Basques discover the Grand Banks 1372
Jack Linthicum
fishing grounds off Nova Scotia and Newfoundland in 1372. This is from
wikipedia but the same or nearly same phrase is used in any reference
to this event:
"Legend, rumor, hearsay, and some archaeological and documentary
evidence, however, suggest that Basques began dominating the history
of whaling when they discovered the Grand Banks by 1372. Basque
fishing, trading, or pirate ships rediscovered and perhaps even
pillaged the desperately isolated and likely abandoned Viking Eastern
Settlement on Greenland, probably before 1450. The details of what
exactly transpired there remain lost to the shroud of time; however,
the settlement probably disappeared during the 15th century."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_European_maritime_culture
Does anyone know what the 'archeological and documentary evidence'
for this is?
Soren Larsen
Regarding Greenland it is does not exist.
I dont know about the evidence regarding the Great Banks.
History is not what it used to be.
Paul J Gans
As far as I know, there is no real evidence. There is *some*
evidence that the Basques were in the Grand Banks around 100
years later and it is possible that this long string of quotes
goes back to an error of one digit.
As for the settlements in Greenland, I don't believe that there
is any evidence that any of them were "pillaged".
--
--- Paul J. Gans
Jack Linthicum
One source in Wiki (Jonas Poole, ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jonas_Poole)
whom I see as believable says this:
" * Bertrand d'Argentré, who lived in the second half of the 16th
century, was the first one who sustained in his History of Brittany
that Basques, Bretons and Normands were the first ones to reach Terre
Neuve (Newfoundland, but then applied to all North America, as
registered by Oyenart in 1636) before any other people.
* Belgian whale scientist Van Beneden claimed in 1892 that the
Basques "in the late 14th cantury, year 1372, turned to the west and
saw the whales numbers increase due to the approach to the
Newfoundland Banks". This belief is sustained by other scholars such
as Dr. Camino y Orella (History of the City of St. Sebastian), A.
Irigaray (1971) and Robert de Loture (1946). But is not supported by
any document AFAIK.
* Several old sources suggest that Cristopher Colombus drew his
knowledge from the existence of some lands at reach by the west from
these fishermen of Newfoundland, mostly Basques but also Bretons and
others. This seems to be the opinon of Etienne Cleirac (Us et costumes
de la mer, 1661) and of Esteban de Garibay (1571). "
and
"Not sure about Iceland, but there's aboundant documentition about
Basques being in Newfoundland and other areas of Atlantic Canada in
the early 16th century. Before this date, everything is speculative.
Again it seems cod fishing pre-dated whaling in that area."
and since his interest is in the whaling, he suspends judgment.
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
<09015f45-0f7d-456f...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
jackli...@earthlink.net (Jack Linthicum) wrote:
> Does anyone know what the 'archeological and documentary evidence'
> for this is?
See "Cod the fish that changed the world". The evidence is largely that
the Basques were landing cod from unknown fishing grounds. The argument
was that if they were not fishing in any of the known medieval cod
sources they must have been fishing the Grand Banks.
Ken Young
Jack Linthicum
> In article
> <09015f45-0f7d-456f-9f2a-7e3005b42...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> jacklinthi...@earthlink.net (Jack Linthicum) wrote:
> > Does anyone know what the 'archeological and documentary evidence'
> > for this is?
>
> See "Cod the fish that changed the world". The evidence is largely that
> the Basques were landing cod from unknown fishing grounds. The argument
> was that if they were not fishing in any of the known medieval cod
> sources they must have been fishing the Grand Banks.
>
> Ken Young
But the guy I cited above, Jason Poole, seems to have a fairly good
handle on the quality of this "archaeology" and "documentation". I
tend to agree with him that it needs to be a lot more evident than
some Belgian in 1892 saying so. That is why I saw the new id of cod
bones for location of origin as a possible form of proof.
Paul J Gans
>and
Many people have written about this, including some regarded
not only as decent historians but very decent sailors as well.
Perhaps I've missed it, but none of them have regarded any
of this "evidence" as being of a quality that ought to be
taken seriously.
I have a great deal of serious doubts about all the highly
touted (on the internet) SECRET HISTORY that is unknown to
scholars supposedly because of various cabals among them.
As you know this is very true of current politics and history.
It is even more true of medieval history.
John Kane
But you're in one of the cabals so you'd have to say that! Does your
cabal have secret handshakes too?
Have fun in Kalamazoo.
John Kane Kingston ON, Canada.
