Why did gothic cathedral building stop?
Gigi
middle ages, but none of them really says why construction stopped on
them at the end of the 15th century. Can someone enlighten me please?
Thanks,
Gigi
Eric Stevens
Bearing in mind that it took a century or more to build the larger
cathedrals, I suspect that the Black Death so ravaged the population
of Europe that after the late 1300s they had neither the wealth nor
the power to commence any more such constructions. I have no evidence
to support such an argument but it seems credible at first sight.
Eric Stevens
tim.s...@uecd.co.uk
large parish churches took place. All of the 'perpendicular' style of
gothic was after the black death of 1349. This was due mostly due to
the wealth generated by the wool trade and the 'nouveau rich' merchants
taking over from the old nobility in building programmes. OK, the
cathedrals were already there but many have rebuilt naves and aisles
dating from this period.
The Gothic period reached its peak in the 1520s (completion of King's
College and Westminster Abbey Henry VII Chapel) and was replaced by
Baroque. It maybe that wars of religion slowed down ecclestiastic
building and the emphasis was more on large mansions in horizontal
rather than vertical style.
In England, I guess the reformation was the reason for building to
stop. The catholic revival in Victorian times under Pugin (I think)
ensured that most church building in the nineteenth century was again
decorated gothic.
Cheers
Tim
Gigi
in Britain is certainly logical, but what was happening on the
continent to stop construction of great churches? There was the
Reformation in Germany, but what in France, Spain, Italy, etc.?
One book I read suggested that the Albigensian experience caused the
building of the cathedrals in France. Anyone have an opinion about
that?
Gigi
tim.s...@uecd.co.uk
Most of my post was a little Anglo centric as I've visited most of the
English cathedrals and hundreds of parish churches.
My continental visits are limited to Notre Dame and Sainte-Chapelle in
Paris.
Although France, Spain and Italy didn't have a reformation, I guess
they were all affected by new ideas of the renaissance period. The
invention of printing may be one reason for new ideas to spread leading
to different ways of thinking. Perhaps people no longer believed that
building churches and cathedrals on a massive scale were the gateway to
heaven.
This probably stirs up arguments when the medieval period started and
modern times begun. Though the line is artificial, the general
timescale seems to tie in with the end of the gothic age.
Cheers
Tim
Nadine
Eric Stevens wrote:
> Bearing in mind that it took a century or more to build the larger
> cathedrals, I suspect that the Black Death so ravaged the population
> of Europe that after the late 1300s they had neither the wealth nor
> the power to commence any more such constructions. I have no evidence
> to support such an argument but it seems credible at first sight.
Sounds good enough for me.
Peter Jason
"Nadine" <nadinem...@hotmail.com> wrote
in message
news:1168463552.6...@o58g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Perhaps they too suffered from poor cathedral
attendance.
Here, the clergy are bribing the people with
cantatas, motets and oratorios to lure them
back. Even the tridentine mass of the
Council of Trent is now allowed so as to
ensnare the old and wistful!
This humble writer suggests the introduction
of bingo and poker machines, and perhaps a
bar to refresh the thirsty during tedious
homilies.
And even some buxom wenches might be rented
(if that be the term) to sit in the pews and
distract the bored with their wiles.
Also, some large flat-screen TVs could be
dotted about to display the lives of the
Saints - such as that of St Augustine before
his conversion. And that of Paul of Tarsus
during his pre-conversion phase (before he
saw the 'pretty colours' and heard the
'voices') during which he rounded up the
Christians and herded them into the
colosseum!
Martyrs in the making! How inspiring!
Any well-run cathedral might have a
'night-club' Saturday night, which would
guarantee bodies on the ground for the
subsequent service next morning!
Uwe Müller
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:ru46q21s5vh6mr7da...@4ax.com...
