Taking the Goth out of Gothic
Afropea
found interesting was that she starts the book ranting about the misuse of the
term "Gothic" in referring to late Medieval Art. She refuses to use the term
and only refers to dates.
In the same series (Oxford History of Art) Evelyn Welch uses the title "Art and
Society in Italy 1350-1500" rather than "Renaissance Italy" and Craig Clunas
uses "Art in China" rather than "Chinese Art" because so much of the
significant art of that area isn't technically "Chinese". Is this a new PC
trend? I have to admit that I approve, but it can be rather confusing.
(BTW, the Welch book is excellent and I highly recommend it. IMHO, it's
perfect for anyone interested in the history of that time and place.)
Eve
Tim O'Neill
Afropea wrote:
> I've recently started reading Veronica Sekules' book on Medieval Art. What I
> found interesting was that she starts the book ranting about the misuse of the
> term "Gothic" in referring to late Medieval Art. She refuses to use the term
> and only refers to dates.
>
> In the same series (Oxford History of Art) Evelyn Welch uses the title "Art and
> Society in Italy 1350-1500" rather than "Renaissance Italy" and Craig Clunas
> uses "Art in China" rather than "Chinese Art" because so much of the
> significant art of that area isn't technically "Chinese". Is this a new PC
> trend? I have to admit that I approve, but it can be rather confusing.
I don't know if its a PC trend (how is it PC? There are no Ostrogoths
around to be offended), but it may be trying to lessen confusion rather
than create it. 'Gothic' has a number of meanings such as (i) pertaining
to the Gothic peoples, (ii) the language of the Goths, (iii) the High
Medieval art style (iv) the style of melodramatic horror and (v) the
sub-culture involving misunderstood whey-faced middle class
angst victims who want to look different by all dressing the same.
On the Gothic-L discussion list we often get posts from people
called things like 'Alison Sex Fiend' asking about the latest
release by Type O Negative. Worse still are the ones who post
saying 'This group is stoopid. What are you doods all talking
about? Unsubscribe unsubscribe unsubscribe etc'. This is
despite the fact that the groups YahooGroups page is plastered
with clear notices that the group is about the ancient Gothic
peoples and their history and language and that anyone joining
gets a welcome message with the same information (and clear
instructions as to how to unsubscribe).
I'm not, of course, implying that all the whey-faced angst kiddies
are thick, just that a lot of the really stupid ones seem to end up
as accidental subscribers to Gothic-L.
Cheers,
Tim O'Neill
(Some of whose best friends are or were Goths - of both
persuasions)
Afropea
>
>> I've recently started reading Veronica Sekules' book on Medieval Art.
> What I
>> found interesting was that she starts the book ranting about the misuse
>of the
>> term "Gothic" in referring to late Medieval Art. She refuses to use the
>term
>> and only refers to dates.
>>
>> In the same series (Oxford History of Art) Evelyn Welch uses the title
>"Art and
>> Society in Italy 1350-1500" rather than "Renaissance Italy" and Craig
>Clunas
>> uses "Art in China" rather than "Chinese Art" because so much of the
>> significant art of that area isn't technically "Chinese". Is this a new
>PC
>> trend? I have to admit that I approve, but it can be rather confusing.
Tim O'Neill writes
>I don't know if its a PC trend (how is it PC? There are no Ostrogoths
>around to be offended), but it may be trying to lessen confusion rather
>than create it. 'Gothic' has a number of meanings such as (i) pertaining
>to the Gothic peoples, (ii) the language of the Goths, (iii) the High
>Medieval art style (iv) the style of melodramatic horror and (v) the
>sub-culture involving misunderstood whey-faced middle class
>angst victims who want to look different by all dressing the same.
>
>On the Gothic-L discussion list we often get posts from people
>called things like 'Alison Sex Fiend' asking about the latest
>release by Type O Negative. Worse still are the ones who post
>saying 'This group is stoopid. What are you doods all talking
>about?
From your description it sounds like the confusion is definitely on the side of
the "Gothic" term users!
