting book to be read is:
> Moses Khorenatsí:, History of the Armenians,ed. transl. RW Thomson, London
> 1978
I think it's primary sources they're after, not secondary
sources.
>
>
> What you need to do is read all works of the Historians mentioned above -
> you have to write down year by year, sometimes month by month all events,
> names etc. It helps if you are educated programmer in order to "write" a
> smart computerprogram for all the facts you will have to sort in tables.
You do not need to be an educated programmer to do this. All
you need is an
Excel or similar database facility.
>
> I understand that it's difficult for persons not used to computers to hold
> every single line of interest in mind when valuating all information- Still,
> before you have read all of them and sorted the information it's hard to
> find the history behind an event. That's why it's almost impossible without
> sending one or two chapters to send you quotations. There are so many
> intersting quotations, some I have used some not, that the most interesting
> quotations I have written down took 88 pages in Times New Roman 10 last time
> I took out the quotations I have collected for the interesting years from
> 262-367 AD alone.....
88 pages of quotes? What about critical comment and
analysis? Is your idea of
historical methodology just to bash out page after page of
quotes without
analysing it?
Renia
>
>
>X-Mozilla-Status: 0009g for your manuscript. Just the sources for the
> statements
> > > you
> > > > make.
> > > >
> >
Alex
> Inger E <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote in message
> news:idkm8.26580$n4.52...@newsc.telia.net...
> > Tim,
> > you missed several of Jordanes sources or you have had a bad
> transcript of
> > the texts.
> >
> > If you are interested in the sources I used the only way for you or
> anyone
> > to have them is to read my chapters in the manuscript. That's the way
> it is.
> > If you aren't interested in my text you are the one who better stop
> acting
> > like a fool!
>
> Nobody is interested in your fucking manuscript.
[coughing modestly]
I'm interested in this manuscript: it promises to be the funniest
reading imaginable (both by content and style).
> You aren't able to back up your weird phantasies with sources.
They are beautiful as they are. Facts will spoil them.
> Business as usual.
Wouldn't it be nicer to say that she is "consistent"?
> And learn to trim posts, you moron.
>
With a great saddness, I must say that your last statement is mutually,
contradicting: being what she is, how can she learn to perform operation
of THAT complexity?
A side note: I do admire Tim's patience and (excessive) tact.
David Debono
wrote:
All you need is a basic understanding of current (read less than4 year
old) database methods.......
David D.
The Mediaeval Combat Society
The Historical Reenactment Web Site
http://www.montacute.net/histrenact/welcome.htm
Renia
Yes, anyone who thinks you need to be a highly-educated computer programmer in order to make a list of
sources can have little or no concept of post-trimming.
>
> A side note: I do admire Tim's patience and (excessive) tact.
Indeedy.
Renia
Heather Rose Jones
>
> Phyllis,
> You are so wrong, and so unpolite I find it hard to understand where you are
> coming from......
> You might not like my writing, but no what you aren't all US editors are
> you?
I've done professional editing for a US academic publisher and I concur
with Phyllis's opinion.
Heather
--
*********
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*********
Inger E
you are so right. All anyone would need in order to find most information
needed re old Medieval texts certainly is understanding of currect
database-methods including of course how to write a proper search-"line" in
order to find the information you want to have.
Of course not all texts are edited in modern(unfortunatly) editions on the
net. Thus it's important also to be able to go to a Library and ask for the
sources you need. All Libraries in this world(or almost all) work together
and can help you get at least a Latin or Greek version or a translation into
English, German or French of most Historians work.
Inger E
"David Debono" <david....@montacute.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:dfsk9u0e7qgof46if...@4ax.com...
Inger E
that's the problem: Most of you don't seem to understand that a quotation's
value is reduced if you don't give the background compare the text quoted
with other sources and give the full - unfortunatly LONG-LONG - list.
I understand that many of you lean to other Scholar's works instead of
taking the time looking into the Prime sources, valuating each information
given and such. I understand that most Scholars who do their studies aminly
form other Scholar's work only looking into the sources they have mentioned,
to this due to lack of time and/or the simple fact that you aren't aware of
other sources or that you believe the other sources to have been valued by
other Scholars and thus not mentioned by the existing Paradigma's most
refered Scholars. I can't say that I approve or like that way of doing
research and study old texts, but I can understand why it is that way.