Jack Linthicum
The usual explanation is the Basque language is sort of a hidden
tongue anyway and the Basques had a good thing and didn't want to
share it. Still, they sold dried fish to the Bristol people in the
15th century and had been heavy figures in the cod selling business
since 1000.
Paul J Gans
Yes we do. We used to use bearhugs, but one of the bears got
a bit upset at one of our members who hadn't washed too recently
and there was a bad accident. So now we shake hand. It is
ok to wear gloves when you do because bear claws are not
retractable.
>Have fun in Kalamazoo.
Shall do. Renia has already commissioned me to report as often
as I can. Given the state of the wine freely served, I may
require hazardous duty pay.
Paul J Gans
None of that is unreasonable. But the Grand Banks is a stretch
without some real evidence, as I think you will agree.
Soren Larsen
> Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> On Apr 17, 3:57 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> On Apr 16, 11:44 am, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>> As far as I know, there is no real evidence. There is *some*
>>>>> evidence that the Basques were in the Grand Banks around 100
>>>>> years later and it is possible that this long string of quotes
>>>>> goes back to an error of one digit.
>>>
>>>>> As for the settlements in Greenland, I don't believe that there
>>>>> is any evidence that any of them were "pillaged".
>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> --- Paul J. Gans
>>>> One source in Wiki (Jonas Poole,
>>>> ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jonas_Poole) whom I see as
I would also be really interested in any evidence of the Basques
landing cod in quantity around 1000 ce.
Soren
--
Alan Crozier
news:4808403b$0$15876$edfa...@dtext01.news.tele.dk...
Hi Soren,
On the subject of the Basques around that time, I suppose you are aware
that a hitherto undeciphered runic stone (DR 187) in the National Museum
in Copenhagen has recently been interpreted as being written in Basque.
(!)
I haven't yet read the article in which Stig Eliasson makes this
spectacular claim:
Eliasson, Stig. "'The letters make no sense at all ...': Spr�klig
struktur i en 'obegriplig' dansk runinskrift?" In: Nya perspektiv inom
nordisk spr�khistoria: F�redrag h�llna vid ett symposium i Uppsala 20-22
januari 2006, ed. Lennart Elmevik, 45-80. Acta Academiae Regiae Gustavi
Adolphi 97. Uppsala: Kungl. Gustav Adolfs Akademien f�r svensk
folkkultur, 2007.
The characters don't make any sense in any Germanic Romance, Baltic,
Slavic or Celtic language. Only Basque fits, according to Eliasson, who
reads teh inscription thus: "Basa carved these runes for her husband
Etxe�hegi, and Isifus for his aunt Izeba." At this time there was a
small Viking kingdom in the Basque country, which is supposed to explain
the connection.
See
http://web.telia.com/~u31139493/runestones/dr187.htm
http://www.christerhamp.se/runor/gamla/dr/dr187.html
http://www.spr�ktidningen.se/art.lasso?id=08209d
Alan
Jack Linthicum
> Paul J Gans wrote:
That is why I thought the cod bones study was a possible source of
inquiry.
Soren Larsen
> On Apr 18, 2:31 am, "Soren Larsen" <Wagn...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:
>> Paul J Gans wrote:
>>> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> On Apr 17, 3:57 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Apr 16, 11:44 am, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> As far as I know, there is no real evidence. There is *some*
>>>>>>> evidence that the Basques were in the Grand Banks around 100
>>>>>>> years later and it is possible that this long string of quotes
>>>>>>> goes back to an error of one digit.
>>
>>>>>>> As for the settlements in Greenland, I don't believe that there
>>>>>>> is any evidence that any of them were "pillaged".
>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> --- Paul J. Gans
>>>>>> One source in Wiki (Jonas Poole,
>>>>>> ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jonas_Poole) whom I see as
That might tell where the cod was taken, but not by whom or when
for that matter.
It is the very early dating of the Basque fishing cod in quantity around
1000 that interest me.
Jean
Alan Crozier a écrit dans le message ...
>"Soren Larsen" <Wag...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote in message
>news:4808403b$0$15876$edfa...@dtext01.news.tele.dk...
>> Paul J Gans wrote:
>> > Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >> On Apr 17, 3:57 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >>> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >>>> On Apr 16, 11:44 am, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> As far as I know, there is no real evidence. There is *some*
>> >>>>> evidence that the Basques were in the Grand Banks around 100
>> >>>>> years later and it is possible that this long string of quotes
>> >>>>> goes back to an error of one digit.
