Parentage of Sir William de Cantelowe, Steward of the King's Household (died 1239)
Douglas Richardson
Many members of the newsgroup descend from the baronial Cantelowe
family. In the past, various questions have arisen here on the
newsgroup as to the parentage of Sir William de Cantelowe, Steward of
the King's Household, who died in 1239. To my knowledge, to date no
one has conclusively identified Sir William's correct parentage.
The industry standard, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, has a
good biography of Sir Wiliam de Cantelowe. Regarding Sir William's
parentage, the following information is provided:
"Cantilupe [Cantelupe], William (I) de (d. 1239), baron and
administrator, was of Norman descent, probably the son of Walter de
Cantilupe, in 1166 a minor landholder in Essex and Lincolnshire." END
OF QUOTE.
In recent time (2007), Katherine A. Hanna has published a helpful
work, The Christchurch Priory Cartulary (Hampshire Record Series, Vol.
18). On page 169, a charter of Walter de Cantelowe naming his wife,
Amice, and son and heir, William, is presented. A second son, Robert,
serves as a witness.
"522. [13th Century, before 1271, possibly before 1254]
GRANT, in pure and perpetual alms, by Walter de Cantelupo - for the
salvation of his soul and those of his wife, Amicia, his son and heir
William de Cantelupo, his other children and his ancestors - to
Christchurch Priory, of 1/2 mark a year from his rent at Leigh (Lega),
viz. 20d. to be paid each quarter by Sampson de Lega and his heirs.
Witnesses: Robert de Cantelupo, his son, Robert de Cantelupo [sic] and
others." END OF QUOTE.
The grantor is doubtless the Walter de Cantelowe involved in a
Somerset fine dated 3 John [1201-2]. As such, the charter is badly
dated by the editor, as it would date from long before 1254. The
editor supposes that Walter de Cantelowe's son and heir, William, is
the same person as the William de Cantelowe "who held the manor of
Barwick in Dorset in 1251-2 and who died about Michaelmas 1254 (Book
of Fees, II, pp. 1260, 1266)." Actually the William de Cantelowe who
died in 1254 was this Walter de Cantelowe's grandson, he being the son
and heir of Walter's son and heir, William.
There are three additional records of this same family which were
published many years ago in Two Cartularies of the Augustinian Priory
of Bruton & Cluniac Priory of Montacute (Somerset Rec. Soc. 8) (1894):
158, 159. These records were overlooked by both ODNB and by Ms.
Hanna. These items may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nuj3FKBDcw4C&pg=PA158
The first record there is an undated charter of William, son of Walter
de Cantelupe, concerning the gift, grant, and confirmation of ten
shillings coming from Samson his free man at Legh. This grant was
made with the consent of William his son and heir. Witnesses include
Walter le Poer; Gilbert de Sai; Jordan Oliver; Jordan de Alneto;
William Haketh, Randulph, serjeant of Berwic, etc. Samson "his free
man at Legh" is surely the same person as Sampson de Lega mentioned in
Walter de Cantelowe's charter above.
The second record is undated charter of William, son of William de
Cantelowe, confirming the gift of his father, William de Cantelowe.
Same witnesses as the first record above.
The third record is an undated letter of the aforesaid William son of
Walter de Cantelupe to the said Sampson de Legh to secure payment of
the said ten shillings.
While these items are all undated, I note that Randolph, serjeant of
Berwik, is one of the witnesses. I assume Berwik here mentioned is
the same place as Barwick, Somerset. Another witness, Walter le Poer,
is likely the man of that man who who was employed in various missions
in Warwickshire and Worcestershire im 1215; he was Sheriff of Devon in
1222, and a collector of the fifteenth in Worcestershire in 1226. In
the last year he was justice itinerant in Gloucestershire, and in 1227
held the same post for the counties of Oxford, Hereford, and Salop. A
third witness, Jordan Oliver, is likely the man of that name who held
the manor of Wambrook, Somerset, whose son, also named Jordan Oliver,
was a justice in eyre and sheriff of Somerset and Dorset in 1239–40.
A fourth witness may be the William Haketh, Knt., who issued a charter
dated 1241 naming Fulk de Cantelowe [see Bates Two Cartularies of the
Benedictine Abbeys of Muchelney & Athelney (Somerset Rec. Soc. 14)
(1899): 71]. A fifth witness, Jordan de Alneto, is presumably the man
of that name who was living in 1226, holding a Somerset manor.
Given these records, it seems apparent that Sir William de Cantelowe
(died 1239) was the son and heir of Walter de Cantelowe (living
1201-2), by his wife, Amice. Sir William de Cantelowe's younger
brother, Robert de Cantelowe, is presumably the man of that name who
was ancestor of the cadet Cantelowe family seated at Chilton
Cantelowe, Somerset.