All I ask for is for you to understand that such an approach isn't enough
for me. As a Positivist-Holist I need much more and thus some of you try to
make fun of me because you aren't raced that way by your tutors.
Inger E
"Renia" <ren...@ntlworld.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3C9A60F8...@ntlworld.com...
Inger E
this tread with the five sources I mentioned are a long list if you have to
see the tread..... so a long list can't be avoided. Since I also do believe
that important information regarding the persons who wrote the text and or
important information of events in the past re. the persons mentioned in for
example a quotation must be included if their impact on events mentioned in
the text are of importance to the valuation of the text.
I give you one example. I am sorry but I don't have the first part of 4th
Century inside my old computer[only 1,2 GB computer and that's not
enough.... :-)]
thus my example is from the year 376-377:
this is sources included chapters I refer to for one part of the Roman
border during those years Gothic Mosaic:
Ammianus Marcellinus 31.4 -31.11
Ammianus Marcellinus 31:15
Ammianus Marcellinus 31:16
Ammianus Marcellinus 31:3
Ammianus Marcellinus 31:3
Chronica Gallica, MGH AA,1892, 1:2
Eunapius 480-481
Eunapius, Lives of the Sophists, E 480f
Jordanes, Getica XXVI,134f
Orosius 7:33
Orosius I:2
Zosimus 4:17-18
Zosimus 4:20
Zosimus 4:22
Zosimus 4:23
Zosimus 4:24f
Zosimus 4:26
For the valuation of those books, their writers and the events I present in
the Gothic Mosaic I have had to compare the texts with 40 different(observe
not same writers) sources written before 550 AD. If you want the information
of which line and chapter I have compared with which other source chapter
and line, you will have to wait. That's classified material I only have
given to two Scholars appart from the two Scholars of History who have
checked my sources and my conclusions.
Inger E
"Renia" <ren...@ntlworld.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3C9A5D4C...@ntlworld.com...
Inger E
I do have the sources. For two of them look into an other answer to a mail
of yours in the groups.
Inger E
"Renia" <ren...@ntlworld.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3C9A5D86...@ntlworld.com...
David Debono
<inger_e....@telia.com> wrote:
>David,
>you are so right. All anyone would need in order to find most information
>needed re old Medieval texts certainly is understanding of currect
>database-methods including of course how to write a proper search-"line" in
>order to find the information you want to have.
At least we agree on that then. and as such, especially with your
"extensive" knowledge of computer technology a simple push of a
button, written by yourself of course, would provide the five simple
quotes of sources to back up your statements. Is it PHP and apache
that you use? just out of interest?
<rest snipped as being of no point to the discussion>
Inger E
if you used a search motor for databases back in 1980's you might as well
have used "my" program. Anyhow I never again been so well paid for four
hours work..... at that time 5000 SKR was worth 500 USD....
Inger E
"David Debono" <david....@montacute.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:4h5m9ucepdrfr9m42...@4ax.com...
David Debono
We obviously have different memories of databases in the 1980's. When
*I* used them and wrote them they were capable of returning a simple
list of five sources of information should I wish them to do so.
"Your" programme, then and now, is obviously incapable of such a feat
and seems to have not been bug-fixed in the intervening twenty or so
years.
I suggest that your employer of the time should be asking for a
refund?
By that way what are the sources?
Not that I am at all interested in the period in question but I am
interested in your ability to prove your credentials so that, should
there ever be anything remotely interesting in what you say, I might
think it worth following up.
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:48:40 GMT, "Inger E"
Inger E
between 1980 to the Dec.1981 I was working with 125 databases here in
Gothenburg. I know perfectly well what I was doing, I still have some of my
material left.
I don't know which way you had access to databases in 1980's, but I do agree
that most databases in 1980's wasn't worth mentioning at all.
