The Sundial Challenge
Simon Pugh
last few days and I would like to present some of my ideas. I would like
to stress that this is very preliminary stuff.
======Cordon Sanitaire ===========
Warning - This could be rubbish
The polyhedral sundial has 10 faces with three visible in the picture,
upper, front and left. The gnomon on the front face is a pin that
appears perpendicular to the dial. The pin is pointing slightly
downwards, and as the slope of the style (shadow forming edge) in a
sundial must be parallel to the celestial axis, this means that this
face must point towards the equator to read correctly.
The angle of this pin to the horizontal should give us the latitude at
which the dial is designed to work, assuming that the pin is parallel
with the celestial equator. Unfortunately the angle is hard to work out
because of the foreshortening. However I was able to estimate the
foreshortening on the left-hand face by measuring the minimum and
maximum diameters of the dial. Using this information I was able to
reconstruct the shape of the left hand face. It turned out that the
upper and lower edges each diverge from the central axis by about 20-25
degrees. As the dial is resting on the lower face and the front face is
perpendicular to the axis, this means the pin, which is in line with the
axis, slopes down at the same angle. This means that the face is
designed for use at 20-25 degrees latitude or close to one of the
tropics. I found this rather worrying as the tropic of Cancer does not
run though any where that looks likely, in fact it passes fairly close
to Mecca.
I was able to find an image of the dial where some of the numbers are
readable. I found that the upper and front dials have midday numbered as
12 but the left-hand dial has it numbered as 6. This suggests to me that
the upper and front dials are designed to read clock time and the left
face church hours.
It is possible to design a dial that would work in the position of the
left dial however the hour lines would be highly asymmetrical. Therefore
I suspect that the dial has to be rotated by 90 degrees to read church
hours. The front face would also read correctly as the 6 o'clock
position would become the midday position.
Looking at the numbers further, all the dials are numbered so that the
shadow falls to the right of the gnomon in the morning and to the left
in the afternoon. This presents us with a problem because this doesn't
work in the northern hemisphere with the dial set up as it is in the
picture i.e. with the front gnomon pointing downwards.
It came as rather a shock to realise the dial could only work in the
southern hemisphere, but if you look along the tropic of Capricorn it
runs near Sao Paulo and Rio in Brazil. It seems hard to believe that the
sundial would have been designed to work here but the French did have
some involvement with this region in the early 16th C and it appears to
be the only likely region along the tropic of Capricorn.
Turning now to the left face, I haven't completely satisfied myself of
this but I suspect that the shadow is not intended to read a real time
because the dial does not read correctly in this position.
Now for the really wacky bit, if the sundial reads 9:30 ish in Brazil,
what is the significance of this? The difference in longitude between
Jerusalem and Sao Paulo is about 80 degrees, at 15 degrees per hour this
gives a time difference of 5 hours 20 minutes. This puts the time in
Jerusalem at around 3 pm. Now according to the bible, Christ died at
about the 9th hour or 3 pm. So the dial could be recording the
millennium in Brazil (remembering that the date on the picture is 11
April 1533).
All this is based on rather inaccurate estimates made from an image of
the sundial that is far from ideal so if done accurately, the numbers
may not work.
======================
So there it is, I hope I have shown that picture puzzling can be fun. I
wouldn't normally have presented this sort of thing without more
evidence but the review of North's book, The Ambassadors' Secret,
mentions that South America is involved in his theories in some way.
So here's the challenge: prove me wrong (or right).
--
Simon Pugh
D. Spencer Hines
scientific instrument, with an alleged ten faces ---- in a two
dimensional painting ---- is worth the powder to blow it to hell?
2. Why not read Professor North's book, instead of playing High School
stickfinger?
Go out and buy the book.
Homo Ludens.
"The millennium in Brazil..."
Hilarious!
1,500 years is a millennium?
Hilarious!
There's your first mistake.
Deus Vult.
"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs."
Hunter Thompson
"When it comes to arrogance, power, and lack of accountability,
journalists are probably the only people on the planet who make lawyers
look good."
Steven Brill
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
----------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Simon Pugh" <si...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:O3QC8rDD...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk...
Simon Pugh
A Point by point refutation is required.
Anything else is just bluff and bluster.
n article <7Qw68.20$lV2....@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> writes
--
Simon Pugh
D. Spencer Hines
It's not worth the time and effort, Pogue Pugh.
You've posted errant chaff.
Get Professor Norton's book ---- buy it, like an honest man and a true
scholar.
Read And Study It ---- And Only THEN Post.
Your speculative thumbsuckings and warblings based on an Internet image
of a two-dimensional Holbein painting, of an allegedly ten-faced
scientific instrument are totally worthless.
And DO learn what a MILLENNIUM is.
Deus Vult.
"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs."
Hunter Thompson
"When it comes to arrogance, power, and lack of accountability,
journalists are probably the only people on the planet who make lawyers
look good."
Steven Brill
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
----------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Simon Pugh" <Si...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:WJCEWWDb...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk...
Martin Reboul
D. Spencer Hines was as shallow, uninformed and arrogant as ever...
> Horsefeathers.
No Panther Urine for a long while I notice?
> It's not worth the time and effort, Pogue Pugh.
>
> You've posted errant chaff.
Silly fellow David - you obviously have no idea 'Mr Nautical Twilight'.
Rather than attempt to have a look at this intriguing matter yourself, or
offer any opinion or alternative theory, you choose to sneer, bluster and
insult. Hardly surprising from one who clearly has no knowledge of
navigation, celestial mechanics, symbolism or art history, and wouldn't know
a sextant if it was shoved up his sorry backside. Some 'sailor' - huh!
> Get Professor Norton's book ---- buy it, like an honest man and a true
> scholar.
>
> Read And Study It ---- And Only THEN Post.
>
> Your speculative thumbsuckings and warblings based on an Internet image
> of a two-dimensional Holbein painting, of an allegedly ten-faced
> scientific instrument are totally worthless.
Why don't you get a decent copy of the picture (as I am currently trying to
do) and have a look at it Spencey? I will coment when I've had a look and a
good think - why not do the same? Ah, but then you have no idea about the
subject do you..... wouldn't be good to make any more of a fool of yourself
than you already have, would it!
And what are all these Hunter Thompson quotes in aid of? Not one of your
favourites surely?
Cheers
Martin
Simon Pugh
<martin...@virgin.net> writes
You are absolutely right, Martin, and this is partly why I posted the
sundial challenge.
This subject should be meat and drink to an "old sea dog" like Spencer,
who will doubtless be a dab hand with the sextant. Reducing a sight and
finding a position line should be second nature to him, he should know
things like when to apply a parallax correction to a sight.
This problem should be right up his street so why won't he take up the
challenge?.
--
Simon Pugh
Simon Pugh
so I would like to say a a little more about how I think the sundial is
supposed to work.
The clockwise numbering of the visible dials means the dial will only
read correctly in the southern hemisphere with the pin shaped gnomon
pointing downwards. However if the dial is rocked back on its self so
the pin points upwards and then the instrument is rotated to point north
then the dial will read the correct time at the tropic of Cancer. I will
also assume that the numbering on the rearward facing dials runs
anticlockwise so they read correctly facing south.
The sundial is still pretty useless because it only works on the tropic
of Cancer but there is a way round this. If you placed the instrument on
a stand that would bring the pin into the correct alignment with the
celestial axis, the instrument should work at any latitude north of the
Tropic provided you had the right stand.
I need to check this out with my sundial design program but I am away
from base this week end so I can't till next week.
--
Simon Pugh
Tim O'Neill
Simon Pugh wrote:
> The sundial is still pretty useless because it only works on the tropic
> of Cancer but there is a way round this. If you placed the instrument on
> a stand that would bring the pin into the correct alignment with the
> celestial axis, the instrument should work at any latitude north of the
> Tropic provided you had the right stand.
Some polyhedral dials were designed with adjustable stands for
this reason. The stand had a compass set in its base so the user
could be assured of a correct alignment and a table painted, carved
or engraved on the base to give the correct angle at which the stand
had to be adjusted for different latitudes. The stand was in two
interlocking parts with a pin or bolt and nut to hold them together.
By loosening the nut, adjusting the angle of the join to one
appropriate to the latitude and then tightening the bolt again the
user could make it accurate for any latitude of a given
hemisphere.
You might find Albert E. Waugh's 'Sundials: Their Theory and
Construction' (Dover: New York, 1973) useful. Waugh shows
a polyhedral dial like the one I've described in Fig. 16.5 (p. 156).
He also details the ways to lay out vertical south, vertical north,
vertical east/west and horizontal dials. A polyhedral dial is
essentially one which includes one of these types of dial on
each appropriate face of the polyhedron.
Nicholas Kratzer was Henry VIII's astrologer, a friend of
Cardinal Wolsey and a famous mathematician and maker of
scientific instruments. I remember seeing one very rich dial
which he made for Wolsey in the Oxford Museum of the
History of Science, which is a kind of heaven for anyone who
is interested in astrolabes, quadrants, dials and other very
early scientific instruments. There's a (slightly blurred)
picture of it here:
http://www.mathsyear2000.org/museum/floor2/gallery4/gal3p2.html
The two Germans, Holbein and Kratzer, knew each other, and
Holbein painted a portrait of Kratzer in 1528 which shows four
dials, with Kratzer holding a partially completed fifth one:
http://www.oneonta.edu/faculty/farberas/arth/Images/Ambassadors/Holbein_Kratzer.jpg
If you compare this dial to the one in 'The Ambassadors' it is
almost identical in design and very similar in the layout of its
faces, leading some to believe that Kratzer advised Holbein
on the depiction of the dial in the later painting ('The
Ambassadors' is dated 1533).
This page gives a details of both dials for the purposes of
comparison and also gives a better picture of Kratzer's Wolsey
dial:
http://www.oneonta.edu/faculty/farberas/arth/ARTH214/polyhderal_sundial.html
The same site gives quite a bit of information on 'The Ambassadors'
and makes some interpretations as to what some of the symbolism
may mean. You can click on links on the page to look at details of
the painting and explore some of these interpretations. It's interesting,
for example, to know that one of the books on the lower shelf in the
painting is Peter Apian's 'A New and Reliable Instruction Book of
Calculation for Merchants' (Ingolstadt: G. Apianum, 1527) and that
the book of music next to the lute is Johannnes Walther's 'Geistlich
Gesangbuhli' ('Holy Hymbook') - a Lutheran hymnbook published in
Wittenberg in 1524.
Some of these details seem to be more significant than others. The
books mentioned above *may* represent two of the Seven Liberal
Arts as has been claimed, but I also hadn't noticed that Dintville
(the guy on the left) carries a dagger inscribed with his age while
his companion Selve (on the right) is leaning on a book which is
similarly inscribed with *his* age. Whether you agree with the
interpretation that this makes Dintville a representation of man's
active aspect while Selve represents the contemplative life
or not is another matter, but clearly these details were *meant* to
be puzzled over and interpreted, much as 'conceits' in the
literature of this period was.
People who are ignorant of the period, of course, will dismiss
such interpretation as 'wild speculation'. ;>
Hope some of that helps.
Cheers,
Tim O'Neill
D. Spencer Hines
forethought.
Do pay attention, Pogue Pugh, and maybe some of it will rub off on you.