When replying, please provide your sources and weblinks if you have
them.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
It appears that Sir William de Cantelowe (died 1239) was correctly
identified as the son of Walter de Cantelowe in the book, Household
Knights of King John by S.D. Church (published in 1999), page 26.
However, it is uncertain what sources Mr. Church used to make that
identification. Whatever sources Mr. Church used, he evidently did
not use the four documents I posted as my sources for the
identification of Sir William de Cantelowe's parents, Walter and
Amice.
On page 27, Mr. Church discusses Robert Barat, who was a member of the
royal household before 1209. Robert Barat was described as William de
Cantelowe's brother on a number of occasions. In Jan. 1223 William de
Cantelowe was given custody of Robert's son and heir, later named as
Eustace de Cantelowe. Mr. Church says that Robert Barat "seems to
have been a son of Walter de Cantilupe." He adds: "It is unclear why
Robert should take a name other than that of his father, especially as
he passed the Cantilupe name onto his son [Eustace]. Perhaps he was
an illegitimate son of Walter de Cantilupe." Yet the charter I posted
from Christchurch Cartularly refers to Robert as "Robert de
Cantelupo," so Robert was evidently known as both Robert Barat and as
Robert de Cantelowe.
There is an interesting discussion of Robert Barat's son and heir,
Eustace de Cantelowe, of Barby, Northamptonshire, Lubbesthorpe,
Leicestershire, Basford, Nottinghamshire, etc., in Farrer, Honors &
Knights Fees (1923): 171–173. This material may be viewed at the
following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3GO7AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA172
Farrer mistakenly identifies Eustace as the brother of Sir William de
Cantelowe (died 1239), whereas he was actually his nephew as Church
has pointed out. Farrer also indicates that Eustace de Cantelowe
occurs in one record as Eustace Barad. Farrer states that Eustace de
Cantelowe married Katherine de Lisle, daughter of Hugh de Lisle, of
Barby, Northamptonshire, Lubbesthorpe, Leicestershire, and Thorpe in
the Glebe, Nottinghamshire. This couple had no issue. In 1241
Eustace was sued by Walter de Grendale, who claimed 10 carucates in
Barby, Nothamptonshire and the advowson of the church and the manor of
Lubbesthorpe, Leicestershire and 3 virgates there as his right. In
1242 he had a respite of knighthood. In 1246 William de Harcourt,
parson of the church of Ayleston, and all his successors were adjudged
to do to Eustace de Cantelowe and his heirs the service of 1/40 fee
for 1 virgate in Lubbesthorpe, Leicestershire, which service had
always been done to Aveline, late wife of Hugh de Lisle, who had held
the manor of Lubbesthorpe in dower of the inheritance of the said
Eustace, and also to William de Cantelowe in the name of custody of
the said Eustace. In 1252, Eustace de Cantelowe being deceased
without issue, the king restored to William de Cantelowe and his
heirs, as their inheritance, the lands of the said Eustace in the
manors of Barby, Lubbesthorpe, and Basford.
I should point out that the William de Cantelowe mentioned by Farrer
as living in 1252 was the first cousin of Eustace de Cantelowe
(otherwise Eustace Barad), he being the son of Eustace's uncle,
William de Cantelowe, who died in 1239.
The above information makes it clear that Robert Barat (or Cantelowe),
younger brother of Sir William de Cantelowe, was not the ancestor of
the cadet branch of the Cantelowe family seated at Chilton Cantelowe,
Somerset. The above information also makes it certain that the
charter of Walter de Cantelowe to Christchurch Priory which I gave in
my first post dates from in or before 1223, as in that year, Walter's
son, Robert, who witnessed Walter's charter, was deceased as shown by
Church.
Douglas Richardson
For interest's sake, I've posted below a list of of the enormous
number of 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir
William de Cantelowe (died 1239), son and heir of Walter and Amice de
Cantelowe:
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Barbara Aubrey, Elizabeth Alsop, William
Asfordby, Frances Baldwin, Charles Barnes, Christopher Batt, Henry &
Thomas Batte, Anne Baynton, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William
Bernard, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston,
Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier,
George, Giles & Robert Brent, Thomas Bressey, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen
Bull, Edward Bromfield, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth and Thomas
Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew
Clarkson, James & Norton Claypoole, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd,
William Crymes, James Cudworth, Thomas Culpeper, Francis Dade,
Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Anne Derehaugh,
Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John
Fisher, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye,
Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Henry
Isham, Edmund Jennings, Edmund, Edward, Richard & Matthew Kempe, Mary
Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel
Littleton, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow,
Simon Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth
& John Mansfield, Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More,
Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson,
Ellen Newton, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard Palgrave,
Richard Parker, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, Henry & William
Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine
Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey
Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, John Stratton, James
Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey, Jemima Waldegrave, John & Lawrence
Washington, Olive Welby, John West, Mary Wolseley, Hawte Wyatt, Henry
Wyche.
