Medieval dairy farmers
John Yeadon
Ask a dairy farmer today, what is the first thing that is done to milk
when removed from the cow and s/he will tell you that it is cooled or
refrigerated.
Did any medieval dairy farmers cool their milk, and if so how did they
do it?
J.
Renia
My mother-in-law's mother, and more recently, her sister, did the
opposite, which was to boil the milk, let it cool and separate off the
fat, which was made into clotted cream, butter or cheese. The milk was
then fat-free and the milk, cream, butter or cheese would be left in the
dairy, a cold stone-walled room. This is still done today.
a425couple
Related question,
How much of the nutritional needs of medieval people
came from dairy?
(But, I tend to think it varied a lot.
For Vikings a considerable amount, for southerners much less.)
David Friedman
"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
It's worth remembering that on fast days dairy products were not
permitted, and there were a lot of fast days.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_
Matt Tompkins
> How much of the nutritional needs of medieval people
> came from dairy?
> (But, I tend to think it varied a lot.
> For Vikings a considerable amount, for southerners much less.)
A difficult question to answer, since (as you supposed) it varied a
lot. For England alone the answer would vary according to class
(dairy products had low status - the aristocracy avoided them, the
poor had no choice but to depend on them), region (some areas
emphasised pastoral farming, others arable), season, and period (the
balance between arable farming and pastoralism fluctuated, especially
before and after the Black Death - though ironically the expansion of
pastoralism after the plague was parallelled by rising peasant
prosperity, causing them to ape their betters by rejecting dairy
products).
Chris Dyer's 'Everyday Life in Medieval England' (London, 1994) has a
chapter, originally a 1988 Agricultural History Review article, which
discusses medieval peasants' diet and at pp. 82-3 analyses harvest
labourers' food allowances on a manor in Norfolk between 1256 and 1424
- the dairy element in these varied between 28% and 9% in terms of
value and 13% and 7% in terms of calories (though the calory data
include eggs with the dairy produce, for some reason).
He revisited the subject, and looked also at aristocratic diet, in
'Standards of Living in the later Middles Ages: Social Change in
England c.1200-1520' (Cambridge, 1989). At p. 56 he analyses several
14th- and 15th-century aristocratic households' diets - dairy produce
amounted to only 1-3% by cost.
Matt Tompkins
a425couple
Wow! Neat. Thanks for some real clear and specific answers!
So, the aristocrates did not go for specialty cheeses.
"Matt Tompkins" <ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote in...
W. Baker
: discusses medieval peasants' diet and at pp. 82-3 analyses harvest
: labourers' food allowances on a manor in Norfolk between 1256 and 1424
: - the dairy element in these varied between 28% and 9% in terms of
: value and 13% and 7% in terms of calories (though the calory data
: include eggs with the dairy produce, for some reason).
: Matt Tompkins
I am no expert, but I wonder if this pairing of dairy and eggs had to do
with the fact that both are produced by animals, not part of animals that
have to die for the food to available.
Wendy Baker
Paul J Gans
There was generally no ice, so if it was cooled at all it was
by running water.
But I've never read that it was cooled. What was not drunk
right away was probably turned to cheese.
--
--- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>In article <ifvfg...@news4.newsguy.com>,
> "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "John Yeadon" <bottoml...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote...
>> > Ask a dairy farmer today, what is the first thing that is done to milk
>> > when removed from the cow and s/he will tell you that it is cooled or
>> > refrigerated.
>> > Did any medieval dairy farmers cool their milk, and if so how did they
>> > do it? J.
>>
>> Related question,
>> How much of the nutritional needs of medieval people
>> came from dairy?
>> (But, I tend to think it varied a lot.
>> For Vikings a considerable amount, for southerners much less.)
>It's worth remembering that on fast days dairy products were not
>permitted, and there were a lot of fast days.
Not milking a milk cow is painful to the cow at least.
Weland
> (top posting - nothing really to add)
> Wow! Neat. Thanks for some real clear and specific answers! So, the
> aristocrates did not go for specialty cheeses.
Well, that depends on time, region....Charlemagne is rather famous (if
this is historical anyway) for having a fondness for a cheese, probably
Brie or Roquefort or something similar. That's pretty
aristocratic....on the other hand, something like cheese soup (some of
which are delicious....Brie, apple, garlic and celery for example) would
probably be considered peasant food in much the same way that lobster
was once considered poor people chow. Friedman can probably confirm or
elucidate further.
Renia
> In article<ifvfg...@news4.newsguy.com>,
> "a425couple"<a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "John Yeadon"<bottoml...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote...