But you still need to read Professor Norton's book ---- not just work
from that pissant review you have in hand.
Deus Vult.
"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs."
Hunter Thompson
"When it comes to arrogance, power, and lack of accountability,
journalists are probably the only people on the planet who make lawyers
look good."
Steven Brill
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
----------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Tim O'Neill" <sca...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:3C5C5B5E...@bigpond.com...
D. Spencer Hines
Now, that was a useful, serious post ---- which obviously involved some
forethought.
Do pay attention, Pogue Pugh, and maybe some of it will rub off on you.
But you still need to read Professor North's book ---- not just work
Martin Reboul
Simon Pugh
> You are absolutely right, Martin, and this is partly why I posted the
> sundial challenge.
>
> This subject should be meat and drink to an "old sea dog" like Spencer,
> who will doubtless be a dab hand with the sextant. Reducing a sight and
> finding a position line should be second nature to him, he should know
> things like when to apply a parallax correction to a sight.
>
> This problem should be right up his street so why won't he take up the
> challenge?.
Perhaps because they never let him near a rowing boat, never mind a ship.
Little call for navigation when allocating housing - apart from an A-Z I
suppose?
This is a most interesting subject - I'm going to have a good think.....
Cheers
Martin
Simon Pugh
<sca...@bigpond.com> writes
>
>
>Simon Pugh wrote:
>
>> The sundial is still pretty useless because it only works on the tropic
>> of Cancer but there is a way round this. If you placed the instrument on
>> a stand that would bring the pin into the correct alignment with the
>> celestial axis, the instrument should work at any latitude north of the
>> Tropic provided you had the right stand.
>
>Some polyhedral dials were designed with adjustable stands for
>this reason. The stand had a compass set in its base so the user
>could be assured of a correct alignment and a table painted, carved
>or engraved on the base to give the correct angle at which the stand
>had to be adjusted for different latitudes. The stand was in two
>interlocking parts with a pin or bolt and nut to hold them together.
>By loosening the nut, adjusting the angle of the join to one
>appropriate to the latitude and then tightening the bolt again the
>user could make it accurate for any latitude of a given
>hemisphere.
>
>You might find Albert E. Waugh's 'Sundials: Their Theory and
>Construction' (Dover: New York, 1973) useful. Waugh shows
>a polyhedral dial like the one I've described in Fig. 16.5 (p. 156).
>He also details the ways to lay out vertical south, vertical north,
>vertical east/west and horizontal dials. A polyhedral dial is
>essentially one which includes one of these types of dial on
>each appropriate face of the polyhedron.
>
Thank you for the information Tim. It is good to know I was on the right
track with the stand idea. I do like to try and work things through for
my self as you probably gather.
I do in fact have a 20 page article on the interpretation of the
Ambassadors which covers most aspects of the picture very thoroughly.
However I was waiting until I get to see North's book before going into
it as his is supposed to be a "radical reinterpretation".
The picture is so complex that it could merit a whole series of threads
if people are interested.
To go back to the sundial again:
Recapitulating how I think it is supposed to be used: The sundial is a
clever polyhedral design that in principle can be made to operate at any
latitude north or south, if orientated correctly and if provided with a
stand that can hold it at any angle from horizontal to vertical.
It has an added cool feature that allows it to tell either church hours
or clock time by rotating back and forth on its axis through 90 degrees.
Tim do you know if this is correct?
The Brazil business is just a bit of fluff exploring the premise that
the dial is intended to show the 1500th (just for Spencer) anniversary
of Christ's death and then asking the question "Is there anywhere in the
world where this would be true?".
Bizarrely this appears to be somewhere in Brazil but could this possibly
be what Holbein intended? It seems highly improbable, and it is most
likely that the fact that the French had an interest in Brazil is just
an amusing coincidence.
I think the interest in Brazil was something to do with Brazil Wood
which was used to make a red dye. Now what about de Dinteville's shirt I
wonder what dye was used to make that? <g>
--
Simon Pugh
Simon Pugh
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> writes
>Recte:
>
>Now, that was a useful, serious post ---- which obviously involved some
>forethought.
I certainly was, but when are we going to see some content from you
Spencer?
--
Simon Pugh
Tim O'Neill
Simon Pugh wrote:
> Thank you for the information Tim. It is good to know I was on the right
> track with the stand idea. I do like to try and work things through for
> my self as you probably gather.
Then I'd definitely recommend Waugh's book. I found it in a library
when researching medieval astrolabes years ago and soon bought a
copy so that I could make my own polyhedral dial. I only got as
far as making a cardboard mock-up, which I still have somewhere,
but haven't got around to making the finished product in wood.
> I do in fact have a 20 page article on the interpretation of the
> Ambassadors which covers most aspects of the picture very thoroughly.
> However I was waiting until I get to see North's book before going into
> it as his is supposed to be a "radical reinterpretation".
Unlike Hines - who, as we all know, likes to wax pontifical about
books he's never even read.
> To go back to the sundial again:
>
> Recapitulating how I think it is supposed to be used: The sundial is a
> clever polyhedral design that in principle can be made to operate at any
> latitude north or south, if orientated correctly and if provided with a
> stand that can hold it at any angle from horizontal to vertical.
> It has an added cool feature that allows it to tell either church hours
> or clock time by rotating back and forth on its axis through 90 degrees.
> Tim do you know if this is correct?
Possibly. Sorry - are you saying that a polyhedral dial *could*
have this feature or that surviving examples do?
> The Brazil business is just a bit of fluff exploring the premise that
> the dial is intended to show the 1500th (just for Spencer) anniversary
> of Christ's death and then asking the question "Is there anywhere in the
> world where this would be true?".
>
> Bizarrely this appears to be somewhere in Brazil but could this possibly
> be what Holbein intended? It seems highly improbable, and it is most
> likely that the fact that the French had an interest in Brazil is just
> an amusing coincidence.
The terrestial sphere in the painting does show the New World though,
and one of the features marked on it is the line demarcating the line of
division between Spanish and Portugese colonial claims established
by the Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494. The sphere is very close to one
of the globes made by Johann Schoner, and several of Schoner's
globes mention Brazil directly:
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ren/Ren1/330mono.html
I'm pretty sceptical about Brazil having any real signficance in the
painting however. Still, the idea could be worth exploring a little
further.
> I think the interest in Brazil was something to do with Brazil Wood
> which was used to make a red dye. Now what about de Dinteville's shirt I
> wonder what dye was used to make that? <g>
You seem to be onto something. No doubt there's some oblique
reference to the Hy Brasil of ancient Irish legend, therefore a clear
connection to the 'Navigatio' of St Brendan. The Knights Templar
must be involved in this theory somehow - but how?
Yours speculatively,
Tim O'Neill
Simon Pugh
<Si...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <tRZ68.124$Ml3....@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
><D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> writes
>>Recte:
>>
>>Now, that was a useful, serious post ---- which obviously involved some
>>forethought.
>
>I certainly was, but when are we going to see some content from you
>Spencer?
"I" should read "It"
--
Simon Pugh
David C. Pugh
>
(....)
> You seem to be onto something. No doubt there's some oblique
> reference to the Hy Brasil of ancient Irish legend, therefore a
clear
> connection to the 'Navigatio' of St Brendan. The Knights Templar
> must be involved in this theory somehow - but how?
To indulge my curiosity, is Brazil named in any way "for" Hy Brasil or
is it a linguistic coincidence?
You remember the film "Erik the Viking"? He went to Hy Brasil, but I'm
sure you'll be interested in hearing that in Norway this was subtitled
as "Yggdrasil". The motto of Norwegian subtitlers is "If you don't
know (and you don't, otherwise you wouldn't have got the job in the
first place), never ask".
David
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>Tim O'Neill <sca...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>news:3C5D29C4...@bigpond.com...
>> You seem to be onto something. No doubt there's some oblique
>> reference to the Hy Brasil of ancient Irish legend, therefore a
>> clear
>> connection to the 'Navigatio' of St Brendan. The Knights Templar
>> must be involved in this theory somehow - but how?
>To indulge my curiosity, is Brazil named in any way "for" Hy Brasil or
>is it a linguistic coincidence?
Not clear. The likeliest possibility seems to be that the S. American
land was named for one of its products, now usually called
<brazilwood>; an early name was <terra de brasil> 'red-dye-wood land'.
The name of the wood is perhaps a corruption of some oriental term,
but no one seems to be sure. The name replaced that given by Pedro
Alvares Cabral, who named the land <Terra de Vera Cruz>, and George
Stewart suggests that perhaps the old idea of a <(Hy) Brasil> in the
Atlantic contributed to the replacement.
[...]
Brian
Simon Pugh
<sca...@bigpond.com> writes
>
>
>Simon Pugh wrote:
>
>> Thank you for the information Tim. It is good to know I was on the right
>> track with the stand idea. I do like to try and work things through for
>> my self as you probably gather.
>
>Then I'd definitely recommend Waugh's book. I found it in a library
>when researching medieval astrolabes years ago and soon bought a
>copy so that I could make my own polyhedral dial. I only got as
>far as making a cardboard mock-up, which I still have somewhere,
>but haven't got around to making the finished product in wood.
Yes I was thinking of making a cardboard version, should be quite
simple, but I was going to wait to get the correct dimensions from
North. Unfortunately our library doesn't have Waugh's sundial book so I
guess it will be an ILL job. :(
>
>> I do in fact have a 20 page article on the interpretation of the
>> Ambassadors which covers most aspects of the picture very thoroughly.
>> However I was waiting until I get to see North's book before going into
>> it as his is supposed to be a "radical reinterpretation".
>
>Unlike Hines - who, as we all know, likes to wax pontifical about
>books he's never even read.
He really should be able to contribute to this, seeing how is an ex
naval man.
>
>> To go back to the sundial again:
>>
>> Recapitulating how I think it is supposed to be used: The sundial is a
>> clever polyhedral design that in principle can be made to operate at any
>> latitude north or south, if orientated correctly and if provided with a
>> stand that can hold it at any angle from horizontal to vertical.
>
>> It has an added cool feature that allows it to tell either church hours
>> or clock time by rotating back and forth on its axis through 90 degrees.
>> Tim do you know if this is correct?
>
>Possibly. Sorry - are you saying that a polyhedral dial *could*
>have this feature or that surviving examples do?
I intended - have you heard of a medieval dial that has this feature,
either extant or described.
>
>> The Brazil business is just a bit of fluff exploring the premise that
>> the dial is intended to show the 1500th (just for Spencer) anniversary
>> of Christ's death and then asking the question "Is there anywhere in the
>> world where this would be true?".
>>
>> Bizarrely this appears to be somewhere in Brazil but could this possibly
>> be what Holbein intended? It seems highly improbable, and it is most
>> likely that the fact that the French had an interest in Brazil is just
>> an amusing coincidence.
>
>The terrestial sphere in the painting does show the New World though,
>and one of the features marked on it is the line demarcating the line of
>division between Spanish and Portugese colonial claims established
>by the Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494. The sphere is very close to one
>of the globes made by Johann Schoner, and several of Schoner's
>globes mention Brazil directly:
For anyone interested in the globe here are a couple of sites, the
second is from the site that has the sundial images that Tim gave
earlier.
http://www.greavesandthomas.co.uk/facsimile/globe_holbein.html
http://www.oneonta.edu/faculty/farberas/arth/ARTH214/terrest_globe.html
>
>http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ren/Ren1/330mono.html
>
>I'm pretty sceptical about Brazil having any real signficance in the
>painting however. Still, the idea could be worth exploring a little
>further.