Do you see your ancestor listed here? If so, I'd enjoy hearing from
you here on the newsgroup. If you have the information, feel free to
post your line of descent from Sir William de Cantelowe down to your
immigrant ancestor.
Peasant
A nice piece of work. I have a question, though, whether there were 3
William Cantelowes who died 1239-1254, rather than 2. According to
Cawley (I know, he's to be taken with caution), William son of William
son of Walter died 1251 as recorded in the Annals of Tewkesbury p.143.
(URL http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm#_Toc272563991)
Then, says Cawley, that William's son William died at Calstone 25 Sep.
1254 and was buried at Studley Priory, Warwickshire. He doesn't give
a source for this record.
In Cawley's own quotations I see at least one difficulty with his
interpretation: The 1255 death record of Eva de Briouse, wife of the
younger William, calls her "uxor Willelmi de Cantilupo” --not vidua,
which she would be if he'd died the previous year. Possibly the 1251
or the 1254 record for William is misdated and they are actually
duplicates?
Douglas Richardson
< Dear Douglas,
<
< A nice piece of work. I have a question, though, whether there were
3
< William Cantelowes who died 1239-1254, rather than 2. According to
< Cawley (I know, he's to be taken with caution), William son of
William
< son of Walter died 1251 as recorded in the Annals of Tewkesbury p.
143.
< (URLhttp://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/
> Then, says Cawley, that William's son William died at Calstone 25 Sep.
< 1254 and was buried at Studley Priory, Warwickshire. He doesn't
give
< a source for this record.
Dear Peasant ~
There were three successive William de Cantelowe's and here are their
dates of death:
1. William de Cantelowe I - died 7 April 1239 (Source: ODNB). He
married Masceline de Bracy.
2. William de Cantelowe II - died 5 March 1250/1 (Source: Luard
Annales Monastici 1 (Rolls Ser. 36) (1864): 143 (Tewkesbury Annals sub
5 March 1250/1: “Died ... William de Cantelowe in St. Peter's
Cathedral, Pershore Abbey [Worcestershire] 5 March [1250/1].”). He
married (1st) Milicent de Gournay, and (2nd) Maud Fitz Geoffrey.
3. William de Cantelowe III - died 25 September 1254 (Source: ODNB).
He married Eve de Brewes.
In my earlier posts, I stated that William de Cantelowe II died in
1254, whereas the correct date of his death is 1251. It was William
de Cantelowe III who died in 1254.
Likewise, it was William de Cantelowe III who was heir in 1252 to his
cousin, Eustace de Cantelowe (or Barad). They were first cousins once
removed, not first cousins as I stated. Thank you for catching my
error. Much appreciated.
Like Mr. Church, I'm unable to explain the secondary surname, Barat or
Barad, used by Robert de Cantelowe and his son, Eustace.
J Cook
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> For interest's sake, I've posted below a list of of the enormous
> number of 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir
> William de Cantelowe (died 1239), son and heir of Walter and Amice de
> Cantelowe:
>
I am descended from at least two of these people (Bolles / Dudley),
but I have a third descent in my notes, based most recently on work by
Kirk in his recent NEHGR article:
1. William de C.
2. William de C.m. Eva de Braose
3. Milicent de C. m. Eudo de Zouche
4. Eve la Zouche m. Maurice de Berkeley
5. Isabel de Berkeley m. Robert de Clifford
6. Roger de Clifford m. Maud de Beauchamp
7. Katherine de Clifford m. Ralph de Greystoke
8. Maud de Greystoke m. Eudes Welles
9. Lionel Welles m. Joan Waterton
10. Margaret Welles m. Thomas Dymoke
11. Jane Dymoke m. John Fulnetby
12. Katherine Fulnetby m. William Dynwell
13. Anne Dynewell m. Henry Whitgift
14. William Whitgift
15. Elizabeth Whitgift m. Wymond Bradbury
16. Thomas Bradbury b.1610/11, New World immigrant.
J Cook
> On Dec 4, 1:11 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> > For interest's sake, I've posted below a list of of the enormous
> > number of 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir
> > William de Cantelowe (died 1239), son and heir of Walter and Amice de
> > Cantelowe:
>
> I am descended from at least two of these people (Bolles / Dudley),
> but I have a third descent in my notes, based most recently on work by
> Kirk in his recent NEHGR article:
>
Oh. also Mary Gye I am descended from; but I have no descent from
William de C. in my notes, and neither does Genealogics it seems. Is
this connection in any of your books?
Thanks,
Joe
Douglas Richardson
S.D. Church, Household Knights of King John (1999), pg. 27 states that
William de Cantelowe's brother, Robert Barat (or Robert de Cantelowe),
had a brother named Roger Orgete. This is discussed at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=cfxyoypOJeAC&pg=PA27
Here is a contemporary record in which Robert Barat and Roger Orget
are styled "brothers" in 1210, thus conffirming Mr, Church's
statement.