I was employed to helped two companies to start own databases from scratch
in 1980's. In those cases I didn't do the programming but I ordered every
single change in the program that I thought necessary in order for the bases
to be easily used by their normal personal. What I did was drwoing the lines
of what's to be done in every step of the program and in the cases the
Programmer didn't understand my schedules I gave him(it was a he) the
correct Cobol line for the step. I also wrote a special program in order to
easily have all information transformed from a very primitive manuell system
over to the new systems.
I never ever used D-base or anything like it. I never understood why one
have to do things the hard way when it's easier to have a quick access to
information with other ways.
Inger E
"David Debono" <david....@montacute.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:7e9m9u0e1fljs1651...@4ax.com...
David Debono
<inger_e....@telia.com> wrote:
>David,
>between 1980 to the Dec.1981 I was working with 125 databases here in
>Gothenburg. I know perfectly well what I was doing, I still have some of my
>material left.
>
>I don't know which way you had access to databases in 1980's, but I do agree
>that most databases in 1980's wasn't worth mentioning at all.
>
>I was employed to helped two companies to start own databases from scratch
>in 1980's. In those cases I didn't do the programming but I ordered every
>single change in the program that I thought necessary in order for the bases
>to be easily used by their normal personal. What I did was drwoing the lines
>of what's to be done in every step of the program and in the cases the
>Programmer didn't understand my schedules I gave him(it was a he) the
>correct Cobol line for the step. I also wrote a special program in order to
>easily have all information transformed from a very primitive manuell system
>over to the new systems.
So you had just over a years worth of experience administering real
database programmers twenty two years ago. Okay nice to put that one
to bed then.
>I never ever used D-base or anything like it. I never understood why one
>have to do things the hard way when it's easier to have a quick access to
>information with other ways.
But still too hard to come up with five simple sources to substantiate
your current claim to fame. Come on Inger.... put up or shut up
please.
>
>Inger E
Inger E
systems and no not twenty years ago either.... you doesn't understand do you
I started with this in 1970, I have been working with various titles but
until 1987 except for the period 1983(my daughter was born)-1985 I have been
working with this one way or an other halftime or fulltime. I bet you one
thing you don't want to see my papers from 1970's I had two jobs working a
total of 150 % of an average persons hours + studying half-speed at the
university + I was active in the Liberal Party here in Western Sweden.
Boyfriends back than? Well my boyfriend worked fulltime and studied
fulltime as well. It wasn't he who I married and divorced.news:43dm9u83iqrjnbuu9...@4ax.com...
Mike Adams
c.1750..
There is an email group about the Goths, so someone might know more.
Mike
aka Morgoth
Inger E wrote:
> Tim,
> I wasn't talking about the Visigoths, I should have written Ostrogoths
> because that was what I was thinking about - when the Visigoths ended up in
> Spain their contacts up North faded away, when the Ostrogoths lost their
> Italian territory there still was Ostrogoths in the Crimea area. From them
> it's heard until 1490's but I have no source which after checking give any
> certain information regarding the Goths outside Spain between 610-650 AD.
> There are datings yes but uncertain because one and the same event, if we
> aren't to believe that same people faught, married and died over and over,
> has at least two different datings given in the sources.(Different ways of
> giving the year in question are taken into consideration as well as the four
> ways there were in those days to count the year from the Great Flood).
>
> Inger E
Mike Adams
Any sources of electronic means? I live in Alaska, and am about as far from
Greece as you can get without being off planet. But I have internet access, and
a printer..
But where do I find internet sources of documents to look at and learn.
Mike
aka Morgoth
Inger E wrote:
> Tim,
> you missed several of Jordanes sources or you have had a bad transcript of
> the texts.
>
> If you are interested in the sources I used the only way for you or anyone
> to have them is to read my chapters in the manuscript. That's the way it is.
> If you aren't interested in my text you are the one who better stop acting
> like a fool!
>
> The fact that you miss/missed a lot of information given in elderly sources
> doesn't say that the scholars of the 18th-19th Century missed them - they
> knew perfectly well where to look when it comes to Prime sources used by
> Jordanes as well as Prime sources confirming Jordanes's sources and Jordanes
> himself.
>
> Good Night Tim see you when you grown up.