Yes, I think it is the sort of crazy idea that merits a little
investigation "just in case", but without any real expectations.
>
>> I think the interest in Brazil was something to do with Brazil Wood
>> which was used to make a red dye. Now what about de Dinteville's shirt I
>> wonder what dye was used to make that? <g>
>
>You seem to be onto something. No doubt there's some oblique
>reference to the Hy Brasil of ancient Irish legend, therefore a clear
>connection to the 'Navigatio' of St Brendan. The Knights Templar
>must be involved in this theory somehow - but how?
<grin>
I knew those Templars had to be in there somewhere.
>
>Yours speculatively,
>
>Tim O'Neill
>
--
Simon Pugh
David C. Pugh
Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
news:3c5d60b7...@enews.newsguy.com...
Much obliged!
David
Simon Pugh
program there has been a development, but first a correction.
I rechecked the times readings on the sundial and I got them the wrong
way round, the upper and front dial read 10:30 and the left dial 9:30.
This is actually better for the mad Brazil theory because it means the
time in Jerusalem can be taken as 4pm, which is the time the anniversary
of Christ's death according to the review of North's book.
After checking things I am reasonably confident that the sundial could
work as I described with fixed gnomons and a stand, however there is a
snag.
I have assumed that the style angle of the triangular gnomons is 22.5
degrees, the mid point of my estimate. While checking that the
calibration on the dial would not have to change at different latitudes,
I realised that the hour angles on the dial have to be widely splayed
out in the morning and evening and very compressed together around
midday. I can't see the dials well enough to do a reasonable estimate of
the angles between the hours but in the picture, the hours look much too
evenly spaced. The plot thickens...
--
Simon Pugh
Simon Pugh
something from the part on the polyhedral sun dial.
The angle between the faces and the axis is 20.1 degrees which North
rounds down to 20 degrees - just within my estimate.
He says quite a bit about the operation of the dial but I will confine
myself to the visible faces. The upper and left face appear to be
calibrated for use with 51.5 degree gnomons with the dials in a
horizontal position i.e. not as in the picture. However these faces are
fitted with 20 degree gnomons which North believes is deliberately
incorrect. The font face appears to be correctly set up provided the
gnomon is aligned properly which it is not.
So Holbein has deliberately set up the sundial in a way that can't work
but North has no explanation for why this should be.
Now to the important bit, the dial is precisely positioned and aligned
so the noon line on the left face is at 27 degrees to the horizontal. If
projected up it points at Christ's head passing though significant
points on the way.
Incidentally if anyone gets to look at the book there is an error in the
illustration on page 135. The 27 degree line is shown passing along the
hypotenuse of the dart gnomon rather than the noon line (this is
possible because the figure is a collage).
The 27 degree line is crucial to other aspect of the picture that I
can't go into yet,
The sundial can't operate properly but the shadows on it are appropriate
to the position of the sun at 4 pm on 11 April 1533. The position of the
sun is calculated from other information in the picture and assumes that
we are looking east with the table aligned north-south, from left to
right. At least they are nearly appropriate, the left and front face are
OK but the upper face is not and North believes that the errant shadow
is a smudge on the picture.
So where does this leave the Brazil hypothesis? Well, alive and well as
North has left a nice little slot for it and I will post on this later.
--
Simon Pugh
Simon Pugh
It is perhaps worth saying that the polyhedral dial is incredibly
accurately drawn which has lead some to suggest that it was made by
optical means, such as with a camera obscura, this may have a bearing on
my explanation at the end.
It seems from North's analysis that Holbein's main concern was to use
the polyhedral dial to show the 27 degree line. Now let us suppose that
he also wanted to have the dial show a time that that marked the
anniversary of Christ's death.
As far as I can see it is impossible to both get the noon line on a side
face to 27 degrees and pointing towards Christ and to have a visible
dial with a 51.5 degree gnomon reading a valid time simultaneously.
In the alignment in the picture, 51.5 degree dials would read junk. We
can imagine Holbein and Kratzer trying to figure this out.
The front dial is correctly calibrated, and in the configuration in the
picture, it would read the correct time at 20 south (because of the
clockwise dial numbering). The dial seen in London is showing 10:30 and
the time difference between this and 4pm is 5.5 hours. At 4pm in
Jerusalem (the anniversary of Christ's death according to North) , the
dial would read 10:30 in Brazil - a place of political interest.
Kratzer would have realised that if only the upper dial were calibrated
for a 20 degree gnomon and such a gnomon were fitted, it would also read
10:30.
Now we need to go back to North, I mentioned the problem with the upper
shadow. In fact it should read 11:30 according to North's calculation.
If we translate the angle of this shadow onto 20 degree gnomon
calibration it would read about 10:30. But the dial has 51.5 degree
calibration and we can imagine Holbein adding a dab of paint to get the
shadow to read 10:30 thus explaining the "smudge".
The left dial would not be expected to show the time but I think the
position of the shadow is appropriate but I need to check this further.
Now the reason for the sundial being set up with 20 degree gnomons is
clear, it is to allow it to read the anniversary of Christ's death. It
is also a complex puzzle with an elegant solution which I am sure would
have pleased Kratzer.
So does anyone find this plausible?
I would like to check all the numbers and I wonder if anyone who has
mathematical ability or a software package that can model the polyhedral
dial and explore how the shadows would fall in various configurations,
would be interested in helping.
--
Simon Pugh
Martin Reboul
Simon Pugh wrote...
> Now back to the Brazil hypothesis.
>
> It is perhaps worth saying that the polyhedral dial is incredibly
> accurately drawn which has lead some to suggest that it was made by
> optical means, such as with a camera obscura, this may have a bearing on
> my explanation at the end.
>
> It seems from North's analysis that Holbein's main concern was to use
> the polyhedral dial to show the 27 degree line. Now let us suppose that
> he also wanted to have the dial show a time that that marked the
> anniversary of Christ's death.
27 degrees - there's another thing in this picture which is as near as
dammit precisely aligned at this angle (according to my print and
trigonometry using R>P P>R functions on my medieval scientific calculator) .
If you draw a line through the distorted skull, from the odd little
'pointer' sticking through its teeth to the furthest elongation of the back
of the cranium, it is 27 degrees up from the 'baseline' of the picture. I
wondered why it was tilted?
Whether it is significant of not, a line draw through the center of the man
on the left's medallion and the peak of the hat of the man on the right is
also very close to 27 degrees (anything symbolic in these items? The hat of
the LH chap seems to be at a similar angle too (not enough definition to
tell exactly).
I realise one can spend all day drawing 'ley lines' through various points
and 'discovering' nothing but confusion and red herrings, but the alignment
of the skull (esp. with that specially marked 'pointer' which I don't
believe it is a snake - Holbein could do better than that, even if it is a
rather crappy skull) seems quite a coincidence?
Hmmm - perhaps an additional approach from another angle (Ahem! Sorry,
couldn't resist), might help to sort this out perhaps? Who were the
ambassadors, what were they and their masters/countries up to at the time,
who comissioned the picture and why (they must have requested the inclusion
of the skull at least, or asked why there was a big splodge across Holbein's
work rather indignantly?), and why would there be a need or requirement for
such cleverly 'hidden messages' anyway? I find all the trig. a trifle
nykosian* for my limited abilities!
However, could it be that the late Mr Holbein is looking down on us all with
great amusement and delight, as we continue to fall for his mischief after
all these years?
If so, all I can say is that you've provided us all with a great deal of
pleasure over the centuries, you were one of the best in my book, and I wish
you'd been in time to do justice to Richard III and Warwick the Kingmaker.
Thanks!
Cheers
Martin
*Nykosian = impossible to understand, beyond reason, incredibly difficult
(Ogit, vulg.)
Simon Pugh
<martin...@virgin.net> writes
Martin I only got the book yesterday and have not had time to do more
than skim one or two sections but I will do my best to answer.
>
>Simon Pugh wrote...
>> Now back to the Brazil hypothesis.
>>
>> It is perhaps worth saying that the polyhedral dial is incredibly
>> accurately drawn which has lead some to suggest that it was made by
>> optical means, such as with a camera obscura, this may have a bearing on
>> my explanation at the end.
>>
>> It seems from North's analysis that Holbein's main concern was to use
>> the polyhedral dial to show the 27 degree line. Now let us suppose that
>> he also wanted to have the dial show a time that that marked the
>> anniversary of Christ's death.
>
>27 degrees - there's another thing in this picture which is as near as
>dammit precisely aligned at this angle (according to my print and
>trigonometry using R>P P>R functions on my medieval scientific calculator) .
>If you draw a line through the distorted skull, from the odd little
>'pointer' sticking through its teeth to the furthest elongation of the back
>of the cranium, it is 27 degrees up from the 'baseline' of the picture. I
>wondered why it was tilted?
Martin it is easier to start with the upper line. The significant
points are:
The noon line of the left hand dial on the polyhedral sundial,
The point on the quadrant (white) indicated by the tip of the vertical
pin.
The centre of the solar instrument scale. (arc shaped next to the white
thing)
The celestial globe - sun (not visible) Deneb in Cygnus (also known as
the Northern Cross), Vega in Lyra (called vultur caedens)
The left eye of Dinteville
The left eye of Christ
North spend a lot of time on the problems of finding the viewpoint of
anamorphic pictures. The distance is important as well as the angle. The
view point for the skull is at 27 degrees and 36 inches from the skull
where this line intersects the upper line.
27 degrees is important because it 3x3x3 - the trinity^3
North thinks the reason for selecting 4pm for the anniversary rather
than the traditional 3pm is because it allowed the sun's altitude to be
27.
There is more to it than this but I haven't read the book yet.
>
>Whether it is significant of not, a line draw through the center of the man
>on the left's medallion and the peak of the hat of the man on the right is
>also very close to 27 degrees (anything symbolic in these items? The hat of
>the LH chap seems to be at a similar angle too (not enough definition to
>tell exactly).
>
>I realise one can spend all day drawing 'ley lines' through various points
>and 'discovering' nothing but confusion and red herrings, but the alignment
>of the skull (esp. with that specially marked 'pointer' which I don't
>believe it is a snake - Holbein could do better than that, even if it is a
>rather crappy skull) seems quite a coincidence?
>
<snip>
>> I would like to check all the numbers and I wonder if anyone who has
>> mathematical ability or a software package that can model the polyhedral
>> dial and explore how the shadows would fall in various configurations,
>> would be interested in helping.
>
>Hmmm - perhaps an additional approach from another angle (Ahem! Sorry,
>couldn't resist), might help to sort this out perhaps? Who were the
>ambassadors, what were they and their masters/countries up to at the time,
>who comissioned the picture and why (they must have requested the inclusion
>of the skull at least, or asked why there was a big splodge across Holbein's
>work rather indignantly?), and why would there be a need or requirement for
>such cleverly 'hidden messages' anyway? I find all the trig. a trifle
>nykosian* for my limited abilities!
As far as I can see a major reason for the skull is an allusion
Golgotha, the Place of the Skull where the crucifixion took place.