>> >>>
>> >>>>> As for the settlements in Greenland, I don't believe that there
>> >>>>> is any evidence that any of them were "pillaged".
>> >>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> --- Paul J. Gans
>> >>>> One source in Wiki (Jonas Poole,
>> >>>> ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jonas_Poole) whom I see as
>struktur i en 'obegriplig' dansk runinskrift?" In: Nya perspektiv inom
>januari 2006, ed. Lennart Elmevik, 45-80. Acta Academiae Regiae Gustavi
>folkkultur, 2007.
>
>The characters don't make any sense in any Germanic Romance, Baltic,
>Slavic or Celtic language. Only Basque fits, according to Eliasson, who
>reads teh inscription thus: "Basa carved these runes for her husband
>Etxehegi, and Isifus for his aunt Izeba." At this time there was a
>small Viking kingdom in the Basque country, which is supposed to explain
>the connection.
>
>See
>http://web.telia.com/~u31139493/runestones/dr187.htm
>http://www.christerhamp.se/runor/gamla/dr/dr187.html
>
>Alan
>
The Basque language was not written until the 16th century.
JL
Soren Larsen
> "Soren Larsen" <Wag...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote in message
> news:4808403b$0$15876$edfa...@dtext01.news.tele.dk...
>> Paul J Gans wrote:
>>> Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> On Apr 17, 3:57 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Apr 16, 11:44 am, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> As far as I know, there is no real evidence. There is *some*
>>>>>>> evidence that the Basques were in the Grand Banks around 100
>>>>>>> years later and it is possible that this long string of quotes
>>>>>>> goes back to an error of one digit.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for the settlements in Greenland, I don't believe that there
>>>>>>> is any evidence that any of them were "pillaged".
>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> --- Paul J. Gans
>>>>>> One source in Wiki (Jonas Poole,
>>>>>> ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jonas_Poole) whom I see as
> struktur i en 'obegriplig' dansk runinskrift?" In: Nya perspektiv inom
> 20-22 januari 2006, ed. Lennart Elmevik, 45-80. Acta Academiae Regiae
> folkkultur, 2007.
>
> The characters don't make any sense in any Germanic Romance, Baltic,
> Slavic or Celtic language.
>Only Basque fits, according to Eliasson,
> who reads teh inscription thus: "Basa carved these runes for her
> husband Etxehegi, and Isifus for his aunt Izeba." At this time there
> was a small Viking kingdom in the Basque country, which is supposed
> to explain the connection.
>
> See
> http://web.telia.com/~u31139493/runestones/dr187.htm
> http://www.christerhamp.se/runor/gamla/dr/dr187.html
> http://www.språktidningen.se/art.lasso?id=08209d
Interesting.
The proposed text is of course a standard runestone formula,
so it seems ok.
I would however like more persons capable of reading
medieval basque to confirm the reading.
I have posted a question in dk.kultur.sprog.
Jack Linthicum
It's in Kurlansky's book Cod, etc. first chapter "By the year 1000 the
Basques had greatly expanded the cod markets to a truly international
trade that reached far from the cod's northern habitat."
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>> Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> On Apr 17, 3:57 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Apr 16, 11:44 am, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>> As far as I know, there is no real evidence. There is *some*
>>>>>> evidence that the Basques were in the Grand Banks around 100
>>>>>> years later and it is possible that this long string of quotes
>>>>>> goes back to an error of one digit.
>>>>
>>>>>> As for the settlements in Greenland, I don't believe that there
>>>>>> is any evidence that any of them were "pillaged".
>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> --- Paul J. Gans
>>>>> One source in Wiki (Jonas Poole,
>>>>> ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jonas_Poole) whom I see as
>Soren
All one need do is look at the newly forged harbor records.
Paul J Gans
It is. But there are serious difficulties. For one, it assumes
that the mineral composition of various fishing grounds remained
unchanged with time. For another it assumes that the cod remained
pretty much in one place.
Paul J Gans
I have to confess that I ignored that. There seems to be
no such confirmable information about *ANY* western European
port for a date that early.
As you know, but others seem not to, it is insufficient to
simply assert things about thousand year old events. It is
even insufficient to point to old suppositions that exist
without any real evidence for them.
The worst thing about it is that moderns don't realize *how*
to read medieval records (the few we have). Even the terminology
is suspect. And folks should never forget that writers in this
period were not trying to write "factual" history. They were,
in the main, trying to explain the working of God's will in
the world they lived in.
