Magnetic Compass
David Starr
they can no longer profit by the light or when the world is wrapped in
the darkness of the shades of night and they are ignorant to what part
of the horizon the prow is directed, place the needle over the magnet
which is whirled round in a circle, until when the motion ceases; the
point of it [the needle] looks to the north."
Alexander Neckham 1187.
" Alexander Neckham, an English scholar monk was the first to record a
metal needle being magnetized by a lodestone and then used as a marine
compass. Alexander was born in 1157 on the same day as the future King
Richard I of England, Richard the Lion Heart. Alexander's mother suckled
both infants, Richard at her right breast and Alexander at the left.
Twenty three years later, Neckham was teaching at the University of
Paris while his foster brother was refining the finer points of medieval
warfare and mayhem in Aquitaine.
Neckham the scholar wrote two treatises typical of the time. De
Naturis Rerum was a treasure chest of legends and folk tales: the Man in
the Moon; the last song of the dying swan, the development of the goose
from a barnacle; the sharp eyed lynx what can see through nine walls;
the squirrel who crosses a river on a plank of wood holding up his tail
as a sail. De Utensilibus dealt with articles of everyday use.
In De Naturis Rerum he described how "the sailors, moreover, as they
sail over the sea, when in cloudy weather the can no longer profit by
the light of the sun, or when the world is wrapped in the darkness of
night, and they are ignorant to what part of the horizon the prow is
directed, place the needle over the magnet which is whirled round in a
circle, until, when the motion ceases , the point of it [the needle]
looks to the north."
In De Utensilibus the compass needle is described as mounted on a
dart, "thus making known to the sailors the route which they should hold
while the Little Bear is concealed from them by the vicissitudes of the
atmosphere."
Neckham's dart has caused much head-scratching among academics: Was
the dart a vertical dart meaning a pivoted compass needle? Or did he
mean the needle was stuck through a dart or straw, thus making the
needle float in a bowl of water?
David Starr
From "Compass" by Alan Gurney. C 2004 ISBN 0-303-05073-4
celia
Thank you, that was most interesting.
Alexander Neckham was Abbot of Cirencester at
a time when it owned land to either side of the
gold and embroidery workshops that were situated
in my village. They were a centre for the arts and there
is a possibility that the connection with Cirencester goes
back to before the post Regenbald building work as it was
said that Cirencester Abbey was founded by the brother
of Aelfsige the royal goldsmith.
This was towards the end of the goldsmiths' influence
on technology.
Celia
Paul J Gans
> Celia
It's a bit more complex than this, and the problems of
the history of technology are well exemplified by it.
First check:
http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/compass.html
for a brief review of what is known about the compass.
Then check:
http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/magnets.html
and see that magnets were recorded in Europe *prior*
to their use as compass needles.
Note that magnets were infrequently written about. With
this in mind it is quite possible that the compass was known
far earlier in Europe than its first mention might indicate.
So the dates we assign to the "first mention" are in
fact last possible dates for the invention itself.
Surely by the time Neckham, a scholar and a religious,
heard about the compass, it had been around for a while.
Also check on the Roman d'Enéa
http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/texts/eneas.html
The recognition of this text as containing an interest mention
of magnets belongs to Prof. Kathryn Talarico, one-time poster
her. The recognition that this might be the earliest mention
of magnets in western Europe was mine.
Of course it is quite possible that earlier mentions in the
western European literature exist. If anyone knows of any
I'd be grateful for the information.
---- Paul J. Gans
jackli...@earthlink.net
Do you exclude Thales from "the first discussion of magnetism or
magnets"? or the Olmecs?
Knowledge of Magnetism in Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica.