>
>However, could it be that the late Mr Holbein is looking down on us all with
>great amusement and delight, as we continue to fall for his mischief after
>all these years?
Yes, I think he would be delighted.
>If so, all I can say is that you've provided us all with a great deal of
>pleasure over the centuries, you were one of the best in my book, and I wish
>you'd been in time to do justice to Richard III and Warwick the Kingmaker.
>Thanks!
> Cheers
> Martin
>*Nykosian = impossible to understand, beyond reason, incredibly difficult
>(Ogit, vulg.)
>
>
For Starry Nighters the sky as seen on the celestial globe can be seen
in the evening of 11 April 1533 about 9pm.
Remember the Lyra is shown as Vultur Caedens to the left of Cygnus..
Cephus is close to the north on the right.
Pegasus can be seen below the horizon just above Dinteville's left arm.
And for Spencer, North has a chapter called "Symbols of the Millennium"
in which he discusses 1500th anniversary of Christ's death.
--
Simon Pugh
Afropea
two different interpretations. The first is from James Snyder's "Northern
Renaissance Art" 1985. The second is from Andrew Graham-Dixon's "Renaissance"
1999.
"The big painting, nearly seven feet square, portrays two Frenchmen, one a
wealthy landholder, the other a churchman, standing full-length on either side
of a tiered table, or what-not, that fills the central axis. To the left stand
the elegantly attired Jean de Dinteville, lord of Polisy and bailly of Troyes,
who served five times as French ambassador to England. He wears the chain of
the Order of Saint Michael and carries a scabbard with a dagger in his right
hand. His left arm rests comfortably on the top shelf of the what-not.
Opposite him is Gorges de Selve, dressed in the vestments of the bishop of
Lavaut, who visited De Dinteville in May 1533 during his service as ambassador
to the Holy See. De Selve was a well-known scholar and lover of music, and he
was a friend of Kratzer. He also spoke German and was regarded by some as
being sympathetic to the cause of the Reformation. The what-not, cluttered
with numerous objects, is placed against a rich green brocade curtain. In the
top left corner a tiny crucifix can be seen; otherwise the background is
unadorned.
Holbein's painting of the *Ambassadors* has often been said to initiate an
"Eyckian Renaissance" in his works, although, of course, there is no reason to
believe that Holbein was consciously doing so. The wealth of detail and the
delicate treatment of various textures bathed in an even light--the ermine
collar and lined coat of De Dinteville, the rich fabric of De Selve's costume,
the shiny marble floor--bring to mind Van Eyck's incredible microscopic style.
But other than the sheer technical virtuosity, there are other aspects of the
double portrait, unusual in Holbein's art, that remind one of the early Flemish
painter.
In speaking of the disguised symbolism in Van Eyck's works we refer to the
extrinsic and intrinsic meanings that objects and things have on many levels,
as facts in nature, as symbols. It has been noted that Van Eyck expanded this
symbolism beyond the individual object (a mirror, a flower, a sculptured
capital, etc.) to encompass the entire painted world by cleverly juxtaposing
two or more symbolic "environments" within on realistic setting. One way in
which Van Eyck accomplished this was to divide his world into parts by means of
magnetic axes filled with intricate eye-catching details that in themselves
were symbolic too. Recall the subtle divisions in the *Arnolfini Wedding*
portrait and the *Madonna with Chancellor Nicholas Rolin*. In the
*Ambassadors* Holbein employed a similar device, but the juxtaposition is not
one of husband and wife or donor and Madonna, but surprisingly, state and
church, a confrontation as old as antiquity, one that we can trace from the
Justinian mosaics in San Vitale of the sixth century to the frontispieces of
later medieval manuscripts. In imperial court portraiture, representatives of
the church, on one side of the emperor, confront those of the state on the
other, but there the juxtaposition is much more subtle.
In the *Ambassadors*, De Dinteville, lord of Polisy, represents the power of
the state. His regal costume, his chain of the Order of Saint Michael, and,
most of all, his scabbard and dagger, serve as overt attributes of his station
in society. Bishop De Selve, opposite him, wears the robe of a clergyman and
rests his right elbow on the Bible on the upper shelf, as the representative of
the church. The free central axis that links the two worlds is occupied by a
high table with two tiers, and the instruments and objects displayed
differentiate the upper from the lower, the domain of the heavens and that of
the earth.
This is clearly presented, first of all, by the two globes. Below is an
exacting reproduction of a terrestrial globe, the type designed by a German
geographer, Johann Schoner, in Nuremberg in 1523. Gores, visible across its
surface, mark the voyage of Magellan around the world (1520-22), and a number
of continents, countries, and cities are named (Africa, Syria, Paris, etc.),
including the site of Polisy, De Dinteville's estate, which Holbein added.
Directly above it is the larger celestial globe with various heavenly
constellations indicated; Galacia, Perseus, Pisces, etc. In keeping with the
division of heaven and earth, the intricate instruments scattered across the
top shelf are those used for the measuring of altitudes, positions, and times
of the heavenly bodies, two sundials, one cylindrical, the other polyhedral; a
quadrant and a torquetum, both used for determining angular latitudes and
positions; and an unidentified object. On the lower shelf, below and to the
right of the terrestrial globe, are tools and instruments of the arts (compass
and square), music (lute and music book), and the sciences (book on
arithmetic), many of which can be precisely identified as to date and origin.
Two details are of some significance in interpreting the terrestrial zone,
which is emphatically marked off from the upper level by an elegant oriental
carpet. The lute has a broken string which, according to contemporary emblem
books, refers to political disharmony in the world (England Versus France or
the Hapsburgs?), and the hymn book beneath it displays choral songs of Martin
Luther published in Wittenberg in 1524. Finally, the lowest level, that of the
mosaic floor, is explicitly mundane. It has been pointed out that even in this
detail, Holbein has reproduced specific objects; here the floor of *opus
alexandrinum* copies (?) that in the chapel of Abbot Ware at Westminster Abbey.
However, it should be noted that the weight of our secular ruler, De
Dinterville, is firmly planted on the very center of one of the large circular
patterns of the mosaic as if he were claiming it as his domain.
More surprising is the strange amorphous shape that fills the gap between the
two figures. Holbein here introduces one of the many pictorial puzzles popular
in Mannerist art throughout Europe. When viewed from an acute angle from the
right, below, the strange object appears as a distorted skull, secretly,
marking this lowest zone as that of human mortality. It is not by chance that
this same macabre motif appears as the personal device of De Dinteville in the
metal medallion affixed to his cap.
What can be concluded concerning the intent of Holbein's fascinating but
mysterious painting? One recent theory proposes that the predominance of
curious still-life details rightly belongs to the subject of *vanitas*, and the
arts (cf. Cornelius Agrippa, *De incertitudine et vanitate scienctiarium et
artium*...[*On Vanity of the Arts and Sciences], 1530). However, if read in an
Eyckian fashion, could not these same objects differentiate the major divisions
of earthly and heavenly worlds and those who govern them, reaching from the
lowest, that of death, through that of the arts and sciences that imitate the
ultimate harmonies of the spheres in heaven above? The broken lute string and
the enigmatic references to Lutheranism in the music book could thus be seen as
signs of the contemporary rifts or breaks in the harmony of church and state in
this world which our two French ambassadors will attempt to repair."
Now for another view--
"The water was freezing, his lodgings were damp and he was unable to shake off
an apparently interminable cold. 'I am, and have been, very weary and
wearisome,' he wrote to his family. 'I am the most melancholy, wary and
wearisome ambassador in the world.' The year 1533 was not a good one for Jean
de Dinteville. But with the help of Hans Holbein, he managed to put a brave
face on it.
Dinteville is the man on the left in Holbein's *The Ambassadors*, wearing the
salmon-couloured satin shirt and the black silk gown lined with lynx fur.
These were probably the same sumptuous clothes which he had brought to wear as
France's representative at the coronation of Anne Boleyn, Henry VIII's new
queen, in Westminster Abbey on 1 June that year. Did he, while he was there,
inspect the tomb by Torriginao? He certainly resented how much attendance at
this inauspicious ceremony cost him. 'I shall have to go to great expense for
this coronation,' he complained in another of his gloomy letters home.
Holbein, who was himself something of a diplomat, portrayed by Dinteville with
a countenance unclouded by such mundane concerns. Wary and self-possessed, the
French ambassador stares out from the canvas as if daring the viewer to guess
his thoughts. Those of his companion, Georges de Selve, Bishop of Lavaur, seem
even more cloaked. He is the living image of inscrutability. Impassive and
somber, even his posture makes him look secretive. He holds his long damask
robe about him almost defensively. He leans on a closed book, appropriately
enough.
*The Ambassadors* was commissioned by Jean de Dinteville to hang in his
family's chateau at Polisy. The painting is the pictorial equivalent of a
Renaissance nobleman's cabinet, the most precious piece of furniture in the
house, a repository of secrets and of special knowledge, reserved only to those
who understand the trickery of its construction. The composition of the
picture is literally reminiscent of a cabinet. The two men leaning on their
elbows are like human doors that have swung open to reveal a mass of intriguing
bric-a-brac stacked on the shelves between them. This has been the matter of
their contemplation; now it has been devised to test the ingenuity of those who
would decode it. Almost every detail is a tantalizing clue, hinting at hidden
significance; the closed green curtains that conceal; the scientific
instruments; the globes; the books; the lute with the broken string; the blur
of a skull, painted in anamorphic perspective, hovering over the elaborate
Cosmati-work tiled floor.
Thanks largely to the pioneering detective work of Mary Hervey, a tenacious
historian who established the identities of Holbein's sitters in 1900, the keys
have been furnished to many if not all of the picture's' secret compartments.
It is known that Jean de Dinteville traveled to London in 1533 and met Georges
de Selve on 23 May. He noted the meeting in a letter to his brother, also a
diplomat, and told him to mention it to no one. Dinteville's mission to London
took place at a time when the political map of Europe was being redrawn. The
ambassador would have known that these were difficult years for his country.
France had recently lost all of its northern Italian territories to Charles V,
whose disaffected troops had also sacked Rome in 1527, polarizing religious
differences. Meanwhile the uncontrollable popularity of new Lutheran ideas
could unbalance the political status quo yet further. France was
simultaneously threatened from within by Protestant dissenters and from without
by the quickfire spread of Protestant ideas to other powerful states. The
impending division of Europe, as much as the English weather, must have
contributed to de Dinteville's melancholy.
Georges de Selve was greatly exercised by the religious diversions of the time.
He had spent much of his career on religous-cum-diplomatic missions trying
vainly to stem the tide of Lutheran reform. In May 1533 he may have been in
London on similar business, meeting with clerics sympathetic to the reformers'
cause, like Thomas Cranmer, and seeking to dampen the smoldering embers of the
English Reformation. Dintevielle himself had probably been sent to impress
upon Henry VIII that the French would take a dim view of the plans to establish
a separate Church of England. But as soon as he got there, it was plain that
Henry and already decided to do just that in order to grant himself a divorce
from Catherine of Aragon and marry Anne Boleyn, thus alienating the papacy and
opening the way to the conversion of the English to Protestantism. So it was
that the two ambassadors found that they could merely witness events which they
themselves were powerless to influence. Alone in their room, they are like
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, men who can only watch from the wings as
extraordinary events take their course centre state.