>
> Inger E
>
> "Tim O'Neill" <sca...@bigpond.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:3C99C977...@bigpond.com...
> >
> >
> > Inger E wrote:
> >
> > > "Tim O'Neill" <sca...@bigpond.com> skrev i meddelandet
> > > news:3C9856F1...@bigpond.com...
> > >
> > > Ablabius isn't lost, his work still exist in two monestries I have been
> told
> > > and also seen photocopies of(I will return to this later) one on an
> island
> > > in Greece where only monks live and one in a monestry on the border
> between
> > > Irac and Turkey.
> >
> > This news is amazing. How recently were these manuscripts discovered?
> > Which scholars are working on editing them or reporting on them and
> > when can we expect to see information published? Have any papers on
> > this remarkable discovery been given at any academic conferences yet?
> > If so, by whom?
> >
> > I'm a little surprised that I've heard nothing about this breakthrough
> > discovery, as it's the biggest thing to happen in early medieval studies
> > for decades. I take it these manuscripts have only been discovered
> > in recent months or weeks, otherwise the medieval academic world
> > would be buzzing with the news already.
> >
> > > The photocopies I have seen have the same text as exists in a Swedish
> 13th
> > > Century source, mostly forgotten.... Forntida Svenska legender written
> by
> > > Pater Stephanus of Skänninge(Östergötland) where he translated into
> Swedish
> > > information given by early historians. The book still exists in one copy
> > > privately owned in Linköping. I saw it once when my class and one of our
> > > teachers were allowed to see it in 1960's. I have photocopies of parts
> of
> > > it. In those copies special information regarding Konstantin the Great's
> > > chapel in Arles and Konstantin the Great's mother and Ablabius himself
> is
> > > given.
> >
> > Hang on - so a version of Ablabius' lost text has been known since the
> 1960s?!
> > How can this be? Why are there hundreds of scholars specialising in
> Gothic
> > studies who are completely unaware of this work? If photocopies of it are
> > circulating to students and amateurs like yourself, why aren't world
> renowned
> > academics who have devoted their careers to the study of this subject
> aware
> > of it?
> >
> > Something doesn't quite add up here. Please explain.
> >
> > > > Unless you've been lucky enough to find a MS of Jordanes complete
> > > > with his original bibliography and footnotes, of course.
> > >
> > > Jordanes have been lazy more than one should believe him to have been.
> Many
> > > of the texts is word by word transcribed from other texts but Jordanes
> have
> > > taken half a sentence there and the other half from the next more than
> once.
> > > He have mixed three sources at least once using that method.....
> >
> > Well, one way to determine Jordanes' sources is to take his word for it,
> > as he often refers to the source of his information in his text. Here's
> > a list of authors he refers to specifically, with chapter references:
> >
> > Orosius (4,121,58)
> > Livy (10 )
> > Strabo (12)
> > Tacitus (13 )
> > Dio Chrysostom (14,40, 58,65)
> > Ptolemy (16,19)
> > Pomponius Mela (16)
> > Ablabius (28,82,117)
> > Josephus (29)
> > Pompeius Trogus (61)
> > Symmachus (83,88)
> > Dionysius (104)
> > Deuxippus (113)
> > Priscus (123, 178, 183, 222, 254, 255)
> >
> > Any other supposed sources are, by neccesity, hypothetical.
> >
> > > > These 'five' sources mention Berig?! That's amazing - can you quote
> them
> > > > directly?
> > >
> > > As I told you No name of Gothic Kings before the Goths had crossed the
> > > Baltic Sea can be confirmed in two independent sources.
> >
> > So, in other words, we *don't* have any other sources that confirms the
> > story of Berig as told in Jordanes at all. That's what I thought.
> >
> > > > > Those Goths weren't however the only group moving from Scandinavia
> due
> > > to
> > > > > the fact that more children than usual were born between 150 BC and
> 100
> > > AD
> > > > > and that more children than usual came of age. That fact is
> mentioned
> > > in
> > > > > several sources from 100 BC-550 AD.
> > > >
> > > > Again, this is remarkable. What are these sources?