I wonder if new labels will end up replacing the old ones or if historians will
just stick to dates? IMHO this is probably a more accurate way of dealing with
things. All encompassing terms tend to get very messy. Too many exceptions
untidily sticking out at the sides.
>(Some of whose best friends are or were Goths - of both
>persuasions)
Perhaps these are the folks who would be offended at what they see as incorrect
usage? ;-)
Eve
Tony Jebson
[snip]
> (v) the sub-culture involving misunderstood whey-faced middle class
> angst victims who want to look different by all dressing the same.
They usually grow out of it and become perfectly well adjusted
lawyers and accountants . . . <g>
[snip]
--- Tony Jebson
Martin Reboul
Tony Jebson wrote:
Not all of us....!
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
I'm not sure that this isn't an oxymoron.
Brian
sophia
<sca...@bigpond.com> writes
>On the Gothic-L discussion list we often get posts from people
>called things like 'Alison Sex Fiend' asking about the latest
>release by Type O Negative. Worse still are the ones who post
>saying 'This group is stoopid. What are you doods all talking
>about? Unsubscribe unsubscribe unsubscribe etc'. This is
>despite the fact that the groups YahooGroups page is plastered
>with clear notices that the group is about the ancient Gothic
>peoples and their history and language and that anyone joining
>gets a welcome message with the same information (and clear
>instructions as to how to unsubscribe).
Ah, but these people aren't goths, as can be seen from the music
referenced and the quotes, they are what is technically referred to as
'spooky kids', who are different again. It's so important to get the
terminology right, especially if one is going into a rant about people
not getting terminology right....
>
>I'm not, of course, implying that all the whey-faced angst kiddies
>are thick, just that a lot of the really stupid ones seem to end up
>as accidental subscribers to Gothic-L.
The spooky kids (especially the US ones) are equally annoying when
we get a rash of them appearing on uk.people.gothic, which *is*
about goth music, clubs and similar.
--
Sophia (out and proud Nancy Mitford goth)
Faith in Fabulousness
www.arxana.demon.co.uk/
icq: 93834408
Tim O'Neill
sophia wrote:
> In article <3B85709F...@bigpond.com>, Tim O'Neill
> <sca...@bigpond.com> writes
>
> >On the Gothic-L discussion list we often get posts from people
> >called things like 'Alison Sex Fiend' asking about the latest
> >release by Type O Negative. Worse still are the ones who post
> >saying 'This group is stoopid. What are you doods all talking
> >about? Unsubscribe unsubscribe unsubscribe etc'. This is
> >despite the fact that the groups YahooGroups page is plastered
> >with clear notices that the group is about the ancient Gothic
> >peoples and their history and language and that anyone joining
> >gets a welcome message with the same information (and clear
> >instructions as to how to unsubscribe).
>
> Ah, but these people aren't goths, as can be seen from the music
> referenced and the quotes, they are what is technically referred to as
> 'spooky kids', who are different again. It's so important to get the
> terminology right, especially if one is going into a rant about people
> not getting terminology right....
Ummm, okay, but several of them seemed awfully certain that
they *were* 'goths' and definitely joined Gothic-L for that
reason. Strangely enough, I've noticed that 'who is and isn't
a goth' seems to be a perennial subject on gothic discussion
fora, and the conclusion is usually that 'they' aren't goths but
'we' (ie me and my mates) are. Maybe you should tell the
non-goths who thought they were goths and thus joined
Gothic-L by mistake that they were, in fact, mistaken.
One 'goth' I know was so exclusive about his definition of
what 'goth' meant that, as far as I could make out, it seemed
to apply only to him and (perhaps) his girlfriend. Everyone
else were wannabes.
Strange ...
And he liked Type O Negative. He was also 32 years old and
unlikely to be a 'kid' of any description, 'spooky' or otherwise.
> >I'm not, of course, implying that all the whey-faced angst kiddies
> >are thick, just that a lot of the really stupid ones seem to end up
> >as accidental subscribers to Gothic-L.