The objects heaped on to the shelves on which both men rest their elbows
symbolize the disarray into which their world had fallen. The various
astronomical instruments on the upper shelf of the table in the picture, which
include a celestial globe as well as a number of different mechanism for
telling the time by the motions of the sun--a cylindrical shepherd's dial, two
quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and torquetum--are all misaligned for use in a
northerly latitude. This is unlikely to have been an oversight on the artist's
part, since one of his closest friends in London was the astronomer Nikolaus
Kratzer. The misaligned instruments are emblems of chaos, of the heavens out
of joint--a disharmony to which the lute with a broken string, conventional
symbol of discord, also alludes.
If the theme of the upper shelf is discord in the heavens, most of the objects
on the lower shelf refer to anarchy down below, in the sublunary sphere of
human affairs. The celestial globe has been replaced by a terrestrial globe on
which may be made out the words 'Baris' and 'Pritannia'--spelling had not been
standardized in the sixteenth century and these are thought to be Holbein's
renderings of his own Germanic pronunciation of 'Paris' and 'Brittany'. The
open book immediately below the globe (literally, its subtext) is an apparently
innocent work of practical mathematics, Peter Apaian's *New and Reliable
Instruction Book of Calculation for Merchants*. But it is open at a most
un-innocent page, which begins with the word *'Dividirt'*: 'Let division be
made'. To those with sharp eyes and the ability to think laterally--or to
those let in on the secret by the Dinteville clan in Polisy--this was a
reference to the religious schism that was tearing Europe apart in the 1530s.
Division was indeed being made.
The objects depicted may speak of the wreckage of the ambassadors' hopes and
aspirations but the two men are not downcast because, as the painting also
shows, there is another and yet larger scheme of things by which they are
content to live their lives and be judged. At the very bottom of Holbein's
picture, there is the most paradoxically latent statement of its cryptic
nature. The unclear object jutting up from the floor still seemed a complete
mystery as recently as 1867, when the then director of the National Gallery,
Ralph Wornum, described it as an inchoate shape like 'the bones of some fish'.
Thanks to subsequent research, the exact point at which the viewer must stand
in order to read this detail correctly is now known; at a right angle 120 mm
away from the wall surface, 1040 mm from the bottom of the picture and 790 mm
to the right of it, the blur resolves itself into a grinning skull, symbol of
inevitable death. At the very top of the painting the patient viewer will find
the last piece in the puzzle, the detail that fixes all the other details in
place. The crucifix in the top left-hand corner is the counter to the skull,
standing for the Resurrection, for God's fight of eternal life to all those of
true faith. It is from the smaller truth of a broken world, in the here and
now, to this larger truth, under the gaze of God, that the ambassadors turn to
stare us straight in the eye. They may have failed in their schemes and
projects but, piously sure of their own redemption, they stand on the verge of
eternity with admirable sangfroid. Holdbein's painting contains, laced within
it still surface, the wracks and tumults of a turbulent passage of history. It
is an image not just of two men alone with their thoughts, but of the shifting
consciousness of the times."
Simon Pugh
the jigsaw for the Brazil hypothesis.
In 1493 the Spanish Pope Alexander VI issued a series of bulls giving
Spain, among other privileges, exclusive rights to lands beyond a line
stretching from pole to pole and passing though a point 100 leagues west
of the Azores and the Cape Verde Islands.
In 1494 Spain and Portugal agreed the treaty of Tordesillas which moved
the line further west by 270 leagues. Portugal was given rights to all
to the east of the line, Spain all to the west of it, with the rider
that both were to avoid territory already held by Christian rulers. This
treaty allowed Portugal to claim Brazil.
Needless to say other Christian rulers were not pleased.
Now the position of the line in the treaty of Tordesillas is about 48
degrees west. Now 5 and a half hours west of Jerusalem comes out at 47.5
west which I think is near enough to the position of the treaty line to
be significant.
So now the polyhedral sundial shows the exact anniversary of Christ's
death at the longitude of the Tordesillas line at 20 degrees south in
Brazil.
I think the mad Brazil theory is rapidly achieving the status of a
plausible hypothesis.
--
Simon Pugh
D. Spencer Hines
And anyone who says it is NOT, is a horse's arse of the first order ----
and should get his server, as well as his brain, upgraded and/or
restored to service.
So There.
Martin Reboul
D. Spencer Hines...
> Your JPEG is just *fine*, Pogue Reboul.
>
> And anyone who says it is NOT, is a horse's arse of the first order ----
> and should get his server, as well as his brain, upgraded and/or
> restored to service.
>
> So There.
Thank you for your (mostly) kind words. Sometimes these things are
necessary..... Even on a medieval newsgroup, and despite the fact that I
love tradition and nostalgia, I reckon the 286 Mk1 and 10Mb C drive have had
their day?
Cheers
Martin
D. Spencer Hines
You're quite welcome. Keep posting JPEG's and GIF's, or whatever, when
you find it to be necessary and helpful.
I note with amusement that the little old schlockmeister of Washington
Square who always jumps all over people for posting "binaries" to SHM
and rapidly ascends into the rarified regions of High Dudgeon ---- has
been as quiet as a Greenwich Village atheistic mouse at a baptism on
this one.
Hilarious!
Deus Vult.
"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs."
Hunter Thompson
"When it comes to arrogance, power, and lack of accountability,
journalists are probably the only people on the planet who make lawyers
look good."
Steven Brill
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
----------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Martin Reboul" <martin...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:a3ugk0$v7i$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Simon Pugh
<martin...@virgin.net> writes
>
>Afropea wrote...
>> Here's some background on *The Ambassadors* which Martin requested.
>> These are two different interpretations. The first is from James Snyder's
>> "Northern Renaissance Art" 1985. The second is from Andrew Graham-
>> Dixon's "Renaissance" 1999.
>
>
>I prefer the 'spirit' of the second article, but both are full of detail and
>food for thought that I couldn't find on the WWW - thanks.
>
>I'm going to return to that skull again however. Holbein was a superb and
>talented artist, who paid great attention to detail and accuracy. A
>considerable amount of effort and 'cleverness' must have gone into that
>skull, which is in some ways the most unusual, peculiar and (I think)
>significant thing in the whole painting....?
>
>Even after perspective correction and fiddling, it doesn't look right - in
>fact, it's pretty pathetic, look at the jawbone. I don't know much about
>Holbein as a perfectionist, but I wouldn't be happy with it, and I'm not fit
>to paint Holbein's privvy wall in comparison!
I've seen two attempts at correcting the perspective of the skull, one
in North's book and one in a book by David Hockney on optical methods
used by painters.
North's skull looks somewhat infantile by which I mean the cranium is
too large for the jaw.
Hockey's has better proportions but the orbits are lopsided.
North spends quit a bit of time on the difficulty determining the view
point for the skull. He makes the point that it will only look right
from one point, simply squeezing up the image with software is not
enough as Hockney found.
>
>So against all the strict rules of netiquette, with callous disregard to the
>sensitivities and principles of fellow contributors, and in full knowledge
>of the savage criticism and outrage that will no doubt see me shunned from
>this NG forever, I have attached a tiny JPEG! Diabolical some may well say,
>but essential (phew - Galileo must have felt like this...)
>
>This is the skull as painted - I added the white line. From the little
>pointer between the teeth to the furthest extension of the back.... exactly
>27 degrees to the baseline of the picture. Try it. Notice that the skull
>casts a shadow on the pavement too (see full pic, not too clear from this).
>The skull is 'illuminated' as if the sun were at 27 degrees (highlight on
>back, minimal shadow) - another heavy hint?
You are on the money there Martin, the shadow cast by the skull is
different from the rest of the picture.
In general the illumination of the picture is consistent with 4p on the
day in question. The table is aligned north south from left to right so
we are looking east.
Incidentally it is the cylinder sundial to right of the globe that gives
us the time. In fact it shows about 3:45 but is slightly misaligned. If
you look carefully you can see the shadow curves to the left whereas it
should be vertical. If the gnomon had been set correctly it would have
read 4 pm.
>
>Two things puzzle me if this really has no importance.
>1) Why didn't Holbein just paint a nice menacing skull on the lower shelf,
>or below it? It seemed to be common practice at the time to represent
>mortality so, and therefore wouldn't have been out of place or even
>attracted much attention? Far easier, much less trouble and no awkward
>questions i.e. "What's that big splodge there Hans - did you spill something
>in the studio?" He hardly made any effort to 'hide' it?
Apart from the usual connotations North thinks it is to do with the
crucifixion, - Golgotha, the place of the skull.
>
>2) Why has this skull (if supposed to be strangely 'ethereal' or
>supernatural) got a shadow? The subject as a whole is illuminated from
>behind and to the right of the observer according to the shadows of de
>Dinterville's feet (most obviously) and everything else. But the 'skull
>shadow' is completely wrong. Where is supposed to be in space? It 'should'
>cast a shadow on the leg of the table perhaps, but does not. It is
>illuminated from a different place. That may be some hint of a
>'supernatural' nature, but why should such a thing cast a shadow at all?
>
>As it is, it is neither 'natural', 'real' or 'supernatural'.... and I don't
>think it is even 'really' a skull (good stuff this eh?), but a key or
>pointer of some kind 'hidden' as a skull?
>
>Surely I'm not the first person to mention such things? The game's afoot
>whatever...
> Cheers
> Martin
>
<snip>
Skull worked OK, shame on you <g>
--
Simon Pugh
Martin Reboul
D. Spencer Hines wrote..
> Indeed.
>
> You're quite welcome. Keep posting JPEG's and GIF's, or whatever, when
> you find it to be necessary and helpful.
>
> I note with amusement that the little old schlockmeister of Washington
> Square who always jumps all over people for posting "binaries" to SHM
> and rapidly ascends into the rarified regions of High Dudgeon ---- has
> been as quiet as a Greenwich Village atheistic mouse at a baptism on
> this one.
>
> Hilarious!
Well, it is. You don't seriously think I'd dare do such a thing without
permission from the boss do you?
Afropea
time to jot anything down, but I will on Monday.
Off the top of my head there was something about "ombre verras" if I spelled
that right. I don't know Latin. Is that something like "true shadow"? The
authors said something about the measuring equipment basically measuring
shadows but it brought to mind Martin's comments about the skull and the
shadow. There may be a relationship between all three. All sorts of
possibilities with that symbolically.
It was also mentioned that the floor decoration was identical with the spot in
Westminster Abbey where Henry said his vows to Anne B. (I believe this was what
it said, but I'll let you know for sure on Monday). Of course, as I mentioned
before this would be significant because Henry's split with the church over the
matter of the marriage.
Eve
Binx
Afropea <afr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<20020208183031...@mb-fu.aol.com>...
> I noticed a book on Holbein today by some Swiss art historians. I
didn't have
> time to jot anything down, but I will on Monday.
>
> Off the top of my head there was something about "ombre verras" if I
spelled
> that right. I don't know Latin.
Or French. ;-) "shadow glass" "glass shadow"??
<snip>.
>
> It was also mentioned that the floor decoration was identical with the
spot in
> Westminster Abbey where Henry said his vows to Anne B.
Is this floor decoration unique?
