'scheyern' etymology

b3141

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Dec 11, 2009, 12:13:47 PM12/11/09

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..
anne... can anyone be of help re etymology of german 'scheyern' ?
'Scheyern' was original name of the bavarian wittelsbach lineage.
They were at castle scheyern before moving to castle wittelsbach.

i like 'bright' etymology. Are there other options. 'bright' as in
roots' scir' and 'scaer.' The hades ferrman 'charon' equates to
'fierce brightness.'

Michael Kuettner

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Dec 12, 2009, 4:27:24 AM12/12/09

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"b3141" schrieb :

Nothing bright here.
It just means someone who owns a barn (for storing corn).
Scheune, Scheuer = barn.

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

Brian M. Scott

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Dec 12, 2009, 3:42:44 PM12/12/09

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On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:13:47 -0800 (PST), b3141
<b3...@netzero.com> wrote in
<news:656e6806-0780-4521...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>
in soc.history.medieval:

> ..
> anne... can anyone be of help re etymology of german 'scheyern' ?
> 'Scheyern' was original name of the bavarian wittelsbach lineage.
> They were at castle scheyern before moving to castle wittelsbach.

The name expert Ernst Schwarz thought that the place-name
derived from the Skiren, an East Germanic tribe who first
appear in history near the Black Sea in the 3rd century.
This name has a plausible Germanic etymology, 'the pure
ones' (cf. Old English <sc�r> and Old Norse <sk�rr> 'clear,
bright, pure', Gothic <skeirs> 'clear').

[...]

Brian

Michael Kuettner

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Dec 12, 2009, 6:43:47 PM12/12/09

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"Brian M. Scott" schrieb :

> On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:13:47 -0800 (PST), b3141

> <b3...@netzero.com> wrote :

>> ..
>> anne... can anyone be of help re etymology of german 'scheyern' ?
>> 'Scheyern' was original name of the bavarian wittelsbach lineage.
>> They were at castle scheyern before moving to castle wittelsbach.
>
> The name expert Ernst Schwarz thought that the place-name
> derived from the Skiren, an East Germanic tribe who first
> appear in history near the Black Sea in the 3rd century.
> This name has a plausible Germanic etymology, 'the pure
> ones' (cf. Old English <sc�r> and Old Norse <sk�rr> 'clear,
> bright, pure', Gothic <skeirs> 'clear').
>
> [...]

Except that the Wittelsbacher were a little too late for that
(but that's just my opinion).
The etymology might be plausible, but it just doesn't fit (for me).

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

Brian M. Scott

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Dec 12, 2009, 7:42:11 PM12/12/09

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On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 00:43:47 +0100, Michael Kuettner
<Michael....@gmx.at> wrote in
<news:hg19ri$r1v$1...@news.eternal-september.org> in
soc.history.medieval:

> "Brian M. Scott" schrieb :

>> On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:13:47 -0800 (PST), b3141
>> <b3...@netzero.com> wrote :

>>> anne... can anyone be of help re etymology of german 'scheyern' ?

>>> 'Scheyern' was original name of the bavarian wittelsbach lineage.
>>> They were at castle scheyern before moving to castle wittelsbach.

>> The name expert Ernst Schwarz thought that the place-name
>> derived from the Skiren, an East Germanic tribe who first
>> appear in history near the Black Sea in the 3rd century.
>> This name has a plausible Germanic etymology, 'the pure
>> ones' (cf. Old English <sc�r> and Old Norse <sk�rr> 'clear,
>> bright, pure', Gothic <skeirs> 'clear').

> Except that the Wittelsbacher were a little too late for that

> (but that's just my opinion).
> The etymology might be plausible, but it just doesn't fit (for me).

The place-name could be considerably older than the family
that eventually adopted it.

Brian

b3141

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Dec 15, 2009, 1:48:25 PM12/15/09

to

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

anne... thanks for responses. The 'skirr' for 'bright' etymology
certainly is in keeping with what i had found
for greek 'charon' as 'fierce brightness.'
000000000000000000000000

Michael Kuettner

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Dec 15, 2009, 6:05:03 PM12/15/09

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"Brian M. Scott" schrieb :
> Michael Kuettner wrote :

>
>> "Brian M. Scott" schrieb :
>
>>> On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:13:47 -0800 (PST), b3141
>>> <b3...@netzero.com> wrote :
>
>>>> anne... can anyone be of help re etymology of german 'scheyern' ?
>>>> 'Scheyern' was original name of the bavarian wittelsbach lineage.
>>>> They were at castle scheyern before moving to castle wittelsbach.
>
>>> The name expert Ernst Schwarz thought that the place-name
>>> derived from the Skiren, an East Germanic tribe who first
>>> appear in history near the Black Sea in the 3rd century.
>>> This name has a plausible Germanic etymology, 'the pure
>>> ones' (cf. Old English <sc�r> and Old Norse <sk�rr> 'clear,
>>> bright, pure', Gothic <skeirs> 'clear').
>
>> Except that the Wittelsbacher were a little too late for that
>> (but that's just my opinion).
>> The etymology might be plausible, but it just doesn't fit (for me).
>
> The place-name could be considerably older than the family
> that eventually adopted it.
>

Yabbut, Occam's Razor for me. I don't need an obscure East
Germanic tribe, no OE and ON (which weren't in use in Bavaria).
I just need a Scheuer (Scheune).
Less glamorous, but safer ;-P

Does Schwarz go into detail where the people came from ?
Did he manage to trace the Scheyern to a village founded by
an East Germanic tribe ?
If yes, OK. If no, I'll reserve judgement ...