If that required some embroidery in order to make the message
clear to the reader, then things were embroidered. The writers
were aware that the bible is full of embroidery which they
assumed (and still often do) was there for the same religious
reason.
Paul J Gans
Has he got a footnote?
Jack Linthicum
Not even a good bibliography. I have a question in to the Basque
Library at the University of Nevada, we might see something or
nothing. The problem with the Basques is they seem to have been 1)
Good at harvesting the sea, starting with whales, 2) Able to take
advantage of a situation, Catholics can't eat "meat" on Friday, and 3)
Secretive about their sources.
Inger E. J
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:df96b73e-64c8-4047...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
The basques where in the area of the Grand Banks earlier than assumed they
helped the Norse Greenlanders and those Norse who settled in NA not only
with fishing from 1180's but also with whale hunting.
I thought everyone knew that because that knowledge been around scholars who
worked with documents for trading long before 1372.
Inger E
Jack Linthicum
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelandetnews:df96b73e-64c8-4047...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
You wouldn't, by some miracle, actually have cites for those "scholars
who worked with documents for trading long before 1372" would you? The
actual thing trumps a line in a newsgroup every time.
Soren Larsen
> Soren Larsen <Wag...@yahoo.youknowwhere> wrote:
>
>> It is the very early dating of the Basque fishing cod in quantity
>> around 1000 that interest me.
>
> I have to confess that I ignored that. There seems to be
> no such confirmable information about *ANY* western European
> port for a date that early.
>
> As you know, but others seem not to, it is insufficient to
> simply assert things about thousand year old events. It is
> even insufficient to point to old suppositions that exist
> without any real evidence for them.
One could also wonder how the Basque suddenly came in possession
of seagoing ships with the required carrying capacity, and why they
choce the Great Banks instead of sources closer to home at a time
when there was practically no competition because the market for cod
had only just appeared.
From The Archaeology of Medieval Europe:
"
The importance of sea fishing varied tremendously through space and time in
medieval NorthWest Europe. This has long been suspected from historical
sources, but these mostly postdate the eleventh century (e.g. Holm et al
1996; Starkey et aI 2000; Campbell 2002). Archaeology now aIlows us to trace
the 'history' of sea fishing further back in time and thus to begin to
interpret its ebb and flow in the context of wider socioeconomic
developments. This is possible due to the zooarchaeological study of fish
bones (Barrett et aI 1999; Enghoff 1999; 2000; Perdikaris 1999; Van Neer &
Ervynck 2003; Makowiecki 2003, 195; Barrett et al 2004), and to the
stable-isotope analysis of human bone (Barrett et al 2001; Müldner &
Richards 2005; Barrert & Richards 2004). The former can tell us which sea
fish were being caught and the latter how much marine food was being eaten.
A surprising result of this work has been the recognition of a major
increase in the importance of fishing around, or shortly after, the end of
the first millennium AD. This 'fish-event horizon' involved a major
increase in catches of cod, herring and related species. Many of these were
probably cured for long-range trade, as was the norm in subsequent
centuries.
This is earlier than the first surviving historical evidence for commercial
fishing and may mark the development of trade in high bulk, low value,
staple goods.
Although a widespread phenomenon, the specific chronology of the fish-event
horizon varied from region to region; its causes are thus equally variable.
A general trend has been overwritten by the environmental and historical
contingencies of time and place. In some extremely maritime environments,
such as coastal Arctic Norway, fish (cod in particular) was important
throughout the first millennium, becoming more so at the beginning of the
second as this region entered a pan-European fish trade (Christensen &
Nielssen 1996; Perdikaris 1999). In contexts with greater agricultural
potential, such as England, the transition was more dramatic (Fig 1). Within
a few decades of 1000, the catch of herring probably increased fourfold and
cod were landed on a meaningful scale for the first time (Barrett et al
2004). Here the transition may have been driven by population growth
(particularly in towns; see Dyer 2002), changes in Christian fasting
practices (e.g. following the Benedictine reform of C 970; Barrett et al
2004, 628-30), and human impacts on freshwater ecosystems (reducing the
availability of freshwater fish; Hoffmann 1996).