Cheers
Teresa
Afropea
>> Off the top of my head there was something about "ombre verras" if I
>spelled
>> that right. I don't know Latin.
>
>Or French. ;-) "shadow glass" "glass shadow"??
Hmmm. Either would language would make sense. Shadow or glass are interesting
symbolic concepts when dealing with images.
> <snip>.
>>
>> It was also mentioned that the floor decoration was identical with the
>spot in
>> Westminster Abbey where Henry said his vows to Anne B.
>
>Is this floor decoration unique?
I don't know, but I got the impression it was a style done by a particular
mosaic artist. And an early one that would actually be on topic. I think I
read it was from the 12th century so as for common, depends on where you go!
This was mentioned enough that several art historians thought it was worth
mentioning. Perhaps someone here would know more about it.
I just found a book on Holbein by Stephanie Buck that had a few interesting
ideas to add. However, I have to get the time to type it all out. I'll try to
do that and write and type notes on the Swiss book in the next couple of days!
Eve
Binx
Afropea <afr...@aol.com> wrote in article
<20020210131835...@mb-mh.aol.com>...
> m.percival says
Not my name!
> >> It was also mentioned that the floor decoration was identical with
the
> >spot in
> >> Westminster Abbey where Henry said his vows to Anne B.
I asked:
> >Is this floor decoration unique?
>
> I don't know, but I got the impression it was a style done by a
particular
> mosaic artist. And an early one that would actually be on topic. I
think I
> read it was from the 12th century so as for common, depends on where you
go!
> This was mentioned enough that several art historians thought it was
worth
> mentioning. Perhaps someone here would know more about it.
Actually it isn't. Have a look at
http://www.oneonta.edu/faculty/farberas/arth/ARTH214/SistineChapel.html.
> I just found a book on Holbein by Stephanie Buck that had a few
interesting
> ideas to add. However, I have to get the time to type it all out. I'll
try to
> do that and write and type notes on the Swiss book in the next couple of
days!
As someone who is able to actually look at the original, I would be very
interested. Thank you.
Cheers
Teresa
Simon Pugh
<afr...@aol.com> writes
The pavement in the picture closely resemble the Cosmati work pavement
in the Westminster Abbey sanctuary - the area in front of the high
altar..
Here is a bit on the Westminster pavement from North's book.
The pavement was constructed in 1268 some years after the abbot, Richard
de Ware, had been confirmed in his abbacy by the pope. The pope was then
at Anagni - a papal stronghold to the south of Rome.
...Anagni had the best Cosmati work in Italy - it has the best to this
day - and he [the abbot] was determined to embellish his London church
in a similarly magnificent way. The abbot's new floor has to be seen in
the context of Henry III's lavishly funded programme of rebuilding and
decorating Westminster Abbey.
The pavement originally had various inscriptions including (translated
from Latin):
In the year of Christ one thousand two hundred and twelve and sixty
minus four.
King Henry III, the Church of Rome, Odoricus and the Abbot laid down
these porphyry stones.
--
Simon Pugh
Simon Pugh
Here is an update on the state of play on the sundial challenge with
additional information from North's book.
How the sundial is supposed to work, dealing only with the visible
faces.
The sundial consists of an eight sided polyhedral block. Using arbitrary
units, the sizes of the three different edges are: 1.9 units for the
sides of the sides of the small square, 4 units for the sides of the
larger central square, and 3.3 units for the connecting edges. The slope
of the side faces is 20 degrees relative to the axis.
The front face has a perpendicular rod gnomon with regularly spaced hour
lines. This face can only work at a latitude of 20 degrees N or S
depending on the orientation. (unless supported on a stand)
The upper face is calibrated for use with a 51.5 degree gnomon and is
intended for use in the horizontal position and facing north. The face
also has a compass which confirms that it is for use in the horizontal
position.
The left face is also calibrated for use with a 51.5 degree gnomon and
is intended for use in a side position with the block in the same
orientation as for the upper dial. They are intended to read the same
time.
Both the upper and left faces have been fitted with 20 degree gnomons
which do not match their dial calibration. The upper face is also
sloping down at 40 degrees so that the instrument cannot possibly work
as shown in the painting. Both the upper and left faces could work at 20
degrees N or S, as for the front face, but only with the right
calibration.
The block has been placed in such a way that the noon line of the left
face appears at 27 degrees to the horizontal and aligns precisely with
the head of Christ on the crucifix.
The shadows on two faces of the instrument are appropriate for the
position of the sun and the alignment of the block.
The front face shows 10:30 and the left face, 9:30 which are both
correct. The upper face should show 11:15 but there is a smudge, either
deliberate or not which alters the shadow to show 10:30.
Why the upper and side faces have been fitted with the wrong gnomons is
the mystery.
Before going into my hypothesis I would like to think briefly about why
Holbein might changed the gnomons.
I think his prime concern was to get his 27 degree alignment with
Christ. This means he is very constrained in how he places the dial
unless the composition of the picture is totally altered. I can't think
of an easy way to get the sundial to read anything sensible with its
51.5 degree gnomons fitted. Perhaps fitting the wrong gnomons was a
solution to this dilemma and my hypothesis provides a possible
explanation.
If the shadows with 20 degree gnomons are not intended to have any
meaning, why prefer 20 degree garbage to 51.5 degree garbage?
My Brazil hypothesis:
Let us suppose that the sundial is supposed to read correctly somewhere
in the world and that the time shown is in some way related to the
anniversary of Christ's death.
Considering only the front face which is correctly calibrated, the
sundial as set up with the front sloping down, could only work correctly
at 20 degrees south.
Now assume that the time 10:30 is related to the of Christ's death
which in this picture is taken to be 4pm. The time difference between
10:30am and 4pm is 5 1/2 hours. in terms of longitude this represents
82.5 degrees. If we go 82.5 degrees west of Jerusalem at 20 degrees
south, we find our self at 47.5 degrees west which is almost exactly on
the Tordesillas line in Brazil.
The treaty of Tordesillas was politically sensitive issue at the time
and the Tordesillas line is shown on the terrestrial globe in the
picture.
This works fine for the front face but what of the other faces? The
upper face does read 10:30 but this may be a smudge and the left face
reads 9:30.
If the upper and left face had the right calibration and there was no
smudge on the upper face, then both faces would read 10:30.
So if the dials had the appropriate calibration for their gnomons, the
shadows would fall not only as they should at 4pm in London, but would
also all read 10:30 as if the dial was correctly set up in Brazil at
that time.
So what of the difficulties?
The time in the picture is 4pm in London but I have used 4pm in
Jerusalem. I don't think this too serious a problem as Christ died in
Jerusalem.
The dial calibration is a more serious issue.
The original dial was calibrated for 51.5 degree gnomons, altering them
would spoil the instrument but it should have been possible to make a
temporary card with the right calibration. I am assuming the image was
made with a camera obsucra or some such device. Working out the
calibration in perspective on the picture its self would have been much
more tricky. So altering the dial calibration is possible but tricky.
The other simpler possibility would be to paint the shadow to show the
right time. There is some evidence of this on the upper face where the
time seems to have been altered to 10:30, but this wasn't done on the
left face, why?
So we are left with the problem, why didn't Holbein change the dial
calibration for 20 degree gnomons? He may have changed the upper face to
read 10:30 but he left the left dial reading 9:30 so if Holbein started
to alter the time, he didn't finish. This is the major difficulty with
my theory.
In all the years people have studied the Ambassadors, no one has come up
with a convincing explanation for the contradictions in the sundial. If
some important connection between one of the ambassadors and Brazil
could be found of even some evidence of discussions between England and
France on the Tordesillas/Brazil issue, would this outweigh the
difficulties. I don't know but I think it is worth looking.
--
Simon Pugh
D. Spencer Hines
Have you considered shifting your focus to the Kennedy Assassination and
the alleged shadowy figures on the grassy knoll?
How about the Castro connection?
Hilarious!
Deus Vult.
"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs."
Hunter Thompson
"When it comes to arrogance, power, and lack of accountability,
journalists are probably the only people on the planet who make lawyers
look good."
Steven Brill
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
----------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Simon Pugh" <Si...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:61DPJ2Jh...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk...
| Piggybacking:
| Here is an update on the state of play on the sundial challenge with
| additional information from North's book.
<snip>
Afropea
>Afropea <afr...@aol.com> wrote in article
><20020210131835...@mb-mh.aol.com>...
>> m.percival says
>
>Not my name!
My apologies. I just coppied your screen name.
>> >> It was also mentioned that the floor decoration was identical with
>the
>> >spot in
>> >> Westminster Abbey where Henry said his vows to Anne B.
>
>
>I asked:
>
>> >Is this floor decoration unique?
>>
>> I don't know, but I got the impression it was a style done by a
>particular
>> mosaic artist. And an early one that would actually be on topic. I
>think I
>> read it was from the 12th century so as for common, depends on where you
>go!
>> This was mentioned enough that several art historians thought it was
>worth
>> mentioning. Perhaps someone here would know more about it.
>
>Actually it isn't. Have a look at
>http://www.oneonta.edu/faculty/farberas/arth/ARTH214/SistineChapel.html.
>
My! Interesting! The question is how common would it be in England? It might
be, but perhaps it might not be. I just don't know, but would be interested if
anyone else did.
>> I just found a book on Holbein by Stephanie Buck that had a few
>interesting
>> ideas to add. However, I have to get the time to type it all out. I'll
>try to
>> do that and write and type notes on the Swiss book in the next couple
>of
>days!
>
>As someone who is able to actually look at the original, I would be very
>interested. Thank you.
>
>Cheers
>Teresa
I might be too busy tomorrow, but will try to do so on Tuesday.
Martin Reboul
Simon Pugh wrote...
The skull! You forgot the skull.... 27 degrees. It is a pointer 'concealed'
as a skull, and the key to it all I'm quite sure - there could hardly be a
heavier hint.
It's no good - I'm going up to town tomorrow to have a look. There's
something else I have to see ..... did you see the article in Saturday's
Telegraph?
Simon Pugh
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> writes
Oh dear, Spencer. Sometimes I wonder if you understand a word I say. You
didn't seem to appreciate that I was starting to discuss the problems
with my theory as no one else has answered the challenge.
Another problem is that it may be too modern in approach. Kratzer would
certainly have had the knowledge to work it out but would anyone else
have appreciated it.
I think the relationship between longitude and time was fairly new. Does
any one know anything about this?
But since you don't like obscure puzzles how about a more prosaic
possibility?
In my last post I said why prefer 20 degree gnomon garbage to 51.5
degree garbage.
With the exception of the rod gnomon in line with the axis all the other
gnomons are 20 degrees. Their styles all line up with each other and the
axis of the sun dial.
They naturally lead the eye harmoniously towards the upper left of the
picture. Not exactly at the crucifix but in that general direction.
Gnomons of 51.5 degrees are almost 3 1/2 times the height of the 20
degree gnomons. The thing would look like a stegosaurus, well not really
but it would spoil the effect.
So the 20 degree gnomons are there for artistic reasons and are not
supposed to tell the time.
Is that better?
--
Simon Pugh
Simon Pugh
death on Good Friday 11 April 1533. In the bible, the ninth hour of the
day or 3 pm is given as the time of death but in the painting, 4 pm is
used, so I thought I would say a bit about that choice.