>
> The spooky kids (especially the US ones) are equally annoying when
> we get a rash of them appearing on uk.people.gothic, which *is*
> about goth music, clubs and similar.
So the goths on uk.people.gothic are 'real' goths then? This
is getting awfully confusing. ;>
Tim O'Neill
(Not a goth)
David C. Pugh
Tim O'Neill <sca...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
(...)
> One 'goth' I know was so exclusive about his definition of
> what 'goth' meant that, as far as I could make out, it seemed
> to apply only to him and (perhaps) his girlfriend. Everyone
> else were wannabes.
Just like Christian fundamentalists and the True Church. Which is me
and the wife, but the wife's getting a bit Unsound lately.....
(...)
> So the goths on uk.people.gothic are 'real' goths then? This
> is getting awfully confusing. ;>
>
> Tim O'Neill
> (Not a goth)
Hey, "1066 and All That" missed one there. Should have been the
"Ostrogoths, Visigoths and Notagoths. And even Goths."
David
Mike Dana
<blink... ...blink... ...blink>
You mean they really *are* aliens?!?!?
Time to put in another call to Division VI!
--
Mike Dana Everett, Washington, U.S.A.
"Bureaucracy is a mindless, amoral, expansionist force."
--Mike Dana, 12 September, 2000
Tim O'Neill
"David C. Pugh" wrote:
And you can imagine a group of Germanics hanging around in
northern Italy circa 450 AD discussing who is and isn't a 'real'
Goth.
"He says he's an Amaling, but I know for a fact his
grandmother was a Skirian"
"And what about those Visigoths"
"Oh, I know - Goths my arse, they're one step up from
Gepids if you ask me."
"Don't talk to me about the Gepids - prancing around
like they're descended from Gapt himself. Bloody
try-hards."
"And I've got my doubts about Thiudareiks ..."
"Don't you mean 'Theodoric Flavius'? I ask you -
Roman surname, Senatorial rank, wearing a toga
instead of wolfskins. Where will it end?"
"Shhh, here he comes ... Hails Thiudareiks thiudans,
Ik thuk golja!"
Tim O'Neill
(Not a Goth either)
erilar
Very good point!
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
David C. Pugh
Tim O'Neill <sca...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> And you can imagine a group of Germanics hanging around in
> northern Italy circa 450 AD discussing who is and isn't a 'real'
> Goth.
>
> "He says he's an Amaling, but I know for a fact his
> grandmother was a Skirian"
>
> "And what about those Visigoths"
>
> "Oh, I know - Goths my arse, they're one step up from
> Gepids if you ask me."
>
> "Don't talk to me about the Gepids - prancing around
> like they're descended from Gapt himself. Bloody
> try-hards."
>
> "And I've got my doubts about Thiudareiks ..."
>
> "Don't you mean 'Theodoric Flavius'? I ask you -
> Roman surname, Senatorial rank, wearing a toga
> instead of wolfskins. Where will it end?"
>
> "Shhh, here he comes ... Hails Thiudareiks thiudans,
> Ik thuk golja!"
>
> Tim O'Neill
> (Not a Goth either)
ROTFLMAO!!!
David
Paul J Gans
>"David C. Pugh" wrote:
Wonderful! In fact, I can imagine something just like
that happening!
---- Paul J. Gans
William Black
Tim O'Neill <sca...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> > The spooky kids (especially the US ones) are equally annoying when
> > we get a rash of them appearing on uk.people.gothic, which *is*
> > about goth music, clubs and similar.
>
> So the goths on uk.people.gothic are 'real' goths then? This
> is getting awfully confusing. ;>
If you think you've got problems then try living near Whitby.
Where can you get a swatter big enough for bats?
--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
ArtKramr
>>northern Italy circa 450 AD discussing who is and isn't a 'real'
>>Goth.
Goth ist mit uns!
Arthur Kramer
Las Vegas NV
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
Mike Dana
ROtFL!
Could this be the prelude to Die Gotherdammerung (Twilight of the
Goths)...?