That the pre-Columbian peoples of Mesoamerica were familiar with the
property
of magnetism has been suggested by several researchers, among them the
geographer
Robert Fuson and the anthropologist Michael Coe. Indeed, a flattened
oblong piece of
hematite discovered during Coe's excavation of the Olmec site of San
Lorenzo in
southern Veracruz state in 1966 has been thoroughly examined by John
Carlson, who
suggests that it probably was fashioned for use as a compass. In 1975,
a basaltic
sculpture at the site of Izapa, on the Pacific coastal plain of Mexico
near the Guatemalan
border, was found to possess a strong magnetic field. Variously
described as being the
representation of either a frog (Norman, 1976) or a turtle's head
(Malmström, 1976), it
has a north-seeking pole in its snout and a south-seeking pole at the
back of its head. The
discovery led the latter researcher to speculate that the stone's
carver may have associated
the property of magnetism with the homing instinct of the turtle.
Because it was the only
magnetic object found at the site, critics of the notion that it was a
human artifact argued
that it may have been struck by lightning and that its magnetic field
had induced in that
manner.
However, in 1979, several additional magnetic sculptures were
discovered in the
Pacific coastal plain of Guatemala, including seven which now repose in
the central plaza
of the town of La Democracia, and two more which were identified at the
nearby sugar
plantation of El Baúl. Those at La Democracia are extremely crude
depictions of human
beings, and, because of their rotundity, have been termed the "Fat
Boys" by
archaeologists. When an entire body is depicted, the two magnetic poles
are usually
found on either side of the navel; when only a head is portrayed, the
two magnetic poles
are almost invariably centered on the right temple. The sculptures at
El Baúl include a
rampant jaguar, with magnetic poles in each upraised paw, and a tablet
showing two men
seated on a bench with their arms folded over their chests. This single
block of stone has
four magnetic poles, one north-seeking pole between each of the men's
folded arms and
one south-seeking pole below each man in the space beneath the bench.
In 1983 a small
humanoid sculpture in the plaza of Tuxtla Chica, Mexico, just back of
Izapa, was found
to be magnetic in the right side of its head. Clearly, the patterns of
polarity discerned
suggest a conscious intent on the part of the sculptors to fashion
their carvings around a
known center of magnetic attraction, for in none of the stones has any
inset of foreign
material been made. That such recurring patterns could have been the
result of random
lightning strikes must also be ruled out. Because the "Fat Boys" are
considered to date
from 1500-2000 B.C., it is possible that these sculptures represent the
oldest known
magnetic artifacts in the world. But to what use, other than art and
magic, this
knowledge was put, we have no answer as yet.
Bibliography:
Carlson, John B. "Lodestone Compass: Chinese or Olmec Primacy?",
SCIENCE,
Vol. 189 (1975), 753-760.
Fuson, Robert H. "The Orientation of Mayan Ceremonial Centers", ANNALS,
Association of American Geographers, Vol. 59 (1969), 508-510.
Norman, Garth. Izapa Sculpture, Part 2: Text. Papers of the New World
Archaeological Foundation, No. 30, Provo, Utah, (1976).
Malmström, V.H. "Knowledge of Magnetism in Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica",
NATURE, 259, (5542), 390-391, (1976).
Malmström, V.H. and Paul E. Dunn. "Pre-Columbian Magnetic
Sculptures in Western Guatemala", 1979. (Summarized on Science page
of TIME
magazine dated September 3, 1979, under title "The Fat Boys".)
and
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~izapa/CS-MM-Chap.%203.htm
Carlson's article, you need access to get the PDF copy
Lodestone Compass: Chinese or Olmec Primacy?: Multidisciplinary
analysis of an Olmec hematite artifact from San Lorenzo, Veracruz,
Mexico
John B. Carlson
Science 5 September 1975 189: 753-760 [DOI:
10.1126/science.189.4205.753] (in Articles)
......ARTICLES Lodestone Compass: Chinese or Olmec Primacy?
Multidisciplinary...analysis of an Olmec hematite...Mexico John B.
Carlson Department...that the Olmec were a sophisticated...zeroth-order
compass, if not a...compass) or to geomagnetic...millennium Chinese,
who used the lodestone compass for......