> >
> > > Most of the old Historians have shorter or longer documentations about
> this.
> > > I am more surprised that you missed it or have you believed that it
> isn't
> > > there and than only read those works you have thought you needed for
> your
> > > present studies? I don't know. I know I have read more than most. Have
> you
> > > read Orosius own works for example and have you read Zosimus all works
> or
> > > have you read Cassiodorus Variae? That's only three of many who gives
> > > information, btw Orosius and Zosimus confirms each other more than once
> but
> > > I guess we still have to believe them to be independent. You may take a
> look
> > > in several other as well my list contains 225 sources I checked all
> written
> > > before 800, 155 of them are written before 600AD.
> >
> > I suspect I know many of the passages you're talking about, but
> > what I'm questioning is the way you are stating this stuff as fact.
> >
> >
> > > > Census documents
> > > > written in runes on birch bark perhaps?
> > >
> > > Why should it be? I didn't know that people in Asia minor and Greek used
> > > that method.... :-)
> >
> > Historians dealing with fragmentary sources which are often tainted
> > by legend and are frequently rather garbled tend to use more judicious
> > language - 'MAY have been', 'it can be ARGUED that', 'possibly'
> > etc. What I'm questioning is the way you consistently present your
> > hypotheses as though they are solid facts. They aren't - they're
> > conjecture, just as anyone's hypotheses in this field have to be
> > conjecture. You undermine your own credibility by doing this.
> >
> > > > > I am sorry but I can't be more specific in this question
> > > > > in an open group.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, God - here we go ...
> > > >
> > > > > Nor can I give you any quotations in an open group,
> > > >
> > > > I don't want quotations, just tell me which sources you're
> > > > talking about, with citations of where the relevant sections
> > > > are found. Unless you've uncovered hitherto unknown
> > > > ancient works they should be works well known to scholarship
> > > > already and fairly easy for me to track down.
> > > >
> > > > So - sources and citations please.
> > >
> > > As I said before - If you can read Swedish and you give me your word not
> to
> > > discuss it in an open discussiongroup, I am willing to send you one or
> two
> > > chapters, not the complete manuscript, . That's my final answer
> otherwise
> > > you have to wait until it's translated.
> >
> > No-one has asked you for any chapters of your work. I don't want
> > them at all, but thanks for the offer anyway. Once again you've posted
> > to this **DISCUSSION** group and alluded to certain amazing information.
> > When asked to substantiate your claim, you've hidden behind this 'I
> > can't discuss this in an open group' stuff, and alleged that someone from
> > SHM has once stolen material from you. So, a few questions:
> >
> > (i) Who stole this material and where did they publish it? It would be
> > easier for people to take this seriously if you substantiated this
> allegation,
> > otherwise people could be forgiven for suspecting you're making this
> > whole thing up to avoid exposing your theories to informed criticism
> >
> > (ii) If you don't intend to discuss this stuff, why post on it in the
> first
> > place?
> >
> > (iii) Why does Inger E. Johannson B.A. know of the last MSS of the
> > lost work of Ablabius, while people like Herwig Wolfram remain
> > ignorant of them?
> >
> > I'm very interested in your answers to all of these questions.
> >
> > Tim O'Neill
> >
--
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Inger E
"Mike Adams" <abr...@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3C9C1D9A...@yahoo.com...
> From what I have heard, the Goths in Crimea lasted atleast in part until
> c.1750..
That's correct. I have asked Ingemar N if he would be kind enough to ask a
friendly Scholar of his in Ukraine if the documents from 1100-1450 still are
awailable.
Inger E
Inger E
you will find a net-version of Cassiodorus Variae at:
http://freespace.virgin.net/angus.graham/Cassiodorus.htm
You can read more about Ammianus Marcellinus at:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6946/literature/ammianus_bio.html
(there are good links as well)
I will return with more.
Inger E
"Mike Adams" <abr...@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:3C9C210A...@yahoo.com...
Tilmann Chladek
> I do have the sources. For two of them look into an other answer to a mail
> of yours in the groups.
And I have the Holy Grail.
But I wont show it to you (or anybody else).
But I do have it, really!