Mike Dana
>
> Tim O'Neill <sca...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>
> > > The spooky kids (especially the US ones) are equally annoying when
> > > we get a rash of them appearing on uk.people.gothic, which *is*
> > > about goth music, clubs and similar.
> >
> > So the goths on uk.people.gothic are 'real' goths then? This
> > is getting awfully confusing. ;>
>
> If you think you've got problems then try living near Whitby.
>
> Where can you get a swatter big enough for bats?
Gotham City Pest Control...
...be sure to pay the extra 20 bucks for the big searchlight!
-- The Punstrel
David C. Pugh
William Black <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9m6045$1dt$2...@uranium.btinternet.com...
>
> Tim O'Neill <sca...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>
> > > The spooky kids (especially the US ones) are equally annoying
when
> > > we get a rash of them appearing on uk.people.gothic, which *is*
> > > about goth music, clubs and similar.
> >
> > So the goths on uk.people.gothic are 'real' goths then? This
> > is getting awfully confusing. ;>
>
> If you think you've got problems then try living near Whitby.
>
> Where can you get a swatter big enough for bats?
It's true, then, that the Whitby telephone directory is called the
Almanac de Gotha?
David
Paul J Gans
>>>And you can imagine a group of Germanics hanging around in
>>>northern Italy circa 450 AD discussing who is and isn't a 'real'
>>>Goth.
>Goth ist mit uns!
Now *that* is funny!
---- Paul J. Gans
Afropea
>
>And you can imagine a group of Germanics hanging around in
>northern Italy circa 450 AD discussing who is and isn't a 'real'
>Goth.
>
>"He says he's an Amaling, but I know for a fact his
>grandmother was a Skirian"
>
>"And what about those Visigoths"
>
>"Oh, I know - Goths my arse, they're one step up from
>Gepids if you ask me."
>
>"Don't talk to me about the Gepids - prancing around
>like they're descended from Gapt himself. Bloody
>try-hards."
>
>"And I've got my doubts about Thiudareiks ..."
>
>"Don't you mean 'Theodoric Flavius'? I ask you -
>Roman surname, Senatorial rank, wearing a toga
>instead of wolfskins. Where will it end?"
>
>"Shhh, here he comes ... Hails Thiudareiks thiudans,
>Ik thuk golja!"
LOL even though I don't completely know what you're talking about! What I want
to know is what sort of music did they listen to? ;-)
Eve
ArtKramr
>>>>And you can imagine a group of Germanics hanging around in
>>>>northern Italy circa 450 AD discussing who is and isn't a 'real'
>>>>Goth.
>
>>Goth ist mit uns!
>
>Now *that* is funny!
>
> ---- Paul J. Gans
Das ist zehr nett von ihnen zu sahgen und fur das ich bedanke mich. (lacheln)
ArtKramr
That's easy. They listened to the heavenly music of the Goths.
Tony Jebson
[snip]
> northern Italy circa 450 AD discussing who is and isn't a 'real'
> Goth.
>
> "He says he's an Amaling, but I know for a fact his
> grandmother was a Skirian"
>
> "And what about those Visigoths"
>
> "Oh, I know - Goths my arse, they're one step up from
> Gepids if you ask me."
>
> "Don't talk to me about the Gepids - prancing around
> like they're descended from Gapt himself. Bloody
> try-hards."
>
> "And I've got my doubts about Thiudareiks ..."
>
> "Don't you mean 'Theodoric Flavius'? I ask you -
> Roman surname, Senatorial rank, wearing a toga
> instead of wolfskins. Where will it end?"
>
> "Shhh, here he comes ... Hails Thiudareiks thiudans,
> Ik thuk golja!"
Hmm . . . I seem to remember an exchange like this in
_Lest Darkness Fall_, L. Sprague de Camp!
--- Tony Jebson
Tony Jebson
[snip]
> LOL even though I don't completely know what you're talking about!
> What I want to know is what sort of music did they listen to? ;-)
Sister of Mercy, Bauhaus, Field of the Nephelim . . . or does that
make me a non-Goth?