I'd rather say that cathedral building was enabled by
a) having to have, and being able to pass on for the time of building, the
technical skills,
b) having a community wanting to use such a building
c) having a community able to pay for and organise the building
d) having enough people that like the style of building
e) having religious services conducted in a manner that needed and used a
cathedral (processions)
Christian liturgy changed (over here) from romanesque to gothic styled
buildings. The older churches were strictly bi-partite, the laymens area was
separated from the altar room for the priests and other religious staff,
admission was from the south and/or north.
Than gothic styled churches with a portal in the west took over, with most
churches being rebuild, some only got a portal fitted in the west, and only
a few remained without a west portal. Especially those in rich towns were
used to display the wealth of a whole community, who had only a few other
ways to display.
Some people argue that reading became more important at that time, the
audience parcipitation parts, so more and bigger windows would have been
needed. It was the end of the romanesque church, as the new doors and
windows would be build in the gothic style. For the art historian the
refurnished building would appear to be a genuine gothic construction,
indicating a wave of gothic building when many might very likely have been
no more than redecorations. Archaeological research has shown again and
again how many phases of building, rebuilding, redcoration etc. happened
before the ideal image of the gothic cathedral from the 15 th c. was
completed. Little research has been done on churches in general.
In Germany the 15th c. saw the rise in laymen religious groups, parallel to
the establishment of strong regional political forces and a strong decrease
in vertical movement on the scial ladder. Those groups would split up the
community of the parish into different factions, building side altars,
chapells etc, venerating different saints.
They had no use for large new buildings, and woud not have been able to pay
for them anyhow, while loyalty and funding for the parish community as a
whole was waning. Power was more and more concentrated in the hands of a few
families, mostly nobility and/or traders, churches would be build according
to their tastes and only where they lived. Than came the little ice age and
the 30 years war, and after that barock churches and absolutism. The social
structure, that had provided the background to the use of cathedrals, had
changed. New building technics, changes in liturgy, drastic changes in the
political and economic background were expressed in a different
architecture.
The Dom at Cologne, a famous gothic church, had been begun by the
arch-bishop, who at that time lived and ruled in Cologne. It was planned as
the highest and best and most glorious church building, representing of
course the power of the Archbishop.
When the town succesfully won its freedom from the archbishop, expelling him
from town, the building site was stopped at once, it stood unfinished for
centuries. It was as such a proclamation of the towns independence.
After the Napoleonic wars the Rhineland, including Cologne, was seized by
Prussia. The Dom was completed at once, as a sign of the power of the
Prussian king. For good measure he added a new railway station just across
the churchyard, connected by a road and railway bridge to the other side of
the Rhine (which is still the 'bad' side), the first new bridge for
centuries.
In short, cathedrals were usefull in a certain technical, political,
economical and social setting. When this changed, cathedrals simply became
obsolete (but remember the neo-gothic style in the 19th c).
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Michael Kuettner
"Nadine" <nadinem...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1168463552.6...@o58g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
St. Peter in Rome, the Salzburger Dom (cathedral) and so on and so forth.
That no more _Gothic_ cathedrals were built had to do with a change in
building styles.
Cathedrals were still built, but fewer.
Why ? Because only rich bishoprics could afford one and most of those
had already built one / had one under construction.
>
> Sounds good enough for me.
>
Not really. See above.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Peter Alaca
> "Eric Stevens" schrieb
Here you will find information about the development
of the Dutch medieval churches in Elst (on top of two
Gallo-Roman temples) and Brunssum.
http://www.esnips.com/web/Dutch-churches
(sci.archaeology added)
--
p.a.
Gigi
many parish churches beginning in the early 16th century, rather than
in more enormous cathedrals? That certainly makes sense, when one
considers the vast number of village and neighborhood churches to be
found everywhere in Europe today -- churches that often date from that
period. It is logical, too, to guess that the local rich man would get
much more of an ego boost from building a beautiful church near his
home where his family would be christened, wed and buried, and for
which his peasants would revere him.
When this idea is combined with the fact that most large European
cities already had at least begun (and often completed) their grand
cathedrals, it seems like a very good explanation.
