Any evidence behing the melted gold story?
Enguiring Mind
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For years I have heard the following claim:
In 70 A.D, the Romans destroyed the temple in Jerusalem. History
records that the Roman army burned temple, and the fire melted
the gold in the temple. After the fire was out, the Romans
discovered that the gold had melted and run down between the
cracks of the rocks. Therefore, they pulled up all the stones
to get at the gold.
Is there any archaeological or historical evidence that this
really happened? Or is it just a story made up because the Bible
has Jesus predicting "the days will come in which there will not
be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."
I have searched and searched the web, and can fid no source for
the above claim. The closest I can find is this from Josephus:
"As he came to Jerusalem in his progress [in returning from
Antioch to Egypt], and compared the melancholy condition he
saw it then in, with the ancient glory of the city [compared]
with the greatness of its present ruins (as well as its
ancient splendor). He could not but pity the destruction
of the city…. Yet there was no small quantity of the riches
that had been in that city still found among the ruins, a
great deal of which the Romans dug up; but the greatest
part was discovered by those who were captives [Jewish
captives were forced by the Roman troops to dig up the
stones of their own city looking for gold], and so they
[the Romans] carried it away; I mean the gold and the
silver, and the rest of that most precious furniture
which the Jews had, and which the owners had treasured
up under ground against the uncertainties of war."
..which isn't quite the same.
Another question that comes to mind is this: If all the
stones of the temple were torn down, what the heck is that
wall that the Jews pray against every day?
inv...@example.com
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Look at http://www.askelm.com/temple/t001211.htm
and search for the world "gold." that page has the
references you are looking for.
--
misc.business.product-dev: a Usenet newsgroup
about the Business of Product Development.
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Doug Weller
inv...@example.com wrote:
>
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit
>
>
>Look at http://www.askelm.com/temple/t001211.htm
>and search for the world "gold." that page has the
>references you are looking for.
What have I missed? I can't find any references about gold that aren't
back to Josephus.
What is the evidence that Josephus is right (including his comments about
the complete destruction of Jerusalem.
Doug
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/
Christopher Ingham
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit
>
> For years I have heard the following claim:
>
> In 70 A.D, the Romans destroyed the temple in Jerusalem. History
> records that the Roman army burned temple, and the fire melted
> the gold in the temple. After the fire was out, the Romans
> discovered that the gold had melted and run down between the
> cracks of the rocks. Therefore, they pulled up all the stones
> to get at the gold.
>
> Is there any archaeological or historical evidence that this
> really happened? Or is it just a story made up because the Bible
> has Jesus predicting "the days will come in which there will not
> be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."
>
> I have searched and searched the web, and can fid no source for
> the above claim. The closest I can find is this from Josephus:
>
> "As he came to Jerusalem in his progress [in returning from
> Antioch to Egypt], and compared the melancholy condition he
> saw it then in, with the ancient glory of the city [compared]
> with the greatness of its present ruins (as well as its
> ancient splendor). He could not but pity the destruction
> that had been in that city still found among the ruins, a
> great deal of which the Romans dug up; but the greatest
> part was discovered by those who were captives [Jewish
> captives were forced by the Roman troops to dig up the
> stones of their own city looking for gold], and so they
> [the Romans] carried it away; I mean the gold and the
> silver, and the rest of that most precious furniture
> which the Jews had, and which the owners had treasured
> up under ground against the uncertainties of war."
>
> ..which isn't quite the same.
>
> Another question that comes to mind is this: If all the
> stones of the temple were torn down, what the heck is that
> wall that the Jews pray against every day?
Certainly any melted gold was but a small portion of the wealth
carried off by the Romans after the Jewish revolt. The famous
preserved reliefs of the Arch of Titus in Rome show soldiers
bearing the_menorah_and other sacred objects from the Temple
of Jerusalem. These were subsequently displayed in Vespasian's
Temple of Peace, a building complex (adjacent to the Roman
Forum) considered by Pliny to be one of the most beautiful in the
world, which itself was paid for by booty from the Jewish war.
Other building projects in Rome and the provinces are said to have
been similarly funded.
The Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed at this time, but
substantial remains of the temple's massive Herodian platform
survive.
Christopher Ingham
JTEM
> Look athttp://www.askelm.com/temple/t001211.htm
> and search for the world "gold." that page has the
> references you are looking for.
It's really just a repeat of the claim.
JTEM
> The Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed at this time, but
> substantial remains of the temple's massive Herodian
> platform survive.
Even that much is heavily disputed.
There are many, many, many who claim that any remains
are of the fort, not the temple.
Matt Giwer
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit
> For years I have heard the following claim:
Can you remember where you heard it? Can you at least remember if it was from a
credible source or a passing remark?
I have never heard of any such story. There are some possible origins for it.
Someone mentioned invented to match a prophecy. Another is, where the hell is
all the gold they were supposed to have? Another is to explain why there are no
signs of it today.
--
If torture works, McCain talked.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3941
http://www.giwersworld.org a1
Matt Giwer
> On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:08:12 +0000, in sci.archaeology,
> inv...@example.com wrote:
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit
>> Look at http://www.askelm.com/temple/t001211.htm
>> and search for the world "gold." that page has the
>> references you are looking for.
> What have I missed? I can't find any references about gold that aren't
> back to Josephus.
> What is the evidence that Josephus is right (including his comments about
> the complete destruction of Jerusalem.