Very health abstract
Science 5 September 1975:
Vol. 189. no. 4205, pp. 753 - 760
DOI: 10.1126/science.189.4205.753
Prev | Table of Contents | Next
Articles
Lodestone Compass: Chinese or Olmec Primacy?
Multidisciplinary analysis of an Olmec hematite artifact from San
Lorenzo, Veracruz, Mexico
John B. Carlson 1
1 Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of Maryland, College
Park 20742
Considering the unique morphology (purposefully shaped polished bar
with a groove) and composition (magnetic mineral with magnetic moment
vector in the floating plane) of M-160, and acknowledging that the
Olmec were a sophisticated people who possessed advanced knowledge and
skill in working iron ore minerals, I would suggest for consideration
that the Early Formative artifact M-160 was probably manufactured and
used as what I have called a zeroth-order compass, if not a first-order
compass. The data I have presented in this article support this
hypothesis, although they are not sufficient to prove it. That M-160
could be used today as a geomagnetically directed pointer is
undeniable. The original whole bar may indeed have pointed close to
magnetic north-south. The groove functions well as a sighting mark, and
the slight angle it makes with the axis of the bar appears to be the
result of calibration rather than accident. A negative supporting
argument is that M-160 looks utilitarian rather than decorative, and no
function for the object other than that of a compass pointer has been
suggested by anyone who has examined it critically. Whether such a
pointer would have been used to point to something astronomical
(zeroth-order compass) or to geomagnetic north-south (first-order
compass) is entirely open to speculation.
The observation of the family of Olmec site alignments 8° west of
north is a curiosity in its own right, and the possibility that these
alignments have an astronomical or geomagnetic origin should be
explored.
I also believe that it is constructive to compare the first millennium
Chinese, who used the lodestone compass for geomancy, with the Gulf
Coast Olmec since both were agrarian-terrestrial societies. The Olmec's
apparent concern with orientation and skillful use of magnetic minerals
also stimulates one to draw cross-cultural parallels.
The evidence and analysis offered in this article provide a basis for
hypotheses of parallel cultural developments in China and the Olmec New
World. If the Olmec did discover the geomagnetic orienting properties
of lodestone, as did the Han Chinese, it is most reasonable to
speculate that they would have used their compass for comparable
geomantic purposes. It should, however, be recognized that the Olmec
claim, if documented, predates the Chinese discovery of the geomagnetic
lodestone compass by more than a millennium.
At present, M-160 is a unique artifact and San Lorenzo a unique site:
"The first civilized center of Mesoamerica and probably of the New
World" (19, p. 89). Further documentation of the Olmec claim must await
the discovery of similar artifacts in museums, private collections, or
as yet undiscovered Olmec sites.
I would welcome communications from anyone possessing information
relating to such artifacts. Regardless of shape, purposefully grooved
and highly polished specimens of magnetic minerals are of particular
interest. It would also be useful for the archeologist excavating Olmec
burials and offerings to carefully note their alignments and consider
them in a geomantic context.
In addition to the discovery of supporting artifacts, establishment of
Olmec primacy of the lodestone compass depends on the acquisition of
the archeomagnetic data for the Early Formative period. I appeal to
archeologists who find good archeomagnetic samples (burned hearths and
post-holes) from the Formative periods to convey this information to R.
DuBois of the University of Oklahoma. In a few years, the
archeomagnetic data should be available for the last three millennia
and the possibilities are very exciting.
Curt Emanuel
"David Starr" <dstarr...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:eMOdnTjrAcKmc1LZ...@adelphia.com...