Gigi
prd
by "Peter Alaca" <p.a...@purple.invalid> . . . :
Watered down gothic style churches were still being
built in the U.S. until the 1950's. The reason gothic
church building stopped in the U.S. at least in my
experience in San Antonio, is that they required european
stone masons that command increasingly higher wages.
In 1980 we had an ornate facade on a C. 1920 building
that needed to be repaired, we could not find a single
qualified mason in San Antonio, and we were given
referals to a mason in Italy, finally we found a group
of men in Mexico that were trained in the art and they
were hired and brought to the U.S. and believe it or
not payed about 25$ per hour to do the work, provided room
board and food, and a ride back to Mexico when the work
was done.
This may be a somewhat unique experience in the South
because San Antonio has alot of cement stone facade
building, the SWB building has a gothic facade on the front
ot it as well as many buildings within a certain period.
It is almost impossible to demolish these old buildings
according to the historical code so you have to go out
and find people who know the stones, the craft, and
are willing to travel, pay 'em lots of dollars.
I would say the cost of construction per/area was higher
for gothic style buildings and when newer and more modern
construction techiques (such as reinforced concreted and girder
construction) come along these massive structures were abandoned.
Nobody wants to do this type of work anymore, anyway.
Uwe Müller
"prd" <X_he...@address.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:dROph.374558$Fi1.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Brandenburg, the region I live in, has somewhat more than 1000 mostly
medieval churches, add castles and manors.
>
> I would say the cost of construction per/area was higher
> for gothic style buildings and when newer and more modern
> construction techiques (such as reinforced concreted and girder
> construction) come along these massive structures were abandoned.
> Nobody wants to do this type of work anymore, anyway.
Over here there are plenty of people able and willing to do the work. And
over here they did not simply stop after the gothic period to wait for
reinforced concrete to come along.
But that would be another story.
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Peter Alaca
You are talking about Neo-Gothic.
Many churches (and secular buidlings) overhere were
built, rebuilt or restyled in that style during the late 19th
early 20th c. Often the result was awful.
Luckily many are demolished or restored in the original
style since.
--
p.a.
prd
I don't know if there is a single classic gothic cathedral
with period construction in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_National_Cathedral
Shows a mixture of gothic styles but just to show how bad things
are here:
"
Washington National Cathedral was completed on 29 September 1990 after
almost a century of planning and 83 years in construction. Its final design
shows a mix of influences from the various Gothic architectural styles of
the Middle Ages, identifiable in its pointed arches, flying buttresses,
ceiling vaulting, stained-glass windows, carved decorations in stone, and
by its three similar towers, two on the west front and one surmounting the
crossing.
"
And while technically gothic its considered gothic revival since it
does not represent a particular style from a particular region.
There are smaller churches with more ornate gothic style not nearly as
majestic, that were built in the 19th and 20th century. Almost
all of these conform to the gothic revival style that appears
in England in the 18th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_revival_architecture
> Many churches (and secular buidlings) overhere were
> built, rebuilt or restyled in that style during the late 19th
> early 20th c. Often the result was awful.
> Luckily many are demolished or restored in the original
> style since.
We have a "few" of those.
BTW, most of the buildings I have seen and worked on would not even qualify
as Neo-gothic, more or less these are regional construction with gothic
facade.
prd
<uwemu...@go4more.de> . . . :
In the year 1311 work was finished on the Lincoln Cathedral,
a cathedral in the Early English gothic style of architecture
and somewhere about that time is surpassed the giza pyramids
as the tallest manmade struncture in the world. The characteristics
of this structure epitomized gothic archetecture, while not
near as massive as the giza pyramids, weight efficiency was
not a hall mark of gothic buildings.
http://www.lincolncathedral.com/
"
After more damage caused by the earthquake of 1185, a major reconstruction
of the cathedral began. Rebuilding started at the east end with an apse
and five radiating chapels. The nave was built during the first half of
the 13th century in the Early English Gothic style. Technological advances
in architecture at this time made the most of pointed arches, flying
buttresses and ribbed vaulting to allow larger windows. The double
arcading (syncopated arcading) along the outer walls of the choir aisles is
an unusual example of the Early English style. Against the wall are arches
in relief with a second layer in front giving the illusion of a passageway
along the wall. The remains of the Norman west end were incorporated into
the Gothic west front we see today.