Hardy, Rotuli de liberate, ac de misis, et praestitis, regnante
Johanne (1844): 189, which item may be viewed at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=yKEUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA189
I'd be tempted to think that Robert Barat (also known as Robert de
Cantelowe) and Roger Orget were half-brothers. Yet, here is a record
in which Roger Orget is styled "brother" of William de Cantelowe. Mr.
Church evidently overlooked this record:
Calendar of Close Rolls, 1227-1231 (1902): 426. This item may be
viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=yKEUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA189
And, here is a record in which Robert Barad is styled "son" of Walter
de Cantelowe. This record also appears to have been overlooked by Mr.
Church.
Calendar Charter Rolls, 4 (1912): 247. This item may be viewed at the
following weblink:
So we come full circle. I can not explain the secondary surnames,
Barat or Orget. Whatever the explanation, the evidence is clear that
Walter de Cantelowe had three sons, William de Cantelowe (his son and
heir), Robert Barat (or de Cantelowe), and Roger Orget.
Douglas Richardson
In my post just now, I gave the wrong weblink for Calendar of Close
Rolls, 1227-1231 (1902): 426. Mea culpa. The correct weblink is:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6WRnAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA426
On page 255 of the same Close Rolls volume, Nichole de Wanneville is
styled "sister" [sorori] of William de Cantelowe in 1229. This item
may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6WRnAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA255
So we now have two brothers and one sister for William de Cantelowe
(died 1239). Can any anyone identity Nichole de Wanneville's husband?
John Watson
Douglas,
There is another explanation of why William de Cantilupe's brother was
called Robert Barat or Baret. He could be the half-brother of William,
a son of Amice's first marriage to a Baret. Robert Barat certainly
appears in official records under that name, until his death.
On 31 January 1223, William de Cantilupo was given custody of the land
in Northamptonshire of Robert Barat his brother, which he held in
chief, until the full age of the heirs of Robert with the marriages of
the heirs.
Thomas Dufus Hardy, Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum in Turri Londinensi
Asservati, Vol. 1 (1833) p. 531b
Regards,
John
Douglas Richardson
< There is another explanation of why William de Cantilupe's brother
was
< called Robert Barat or Baret. He could be the half-brother of
William,
< a son of Amice's first marriage to a Baret. Robert Barat certainly
< appears in official records under that name, until his death.
Good point, John, except that Roibert Barat occurs as Robert de
Cantelowe in his father's charter to Christchurch Priory, and he is
called "Robert Barat son of Walter de Cantelowe" in the Charter
Rolls. So Robert Barat was definitely the son of Walter de Cantelowe.
And, this doesn't explain how Robert Barat and William de Cantelowe
had a brother named Roger Orget. Conceivably Roger Orget could be an
older half-brother to WIlliam and Robert, except the chronology
doesn't seem to support that idea. William de Cantelowe first
surfaces in 1198, whereas Robert Barat and Roger Orget don't surface
until 1209. This would suggest that William was the older brother,
followed by Robert and Roger. William is definitely called Walter's
son and heir in his charter to Christchurch Priory. That certainly
agrees with the order of the appearance of the three brothers in the
records.
In a similar vein, Robert Barat's son, Eustace de Cantelowe, was still
a minor in 1223, whereas it seems certain that William de Cantelowe's
son and heir, William II, was of age before 1225.
John P. Ravilious
>
> - Show quoted text -
-----------------------------------
Dear John, Doug, et al.,
It is clear that Robert Barat (aka de Cantelupo) and Roger Orgete
were identified as brothers, and that they were individually
identified as brothers of William de Cantilupo (d. 1239). It was not
unheard of for a son (younger or otherwise) to take the surname of his
mother during this period - perhaps due to perceived higher status in
some cases or lands assigned by the mother in others, but frequently
for reasons not known to the modern observer.
Given that Robert Barat was also called de Cantelupo, as was his
son Eustace, it is probable that he and William de Cantelupo were full
brothers. The name of Roger Orgete (evidently dsp 1230 or shortly
before) would then hint of his being a half-brother of the two -
presumably uterine, but this is placing a guess on top of a
conjecture.
Roger Orgete's tenure of Bowden Magna and Market Harborough,
Leicestershire was unfortunately the product of his brother William de
Cantelupo's favour, otherwise some hint of his origin might have
already been found. If other avenues of research into this area are
noted, hopefully this will be made available in the near future.
Cheers,
John
John Watson
Hi Douglas,
William de Cantilupe I also had a brother Roger who wanted to marry
the widow of Hugh de Hastings in 1201.
Rotuli de Oblatís et Fíníbus in Turri Londinensi Asservati (1835) p.