--
Tilmann Chladek
300 Jahre Mittelalter bloss erfunden?
Infos dazu ueber <http://home.snafu.de/tilmann.chladek>
Inger E
all have read them, otherwise you wouldn't be so hard on me.....
Cassiodorus, Variae 1.3.3-4; e 1.3.5; 1.3.10-13; 1.4.4; 1.4.6; 3.28; 9.25
Diaconus Paulus, 1:1-2. note that Diaconus ref to
Plinus Secundus, Naturalis historia m.fl.
Diaconus Paulus, 1:25
Eunapius Fragmenta, bok 3, 20, 2
Eunapius Lives of the Sophists, översatt WC Wright Ph.D. London 1921, sid
463ff
Jordanes, Getica 28, Getica 112
Malchus 20,110
Mansi 9,716
Olympidors 1:2; 7:2
Philostratus, Lives of the Sophists, bok 1:487
Ptolemaios, Geography of Claudius Ptoloby
Sozomen 9,4
Tacitus, Germania 2.2.
Valesiske codicil, II:12
Inger E
"Tilmann Chladek" <tilmann...@snafu.de> skrev i meddelandet
news:1f9i8py.3rlcjg169twbwN%tilmann...@snafu.de...
Tilmann Chladek
> sources for two papers in one chapter of the Gothic Mosaic. I am sure you
> all have read them, otherwise you wouldn't be so hard on me.....
[...]
Hard? You should see me when I am hard ... :)
Søren Larsen
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:a7bm73$7lh$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> In soc.history.medieval Tom Lehman <TLe...@lor.net> wrote:
> >Paul---Have you ever read Manchester's "A World Lit Only By Fire"? From what I've
> >read Manchester and his friend Lester Thurow of MIT have some ideas about the
> >breakup of classical civilization and the Dark Ages.
>
> >In my own opinion there does seem to be some real gaps between roughly 800 AD and
> >1000 AD and some earlier and later gaps too.
>
> >Tom
>
> Tom:
>
> Please. I don't want to get into it. This group has had
> enough flames already. But Manchester's book is famous
> among medievalists as the most factually incorrect book
> published about the Middle Ages in many years. You'd
> be better off reading Barbara Tuchman, and she's not
> got the best sources either.
>
> I have not seen anyone who knew anything about medieval
> history give any praise at all to Manchester's book. In
> fact, some say it is so bad as to put his other books
> under suspicion.
>
> Pleae don't take my word for it. Check it out.
>
> ---- Paul J. Gans
>
> PS: Here are some excerpts from a *favorable* review:
>
> http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg060700.html
>
> <start excerpt>
>
> Well, I?ve been reading a wonderful book, A World Lit Only By Fire:
> The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance by William Manchester. In it
> I learned what I always knew, if you know what I mean. The average ?poor?
> American today lives better than most kings a few centuries ago. Most
> medieval monarchs were illiterate. They often died of everyday diseases.
> Sanitation was, to use the clinical term, ?icky.?
>
> Meanwhile a rich peasant lived a life that was worse than even the most
> egregious child-welfare horror stories. Here is how Erasmus described
> the average home of a prosperous peasant:
>
> ...?almost all the floors are of clay and rushes from the marshes,
> so carelessly renewed that the foundation sometimes remains for
> twenty years, harboring, there below, spittle and vomit and wine
> of dogs and men, beer?remnants of fishes and other fish unnameable.
> Hence, with the change of weather, a vapor exhales which in my
> judgement is far from wholesome.
>
> And that is how prosperous peasants lived. The poor folk lived
> outside, often year-round. They lived in villages without names that did
> not exist on maps. If they got lost a few miles from their home it was
> possible they would never find it again. If they had rags for clothes
> they were lucky. It was unimaginable that they would ever be clean, which
> is why skin disease and festering sores (called ?Dershowitzes?) were nearly
> universal ? as were lice, rats, and all sorts of stuff that can now
> be found only under my own couch. Unsurprisingly, dentistry was not quite
> the art it is today.