The collapse of the central tower in the 1230s prompted another rebuilding
of the east end. A suitable shrine was needed for St. Hugh Bishop of
Lincoln and so the Angel Choir was built. This used high arches, fine,
detailed carvings and huge expanses of stained glass to give an impression
of light and richness. The European-style apse was extended into a Celtic-
influenced square ended chancel.
In the 14th century the central tower was raised and topped with a lead-
covered spire, making it the tallest building in Europe. The Choir Screen
was also added at this time. Used then as a pulpit, it is in the Decorated
style of dense, intricate carvings which would have been brightly painted.
"
There were several principle reasons for the gothic
scope, namely elevated and wide windows and a tendancy for
elevated central rooms with fairly wide spans. Often the spans
were at the mercy of timbers in the surrounding regions that
were long enough and strong enough to support the weight, over
time these beams warped and pushed the load bearing outer walls
outward. Later wood was replaced by stone as many vaults
on early churches caught on fire, and the stone added more weight
to the load bearing outer columns. The addition of the stone or
brick vaults led for the need for improved craftsmen and techniques
to prevent collapse. The new stone braces roof covered vaults were
essentially an evolution of the barrel vault
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_%28architecture%29#Barrel_vault
Much improvements
were made to enhance the stability of these elevated roofs
covering the cathedrals but the more they were elevated the more
the roofs tended to pry the wall apart, by placing elevated
windows the weight was spread to columns futher straining
these structures. To compensate for this semi-arches known
as flying buttresses were added to brace these pillars, and the
pillars themselves were made more massive.
The columns themselves were carved in pieces and assembled
into position a monumental task in itself, the gothic style evolved
into arched colums in which the roof ribs were fed from column
clusters replacing massive columns, somewhat more weight efficient
but no-where near modern construction.
The key to gothic cathedrals lies in the transition from the columns
(or clusters thereof) to the ribbing that forms the ceiling, while these
look continuous to us they are made of many sections, and the movement of
a few cms of any of the supporting arches could be catastropic.
The column clusters themselves are often part of the bracing, with a stair
step of arches leading to the central arch or cloisters built under
the flying butresses, converted structure neccesities into part of the
function and artistry of the building.
To add to the weight issues false vaults or layered vaults were added
on top the stonemasonry to protect it from the elements, these were
generally light weight.
How does one contrast these structures with modern structures.
One common element for modern structure is the idea of the shell, the
exterior of the building minus its vaneer = structure. No better
example of this comes to mind is the world trade center buildings
with a massive number of exterior columns to lower weight integrated
to a matrix of spaning beams and central supports. Typically however
there is a vertically array of evenly spaced beams that are braced
at each floor. The interior walls are built to abutt or inside the
exterior columns and the veneer is generally exterior of the columns.
On each floor the plumbing is hung in the plenum spaces and the
space is defined by ceiling hung from the above floor or roof.
In general the exterior roof of a house is not supported by the
ceiling joists, which independeny support the ceiling veneer and
the attic deck, the roof is supported by bracing to interior walls.
Occasionally a roof is braced from an additional cross joints
that run across the ceiling joists and roof joists to spread
the weight of the braces, and to strengthen the ceiling joists.
The basic assumption for modern homes is a controlled sag in which
the roof settles, expands, contracts on bracing beams the connect
to the walls. This style of architect can allow for some fairly
large spaces with fairly light weight, the biggest in the new home
construction are composite concatamerizations of wood and glue
to provide fairly massive cross beams which can support a large
percentage of the weight in a single house.