Orkney, an archipelago off northern Scotland, provides an example between
these extremes. It was part of the Pictish kingdom during the midfirst
millennium, before being settled from Scandinavia, c850 (Graham-Campbell &
Batey 1998). Here marine fishing was probably intensified in two stages:
first, by the introduction of Norwegian food-ways during the Viking period
(Barrett et al 1999; 2001; Cerón-Carrasco 2002); and, second, in response
to the growing export market for dried fish in the eleventh-twelfth
centuries (Barrett 1997; Barrett et al 2000, 15-19). These trends emerge
ftom the analysis of fish bones ftom both domestic middens and
semi-specialised 'fish middens' derived from dried cod production. They are
also implied, however, by analyses of stable carbon and nitrogen isotope
ratios in human bone that show increases in the dietaty importance of fish
through time (Figs 2-3)."
The Basque starting to fish cod for export around 1000 or shortly thereafter
is otoh
perfectly believeable. It would just be nice to see some evidence.
Cheers
Jack Linthicum
> Paul J Gans wrote:
I see where Kurlansky is scheduled to speak at The Queen Elizabeth
Hall on May 20th. Maybe someone interested enough could ask him for
his source. I can't find anything online more precise than a street-
only address in New York.
and a Village Books talk on June 25.
Paul J Gans
The standard sort of evidence one would have in 1000 would most
likely be a mention in a chronicle or in a charter, though unforged
charters from 1000 and before are rare.
The chronicle might make some oblique reference to the abundance
of cod, using a Latin term that *we* interpret as meaning cod.
Or it might make reference to some event affecting the monastery
of the writer (or a neighboring one) that involved the volume of
fish. However, any term involving volume (i.e. number) is suspect.
Terms like "hundreds", "thousands", and "millions" were used int
the sense of "more than a few", "a lot", and "a large number".
Numbers were used to enhance a good story. The ripost of "did you
count them yourself" was regarded as quite silly. Of course the
chronicler did not count them himself but is relying on what he
was told.
The medievals could be quite precise when they needed to be, but
in matters like this...
Jack Linthicum
I seem to remember that one of these off-hand statements was about
charters and rights, probably to either fish or sell fish. If you want
a bit of a jolly, know that the Basque Museum in Boise Idaho is having
an exhibit on Basque Whaling. Reason why the museum is there, 15,000
Basques and descendants live in the area.
a.spencer3
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cd91e84b-00a0-4a05...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
OK - I could Google - but why a concentration of Basques in Idaho? I don't
remember any mass emigrations?
Surreyman
Jack Linthicum
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
Probably started with sheepherding, mining, logging (hard work) grew
on the basis of 'Uncle Matxin and Aunt Eguzine live in Idaho, I'm
going to go the America anyway, I guess I'll go to Idaho'. Alternative
is Reno and the sheep herding area of Nevada. One area of endeavor,
the Basques claim they built Columbus's ships.
Eric Stevens
<a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> I seem to remember that one of these off-hand statements was about
>> charters and rights, probably to either fish or sell fish. If you want
>> a bit of a jolly, know that the Basque Museum in Boise Idaho is having
>> an exhibit on Basque Whaling. Reason why the museum is there, 15,000
>> Basques and descendants live in the area.
>>
>> http://www.basquemuseum.com/
>
>OK - I could Google - but why a concentration of Basques in Idaho? I don't
>remember any mass emigrations?
A good climate for drying fish?
Eric Stevens
Jack Linthicum
> On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:28:28 GMT, "a.spencer3"
>
Even better it has a salt desert, everything but the fish
http://www.cnrhome.uidaho.edu/default.aspx?pid=85873
Jean
Eric Stevens a écrit dans le message
<548n04prgegkb1opk...@4ax.com>...
During the late1950's early 1960's Basque sheep herders were brought to the
American west because the local population did not want to do the job
(sheep herding).
JL
Jack Linthicum
You are off by a hundred years, Basques were herding sheep in
Hollywood in the 1850s. One of the problems with the Basques is their
"multinationality" being listed as Spanish or French. John Adams (he
visted Biskaya in 1779) cited the Basques as an example of democracy
in his speech in defence of the Constitution of the United States. In
1786, he described the Basques as:
“This extraordinary people who have preserved their ancient
language, genius, laws, government and manners longer than any other
nation of Europe…”.
http://www.consulfrance-losangeles.org/article.php3?id_article=304
Jean
Jack Linthicum a écrit dans le message
<5da3c6bb-885b-4189...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>...
Basques may or may not have been herding sheep in Hollywood in the
1850's. Hollywood is not Idaho or Montana. If Adams made those statements
about the Basque he must have had a bad
drinking problem.
What system of laws? Democracy no way!! What government? What art?
What literature?
Genius? What development?
What nonsense!!!!