The most obvious information pointing to 4pm comes from the pillar
sundial next to the celestial globe.
A pillar dial was common place instrument that anyone might own. It is
often referred to in texts as a "cylinder" or "chilyndre". The cylinder
must be perfectly vertical in order to work, and may be placed either on
a horizontal surface or hung from a string. It has a horizontal gnomon
at the top that must me pointed exactly at the sun. The shadow is cast
vertically below the gnomon and the time is read from spiral calibration
lines.
Before use the date must be set by rotating the gnomon to the correct
position with the knob at the top. At the base of the dial the signs of
the zodiac and months are shown. The fine vertical line that is just
visible on goof images of the picture, is the division between Aries and
Taurus.
The dial is set to 11 April, a date in August is also possible but that
does not fit with the ambassadors visit to London.
Time shown on the dial is approximately 3:45 pm, but the shadow curves
slightly to the left, showing that the gnomon is not perfectly aligned.
If it was, the time would read 4pm.
There is other confirmatory evidence for 4pm but it is much more
complicated to explain.
So what is so special about 4pm?
Firstly the sun's altitude is 27 degrees and this is significant because
27 = 3x3x3 or the trinity cubed.
But the hour is special in other ways, Libra is rising and this
traditionally the case at the hour of Christ's death (and birth).
Secondly there are some significant planetary alignments. Saturn, the
malevolent planet is close to its highest point whereas Jupiter the
planet of hope is at its lowest, a doleful hour.
There is another association of Libra with the crucifixion, scales are
sometimes show hanging from the cross with Christ's passion balanced
against the sins of the world.
There is plenty more but I think that's enough :)
--
Simon Pugh
Simon Pugh
<martin...@virgin.net> writes
>
<snip>
>> If the shadows with 20 degree gnomons are not intended to have any
>> meaning, why prefer 20 degree garbage to 51.5 degree garbage?
>
>The skull! You forgot the skull.... 27 degrees. It is a pointer 'concealed'
>as a skull, and the key to it all I'm quite sure - there could hardly be a
>heavier hint.
>It's no good - I'm going up to town tomorrow to have a look. There's
>something else I have to see ..... did you see the article in Saturday's
>Telegraph?
>
Come on Martin, spill the beans, what are you thinking of?
The sundial provides the link between the crucifix and the skull vial
its 27 degree noon line on the side face. This links the crucifix with
the viewpoint of the skull. But were you thinking of something else?
I had a totally nutty idea that if Christ was the sun, and there was a
mirror at the viewpoint, it would cast the shadow you see below the
skull, but I don't take it seriously.
--
Simon Pugh
D. Spencer Hines
mirror at the viewpoint, it would cast the shadow you see below the
skull, but I don't take it seriously."
Simon Pugh
------------------------
Hilarious!
And if pigs had wings, perhaps some of them could fly.
You have too much time on your hands, Simon.
Get back to work, before your boss catches you at this nonsense. <g>
Oliver Stone is much better at it anyway.
Simon Pugh
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> writes
>"I had a totally nutty idea that if Christ was the sun, and there was a
>mirror at the viewpoint, it would cast the shadow you see below the
>skull, but I don't take it seriously."
>
>Simon Pugh
>------------------------
>
>Hilarious!
>
>And if pigs had wings, perhaps some of them could fly.
>
>You have too much time on your hands, Simon.
>
>Get back to work, before your boss catches you at this nonsense. <g>
Come on Spencer where's your sense of fun!
Oh, and time on my hands? Irony?
>
>Oliver Stone is much better at it anyway.
>
>Deus Vult.
>
>"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
>hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs."
>
>Hunter Thompson
>
>"When it comes to arrogance, power, and lack of accountability,
>journalists are probably the only people on the planet who make lawyers
>look good."
>
>Steven Brill
>
>All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
>
>All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
>author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
>attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
>given, in writing.
>----------
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
>Vires et Honor
>
>
--
Simon Pugh
Martin Reboul
Simon Pugh wrote in message...
> In article <a491kl$bhj$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, Martin Reboul
> <martin...@virgin.net> writes
> >
>
> <snip>
> >> If the shadows with 20 degree gnomons are not intended to have any
> >> meaning, why prefer 20 degree garbage to 51.5 degree garbage?
> >
> >The skull! You forgot the skull.... 27 degrees. It is a pointer
'concealed'
> >as a skull, and the key to it all I'm quite sure - there could hardly be
a
> >heavier hint.
> >It's no good - I'm going up to town tomorrow to have a look. There's
> >something else I have to see ..... did you see the article in Saturday's
> >Telegraph?
> >
> Come on Martin, spill the beans, what are you thinking of?
It's all in the one I sent on 2/7/02 c/w naughty jpg attachment.
> The sundial provides the link between the crucifix and the skull vial
> its 27 degree noon line on the side face. This links the crucifix with
> the viewpoint of the skull. But were you thinking of something else?
I've been doing some printing and ruler work.... that book on the RHS lower
shelf is open at exactly 27, and there are sveral other 27's between
significant points.
I'll tell you the rest privately to make it all look more mysterious,
intriguing and exciting.... and annoy Spencer.
> I had a totally nutty idea that if Christ was the sun, and there was a
> mirror at the viewpoint, it would cast the shadow you see below the
> skull, but I don't take it seriously.
As I said before, the skull is very odd indeed, and I'm sure it holds the
key. Also, I think Prof North is quite right about the time and date stuff,
but there's also another 'stage' he hasn't noticed, which is why I have to
see the 'real thing'. Clue, it is the one very carefully painted, and
extremely carefully and significantly positioned object in the picture which
has hardly been mentioned! It contains its own 27 clues too. Are there any
X-rays of this pic BTW - those I'd *really* like to see?
Cheers
Martin
Afropea
Ambassadors".
According to Batschamann and Grenier, Dinteville had arrived in London to
reassure Henry VIII of France's good intentions following Francois I's decision
to marry Francois' second son to the Pope's niece.
In answer to Teresa's question, authors note that the pavement depicted is
unique to England--made by Odorius in 1268, a Roman artist, for Westminster
Abbey. Geometric structure gives quite order to the composition.
Dinteville wears order of St. Michel--cleric appears more sober and they are
counterpoised 'en paragon' like a pair of Plutarch's "Parallel Lives"--an
author admired by DeSelve and translated by him into French.
Two shelves represent the sciences forming the humanists' quadrivium--music
(lutes, flutes, a hymn book on the bottom shelf to the right), arithmetic via
Peter Apian's treatise published in 1527, geometry and astronomy. On the upper
shelf astronomy is given the place of honor, with celestial globe on a splendid
carpet and a cylindrical sundial designed to give the time of year and time of
day--April 11, 1533 at 9:30 or 10:30, behind a quadrant that defines the
altitude of objects by measuring the shadow they cast *umbra versa*; to the
right is a polyhedral sundial, and behind a torquetum, used to determine
celestial bodies. On the lower shelf a polyhedral sundial describes along with
the great capitals of the world, a sentimental *mappa mundi* for Dinteville
showing Polisy as a capital.
Science and the arts, objects of luxury and glory, are measured against the
grandeur of death. The exactness of time down to the hour of the day recalls
the ideal *punctum* of the representation. It's also derisory temporality,
tightly restricting the validity of the whole presentation.
Dinteville's personal motto was *mento mori* the caution against the *vanitas*
of life.
"To reinforce that powerful message Holbein placed an apparently anamorphous
shape before the two men; if the picture is viewed at close range from below on
the left or from above on the right, this shape transforms--suddenly--into a
human skull, while at the same time the rest of the image becomes
illegible...Thus the image was oriented with two perspective systems, one
organizing the living figures and the world of phenomena around them, the other
articulating the skull, the metaphor of death. The two systems coexist in one
painting but are at the same time mutually exclusive: to comprehend fully one
of them the viewer had to lose sight of the other. The idea is reinforced by
the fact that some of the instruments depicted here were made to measure
shadows, that is, forms without consistency."
Holbein also used instruments in Kratzer's portrait from a few years earlier.
Kratzer was Henry VIII's astronomer and for a woodcut in Sebastian Munster's
"Canones".
"The portrait of Kratzer may be read as a celebration of science, but in 'The
Ambassadors' the space of the *theatrum mundi*, in the light of that same
science, is denounced as a pale illusion soon destined to be ravaged by death.
The pavement mentioned earlier recalls where Anne Boleyn was coronated--the
event leading to the schism with Rome. These two men were conscious of the
need for reformation and were tolerant towards Protestantism. DeSelve was a
great admirer of St. Paul, frequently quoting him in his writings, and his
vision of God was that of a hidden Divinity, virtually unattainable for those
who sought him through reason: God was for him, a *Deus absconditues* who makes
his presence felt solely in the Christian's heart. This may be suggested by
the half hidden crucifix in the darkened corner that never the lest hovers over
the rest of the scene.
From "Hans Holbein" by Oskar Batschmann and Pascal Grenier
*****************************************************************
Born from an influential and art loving family, Jean de Dinteville had been
sent to England by French King Francis I to gather more information about the
explosive developments in connection with the divorce of the English King.
Present both at Anne Boleyn's coronation and representing Francis I as
godfather to Elizabeth who was born on September 7, 1533, Dinteville's 6 month
stint in England was extended. He was not happy about it. He did express in a
letter delight upon learning that Bishop George deSelve had arrived in London
on a secret mission. DeSelve had left by June 4th so his image in the painting
must be based on portrait drawings. When Dinteville returned home after
Elizabeth's baptism, he took the picture of his chateau in Polisy.
A double portrait is unusual for Holbein and the Northern European portrait
tradition. The figures are shown life-size. Holbein had no established
compositional scheme to draw on. What do you do with the middle of the picture
so that neither figure was subordinate to the other? Each ended up getting
half the picture with Dinteville slightly more prominent. The figures were
linked through the etagere.
Neither man was known to be personally interested in scientific equipment--most
likely these pieces were borrowed from Nikolaus Kratzer who had his portrait
done in 1528 where the pieces also appear. It was assumed that the clocks gave
a precise time but it was recently found that they were highly imprecise. This
gives the notion of *tempus fugit* time running out or "out of joint".
On the left page of the Lutheran hymnal there is an allusion to division in the
front is a notation of the hymn "Veni Creator Spritus" (Come, Holy Ghost) which
is also sung in the Catholic Church, though this is in Latin, not German. The
Holy Ghost is the force that can effect the unity of Christendom as advocated
by deSelve in 1529. Thus the hymnal refers to the current tensions inside the
church, and expresses the hopes that they can be overcome.
The articles on the etagere are reproduced realistically and oriented to the
real world. Holbein shows that this reality is not lasting. The skull, the
dramatic focal point contrasts the reality of the rest of the picture. Death
manifests itself in an incalculable fashion. That Dinteville was conscious of
his own mortality is shown by the brooch in his hat with a small skull.
Yet even if the world is overshadowed by death, for the Christian there is hope
of an afterlife, since the top left corner the stately green damask curtain is
slightly drawn to reveal a silver crucifix.
The use of the skull in this manner is compositional revolutionary even through
amamorphoses are popular images at this time. If you look at the skull at the
right angle everything that normally looks real becomes distorted. IOW this is
a visual manifestation of the differences between the material world and the
world of the spirit.