Interesting. I have Urban Tigner Holmes Jr's, _Daily Living in the Twelfth
Century: Based on the Observations of Alexander Neckham in London and Paris_
ISBN: 0-299-00854-1 He quotes _De nominibus utensilium_ as saying; "He
should have a needle placed on a pivot; the needle will rotate and revolve
until the point looks toward the east, and thus sailors understand where
they should steer when the Little Bear constellation is hidden in the storm,
although this constellation never sets because of the brevity of its
circle." p49
Some obvious differences in translation (not to mention the title of
Neckham's work). However Holmes appears certain that in this case the
compass points East and discusses why in some detail on page 50. In his
introduction Holmes states of this work, "which we translate." p16 In any
case, this description of a compass appears clearer. This was first
published in 1952.
What translation did Gurney use?
Curt Emanuel
David Starr
>>
>
> Interesting. I have Urban Tigner Holmes Jr's, _Daily Living in the Twelfth
> Century: Based on the Observations of Alexander Neckham in London and Paris_
> ISBN: 0-299-00854-1 He quotes _De nominibus utensilium_ as saying; "He
> should have a needle placed on a pivot; the needle will rotate and revolve
> until the point looks toward the east, and thus sailors understand where
> they should steer when the Little Bear constellation is hidden in the storm,
> although this constellation never sets because of the brevity of its
> circle." p49
>
> Some obvious differences in translation (not to mention the title of
> Neckham's work). However Holmes appears certain that in this case the
> compass points East and discusses why in some detail on page 50. In his
> introduction Holmes states of this work, "which we translate." p16 In any
> case, this description of a compass appears clearer. This was first
> published in 1952.
>
> What translation did Gurney use?
>
> Curt Emanuel
>
>
Gurney doesn't say. He has a bibliography, but De Rerum and De
Utensilibus do not appear therein. On the other hand I would have some
questions about a translation that turns magnetic north into magnetic
east. The "a needle placed upon a pivot" describes an instrument
somewhat in advance of a plain needle floating in a bowl of water.
David Starr
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>> It's a bit more complex than this, and the problems of
>> the history of technology are well exemplified by it.
>>
>> First check:
>>
>> http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/compass.html
>>
>> for a brief review of what is known about the compass.
>>
>> Then check:
>>
>> http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/magnets.html
>>
>> and see that magnets were recorded in Europe *prior*
>> to their use as compass needles.
>>
>> Note that magnets were infrequently written about. With
>> this in mind it is quite possible that the compass was known
>> far earlier in Europe than its first mention might indicate.
>>
>> So the dates we assign to the "first mention" are in
>> fact last possible dates for the invention itself.
>> Surely by the time Neckham, a scholar and a religious,
>> heard about the compass, it had been around for a while.
>>
>> Also check on the Roman d'En?a
>>
>> http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/texts/eneas.html
>>
>> The recognition of this text as containing an interest mention
>> of magnets belongs to Prof. Kathryn Talarico, one-time poster
>> her. The recognition that this might be the earliest mention
>> of magnets in western Europe was mine.
>>
>> Of course it is quite possible that earlier mentions in the
>> western European literature exist. If anyone knows of any
>> I'd be grateful for the information.
>>
>> ---- Paul J. Gans
>Do you exclude Thales from "the first discussion of magnetism or
>magnets"? or the Olmecs?
Sadly yes. Neither were medieval and the Olmecs had no
influence on European medieval technology.
The influence of Thales on the medievals can also be
doubted, but the fact is that we just don't know. Clearly
magnetic rocks were known, the romance of Eneas is a clear
example. The author writes of them as if they were well-known.
So that even if that is the first mention in surviving medieval
literature, clearly it does not announce the discovery of
such things.
A side issue: For me in the history of technology, it is
not enough to note that an idea occured at a certain point
in time. It has to have had consequences that pass into
general knowlege. Thus the Olmecs, sadly, had no influence
on western knowlege of magnetism. Thus from the western
point of view, it was a dead end. Not there fault, but
there it is.
--- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
What you have there (I've used it as a text) isn't really a
translation. It is Holmes crafting a story into which a
large amount of Neckham's work is included.
My personal impression is that, as in a number of other
things unfamiliar to him, Neckham simply made an error.