JL
Jack Linthicum
Ah, another Basque nationalist? Hollywood was just like Idaho and
Montana (It's actually Nevada) then. California was one very large
ranch with very few barriers. It still has the greatest number of
Basques.
On John Adams
Dom
wrote:
> I see the statement that the Basques discovered the Grand Banks
> fishing grounds off Nova Scotia and Newfoundland in 1372. This is from
> wikipedia but the same or nearly same phrase is used in any reference
> to this event:
>
> "Legend, rumor, hearsay, and some archaeological and documentary
> evidence, however, suggest that Basques began dominating the history
> of whaling when they discovered the Grand Banks by 1372. Basque
> fishing, trading, or pirate ships rediscovered and perhaps even
> pillaged the desperately isolated and likely abandoned Viking Eastern
> Settlement on Greenland, probably before 1450. The details of what
> exactly transpired there remain lost to the shroud of time; however,
> the settlement probably disappeared during the 15th century."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_European_maritime_culture
>
> Does anyone know what the 'archeological and documentary evidence'
> for this is?
Quite frankly, I find it difficult to believe that any Europeans were
fishing in the Grand Banks before Columbus. Soon after Cabot's voyage
many groups went fishing for cod there, and the region became known as
Baccalar (Land of Cod). But these were not routine fishing trips. They
lasted for an entire season of about five months. They returned with
large quantities of dried and salted cod, called baccala` in Italian
and by similar names in Spanish and Portuguese.
The July 1985 issue of National Geographic contains a fascinating
article, "16th-Century Basque Whalers in America," about the extensive
operations in Red Bay, Labrador. On page 48, the article states that
researcher Selma Huxley Barkham "identified 12 previously unknown
Basque whaling ports along the Labrador coast. Through painstaking
search and translation of old Basque wills, lawsuits, mortgages, and
insurance policies in more than 20 archives, she drew a detailed
portrait of Basque operations in Terranova over the course of nearly a
century."
If these fishing and whaling operations were occurring before the
voyage of Columbus, why is there no record in "wills, lawsuits,
mortgages, and insurance policies"?
By the way, this 1985 article was completely twisted by Emilia Doyaga,
a professor of humanities at SUNY-Old Westbury. On 23 July 1992, her
letter in The New York Times mentioned voyages to Terranova by "Basque
whalers from the 11th to the 15th centuries." Moreover, she implied
that excavations by Canadian scientists support these claims.
Jack Linthicum
First, the Canadians have drawn a line at 1500, no Canadian article
will admit any Basque or other non-French in the Grand Banks before
1500. Second, how many "wills, lawsuits, mortgages, and insurance
policies" have you read in Basque?
Dom
I have not read any, and I do not understand your question. It was not
my intention to support the twisted claims of Emilia Doyaga and
others. The July 1985 National Geographic article that I mentioned is
"16th-Century Basque Whalers in America."
Jack Linthicum
Basques, if you believe them, kept the secret of the Grand Banks for
at least 120 years. They did not announce that they had found the rich
supply of cod to the rest of the world. C. Columbus found some
scraggly little islands and came back announcing it to the world.
I don't know anything about Ms. Doyaga but you have to remember the
Basques built C. Columbus's ships and furnished much of the crews on
the various voyages including the navigator on the first voyage, Juan
de Lakotsa.
Dom
Supposedly fishermen from Bristol, among other places, kept the same
"secret" for many years. The Spring 1992 issue of American Educator
contains the essay "The Columbus Controversy" by Stephan Thernstrom, a
history professor at Harvard. On page 29 Thernstrom casually wrote the
fanciful claim: "British fishermen were taking catches off the coast
of Newfoundland in the 1480s."
> I don't know anything about Ms. Doyaga but you have to remember the
> Basques built C. Columbus's ships and furnished much of the crews on
> the various voyages including the navigator on the first voyage, Juan
> de Lakotsa.
Although Columbus is the one who formulated and was relentless in
promoting his "Empresa de las Indias," the success of the epic
crossing of the Atlantic Ocean is indeed due to the entire crew of
highly skilled sailors, pilots and captains--especially the Pinzon and
Niño brothers.