195
http://www.archive.org/stream/rotulideoblatse00johngoog#page/n260/mode/1up
Regards,
John
John Watson
>
> Regards,
>
> John
Hi John and Douglas,
I guess this could be the same Roger as Roger Orgat, but here he is
called de Cantilupo.
Regards,
John
John Watson
Douglas,
There is a case in the Curia Regis Rolls of 1201, where Walter de
Cantilupe claimed the vill of Chilton Cantelo (Chilleton) Somerset
against Robert de Cantilupe [who I take to be his uncle]. The father
of Walter de Cantilupe is named as William de Cantilupe. This William
was said to be seised of Chilton Cantelo in the time of king Henry II.
(Curia Regis Rolls, ii, 29)
I presume that this William de Cantilupe was a son or grandson of
Alexander de Cantilupe who gave land in Bruton to the Priory of Bruton
in 1146. (Somerset Record Soc., viii, 105)
Regards,
John
Joe Cochoit
The entry John Watson refers to (Curia Regis Rolls, ii, p. 29) is here
http://tinyurl.com/3y8ggu9 . Does this entry state their relationship?
And the dispute (if that is what it was) was settled with Walter de
Cantilupe acknowledging Robert de Cantilupe as lord of Childeton
(Chilton Cantelo) in exchange for 28 marks. (Somerset Feet of Fines
1196-1307, p. 15 http://tinyurl.com/29828mw )
Joe
Joe Cochoit
>
> Oh. also Mary Gye I am descended from; but I have no descent from
> William de C. in my notes, and neither does Genealogics it seems. Is
> this connection in any of your books?
>
> Thanks,
> Joe
Joe,
The descent to Mary Gye that I have goes:
William de Cantilupe
William de Cantilupe m. Eva de Broase
Henry de Hastings m. Joan de Cantilupe
John de Hastings m. Isabel de Despenser
Hugh de Hastings m. Margery Foliot
Robert de la Mare m. Maud de Hastings
Sir John Roches m. Willema de la Mare
Nicholas Baynton m. Joan Roches
John Baynton m. Joan
Henry Baynton
Thomas Prowse m. Jane Baynton
John Gye m. Mary Prowse
Robert Gye m. Grace Dowrish
Mary Gye
The generations from Mary Gye to Joan de Cantilupe all are found in
Doug's Magna Carta Ancestry
Joe Cochoit
Douglas Richardson
Below is a provisional family pedigree for the baronial Cantelowe
family.
The Cantelowe family of Snitterfield, Warwickshire has not been placed
in the pedigree, nor has the Cantelowe family of Chilton Cantelo,
Somerset.
Nichole, wife of _____ Marmion and Geoffrey de Lucy, was probably a
daughter of William de Cantelowe, died 1239, or possibly William de
Cantelowe, died 1251.
Comments are invited. When replying, please cite your sources and
provide weblinks if you have them.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
CANTELOWE FAMILY
1. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, married _____.
2. WALTER DE CANTELOWE, living 1216, married AMICE _____.
3. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, died 1239, married MASCELINE (or
MAZRA) DE BRACY.
4. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, Knt., died 1251, married (1st) c.
1215/6 MILICENT DE GOURNAY; (2nd) after 1232 MAUD FITZ GEOFFREY, died
1261.
5 (by1). WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, Knt.,died 1254,
married before 1241 EVE DE BREWES.
6. GEORGE DE CANTELOWE
5 (by1). JOHN DE CANTELOWE.
5 (by1). NICHOLAS DE CANTELOWE.
5 (by1). [MASTER] THOMAS DE CANTELOWE, Archdeacon of
Stafford, Bishop of Hereford, died 1282.
5 (by1). [MASTER] HUGH DE CANTELOWE, Archdeacon of
Gloucester, Papal chaplain, Treasurer of Salisbury, living 1270.
5 (by1). AGNES DE CANTELOWE, married ROBERT DE SAINT
JOHN, of Basing, Hampshire.
5 (by1). JULIANE DE CANTELOWE, married ROBERT DE
TREGOZ, of Ewyas Harold, Herefordshire [see ].
4. [MASTER] WALTER DE CANTELOWE, Bishop of Worcester, died
1266.
3. ROBERT DE CANTELOWE (also known as ROBERT BARAT), died c.
1223
4. EUSTACE DE CANTELOWE (or EUSTACE BARET), died c.1252, of
Barby, Northamptonshire, Lubbesthorpe, Leicestershire, Basford,
Nottinghamshire, etc., son and heir, minor in 1223. He married
KATHERINE DE LISLE.
3. ROGER ORGET, living 1230
3. NICHOLE DE CANTELOWE, living 1229, married _____ DE
WANNEVILLE.
3. SIBYL DE CANTELOWE, married GEOFFREY PAUNCEFOTE, living
1242.
3. ISABEL DE CANTELOWE (probable daughter), living 1245,
married (1st) STEPHEN DEVEREUX, died 1228, of Lyonshall and Frome
Herbert; (2nd) RALPH DE PEMBRIDGE (or PENEBRUG).