>
Let me continue:
"Before the black death in fourteenth century famines were more common
than in Cabot's day; cannibalism was not unknown and reports spread
of people eating their own children to survive; strangers ran the risk of
being waylaid and killed for food and even corpses hanging from the gallows
might be torn down for food"
This passage is from a book on a reproduction of John Cabots ship 'Matthew'
it follows after a passage that is almost identical to the one above.
It uses ' A World Lit Only By Fire ' as the main source to describe life in
the middleages.
It also tells about the bloodeagles of the Vikings and states that knarrs could
only get 90º into the wind. It tells us as a fact that the Irish had colonies on
Greenland and that it is almost certain that St Brendan sailed to North America.
'¨The voyage of the Matthew' is by a Peter Firstbrook with a foreword by
H.R.H Prince Philip and was published in 1997 by BBC books.
The book has some nice ship-pictures and is a quite fun read.
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Jonathan Jarrett
Inger E <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote:
>
>"Tim O'Neill" <sca...@bigpond.com> skrev i meddelandet
>news:3C9856F1...@bigpond.com...
>>
>> Inger E wrote:
>>
>> > "Tim O'Neill" <sca...@bigpond.com> skrev i meddelandet
>> >
>> > > There are a number of other *major* events in the early history of the
>> > > Goths which we only know anything about from one source - usually
>> > > Jordanes. But let's start with Berig's migration - what is the other
>> > > source (or sources) which document this ancient (and possibly
>partially
>> > > mythical or even entirely fabulous) event?
>>
>> > Yes Jordanes sources are known to me. All of them.
>>
>> I take you you're trying to say you *think* you have identified Jordanes'
>> sources, since they are either lost (Ablabius) or, at best, speculation.
>
>Ablabius isn't lost, his work still exist in two monestries I have been told
>and also seen photocopies of(I will return to this later) one on an island
>in Greece where only monks live and one in a monestry on the border between
>Irac and Turkey.
I assume you mean photostats here? I hate to think of anyone
trying to photocopy a parchment manuscript...
>The photocopies I have seen have the same text as exists in a Swedish 13th
>Century source, mostly forgotten.... Forntida Svenska legender written by
>Pater Stephanus of Skänninge(Östergötland) where he translated into Swedish
>information given by early historians. The book still exists in one copy
>privately owned in Linköping. I saw it once when my class and one of our
>teachers were allowed to see it in 1960's. I have photocopies of parts of
>it. In those copies special information regarding Konstantin the Great's
>chapel in Arles and Konstantin the Great's mother and Ablabius himself is
>given.
>
>> Unless you've been lucky enough to find a MS of Jordanes complete
>> with his original bibliography and footnotes, of course.
>
>Jordanes have been lazy more than one should believe him to have been. Many
>of the texts is word by word transcribed from other texts but Jordanes have
>taken half a sentence there and the other half from the next more than once.
>He have mixed three sources at least once using that method.....
S'funny, I'm sure I've read Walter Goffart saying much the same
thing.
>> What do you *believe* Jordanes sources to be?
>
>One of Jordanes oldest source re Alexander the Great(Oh have Jordanes made a
>bad translation?!) is Diodorus. Part of the most interesting pieces comes
>from some of the so called missing chapters.... anyhow they were found in
>the same monestry in Greece I refered to earlier by two German Professors
>who together made a translation into German and edited the text.
<rest snipped>
Did this text get published? If so, I don't suppose there's any
chance of you telling us where? Let me make sure, you're talking about
books additional to the extra ten that were added to the first editions of
five books only? I'd very much like to read that edition. I can manage
German so you needn't fear my being unable to use it. Could you provide a
cite?
You seem from your other posts to do this in unconventional ways,
so if for my sake you could give the editors' names, the name of the work
in which it was published (book or journal) and the date it was published,
I should have no trouble tracking it down. I'm not working on this period,
my field currently being Catalonia in the ninth to eleventh centuries, but
a closer grip on Jordanes would be good to have in any case. Many thanks
in advance, yours,
Jon Jarrett
"Cognosco quod facio, o spectatores"
--
Jonathan Jarrett Cambridge/London
jjarrett at chiark.greenend.org.uk early medieval history
01223 514989 tea & spacerock
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