Inger E. J
"Dom" <DR...@teikyopost.edu> skrev i meddelandet
news:b9088dd2-7dad-484d...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
IEJ: First of all I think it's best to tell you all that the fleet fishing
in the Grand Banks not only in 1372 but before and later was called 'St
Olov's fleet'. That fleet sailed from Lynn and Orkney westward to the Grand
Banks. Basques had helped the Norwegians (observe that Norse is a too wide
epitét) from 12th c. The Bristol connection and the only Bristol connection
was the merchandiser Richard Curtey and his ancestors. He was the only one
from Bristol who was allowed to participate in trade with the Hansa who from
time to time tried to be the only one allowed to sail dried fish from
Norweigan harbor to England. One of the Diplomas is Diplomatarium Norvegicum
bind 19 no 572. (origin in Close Rolls 25 Edw.III, m 13)./IEJ
Alan Crozier
news:ZdTRj.6736$R_4....@newsb.telia.net...
> IEJ: First of all I think it's best to tell you all that the fleet
fishing
> in the Grand Banks not only in 1372 but before and later was called
'St
> Olov's fleet'. That fleet sailed from Lynn and Orkney westward to the
Grand
> Banks. Basques had helped the Norwegians (observe that Norse is a too
wide
> epitét) from 12th c. The Bristol connection and the only Bristol
connection
> was the merchandiser Richard Curtey and his ancestors. He was the only
one
> from Bristol who was allowed to participate in trade with the Hansa
who from
> time to time tried to be the only one allowed to sail dried fish from
> Norweigan harbor to England. One of the Diplomas is Diplomatarium
Norvegicum
> bind 19 no 572. (origin in Close Rolls 25 Edw.III, m 13)./IEJ
Any idea why Hansa merchants killed Curteys in Sluys?
Alan
Inger E. J
"Alan Crozier" <name1...@telia.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:SIURj.6739$R_4....@newsb.telia.net...
Ideas yes, answers no. Idea derives from facts in Bergen and the hard
confrotation between the Norwegians in Bergen and the Hansa. What was up in
that was the fact that the Norwegians allowed the Norwegian 'King' of Man
and the Earl of Orkney as well as some ship-owners from Lynn and Boston to
participate in the St Olov's fleet fishing outside NA coast especially in
the Grand Banks and southwest of Greenland close to Buffins islands. They
were allowed to sail back selling among other cargo walrus and sobel (!) to
the English King. That was due to an agreement after an earlier English King
had asked for the hand of a Norwegian Erik's daughter, King of Norway.
Anyhow the Hansa wasn't too keen of the direct contact between the
Norwegians and the English. It was that fact that later made the Hansa to
put their trade office in Lynn under the Hansa Office in Bergen. The later
happened after the Hansa managed to take control in Bergen. (If they hadn't
put Bergen on fire, we might have had more documentation of Greenlanders
saved to our days.)
Inger E
Dom
> "Dom" <DR...@teikyopost.edu> skrev i meddelandetnews:b9088dd2-7dad-484d...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...[snip]
Following Cabot's voyage, the Portuguese were the first to establish
major fishing operations in the Grand Banks. In 1452 the Portuguese
had discovered Flores and Corvo, the westernmost Azores Islands. Corvo
is only 1,054 miles from Newfoundland. During the next 40 years, the
Portuguese made numerous attempts to sail westward from Corvo but were
unsuccessful because of the strong headwinds of this region. In my
opinion, it is much too farfetched for anyone to claim that the
Portuguese would not have known about the fishing operations of 'St
Olov's fleet' in the Grand Banks.
Johansson Inger E
IEJ: Your opinion is wrong in this case. It was officially up in two
weddings to be between the Royals of Portugal and the Royals of Denmark. One
of the negotians ended up with the joint sailing westward under command of
Pothurst and Pinning 1477/78. But it was two generations before the
Portugesean Royal Family got their information due to an early Royal
intermarriage. Look closer at the documents made up before that
marriage./IEJ
erilar
<09015f45-0f7d-456f...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I see the statement that the Basques discovered the Grand Banks
> fishing grounds off Nova Scotia and Newfoundland in 1372. This is from
> wikipedia but the same or nearly same phrase is used in any reference
> to this event
I thought it was even earlier, but don't know where to look it up. I'm
not home, for one thing 8-)
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is
that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
erilar
<cd560397-341f-4858...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
Dom <DR...@teikyopost.edu> wrote:
> If these fishing and whaling operations were occurring before the
> voyage of Columbus, why is there no record in "wills, lawsuits,
> mortgages, and insurance policies"?
You're going to publish the location of your gold strike?????
erilar
Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote:
> Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >That is why I thought the cod bones study was a possible source of
> >inquiry.
>
> It is. But there are serious difficulties. For one, it assumes
> that the mineral composition of various fishing grounds remained
> unchanged with time. For another it assumes that the cod remained
> pretty much in one place.