4. WILLIAM DEVEREUX.
2. FULK DE CANTELOWE, Knt., of Calstone Wellington, Wiltshire, died
c.1234.
Douglas Richardson
Below is a provisional family pedigree for the baronial Cantelowe
family.
The Cantelowe family of Snitterfield, Warwickshire has not been placed
in the pedigree, nor has the Cantelowe family of Chilton Cantelo,
Somerset.
Nichole, wife of _____ Marmion and Geoffrey de Lucy, was probably a
daughter of William de Cantelowe, died 1239, or possibly William de
Cantelowe, died 1251.
Comments are invited. When replying, please cite your sources and
provide weblinks if you have them.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
CANTELOWE FAMILY
1. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, married _____.
2. WALTER DE CANTELOWE, living 1216, married AMICE _____.
3. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, died 1239, married MASCELINE (or
MAZRA) DE BRACY.
4. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, Knt., died 1251, married (1st) c.
1215/6 MILICENT DE GOURNAY; (2nd) after 1232 MAUD FITZ GEOFFREY, died
1261.
5 (by1). WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, Knt.,died 1254, married
before 1241 EVE DE BREWES.
6. GEORGE DE CANTELOWE, b. 1252, d. 1273,
married MARGARET DE LACY.
6. JOAN DE CANTELOWE
John Watson
> On Dec 5, 12:22 am, John Watsonbegin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting<watsonjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Douglas,
>
> > There is a case in the Curia Regis Rolls of 1201, where Walter de
> > Cantilupe claimed the vill of Chilton Cantelo (Chilleton) Somerset
> > against Robert de Cantilupe [who I take to be his uncle]. The father
> > of Walter de Cantilupe is named as William de Cantilupe. This William
> > was said to be seised of Chilton Cantelo in the time of king Henry II.
> > (Curia Regis Rolls, ii, 29)
>
> > I presume that this William de Cantilupe was a son or grandson of
> > Alexander de Cantilupe who gave land in Bruton to the Priory of Bruton
> > in 1146. (Somerset Record Soc., viii, 105)
>
> > Regards,
>
> > John
>
>
> And the dispute (if that is what it was) was settled with Walter de
> Cantilupe acknowledging Robert de Cantilupe as lord of Childeton
> (Chilton Cantelo) in exchange for 28 marks. (Somerset Feet of Fines
> 1196-1307, p. 15http://tinyurl.com/29828mw)
>
> Joe
Hi Joe,
No their relationship is not stated, as I said in my post, I guess
Robert is Walter's uncle.
"Robert acknowledged all the said vill to be the right of Walter" -
meaning that when Robert died it would revert to Walter or his heirs.
Regards,
John
Douglas Richardson
Below is a provisional family pedigree for the baronial Cantelowe
family.
The Cantelowe family of Snitterfield, Warwickshire has not been placed
in the pedigree, nor has the Cantelowe family of Chilton Cantelo,
Somerset.
Nichole, wife of _____ Marmion and Geoffrey de Lucy, was probably a
daughter of William de Cantelowe, died 1239, or possibly William de
Cantelowe, died 1251.
This thread is crossposted as it concerns a family of historical and
genealogical note.
Comments are invited. When replying, please cite your sources and
provide weblinks if you have them.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
CANTELOWE FAMILY
1. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, d. before 1201, married _____.
2. WALTER DE CANTELOWE, living 1216, married AMICE _____.
3. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, d. 1239, married MASCELINE (or
MAZRA) DE BRACY.
4. WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, Knt., d. 1251, m. (1) c.1215/6
MILICENT DE GOURNAY; (2) after 1232 MAUD FITZ GEOFFREY, d. 1261.
5 (by1). WILLIAM DE CANTELOWE, Knt.,d. 1254, m. bef.
1241 EVE DE BREWES.
6. GEORGE DE CANTELOWE, b. 1252, d. 1273, m.
MARGARET DE LACY.
6. MILICENT DE CANTELOWE, m. (1) bef. 1254 JOHN
DE MOHAUT; (2) EUDES LA ZOUCHE, Knt., of Harringworth,
Northamptonshire.
6. JOAN DE CANTELOWE, d.c. 1271, m. HENRY DE
HASTINGS, Knt.
5 (by1). JOHN DE CANTELOWE.
5 (by1). NICHOLAS DE CANTELOWE.
5 (by1). [MASTER] THOMAS DE CANTELOWE, Archdeacon of
Stafford, Bishop of Hereford, d. 1282.
5 (by1). [MASTER] HUGH DE CANTELOWE, Archdeacon of
Gloucester, Treasurer of Salisbury, liv. 1270.
5 (by1). AGNES DE CANTELOWE, married ROBERT DE SAINT
JOHN, of Basing, Hampshire.