To us, confusing east-west with north-south compasswise
is an evident error as we *know* about the earth's magnetism.
But Neckham would not necessarily have known, though seamen
clearly would. So if he heard that the compass always pointed
in one direction, he could easily have decided that the direction
was east. It would be natural for a compass to point to
Jerusalem, would it not?
It would be useful to have an edited edition of Neckham and a
discussion of the latin actually used. But I don't think that
such exists.
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
I've talked about east and north upthread.
Floating a needle on water is difficult, especially in rough
seas. sticking one in a straw on the other hand (that's
longitudinally, not horizontally) gives the system some
stability even if it cuts the response time a good bit.
Nevertheless, early compasses were not very useful in
heavy weather. It took until the 18th century (IIRC)
to develop a compass system that was useful in all weathers,
and damped enough in movement to keep a steady direction.
---- Paul J. Gans
Curt Emanuel
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:earm4n$l22$1...@reader2.panix.com...
Yes - I did a quick Google and didn't see anything that had been placed
there. It's always nice when the Enlgish and Latin are placed opposite each
other. Of course Holmes isn't a complete translation - he just quotes
translated excerpts. And as you know, "translation for context" had its day
rather than translators being extremely rigorous.
However according to David, in De Naturis Rerum Neckham does speak of the
needle pointing North. I don't know which he wrote first, but if it was
Utensilium then maybe he learned a few things between the two works.
Curt Emanuel
Peter Alaca
> Curt Emanuel wrote:
>
>>>
>>
>> Interesting. I have Urban Tigner Holmes Jr's, _Daily Living in the
>> Twelfth Century: Based on the Observations of Alexander Neckham in
>> London and Paris_ ISBN: 0-299-00854-1 He quotes _De nominibus
>> utensilium_ as saying; "He should have a needle placed on a pivot;
>> the needle will rotate and revolve until the point looks toward the
>> east, and thus sailors understand where they should steer when the
>> Little Bear constellation is hidden in the storm, although this
>> constellation never sets because of the brevity of its circle." p49
>>
>> Some obvious differences in translation (not to mention the title of
>> Neckham's work). However Holmes appears certain that in this case the
>> compass points East and discusses why in some detail on page 50. In
>> his introduction Holmes states of this work, "which we translate."
>> p16 In any case, this description of a compass appears clearer. This
>> was first published in 1952.
>>
>> What translation did Gurney use?
>>
>> Curt Emanuel
>>
>>
>
> Gurney doesn't say. He has a bibliography, but De Rerum and De
> Utensilibus do not appear therein. On the other hand I would have
> some questions about a translation that turns magnetic north into
> magnetic east.
Perhaps it is not the translation.
I know 14th and 15th century landrecords from
Holland where the compass points are rotated
(almost) that way.
> [...]
--
p.a.
jackli...@earthlink.net
There are some, I would count Lucio Russo amongst them, who feel that
certain ideas from the Hellenistic "Age of Reason" were available for
the few in the 15-17th centuries. I can cite the correlation between
differential gears on the Antikythera machine and the first clocks in
the 16th.
jackli...@earthlink.net
Alexander Neckham. De naturis rerum, ed. Thomas Wright, Rerum
Britannicarum Medii Ævi Scriptores [Rolls Series] 34 (London, 1863).
942.03 G79 v. 34 STX.
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/cdwright/www/encyclop.html
De naturis rerum, libri duo. ALEXANDER NECKHAM, .
class: 942. Shelf: CHR. accession No: 3901.
with the poem of the same author, De laudibus divinae sapientiae;
ed. by Thomas Wright. Longman, Green, Longman, Roberts & Green, 1863.
lxxviiim [2], 521p. (Chronicles and memorials of Great Britain and
Ireland during the Middle Ages.)
R SCIENCE
http://www.catholic-library.org.uk/catalogue/search_results.php?action=find_subject&cur_page=99&find=
I've seen a HMSO reference too.