The latter thought strikes me as funny 8-) But then, I'm still not
quite back on US time 8-)
erilar
Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote:
> John Kane <jrkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Have fun in Kalamazoo.
>
> Shall do. Renia has already commissioned me to report as often
> as I can. Given the state of the wine freely served, I may
> require hazardous duty pay.
No one who likes good wine could drink too much there, free or not! And
I've recently been sampling the Real Thing in various places far from
Kzoo. I'll be there, too, however.
Dom
> In article
> <cd560397-341f-4858-860c-8cc415c85...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Dom <DR...@teikyopost.edu> wrote:
> > If these fishing and whaling operations were occurring before the
> > voyage of Columbus, why is there no record in "wills, lawsuits,
> > mortgages, and insurance policies"?
>
> You're going to publish the location of your gold strike?????
In 2004 I visited various museums in Newfoundland. I saw numerous 16th-
century drawings of seasonal cod-fishing settlements. The details were
incredible: the sheds where the fishermen slept, the shed where the
cases of salt were kept, the press for making cod oil, the area where
the cod was dried, etc. If These operations had been taking place
since the 1300s, John Cabot would have found all sorts of evidence in
1497. Also, note that all five of Cabot's ships were lost during his
second voyage in 1498. In view of all the "wills, lawsuits, mortgages,
and insurance policies" that exist for the 16th-century, how come none
have been found for prior centuries?
Johansson Inger E
IEJ: How about taking a new look at documents in English archieves from 1304
to 1470 for shipdocuments of fish, stockfish and sild (herring) delivered on
Norwegian, Orkney Islands' and Icelandic ships? How about looking on which
type of whales they also traded. Some not existing other than in the areas
of NA./IEJ
Eric Stevens
wrote:
Hmm. That's arguing from incredulity. Not a very strong argument.
Eric Stevens
Johansson Inger E
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:kcl524pdcbspaed2b...@4ax.com...
Problem is that the museums in Newfoundland don't acknowledge the existens
of more than 100 tradedocuments not to mention all shipspaperdocumentation
for the cod in question to have been traded via Greenland to Lynn, London
and Bristol from 1305 to 1470..... There are still those who tries to
believe that keeping silent of existing documents might make them
disapear..... :-)
Inger E
Dom
wrote:
> "Eric Stevens" <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> skrev i meddelandetnews:kcl524pdcbspaed2b...@4ax.com...
Inger, Do you have any evidence that this trade "via Greenland"
originated in Newfoundland? The 16th-century seasonal fishing trips to
Newfoundland lasted for 5 or six months. If this was occurring since
the 1300s, how come Cabot and subsequently the Portuguese did not find
any evidence of these fishing settlements?
Johansson Inger E
IEJ: South of Newfoundland as well as west of. In the later case I have
knowledge, proof if you so want, of five Scandinaivan settlements type we
here call 'tomtningar'.
Guess I first have to describe what a 'tomtning' is. One example of it can
be seen in following url from an excursion on Hallands Väderö. The excursion
was lead by Viktor Svedberg on our Riksantikvarieämbetet. The example in
question is an medieval, early to late medieval, type of 'tomtning'; which
in this case also show rests of a house ruin.
http://www.shvn.kajen.com/exkursion.shtml
the example is this image:
<www.shvn.kajen.com/bilder/arsmote000722_2.JPG>
an other example:
http://blueskagerrak.bohusmus.se/bohusmus/www-blue/92/9263.htm
an other here:
http://www3.harnosand.se/kommun/kulturmiljo/fiske_forntida_fiske.htm
with or without housegrounds these 'tomtningar' always have ruins of old
cooking-pits where fish, seals and sometimes whale cooking can be tracked
(not in the examples above).
In Labrador and Buffin Island, Ruin Islands and Ellesmere Islands, alike
types by NA scholars have been belived to be from Late Dorset not only have
showed 'Norse' Viking to late Medieval artifacts, but two of those from
Labrador can be seen as two of the five 'Norwegeian' settlements marked on
Desliens' map discussed here in group ca 5 to 10 years ago.
South of Newfoundland there was an area called Boston (!) in 1300's which by
describtion seems to have been not far from the Boston of NA we know today.
For the moment I am trying to eliminate alternatives to the 'sobel'(eng.
sable) fur traded via Greenland which from 1200's on were sent to Bergen,
Orkney, Lynn and London.
Inger E