>>> Ask a dairy farmer today, what is the first thing that is done to milk
>>> when removed from the cow and s/he will tell you that it is cooled or
>>> refrigerated.
>>> Did any medieval dairy farmers cool their milk, and if so how did they
>>> do it? J.
>>
>> Related question,
>> How much of the nutritional needs of medieval people
>> came from dairy?
>> (But, I tend to think it varied a lot.
>> For Vikings a considerable amount, for southerners much less.)
>
> It's worth remembering that on fast days dairy products were not
> permitted, and there were a lot of fast days.
Surely that refers to meat, not milk.
Renia
Our medieval counterparts didn't think in terms of vegetarianism. They
thought in terms of what was edible and available.
David Friedman
Renia <re...@otenet.gr> wrote:
And what was or was not permitted in fast days. Which got close to our
vegetarianism.
David Friedman
Weland <gi...@poetic.com> wrote:
> > Wow! Neat. Thanks for some real clear and specific answers! So, the
> > aristocrates did not go for specialty cheeses.
>
> Well, that depends on time, region....Charlemagne is rather famous (if
> this is historical anyway) for having a fondness for a cheese, probably
> Brie or Roquefort or something similar. That's pretty
> aristocratic....on the other hand, something like cheese soup (some of
> which are delicious....Brie, apple, garlic and celery for example) would
> probably be considered peasant food in much the same way that lobster
> was once considered poor people chow. Friedman can probably confirm or
> elucidate further.
Form of Curye has "Tart de bry." I don't know if that was the same as
our brie, but it's presumably a specific cheese. Various 14th and 15th
c. English tart recipes that include cheese. Cheese soups in Platina and
Le Menagier.
David Friedman
Renia <re...@otenet.gr> wrote:
Fast days in lent, no milk. Ordinary fast days milk is permitted. So not
so many as I had supposed--my error.
Erilar
So they made cheese then, I presume.
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
Pete Barrett
<dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
>> > I am no expert, but I wonder if this pairing of dairy and eggs had to do
>> > with the fact that both are produced by animals, not part of animals that
>> > have to die for the food to available.
>>
>> Our medieval counterparts didn't think in terms of vegetarianism. They
>> thought in terms of what was edible and available.
>
>And what was or was not permitted in fast days. Which got close to our
>vegetarianism.
>
Was there some reasoning behind what was permitted, as a matter of
interest? Some way of thinking which would categorise meat as
different from fish, and both as different from milk and eggs, but
which would categorise milk and eggs together?
I think that may be what the poster was getting at.
Pete Barrett
W. Baker
: On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 23:28:54 -0600, David Friedman
: <dd...@daviddfriedman.nopsam.com> wrote:
: Pete Barrett
Yes. I recall hearing somewhere in my youth tht there was a dispute over
whether a whale was meat of fish, as i breathed air, but swam in the sea
and a Pope(I don't remembere who and may never have known) stated that it
swims in th sea so it is fish. this meant it cul dbe eaten on Friday,
etc.
Wendy Baker
Paul J Gans
Well, how if they were not permitted to milk a cow on fast days?
Tronscend
"John Yeadon" <bottoml...@blueyonder.co.uk> skrev i melding
news:MPG.278bf6c98...@news.virginmedia.com...
In these our mountainous regions many farms and summer pasture cottages
included a milk shed, a sort of cistern with stone flooring with a streamlet
running through it to provide cooling.
However, in dairy economy milk was a raw material for further processing.
The cream was skimmed off and churned to butter, which some places doubled
as currency (you could pay taxes in butter) - clearly there was a premium on
fat those days.
No idea whay they did with the "buttermilk" (the leftovers), but I assume it
was served as drink with one of the numerous meals.
Cream could also be soured, for a longer shelf life.
The milk was processed into cheese, on account of storability - probably
there was some kind of premium on protein too.
Milk could also be soured in various ways; and sour milk could also be
processed into cheese.
The whey could be drunk, or reduced over heat to a lactose rich paste,
either from fresh milk or from sour milk.
T
Tronscend
"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> skrev i melding
news:ifvfg...@news4.newsguy.com...
Vikings ate dried fish, no refrigerator on board.
The Norse, however ...
Dairy farming is the most economical way of exploiting land which is
unarable, like mountain pastures. Transforms grass into milk (fat, cheese
and sugar), with a goat or a cow every Yule into the bargain.
So I would guess that the diet percentage is a direct function of the
availability of arable land, with the concommittant status issue: a person
who could not afford a farm field in, say, fat flat Flanders, was obviously
of the poorer sort; hence dairy produce may have had an associated lower
perceived value.