The decreased weight of construction decrease the strain on the
foundations and make building in some areas possible. Expanding
on this type of construction is the metal frame building in which
many modern cathedrals are made of. Vaulted strunctures built on
walls 6 inches in core thickness can span regions 2 or three times
that of europes greatest cathedrals. The key to these structures
is the metal lattice the forms the ceiling or roof structure, while
highly functional, these lattices are generally unsightly and covered
up with a veneer such as stucco or ceiling tiles. The disadvantage of
these lattices is similar to wood, while worthy when cool and dry,
elevated temperatures particularly during fires can cause the lattices
to warp and cave in. Flat roofs are particularly prone to leaking
and leaking on metal causes rust, and this shortens the life of these
spans. Many of the building codes are changing, in
the past they allowed 4" colums, basically a pin', to brace
the beams, and the beams basically warp off the columns and cave
in during fires. Now bigger beams are require with better attachements
at the top end of the column. History repeats itself.
The major difference between a modern building and gothic archetecture
is this, the time to found and frame building is relatively fast, days
to weeks, and the detail construction is large astructural in nature,
everything you see is a facade in mose modern building, typically you
never see the core structure. In gothic architecture the majority
of work and time went into building the structure, which required both
structural performance and ascetics to be combined, and it is no
faulting the artisans because the painting and windows and various
aspects of decorating a church were time consuming, often 100s of years,
the framing of the building itself was a protracted undertaking.
Many buildings want the gothic look but not the gothic architecture,
these buildings were built in many styles, in San Antonio there a buildings
with spanish colonial structures (limestone blocks and buttresses) various
types of veneers, centerblocks on concrete beams with metal lattice roofs
or in the old days treated pine roofs also with a variety of veneers. In
the 60s it progressed to prefabricated concrete buildings that could be
slapped up literally in hours from a truck and a crane, again, choose a
veneer. You wanna get that gothic look fake windows, fake buttress, and
a nice facade hiding a flat roof with tar and pebble on it. The key to
this is the 1920s is to find a finish stone mason to build the facade,
a completely different kind of mason than those that built gothic
cathedrals, but none this less possessing a skill often lacking.
erilar
<bAVph.376770$Fi1.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
prd <X_he...@address.net> wrote:
> I don't know if there is a single classic gothic cathedral
> with period construction in the US.
Oh, really! The US isn't OLD enough to have a "period" gothic
cathedral. NEOgothic, perhaps.
There is an occasional neoromanesque church, too, even here in the
Midwest. I've visited one that even looks pretty convincingly German
Romanesque INside, and I've seen another that looks rather convincing
from the outside, but haven't seen its interior.
--
Mary Loomer (aka Erilar)
----------------------------------------
Es ist nichts schrecklicher als eine tätige Unwissenheit.
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
(There's nothing worse than ignorance in action.)
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
prd
@news.airstreamcomm.net by erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> . . . :
> In article
> <bAVph.376770$Fi1.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> prd <X_he...@address.net> wrote:
>
>> I don't know if there is a single classic gothic cathedral
>> with period construction in the US.
>
> Oh, really! The US isn't OLD enough to have a "period" gothic
> cathedral. NEOgothic, perhaps.
I said period construction not period gothic. It is possible to copy
a construction style, it just hasn't been done.
> There is an occasional neoromanesque church, too, even here in the
> Midwest. I've visited one that even looks pretty convincingly German
> Romanesque INside, and I've seen another that looks rather convincing
> from the outside, but haven't seen its interior.
If you want to see churches made from the 'massive' old craft go
to the Southwest and Mexico, but they are not Romanesque.
The Epitome of romanesque is the Lisbon Cathedral from 1147. The period
is intermediate between Roman and later architecture.
chazwin
before the Refomation had to stop.
The emergence of a new awareness in technology and science and the
emergence of the more simple Protestant attitude towards religion made
the opulent excesses of the Roman church untenable.
We should reflect upon the wider activities of the time: printing,
enlightenment, heliocentricity, science, biblical translations, growth
of science. There was a change of enormous proportions in the way man
saw himself and his place in the universe.
charlie...@googlemail.com
Hope this helps!