THEORIES OF MAGNETISM IN THE CHRISTIAN ERA
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:uXYTo9luEHIJ:wbabin.net/science/ricker3.pdf+%22De+Naturis+Rerum%22+alexander+neckham+latin&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=24&client=firefox-a
Cites in:
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/6493
https://txspace.tamu.edu/bitstream/1969.1/3235/1/etd-tamu-2005C-ANTH-Swanick
erilar
<cema...@familyonline.com> wrote:
> I have Urban Tigner Holmes Jr's, _Daily Living in the Twelfth
> Century: Based on the Observations of Alexander Neckham in London and
> Paris_
> ISBN: 0-299-00854-1
I remember reading that and wishing I could find an equivalent for
somewhere in Germany.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar),
philologist, biblioholic medievalist
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
David Starr
>
> Nevertheless, early compasses were not very useful in
> heavy weather. It took until the 18th century (IIRC)
> to develop a compass system that was useful in all weathers,
> and damped enough in movement to keep a steady direction.
>
> ---- Paul J. Gans
Compass stability in rough weather is still an issue today. I think it
is fair to say that compasses got better in this respect as time went
on. And each generation of seaman became pickier about instrument
performance. When the weather gets really bad, ships heave to and
reading the compass becomes less of an issue. A needle stuck in a straw
floating in a bowl of water is still a very useful thing to have, even
if it won't match the performance of the modern device.
David Star
Paul J Gans
>Yes - I did a quick Google and didn't see anything that had been placed
>there. It's always nice when the Enlgish and Latin are placed opposite each
>other. Of course Holmes isn't a complete translation - he just quotes
>translated excerpts. And as you know, "translation for context" had its day
>rather than translators being extremely rigorous.
>However according to David, in De Naturis Rerum Neckham does speak of the
>needle pointing North. I don't know which he wrote first, but if it was
>Utensilium then maybe he learned a few things between the two works.
Or it could be scribal error or who knows. Lots and lots of
manuscripts are filled with errors.
--- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
Several things may be being confused here. The custom
of placing north at the top of a map is relatively modern.
The usual medieval custom was to place east at the top.
Why? That's were Jerusalem was and it was closest to heaven.
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
Whoa. First, most consider that the Middle Ages end in 1500.
I prefer 1492 as a date myself... That's a few years prior to
the 15th century.
Second, I did not know that anybody had managed to disassemble
the Antikythera mechanism. It is a highly suggestive pile
of rust.
Third, the first clocks came well before the 16th century.
Fourth, who are the "few" who would have access to "certain
ideas from the Hellenistic "Age of Reason""?
--- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
You are quite right.
---- Paul J. Gans
D. Spencer Hines
Gans The Historically Ignorant & Innumerate Strikes Again!
1492 is a LATE 15th Century date -- NOT "a few years prior to the 15th
century." [sic]
Gans = Ignoramus!
Drinking & Posting Again...
DSH
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:eau68s$ekp$4...@reader2.panix.com...
pigdos
--
Doug
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tpxAg.162$Ad4....@eagle.america.net...
Peter Alaca
I was not talking about maps, but about descriptions
of parcels of land and their positions in relation to
nabouring parcels.
--
p.a.
jackli...@earthlink.net
Read Lucio Rosso's The Forgotten Revolution: How Science was born in
300BC and why it had to be reborn, 400 pages of hard scholarship.
http://www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/index.php?lang=en in the words of
Johnnie 5 from the movie "Short Circuit" 'no disassemble', in this case
x-rays.
You can call anything a clock that tells time, put a stick in the
middle of a field and you have a shadow clock. The quote from section
11.2 "The Renaissance" note 55, "Any doubt that it (the differential
gear) was an independent reinvention rather than a resumption of
Hellenistic knowledge disappears when we observe that in 16th century
astronomical clocks differential gears were employed to transform
synodic months into sidereal months, as in the Antikytehra machine" I
might add that the first minute hand appeared on a clock in 1577.
jackli...@earthlink.net
Another, less tedious, site with some illustrations
http://www.red-ice.net/specialreports/2006/02feb/antikythera.html
Paul J Gans
>Nothing like savoring a victory eh, spencer? You're the man!