5 (by1). JULIANE DE CANTELOWE, married ROBERT DE
TREGOZ, of Ewyas Harold, Herefordshire.
4. [MASTER] WALTER DE CANTELOWE, Bishop of Worcester, d.
1266.
3. ROBERT DE CANTELOWE (or ROBERT BARAT), died c. 1223.
4. EUSTACE DE CANTELOWE (or EUSTACE BARET), died c.1252,
m. KATHERINE DE LISLE.
3. ROGER ORGET, liv. 1230.
3. NICHOLE DE CANTELOWE, living 1229, married _____ DE
WANNEVILLE.
3. SIBYL DE CANTELOWE, married GEOFFREY PAUNCEFOTE, liv. 1242.
3. ISABEL DE CANTELOWE (probable daughter), liv. 1245, m. (1)
STEPHEN DEVEREUX, d. 1228; (2) RALPH DE PEMBRIDGE.
4. WILLIAM DEVEREUX.
2. FULK DE CANTELOWE, Knt., of Calstone Wellington, Wiltshire, d. c.
1234.
Douglas Richardson
I can add an additional person to the Cantelowe family tree. This is
Matthew de Cantelowe, clerk, Rector of Ribston in 1231. According to
Yorkshire Arch. & Top. Jour. 8 (1884): 29, in 1239 Pope Gregory IX
granted a dispensation to “Matthew de Cantelupe, clerk of the diocese
of York, brother to the Bishop of Worcester, allowing him to hold more
benefices than one.”
This information may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=vDI4jOQFbTMC&pg=PA295
Being identified as "brother to the Bishop of Worcester," this
information allows us to place Matthew de Cantelowe as a younger son
of William de Cantelowe, died 1239, and his wife, Masceline (or Mazra)
de Bracy.
Additional records concerning Matthew de Cantelowe are published in
Yorkshire Arch. & Top. Journal, 7 (1882): 442 and 9 (1886); 77-78.
These items may be viewed at the following weblinks:
http://books.google.com/books?id=BQ6VFXY__t8C&pg=PA442
http://books.google.com/books?id=1Y-MexpI2TkC&pg=PA77
I should mention that Walter de Cantelowe, Bishop of Worcester, is
supposed to also have had a brother named Hugh de Cantelowe. The
source cited for this brother is Reg. Innocent IV no. 1694. If
someone has access to this source, I'd appreciate it if they would
post a copy of that record.
Bishop Walter de Cantelowe definitely had a nephew named [Master] Hugh
de Cantelowe, Archdeacon of Gloucester, who was a younger son of
William de Cantelowe, died 1251, and Milicent de Gournay. This Hugh
de Cantelowe died testate shortly before 6 July 1279 [see Reg. Thome
de Cantilupo Episcopi Herefordensis (Canterbury & York Soc. 1) (1906):
213].
Finally, I can add that the Hodenet family was related in some manner
to the Cantelowe family. Bishop Thomas de Cantelowe, also a son of
William and Milicent, referred to Nicholas de Hodenet as his
“kinsman” [consanguineo] in a charter dated c.1270 [see Reg. Thome de
Cantilupo Episcopi Herefordensis (Canterbury & York Soc. 1) (1906):
171; Robinson, Hist. of the Mansions & Manors of Herefordshire (1872):
37].
John Watson
Douglas,
Hugh, brother of Walter de Cantilupe, Bishop of Worcester, may be the
same person as Hugh de Cantilupe hanged for felony before 20 Jan 1227.
See Calendar of Charter Rolls, Vol. 1, p. 1
http://www.archive.org/stream/calendarcharter00stamgoog#page/n22/mode/1up/search/cant
Regards,
John
John Watson
>
> Regards,
>
> John
Sorry my mistake - this Hugh belonged to a different Cantilupe family
from Essex.
Regards,
John
Bill
Don't the Marbury sisters belong on this list?
Douglas Richardson
> Don't the Marbury sisters belong on this list?
I suggest you post their descent and see if it works.
The Marbury sisters descend from Maud de Lucy, wife of Nicholas de
Segrave, whose mother was probably Nichole, wife of ____ Marmion and
Geoffrey de Lucy. Nichole was likely a daughter or granddaughter of
William de Cantelowe, died 1239, husband of Masceline de Bracy.
AL-X-Y
Cantelupe/Cantilupe, the lawyer, died in 1258/59. In 1234 Bishop
Alexander de Stavenby/Stainsby of Lichfield & Coventry slighted him at
Westminster, according to the OND, "as following in the footsteps of
his father", who the entry tentatively suggests was Roger de
Cantilupe, hanged as a traitor in 1225. Yet I discovered that his
father was Hugh, son of William, hung in the Spring of 1225 [so the
OND was wrong]. This article, by Dr Tony Moore of Churchill College,
Cambridge, was most useful in giving details of the nature of his
crime:
http://www.frh3.org.uk/content/month/fm-04-2006.html
Hugh was arrested on suspicion of the murder of his neighbour, John de
Goldingham [they held neighbouring manors in Bulmer, Essex]. While
Hugh's son, William, implicated in the crme, fled and was outlawed. It
was an extreme end to what had started out ca 1215 as a rent
withholding by John. According to the Dunstable Annalist, Hugh was
executed after being defeated in a judicial duel [I suppose trial by
combat].