--- Tony Jebson
[Who's never been close to the pale, emaciated Goth archetype ;-)]
Tony Jebson
> Sister of Mercy, Bauhaus, Field of the Nephelim . . . or does that
Except of course that would be Mother Teresa. I meant _Sisters_ . . .
> make me a non-Goth?
Richard VanHouten
je...@texas.net says...
religious in nature - Nestorian, Arian, orthodox Catholic,
etc.
John Kane
Cannot find my copy of de Camp but I think he claimed to be Unitarian
which was the closest thing to Nestorian, Arian, orthodox Catholic, etc.
that existed in the USA. It depended upon who he was talking to, He
seemed fairly flexible :). BTW what is a Unitarian?
--
------------------
John Kane
The Rideau Lakes, Ontario
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
> BTW what is a Unitarian?
<http://www.uua.org/main.html>
<http://www.unitarian.org.uk/>
Brian
Martin Reboul
ArtKramr wrote:
Is that like Marilyn Manson?
Martin Reboul
William Black wrote:
> Tim O'Neill <sca...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>
> > > The spooky kids (especially the US ones) are equally annoying when
> > > we get a rash of them appearing on uk.people.gothic, which *is*
> > > about goth music, clubs and similar.
> >
> > So the goths on uk.people.gothic are 'real' goths then? This
> > is getting awfully confusing. ;>
>
> If you think you've got problems then try living near Whitby.
>
> Where can you get a swatter big enough for bats?
Ahem! Last time I went there I just had to try out that stone coffin by the
Abbey for size (a good 18" too small for me). When I finally got bored
(what a dreary, uncomfortable way to spend eternity) and sat up, a bunch of
American tourists had appeared from nowhere and were somewhat disconcerted
by my unexpected appearance - comments about 'bad taste' were made indeed.
Haven't been back since...
Cheers
Martin
Bill Johnston
Martin Reboul <martin...@virgin.net> wrote in article
<3B88F3D8...@virgin.net>...
>
>
> William Black wrote:
>
> > Tim O'Neill <sca...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > > The spooky kids (especially the US ones) are equally annoying when
> > > > we get a rash of them appearing on uk.people.gothic, which *is*
> > > > about goth music, clubs and similar.
> > >
> > > So the goths on uk.people.gothic are 'real' goths then? This
> > > is getting awfully confusing. ;>
It seems like all rebelliousish fringe groups have big feuds about
authenticity and who is and who isn't truly "the real thing"...I'm familiar
with this in the case of Marxist-Leninists and metalheads.
bogus address
>>> The spooky kids (especially the US ones) are equally annoying when
>>> we get a rash of them appearing on uk.people.gothic, which *is*
>>> about goth music, clubs and similar.
>> So the goths on uk.people.gothic are 'real' goths then? This
>> is getting awfully confusing. ;>
> It seems like all rebelliousish fringe groups have big feuds about
> authenticity and who is and who isn't truly "the real thing"...I'm
> familiar with this in the case of Marxist-Leninists and metalheads.
Of course this is what the "Critique of the Gotha Programme" was about...
========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
D. Spencer Hines
Marx must be spinning in his grave.
"For by diligent perusing the actes of great men, by considering all the circumstances of them, by composing Counseiles and Meanes with events, a man may seem to have lived in all ages, to have been present at all enterprises, to be more strongly confirmed in Judgement, to have attained a greater experience than the longest life can possibly afford."
John Hayward, __The Lives of the III Norman Kings of England, William the First, William the Second and Henry I__, London, 1612, Preface
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in writing.
------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"bogus address" <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:81...@purr.demon.co.uk...
Anoninsac
> "Tim O'Neill" wrote:
[snip]
> lawyers and accountants . . . <g>
>
>
> --- Tony Jebson
Hey, easy on the accountants. Not all of us are well adjusted...
Tony Jebson
[snip]
> The exchange I remember from "Lest Darkness Fall" was
> religious in nature - Nestorian, Arian, orthodox Catholic,
> etc.
Yes, you're right. My memory was wrong . . .
--- Tony Jebson