T
Tronscend
.....
> Well, how if they were not permitted to milk a cow on fast days?
Of course they were permitted to tend to animals on religious holidays.
Horses, cattle, pigs, sheep, goats and hens all have to be fed, the stables
and byres mucked, and the dairy animals milked, even if you don't permit
yourself goat milk on this or that friday, sunday or special mass.
T
W. Baker
: "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> skrev i melding
: T
We have the remains of a noorthern dairying culture that, clearly goes way
back in time,in the modern ability of Northern Europeans to consume milk
and other dairy producs without digestive problems while most other
peoples, including Southern Europeans and Asians, and Africans, suffer
from latose intolerance, which, at its mildest makes drinking unfermented
milk a painful experience.
Side question-Do Laplanders drink the reindeer milk as well as use them
for food and clohing, etc? I woudl assume they do.
Wendy Baker
Erilar
Milking isn't eating or drinking; it can be done without breaking the
rules.
Paul J Gans
You've made some excellent points, both in this post and your
previous one. I would assume that the Swiss had similar farming
solutions as well.
Paul J Gans
W. Baker
I know they have had this for quite a while. I remember learning in a
Geography class aabout the Swiss Transhumance, when people moved with the
cows up mountain to good pastures for the summer and came back down as
winter was coming to watmer, less snowy areas. I would assume that
Scandinavians, particularly in modern day Norway, with its fiords, whould
have, and possibly stilll does follow this pattern. This is a very
ancient paratice, origianlly done by the animals, themselves as can be
seen with elk, caribo, etc in the US Rocky Mountin West even today.
Wendy Baker
Renia
I made similar points myself a few days ago. Wondering if my posts
aren't getting through.
Weland
Yes they did...there were several groups that advocated vegetarianism,
some were deemed heretics, some were monastic orders, some saints
including St Jerome. Both sides considered it an essential element of
attaining holiness to oversimplify. Whether this reached down into the
levels of the lower classes is a different question, but some medieval
folk at least thought in terms of vegetarianism.
Tronscend
"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> skrev i melding
news:ig4llv$dkh$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> Tronscend <tron...@frizurf.no> wrote:
>
> Side question-Do Laplanders drink the reindeer milk as well as use them
> for food and clohing, etc? I woudl assume they do.
Well, there are no "the" Laplanders; linguistically they are diverse enough
to have languages that are mutually incomprehensible.
In some areas milk was said to be drunk, but not in all.
In some areas, reindeer milk was used as a preservtive for cloudberries,
the main remedy for (against?) scurvy.
Reindeer milk was probably also only available in calving (?) season.
MVH,
T
Tronscend
"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> skrev i melding
news:ig56sd$kb4$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:
> : Tronscend <tron...@frizurf.no> wrote:
....
> I know they have had this for quite a while. I remember learning in a
> Geography class aabout the Swiss Transhumance, when people moved with the
> cows up mountain to good pastures for the summer and came back down as
> winter was coming to watmer, less snowy areas. I would assume that
> Scandinavians, particularly in modern day Norway, with its fiords,
... and its petroleum ...
> have, and possibly stilll does follow this pattern.
Sorry to disappoint, but while this was indeed the pattern well past the
youth of my parents' generation, the new affluence from ca. 1972 (Oil
Crisis) increasingly made people abandon milking cows in the mountains for
caffe latte in town. Or what we call a town.
There are two mountain "seter" (comp. to a Swiss "Senne") still operating;
one of them in my father's childhood valley, I'm proud to say. They still
produce cheese w/o access to electricity, 6 km from the nearest road. Or
what they call a road.
Goat, sheep and cattle that doesn't need milking (heifers ...? and young
oxen) are still driven to high pasture in summer, or what we call a summer,
and driven home in autumn; mostly to be butchered, since there usually isn't
enough fodder to keep them all during winter.
This is a very
> ancient paratice, origianlly done by the animals, themselves as can be
> seen with elk, caribo, etc in the US Rocky Mountin West even today.
The trek, not the dairy stuff, I assume?
T
David Friedman
Weland <gi...@poetic.com> wrote:
Possibly for medical reasons as well.
Du Fait de Cuisine is a 15th c. cookbook by the chief cook of the Duke
of Savory; it describes how to do a very large and fancy feast. One of
the things it mentions is that there will be guests who are not eating
meat and must be provided for.
Renia
Several "groups" or individuals does not represent society at large. If
it did, you could say that medievals thought in terms of committing
murder, because several groups or individuals undertook it.