Roger is not mentioned in the matter. I have been researching his life
and career, and it was a fascinating one. It appears to have spanned
the years 1219-1259 [when he died]. The OND says he was titled
'Magister' by 1220. Which is why, in official records he is usually
referred to 'M[aster] R[oger] de Cantelup[e]'. The earliest mention
of him maybe 1219 [A History of the County of Rutland: Volume 2
(1935), pp. 41-45]. This concerns the wardship of the heir [Peter?] of
John de Freney, lord of the manor of Clipsham, Rutland.
John,I have been trying to work out how his father fits into the tree,
and, by sheer deduction, have concluded the same thing.
Regarding William de Cantilupe I, King John's steward, until I came
across this forum, had concluded [from looking at various genealogical
sites] his siblings were:
Maud [born 1151 or 1155; died 1173]. Married Henry de Longchamp I.
Fulk 'The Brown' [1161-1217/8 [dod given in OND]. A not very pleasant
man in light of the 1207 business at Christ Church Priory, Canterbury.
I think he had no issue, and his lands passed to William.
Roger [born 1163]. The Victoria County History for Gloucestershire, p
145 [Vol 6 of the VCH series] says he held 2 yardlands of the Templars
in Frampton on Severn, Gloucs. His son, Richard [ca 1230] "made an
exchange of rights" with a Richard Clifford [grandson? of Pons, the
Domesday tenant]. The paragraph also mentions another Roger, whose
widow Margery, and their son, Roger, were in Frampton late 13th Cent.
Sybilla [born 1165]. Married Geoffrey de Paunceforte.
So reading the entries in this group, I was fascinated to see how this
part of the family tree had been expanded. From what I can gather
William was born in Reading, Berks, while the other siblings I've
mentioned were born at Longueville, Jersey. Upto this point in time,
I'd thought their parents were Walter de Cantelo II[1128-82], also
born at Longueville, and Melette de Dynan. And their grandfather was
Walter de Cantelo I [born Normandy, ca 1102; poss the 'Waterus de
Cantelupo' of 1135], son of Gilbert de Cantelo [born Normandy, ca 1072
or 1074].
Regards,
Alex Lockwood [Mr]
AL-X-Y
It is likely that Roger Orget[e] is the one born in 1163 in
Longueville, Jersey. The man who wished to marry [in 1201] Helena de
Alveston, widow of Sir Hugh de Hastings of Gissing, Norfolk. The
following, from A History of the County of Huntingdon: Vol 3 [1936],
pp 139-144, pertains to Waldeshef/Belville Manor, Chesterton:-
1166: William de Chesterton held 1/4 of a fee of Nigel de Lovetot.
1200/01 Ralph de Chesterton [William's son, most likely], and Roger de
Cantilupe, were claiming the advowson: in English law the right of a
patron (avowee) to present or appoint a nominee to a vacant
ecclesiastical benefice.
c.1220: The 1/4 of a fee passed to Henry Waldeshef, who held 1/2 a fee
with Roger.
By 1242/3 Henry had died. The 1/2 fee was held by his heirs and Roger.
So unless that Roger is a son, Orgete was still alive then.
BTW, I think I have discovered what Barat/Baret and Orget[e] mean. The
Normans were very keen on nicknames, you only have to look at the
family of William the Conqueror. Both words would be Old French.
Barater [to cheat] is where we get 'barter' from [to trade, exchange,
haggle]
Orgete seems to be akin to Arguere [to assert], hence
'argue' [quarrel, wrangle dispute].
Considering the nature of the general de Ca[u]ntelo male, they appear
to have been a volatile bunch. Their brother, Fulk, I note was
instructed by King John to expel the monks of Christchurch Priory,
Canterbury in 1207, and seize the monastic revenues. Because they
supported the pope's nomination of Stephen Langton for Archbishop.
Fulk and another knight entered the priory, swords drawn, an echo of
1170. The main difference is that the knights commanded the prior and
monks to leave, or else they would burn them in their abbey.
Fortunately the clerics did depart of their own accord, and sought
refuge in France.
Maybe Fulk was called 'The Brown' because of his colouring, hair and/
or eyes. But though William II's epithet 'Rufus' was once thought to
pertain to his hair, this was actually blond. The 'red' was due to his
florrid countenance. So did Fulk have a naturally very dark
complexion?
Regards,
Alex Lockwood [Mr]