Welsh elm bow
son_of_sch...@my-deja.com
I am trying to find out opinions on whether the form of the elm bow used
by the Welsh, as described by Giraldus Cambrensis "Yet the bows used by
these people (the Venta) are not made of horn, ivory, or yew, but of
wild elm; unpolished, rude and uncouth, but stout..." was a flat bow, or
a d-section bow. Robert E. Kaiser, in "The Medieval English Longbow"
states that this bow could not have been shaped like the typical longbow
as used in the 100-years war. The traditional archery bowyer Paul
Comstock has written that in his opinion, based on making reproductions,
that it was most likely a flat baw. Hardy, though, in "Longbow" is of
the opinion that this was the d-section longbow, but made of elm.
Have there been any recent finds that could shed light on this? Any
other opinions?
Thanks, Dan Slone.
real email: dsloneAT-SYMBOLgnv.ifas.ufl.edu
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Before you buy.
Patrick Zoch
<son_of_sch...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8a1g6k$ii3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Dan,
I took a look in "The Medieval Archer" by Jim Bradbury (published in 1985)
to see what he may have said on the welsh bow. He does not state plainly
that the welsh bow is a d-shape, but let me share with you what he does say.
His book would imply that the welsh bow was d-shape.
He states "There is no fundamental difference between the Nydam bows from
the Roman period, the Norman bows on the Bayeux Tapestry, and the longbows
of the Hundred Years' War. The bow portrayed on the Tapestry seem to match
up exactly with the description of Welsh bows given by Gerald of Wales in
the late twelfth century."
Bradbury's Gerald and your Giraldus may be the same.
Gerald describes the welsh bow "The Welsh carve their bows out of the dwarf
elm trees in the forest. they are nothing much to look at, not even rubbed
smooth, nut left in a rough and unpolished state."
Bradbury provides his qualification of a long bow. In his book, he contends
that the longbow was not a new invention of the period and the term
"longbow" is a modern definition. He states : " So far we have ducked the
question of what is the real difference between the longbow, and what we
have continued to call the ' ordinary wooden bow.' A good deal of
confusion has come from the failure to recognise that in all fundamentals
the longbow is the same thing as the ordinary wooden bow. It is made from a
single wooden stave, often though not always made of yew. the stave is
rounded rather than flat, with the central part shaped in a 'D' section,
tapering towards the extremities."
He continues to discuss the similarities and differences, of which he
concludes that the only major difference is the length, which was relative:
"One man's longbow was another man's shortbow." Those which he refers to as
longbows were generally 5 feet long in the eleventh century and grew to 6
feet by the fifteenth century. The bows he cites are the Nydam bows from
the late Roman period, the Lupfen bows of the eight century, the Irish bows
of the tenth century, as well as the Viking bows in comparison to the
English bow of the Hundred Years' War fame.
Bradbury provides an illustration and cross-section of the Nydam bows. The
bows in the illustration were of the "D" type. If Bradbury's connection
between Gerald of Wales and the three major period bows is valid, then the
three periodic bows shape being a "D" shaft at the center would imply that
the Welsh bow is also "D" type.
I hope that the Bradbury piece is of some help.
My personal answer to you question about the Welsh bow being "D" shaped or
flat would to state that the Welsh bow was a "D" shape. Although Bradbury
alludes to it, there are other writers (mostly the historians of the Hundred
Years' War) who cite the similarities between the two bows, and often
attribute the Longbow's heritage to the Welsh. The proximity of the cultures
on the English Islands and the similarities of their bows in later periods
would also lend me to believe that the Welsh bow conformed to the later
popular "D" style known in the English Longbow. Also, the performance cited
by contemporaries, especially Gerald, of the Welsh bow is the same
performance of other "D" style bows - English, Irish, and Late Turkish short
bow (despite the excessive curve in the unstrung bow). The advent of an
English "D" style longbow while the Welsh used an inferior flat style bow
would also have been mentioned somewhere in the records of history, yet the
Welsh bowmen were highly respected and often hired by the English. Soldiers
provided their own equipment, including bows, so I think that the Welsh
style was the "D" type.
However, since I was not there at the time, nor do I hold a period Welsh bow
in my hand, my statements are purely deductive and subject to the validity
of the sources I used.
Has any of the authors whose books you cite attempted to recreate a Welsh
elm bow in either style and checked its performance against recorded
historical effects? That seems to be the most scientific way of settling
the matter.
Pat
son_of_sch...@my-deja.com
"Patrick Zoch" <pdz...@ufl.edu> wrote:
>
> <son_of_sch...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8a1g6k$ii3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am trying to find out opinions on whether the form of the elm bow
used
>
> Dan,
>
> I took a look in "The Medieval Archer" by Jim Bradbury (published in
1985)
> to see what he may have said on the welsh bow.
This is one book that I definiteluy need to take a look at
He does not state
plainly
> that the welsh bow is a d-shape, but let me share with you what he
does say.
> His book would imply that the welsh bow was d-shape.
>
> He states "There is no fundamental difference between the Nydam bows
from
> the Roman period, the Norman bows on the Bayeux Tapestry, and the
longbows
> of the Hundred Years' War. The bow portrayed on the Tapestry seem to
match
> up exactly with the description of Welsh bows given by Gerald of Wales
in
> the late twelfth century."
>
> Bradbury's Gerald and your Giraldus may be the same.
Yes, they are.
>
> Gerald describes the welsh bow "The Welsh carve their bows out of the
dwarf
> elm trees in the forest. they are nothing much to look at, not even
rubbed
> smooth, nut left in a rough and unpolished state."
This is one thing that makes me believe that the bows were flat. Gerald
was an archer himself, and understood the makings of bows. To describe
the wood as rude, or rough and unpolished is a significant departure
from yew d-section bows, which were perhaps wavy, but smooth. Any
roughness in the back of a d-section bow will cause it to break. I have
not experienced it, but have read it from bowmakers on several
occasions. Flat bows (especially neolithic "backward" style bows) are
not so demanding.
This is compelling. I have read accounts that the d-section bow arrived
with the Normans, being probably a Scandinavian invention, though this
is also with its controversy. Flatbows had been around Europe for at
least 7,000 years before the Normans got to the islands, and these were
as tall as the men that used them. I was thinking that perhaps the
Welsh used this design, and were later influenced by the d-section bows
that came from England.
>
> My personal answer to you question about the Welsh bow being "D"
shaped or
> flat would to state that the Welsh bow was a "D" shape. Although
Bradbury
> alludes to it, there are other writers (mostly the historians of the
Hundred
> Years' War) who cite the similarities between the two bows, and often
> attribute the Longbow's heritage to the Welsh. The proximity of the
cultures
I'm sure the Welsh were using d-section bows in the 100-years war.
Yes, unfortunately there are no existing Welsh bows from the period. It
was the performance issue that first ot me thinking about this. Paul
Comstock has said that an elm flatbow will be superior to an elm
d-section bow, if both are constructed well. Given the reputation of
the Welsh archers and their bows, I think that they had a good design.
I was recently told that the elm that grows in wales is vary different
thatn the elm that (used to) grow in the US. Mr. Comstock is from the
US, and may have been basing his opinion of US elm. I'll have to follow
up on that. I wrote an email to an english bowyer that makes d-section
elm bows. We'll see what he has to say on the matter.
Thanks for the information.
Cheers, Dan