The great mass of people did not have the luxury of being picky about
their food and ate and drank whatever was available to them.
Matt Tompkins
> I know they have had this for quite a while. I remember learning in a
> Geography class aabout the Swiss Transhumance, when people moved with the
> cows up mountain to good pastures for the summer and came back down as
> winter was coming to watmer, less snowy areas. I would assume that
> Scandinavians, particularly in modern day Norway, with its fiords, whould
> have, and possibly stilll does follow this pattern. This is a very
> ancient paratice, origianlly done by the animals, themselves as can be
> seen with elk, caribo, etc in the US Rocky Mountin West even today.
>
> Wendy Baker
Transhumance in Switzerland and other Alpine regions wasn't solely a
question of taking advantage of the high summer pastures - it also
performed the equally essential function of removing the animals from
the arable fields around the winter settlement. The following is from
a book by Harold Fox due to come out later this year (it's about
transhumance on medieval Dartmoor - the quote is from the introductory
discussion of transhumance generally):
"The rationale of the system according to E. Davies, writing with the
Alps in mind, is as follows: ‘transhumance ... is closely related to
cultivation, and the movements of livestock to mountain pastures arise
from the need for clearing the lower-lying land for cultivation,
especially of fodder crops and hay.’ This may be to lay too great an
emphasis on the character of the lower lands as a driving force. In
reality, the lesser transhumance has two purposes, which were neatly
inter-related. The first of these largely concerns crops: in summer
the narrow Alpine valleys and their steep lower slopes are the only
lands which may be cultivated for bread grains and fodder and it
therefore becomes essential to clear them of animals as far as is
possible, both to make space and also to minimize the risk of damage
to crops by livestock. The second purpose largely concerns livestock:
in summer the upper slopes, too cold to allow growth of grass in
winter, become verdant again and are able to receive animals displaced
from below; moreover, use of the upper slopes allows the farmer to
keep more head of stock then he would be able to do if he used the
lower lands for both summer pasture and growth of enough fodder to
keep animals alive in winter."
The quote is from E. Davies, ‘The patterns of transhumance in Europe’,
Geography 25 (1940), p. 155.
Matt Tompkins
W. Baker
: Hi there,
: T
Of course, and thank you for the contemporary information.
Wendy Baker
Weland
No one claimed such a identification, unless you mean "our medieval
counterparts" to indicate "medieval society as a whole." You said "our
medieval counterparts didn't think in terms of vegetarianism", but in
fact, some of our medieval counterparts did. Where you jump from that
to society as a whole I am unclear on.
If
> it did, you could say that medievals thought in terms of committing
> murder, because several groups or individuals undertook it.
Sure, and you could say that "our medieval counterparts didn't think in
terms of committing murder" and when pointed out that some did in fact
so think and act on those thoughts claim that that didn't medan that the
society as a whole did. Oh wait.....
>
> The great mass of people did not have the luxury of being picky about
> their food and ate and drank whatever was available to them.
That isn't true either. There are mores and habits, some things that
won't be eaten, some thing chosen to be or not to be eaten...David has
mentioned an example in this thread already.
Tronscend
"Renia" <re...@otenet.gr> skrev i melding
news:ig0q87$srd$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
.....
>> I am no expert, but I wonder if this pairing of dairy and eggs had to do
>> with the fact that both are produced by animals, not part of animals that
>> have to die for the food to available.
>
> Our medieval counterparts didn't think in terms of vegetarianism. They
> thought in terms of what was edible and available.
Given that there was such a pairing, it might more be a matter of 'unusual
taxonomy' than vegetarianism. Something to do with legal (and perhaps
theological; re lent) casuistry.
For all I know, food obtained by removing the food source (butchering milk
producing cattle and egg laying fowl) might be regarded differently than e.g
said milk and eggs. If it was a young and productive animal, I'm sure the
value of the meat sometimes somewhere was discouinted against the loss of
future 'produce'.
As an example, IIRC "egg money" sometimes somewhere (Malta? Where cathedrals
were built by it) was treated as a different kind of income than the rest of
the farm's resources. Perhaps it was the element of 'voluntary overtime'
which created different ownership.
Not that I know it, but wrt. the DA, few things would surprise.
T
W. Baker
: Hi there,
: T
Just thought of something here. Shrove Tuesday was called Pancake Day in
parts of medieval england because one used up all ths eggs etc then beore
the Lenten fast. I believe fish was eaten during lent, however, so not
strictly vegetarianism.
Wendy Baker.