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

Brian M. Scott

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Dec 15, 2009, 8:38:45 PM12/15/09

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On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:05:03 +0100, Michael Kuettner
<Michael....@gmx.at> wrote in
<news:hg94ov$s48$1...@news.eternal-september.org> in
soc.history.medieval:

> "Brian M. Scott" schrieb :

>> Michael Kuettner wrote :

>>> "Brian M. Scott" schrieb :

>>>> On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:13:47 -0800 (PST), b3141
>>>> <b3...@netzero.com> wrote :

>>>>> anne... can anyone be of help re etymology of german 'scheyern' ?
>>>>> 'Scheyern' was original name of the bavarian wittelsbach lineage.
>>>>> They were at castle scheyern before moving to castle wittelsbach.

>>>> The name expert Ernst Schwarz thought that the place-name
>>>> derived from the Skiren, an East Germanic tribe who first
>>>> appear in history near the Black Sea in the 3rd century.
>>>> This name has a plausible Germanic etymology, 'the pure
>>>> ones' (cf. Old English <sc�r> and Old Norse <sk�rr> 'clear,
>>>> bright, pure', Gothic <skeirs> 'clear').

>>> Except that the Wittelsbacher were a little too late for that
>>> (but that's just my opinion).
>>> The etymology might be plausible, but it just doesn't fit (for me).

>> The place-name could be considerably older than the family
>> that eventually adopted it.

> Yabbut, Occam's Razor for me. I don't need an obscure East
> Germanic tribe, no OE and ON (which weren't in use in Bavaria).

You missed the point of the OE and ON: along with the Goth.
they show that the word was common Germanic.

> I just need a Scheuer (Scheune).
> Less glamorous, but safer ;-P

Not when you consider the early forms of the place-name and
derived surname: <Ottoni de Schyren> 1030, <Arnolt et Otto
de Sciren> 1080, <Otto et frater eius Arnolt de Skiren>
1095, <Otto comes de Skyryn> 1070, <Pernhart de Sciren
filius advocati> 1070, <Arnoldus comes et filius eius
Chounradus de Schyren> in the Chronicon Schirense (1st half
of the 13th c.), as also <Otto et Oudalricus fraters de
Schyren>.

<Scheuer> is from OHG <sciura>, MHG <schiure>, <sch�re>,
cognate with MDu. <schuur>, all from PGmc. *skeurijo: and
*sku:rijo:, resp. (A corresponding masculine PGmc. *sku:raz
gave rise to OHG <sc�r> 'Wetterdach, Schutz', NHG <Schauer>
'shower; shed, barn', OSax. <sk�r> 'Schutz', ON <sk�rr> 'a
shed'.) Nothing here supports the possibility of early MHG
forms with <-ir->.

[...]

Brian

b3141

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Dec 18, 2009, 11:16:53 AM12/18/09

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===================
================
... anne.... can anyone tell us who is the first recorded noble
of the scheyern clan, the family
... that eventually became the wittelsbachs ?

================
===============

b3141

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Dec 20, 2009, 2:20:01 PM12/20/09

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88888888888

anne... i'm seeing berthold {died 977 or 980), as an early countr of
scheyern.
http://www.penrose.org/getperson.php?personID=I36399&tree=penrose
indicates
he was descended from charlemagne.

anyone coming up with earlier counts of scheyern ?

88888888888

Brian M. Scott

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Dec 20, 2009, 4:17:42 PM12/20/09

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On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:20:01 -0800 (PST), b3141
<b3...@netzero.com> wrote in
<news:c2fc3083-6512-404c...@m25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>
in soc.history.medieval:

> anne... i'm seeing berthold {died 977 or 980), as an early countr of
> scheyern.
> http://www.penrose.org/getperson.php?personID=I36399&tree=penrose
> indicates
> he was descended from charlemagne.

I'd not trust any unreferenced claim from a genealogy site.
<http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BAVARIAN%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc197565754>
cites legitimate sources, acknowledges uncertainties, and
seems in general to be reliable; its first identifiable
member of the family is from the 11th century.

Brian

Michael Kuettner

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Dec 23, 2009, 2:55:03 AM12/23/09

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"Brian M. Scott" schrieb :

Sounds very good; I stand corrected.
Just three minor points :
(a) I'm always a little sceptical where the etymology of noble names
comes into play. Noble houses payed rather well to trace their names
to some noble roots
(b) PGmc. *skeurijo leads directly to Scheyern; especially in the Southern
German dialects. "eu" is often pronounced "ei"; like "Feia" for "Feuer", eg.
(c) Scheyern not only meant the owner of a barn (silo), but also the ad-
ministrator of silos, a rather important position at court.

But as I've said, I stand corrected (since this is Usenet : until I can come
up with something to contradict you ;-P).

Apart from that, a Merry Christmas to you and the other readers of shm.

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

b3141

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Dec 23, 2009, 11:36:42 AM12/23/09

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..
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

anne... it's looking as though SOME folks feel
the scheyern clan was connected to a line known as the
'luitpoldinger' nobles of bavaria. But, then again, other lugs seem
to feel this connection is ambiguous. Any help here from
members of this forum ?

pppppppppppppp