He sure is. I meant to write 16th century to match the date
in the actual post I was responding to.
Hines knows that.
---- Paul J. Gans
D. Spencer Hines
>>>> I prefer 1492 as a date myself... That's a few years prior to
>>>> the 15th century.
Pogue Gans
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Hilarious!
What Pogue Gans, the little old schlockmeister of Washington Square, MEANT
to say but did NOT...
So now he's trying to do a back and fill.
Whoa! -- Indeed -- and hit that stupid New Yorker mule upside the head with
a sturdy 2 by 4.
The stupid, farblondjet old pogue ought to READ his own posts, while SOBER,
before he transmits them.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:eavqi4$9j6$1...@reader2.panix.com...
[...]
> I meant to write 16th century to match the date
> in the actual post I was responding to.
[...]
jackli...@earthlink.net
Here is my justification for calling the 15th Century the beginning of
the use of Hellenistic science in Western literature: Treatise on
architecture, engineering and the art of War by Francesco di Giorgio
Martini, 1460. Russo says it contains drawings of water wheels fed by
pressure pipes, vacuum and pressure pumps, rack-and-gear mechanisms and
many other elements from Hellenistic science.
Have you seen this site?
http://www.historyforkids.org/crafts/china/compass.htm and the main one
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/science/index.htm
Paul J Gans
>Here is my justification for calling the 15th Century the beginning of
>the use of Hellenistic science in Western literature: Treatise on
>architecture, engineering and the art of War by Francesco di Giorgio
>Martini, 1460. Russo says it contains drawings of water wheels fed by
>pressure pipes, vacuum and pressure pumps, rack-and-gear mechanisms and
>many other elements from Hellenistic science.
Many of these things go back a long way. Many were used
by the Romans and then by the medievals. Indeed, they
may well have been invented by cultures earlier than the
Greeks.
There is no claim that the medievals invented these. There
is a claim that they exploited them in amazing ways.
>Have you seen this site?
>http://www.historyforkids.org/crafts/china/compass.htm and the main one
>http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/science/index.htm
Yes I have and I am not amused. Any site like that that
pretends to getting things right *must* have citations.
Compare the compass page above and
http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/compass.html
You can check what I wrote. The citations are there.
I can't check their site to see what an authentic
Chinese compass of 200 AD really looked like.
But if you go to
http://www.geomance.com/iching/lopaneng.htm
you will discover a "compass" very much like the one
shown on the History for Kids page. And if you click
on the rings you will find that the object was used
to tell where to build a house, which element rules
a given part of the compass, etc., etc.
In other words, this is part of what we today call
"feng shui" and not at all what we'd call a compass.
I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm simply trying to
point out that technological development needs
continuity. There are very few things that are
invented in a given spot (Europe) in a given period
(500 AD - 1500 AD). Some things get changed, like
the horse harness, some get imported, like the saddle
and stirrups, and some are local duplications of
technology known elsewhere, such as the printing
press with movable type.
---- Paul J. Gans
D. Spencer Hines
>>>> I prefer 1492 as a date myself... That's a few years prior to
>>>> the 15th century.
Pogue J. Gans
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Hilarious!
Pogue Gans, the little old schlockmeister of Washington Square, now says he
MEANT to say the 16th Century but did NOT -- and we should UNDERSTAND that.
Hilarious!
That's the same hilarious excuse dumb students give the professor when they
get C's and D's on their term papers and are told that what they wrote was
unclear, factually deficient and muddled -- often even degenerating into
unintelligible gibberish.
The students then whine that the professor SHOULD have understood what they
were TRYING to say.
How Sweet It Is!
Enjoy, Virginia -- it just doesn't get any better than this.