Renia
It is called Pancake Day in modern England and English-speaking
countries. The word "shrove" is the past tense of "shrive", or to obtain
absolution for one's sins through confession and penance. It is the day
before Lent, the season of fasting. As you say, pancakes were a way of
using up eggs, sweetener and milk, but originally, was served with a
meat-based stew.
Tossing the pancake is the only celebration in the UK of what many other
countries call Carnival, when people dress up and celebrate elaborately
before Lent.
Until comparatively recently, Catholics did without meat every Friday,
hence the tradition for fish (and chips!) on Fridays. To this day,
members of the Greek Orthodox church still abstain from meat and fat
during Lent and eat only fish.
Pancake day this year is on March 8th.
Michael Kuettner
news:ig56sd$kb4$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> Geography class aabout the Swiss Transhumance, when people moved with the
> cows up mountain to good pastures for the summer and came back down as
> winter was coming to watmer, less snowy areas.
Not exactly. Not the people are moving, but only some people who look
after the cows. They're called "Sennen" or "Almhirten".
Moving the cows up is the "Almauftrieb", moving them down is the
"Almabtrieb".
That form of landuse is common in all the mountaineous areas in Central
Europe.
Two reasons for that :
(a) the lower land can be used for farming (as another poster mentioned)
(b) the higher land isn't arable; the only use is pastures.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Diogenes
wrote:
When I was growing up in the American Midwest the average small farm
still had a chicken coop, which was cared for by the wife. The profits
("egg money") were usually controlled by the farmwife and regarded as
her discretionary funds.
Of course that sort of agricultural operation is now a thing of the
past.
----
Diogenes
The wars are long, the peace is frail
The madmen come again . . . .
David Friedman
Renia <re...@otenet.gr> wrote:
> As you say, pancakes were a way of
> using up eggs, sweetener and milk, but originally, was served with a
> meat-based stew.
Can you give a source for that?
Eric Stevens
A similar practice occurs in the mountainous high country of the South
Island of New Zealand. Sheep are moved up to the 'tops' for the summer
and back down to the river valleys for the winter.
Eric Stevens
Renia
> In article<igbut0$h6e$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Renia<re...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
>> As you say, pancakes were a way of
>> using up eggs, sweetener and milk, but originally, was served with a
>> meat-based stew.
>
> Can you give a source for that?
>
Wikipedia, I'm afraid:
Q
A traditional pancake is slightly thicker than a French cr�pe. It is
served immediately after preparation. Long ago it was traditionally
served with a meat-based stew (also a luxury then).
UNQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrove_Tuesday
David Friedman
Renia <re...@otenet.gr> wrote:
> On 09/01/2011 20:39, David Friedman wrote:
> > In article<igbut0$h6e$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > Renia<re...@otenet.gr> wrote:
> >
> >> As you say, pancakes were a way of
> >> using up eggs, sweetener and milk, but originally, was served with a
> >> meat-based stew.
> >
> > Can you give a source for that?
> >
>
> Wikipedia, I'm afraid:
>
> Q
> A traditional pancake is slightly thicker than a French crępe. It is
> served immediately after preparation. Long ago it was traditionally
> served with a meat-based stew (also a luxury then).
> UNQ
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrove_Tuesday
While I have nothing against Wikipedia and frequently refer to it, I
don't find that sort of generalization without source very
informative."Long ago" might mean a century ago or five centuries. When
they say "a traditional pancake is," I interpret that as probably
referring to contemporary pancakes--the kind you get at IHOP.
So far as I can tell, generic stew, at least as I use the term--stewed
cut up meat in a thick liquid with substantial pieces of root
vegetables--doesn't exist in the surviving corpus of English/French
recipes prior to about 1500; the closest recipe I know of is beef ribs
stewed with minced onions and spices. How much later than that it
appears I don't know.
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
tron...@frizurf.no (Tronscend) wrote:
> Given that there was such a pairing, it might more be a matter of
> 'unusual taxonomy' than vegetarianism. Something to do with legal
> (and perhaps theological; re lent) casuistry
As far as I know vegetarianism as such was never a Medieval concept.
The various dietary restrictions were all the result of other factors.
For a start the poor would have had trouble affording meat. Fridays and
Lent were supposed to be meat free for religious reasons and Elizabeth I
added Wednesdays as fish days to encourage the development of sea men.
There were plenty of oddities, for example the barnacle goose was put in
the fish category. Another point worth mentioning is that life involved
a lot more physical labour than the modern period so calorie intake
would have been higher just to keep fit.
Ken Young