From Stephanie Beck's--"Hans Holbein" 1999
Eve
Simon Pugh
<afr...@aol.com> writes
>Here are some more notes on things that have been written about Holbein's "The
>Ambassadors".
Thank you for posting that Eve. It is interesting to see how totally
different these approaches are from North's.
Everyone seems to more or less agree about the analysis of the lower
shelf, although I haven't seen an explanation for the case of 6 flutes
with two missing on the right.
Turing to things going out of focus when you look at the skull, North
thinks that the eye you use is important
From Thomas a Kempis - It is written and said , that the soul of Christ
had two eyes, the right belonging to the inner man and fixed upon
eternity and the Godhead, and the left eye belonging to the outer man,
and standing with him "in perfect suffering, in all tribulation,
affliction and travail".
The writer goes on - these two eyes of the soul of man cannot both
perform their work at once; but if the soul shall see with the right eye
into eternity, then the left eye must close its self and refrain from
working, and be as though it were dead.
So North thinks we should view the skull with the left eye and the
crucifix with the right.
I have a few days off and I went to The National Gallery and had another
look at the picture. To resolve the skull you have to stand to the right
of the picture. If you use your left eye, the right eye must be right up
against the wall. I couldn't see anything with my right eye. If you use
your right eye to view the skull the crucifix is just about visible but
all the points that the line is supposed to go through are really hard
to see. It is so much easier with a photograph and a ruler <g>.
On the scientific instruments North thinks each one has been carefully
placed and aligned in order to show, each in it's own way, an aspect of
the anniversary of Christ's death.
North's explanations of the instruments are difficult and complicated
and I am finding it hard to think of a way of dealing with them without
illustrations.
--
Simon Pugh
D. Spencer Hines
Understandable.
So, use illustrations ---- Simon.
Deus Vult.
"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs."
Hunter Thompson
"When it comes to arrogance, power, and lack of accountability,
journalists are probably the only people on the planet who make lawyers
look good."
Steven Brill
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
----------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Simon Pugh" <Si...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:QEiVVOGq...@mrzsp.demon.co.uk...
Martin Reboul
D. Spencer Hines wrote...
> Understandable.
>
> So, use illustrations ---- Simon.
Hmmmm. A worthy encouragement to help us get to the bottom of this
difficult, complex and fascinating subject?
Or a pathetic attempt to annoy Paul by proxy perhaps?
You really are a pratt Spencer.....
Simon Pugh
scientific instruments, first the globe.
The celestial globe is superbly painted. It bears a remarkable
resemblance to a globe by Johannes Schoner(1533) which belongs to the
Royal Astronomical Society and is currently in the Science Museum in
London. This globe is 26.5 cm in diameter and the one in the painting is
approximately full size.
A National Gallery guide to the Ambassadors includes a picture of the
two globes side by side with the Schoner globe set up as in the
painting. They certainly seem rather similar although it is hard to make
much out on the Schoner globe.
Holbein's globe is mounted in a brass armillary stand with rams head
supports for the horizon ring. Although animals are commonly used for
supports, the choice of rams could be significant as will be seen later.
The meridian ring (vertical) has graduations on it that according to
North read either 48 (the latitude of Polisy) or 42 (the latitude of
Rome) - the scale runs in two directions. This has led to claims that
the globe is not set up for London, however North asserts that angle of
the pole is set for London.
At the top of the globe is another ring giving the hour angle. The
numbering on this ring is very hard to read but with a magnifying glass
I think I can just make out that the pointer is at about 2:45 (the
plates in North's book are very high quality). The pointer on the
Schoner globe is set differently, about 90 degrees anticlockwise from
that in the painting, which .would be about 9 o'clock. North does not
actually give the setting of the dial and ascribes no particular
significance to it.
The view of the sky in the globe corresponds to approximately nine pm in
London on Good Friday 1533. North believes it is set to the time when it
first gets properly dark and relates this to the time of Christ's body
being placed in the tomb, however he doesn't give an exact time. In fact
my version of Starry Night doesn't fully light up the Milky Way until
9:12pm. (Sunset was 7:04pm <g>)
Before going into the stars that are visible, it is worth saying that
the globe represents a God's eye view of the sky so everything is back
to front. Some globes also had stars painted on the inside and could be
taken apart to aid star recognition.
The most prominent constellation is Cygnus however this is not labelled.
It lies in the centre of the triangle above de Dinteville's left sleeve.
Cygnus was seen as containing a cross and was also know as the Northern
Cross. The Lyre can be seen to the left of Cygnus although it is
labelled Vultur Caedens sometimes known as the falling vulture or eagle.
To the right is part of Cepheus and below part of Pegasus.
There are in fact 10 visible constellations on the globe all partly
hidden; In addition to the above four, we have (I think): Perseus,
Cassiopeia, Delphinus, Andomeda, Draco and Hercules. Bottom left the
word Vultur Vo... appears which may be the edge of Aquila. The word
Galcia appears next to Cygnus which I take to be the Milky Way.
Two other objects are not shown but would have been visible below the
horizon, the sun and moon. The sun is about 15 degrees below the horizon
in the constellation of Aries (the Ram supports for the horizon ring?)).
It would have been visible right at the edge of the globe near the top
of the pillar dial. The moon would have been in a similar position on
the opposite side of the globe. The viewpoint for the globe appears to
have been carefully chosen to make this so.
Four points on the globe align with the 27 degree line from Christ
through de Dinteville's left eye. Vega in the Lyre, Deneb in Cygnus, the
intersection of the meridian with the horizon (a cross) and finally the
invisible sun.
The sun and moon may have another significance. The image of Christ on
the cross is sometimes shown with the sun and moon above the beam of the
cross. The presence of the Northern Cross (Cygnus) with the sun and moon
on either side may be significant.
Other possibilities are: the Falling Eagle ( Lyra) might be a reference
to the Imperial Eagle and Rome?, the Dolphin might be a reference to the
Dauphin? Incidentally Vega is a corruption of the Arabic word for
falling presumably because it appears to fall vertically from the sky in
some circumstances.
During his discussion on the Lyre and Rome, North touches on another
alignment. A line can be drawn from the head of Christ, through the St
Michael medallion, through Rome at the centre of the terrestrial globe,
along the handle, through the peg belonging to the broken string of the
lute and on to the ear region of the skull. This leads naturally to
discussion of things on the lower shelf such as the arithmetic book open
at a page on division and the Lutheran hymn book.
So I think that's enough on the celestial globe. It all seems to work
out pretty well on Starry Night although, of course, everything is back
to front.
--
Simon Pugh
Simon Pugh
descriptions of how North reached all his conclusions so I will confine
myself to a brief description of the instruments and the conclusions.
First the wooden instrument to the left of the polyhedral dial and with
a semicircular scale and a pivoting arm. North calls this the compound
solar instrument. It is in fact a type of sundial and is not completely
assembled. Lying in front of it is a wooden disc with a vertical metal
pin. This disc has a hole in the middle and the pivoting arm should pass
though it forming the dial if the sundial. The arm would then be pivoted
to face the pole.
The 27 degree line to the crucifix passes through the zero point of the
semicircular scale. Otherwise the purpose of this instrument relates to
the white quadrant behind it.
This quadrant is intended for telling the time. It has a scale marked in
degrees around the circumference and hour line running in various
directions inside that. At the bottom out of sight would be sighting
vanes and the instrument is used with the apex uppermost with a plumb
line hanging from it. The sighting vanes are aligned with the sun and
then the angle read with the plumb line. There would be a small movable
bead on the plumb line and before you can tell the time you must set the
position of the bead to the date using a scale that is out of view. When
you set the altitude of the sun, the position of the bead gives the
position on the scale to read the time.
This quadrant is not positioned for use and yet North believes it is
telling the time. The first clue is that the hour lines have numbers
indicating the hour at their inner end (nearest the apex). The 4 o'clock
line is not labelled whereas all the others are.
The upper edge of the pivot arm of the compound solar instrument crosses
the scale of the quadrant at exactly 27 degrees. There is no plumb line
put the line that it would take crosses the 4 o'clock line at exactly
the point where the vertical support for the pivot arm crosses the same
line. The metal pin also seems to point out the line to read.
So this pair of instruments together give us the 27 degree angle and the
time 4 o'clock.
The final instrument is the torquetum behind the polyhedral sundial.
This is a complicated instrument that can be used both to observe and
convert between different co-ordinate systems.
The base is on a horizontal board, the next level is tilted to be
parallel with the equatorial plane so its axis in parallel to the axis
of rotation of the earth. The next level is tilted into the plane of the
ecliptic or the path that the sun takes through the sky. The lower
sights between the four vertical pillars can be used to make
observations along the ecliptic if set up correctly.
Above that is another set of sights that tilt two discs. One is circular
and is used to read the angles above or below the ecliptic and the other
is D shaped and pivots. This can be used to measure altitude above the
horizon with a plumb line.
Although the torquetum is not aligned for use, North believes it is set
up for use at the latitude of London and at the correct date, that is to
say it is set up with the appropriate sign of the zodiac.
The angle of the upper sight on the circular disc cannot be read because
the scale is not visible. However a reading of 17.5 degrees can be
obtained from below the sight. By interpolation, this would read 27
degrees if the scale was visible in the right place.
There is one oddity, in the triangular space just next to the upper
right corner of the sundial, the number 2 and the sign for Sagittarius
can be seen. The appropriate sign for this position should be Taurus and
North believes the sign for Sagittarius has been deliberately
substituted as a reference to the moon which happens to be in
Sagittarius. The moon also figures on the celestial globe.
That was a very rudimentary description of North's conclusions, if
anyone is really interested the will need to read the book, but be
warned, things may not be much clearer <g>.
So in summary all the scientific instruments on the upper shelf in
various ways allude to the 1500th anniversary of Christ's death at "4
pm" on 11 April 1533.
--
Simon Pugh
Martin Reboul
Simon Pugh wrote ...
Someone just gave me an interesting analysis, which claims that
Dinterville's personal symbol was a skull....
http://www.thomastallis.greenwich.sch.uk/dept/hoa/ambassadors
Maybe worth a look?
Cheers
Martin
Simon Pugh
<martin...@virgin.net> writes
<snip>
>
>Someone just gave me an interesting analysis, which claims that
>Dinterville's personal symbol was a skull....
>
>http://www.thomastallis.greenwich.sch.uk/dept/hoa/ambassadors
>
>Maybe worth a look?
> Cheers
> Martin
I checked out the site, you left the HTML off the URL <g>.
It is a school project, quite well done but using conventional sources.
The question of the personal symbol has been gone into carefully and
there is absolutely no evidence that de Dinteville used a skull as a
personal symbol. According to the National Gallery guide, small badges
like this were popular at the time.
North relates the skull to the half millennium but he also has another
purpose for it. It forms one of the points of a hexagram centred on the
point of swing of the plumb line on the compound solar instrument in the
centre of the table. Another point on the hexagram is the St Michael's
medallion.
His justification for looking for a hexagram is that there is one hidden
on the floor. It is under the table mostly hidden by the skull. The best
place to look is to the left of the skull near the lute case. A hexagram
is also suggested by the horoscope for 4pm 11 April 1533, but I won't go
there.
Cheers
--
Simon Pugh