Ever find anything by Josephus that was not an obvious exaggeration?
The correct answer is in the form of a question, what held out during the 134
revolt if Jerusalem had been destroyed?
--
How reasonable is it to be unable to establish a single murder beyond a
reasonable doubt yet claim millions were murdered based upon hearsay?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3931
http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/bombings.phtml a5
Matt Giwer
...
>> Another question that comes to mind is this: If all the
>> stones of the temple were torn down, what the heck is that
>> wall that the Jews pray against every day?
> Certainly any melted gold was but a small portion of the wealth
> carried off by the Romans after the Jewish revolt. The famous
> preserved reliefs of the Arch of Titus in Rome show soldiers
> bearing the_menorah_and other sacred objects from the Temple
> of Jerusalem. These were subsequently displayed in Vespasian's
> Temple of Peace, a building complex (adjacent to the Roman
> Forum) considered by Pliny to be one of the most beautiful in the
> world, which itself was paid for by booty from the Jewish war.
> Other building projects in Rome and the provinces are said to have
> been similarly funded.
Is there a credible source for this claim? The recent one about it paying for
building the coliseum was fabricated just as recently.
> The Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed at this time, but
> substantial remains of the temple's massive Herodian platform
> survive.
Fact is the only surviving descriptions from which the location of the temple
can be derived preclude it having been where people claim it was today. All six
surviving descriptions have to be wrong for it to have been where the mosques
are today.
--
Assassination is death by natural causes for politicians.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3929
http://www.giwersworld.org a1
Matt Giwer
...
> Another question that comes to mind is this: If all the
> stones of the temple were torn down, what the heck is that
> wall that the Jews pray against every day?
The idea that wall had anything to do with the temple first appeared in history
in the late 19th century. There is no mention of such a connection before then.
I know people will claim there is but they can never produce an older reference.
--
There is not a single autopsy showing a single Jew died by gassing during
WWII. One has to ask why anyone believes when there is no evidence.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3940
http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/occupied-2.phtml a6
Enguiring Mind
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit
Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>Enguiring Mind wrote:
>
>> For years I have heard the following claim:
>
>Can you remember where you heard it? Can you at least remember
>if it was from a credible source or a passing remark?
It has been claimed from the pulpit of thousands of churches.
A Google search of prophecy temple melted gold turns up many
examples. I was reluctant to mention that I am Christian who
has heard these things in church, because I want to limit the
discussion to archaeology and history, not religion. I think
that these newsgroups get way to much religious discussion as
it is. I want to talk about the science. There are some nice
religion newsgroups where I can talk about the theology.
>I have never heard of any such story. There are some possible
>origins for it.
Don't hang around fundamentalist churches much, do you? :)
A typical example of what gets said from the pulpit can
be seen in the "Arena Christian Church pastor's Blog" at
http://www.awindowofopportunity.org/journal.php?id=27
"Here is what is amazing. The Temple was destroyed, just like
Jesus said it would, about 40 years after He was crucified
by the Romans. Jesus said that the Temple would be so
completely demolished that "not one stone will be left on
top of another.” This little detail is amazing. He said that
there would not be one brick not connected to another after
it was all said and done. It was at this moment where the
disciples had to think to themselves, “you’ve got to be
kidding.” 18 inch bricks made of marble. These buildings are
HUGE, and the construction is sound. Even if the prophetic
word was true, the Roman War Machine would certainly loot
the temple of it’s valuables. They would burn the cedar
wood, but to completely destroy it to the point where “not
one brick would be connected to another,” was unrealistic,
and had to be completely outside their belief system. They
certainly had to second guess Christ in their hearts, but no
doubt said nothing.
During the destruction of the temple, fire was set to the
Temple. The fire caused the gold-leaf ornamentation on the
Temple ceiling to melt. The melting gold flowed down the
walls and settled into crevices within the stones. The
Romans were instructed to pry apart the stones to remove the
gold which had filled the cracks. This fulfilled Jesus'
prophecy that not one stone would be left standing on
another, as each stone was chiseled apart from the others to
retrieve the gold.
What does this mean to us? When Jesus makes us a promise in
the Word or in our spirit, you can count on it. Believe God
for that which He has promised. His word is good. He is
faithful and true!"
Just because I am a Christian, that doesn't mean I have to
believe things that aren't true. The above has a bunch of
details that, if true, should have resulted in archaeological
and/or historical evidence.
Enguiring Mind
Matt Giwer wrote:
>The correct answer is in the form of a question, what held out
>during the 134 revolt if Jerusalem had been destroyed?
I don't understand what you are talking about. Are you
saying that the whole destruction of the temple in 70 AD
story might not be true? I thought that was a historical
fact.
Enquiring Mind
Matt Giwer wrote:
Matt Giwer
It helps to read the Doug Weller post I replied to.
>>> What have I missed? I can't find any references about gold that aren't
>>> back to Josephus.
>>> What is the evidence that Josephus is right (including his comments about
>>> the complete destruction of Jerusalem.
--
There is not a single autopsy showing a single Jew died by gassing during
WWII. One has to ask why anyone believes when there is no evidence.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3940
Matt Giwer
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit
> Matt Giwer wrote:
>> Enguiring Mind wrote:
>>> For years I have heard the following claim:
>> Can you remember where you heard it? Can you at least remember
>> if it was from a credible source or a passing remark?
> It has been claimed from the pulpit of thousands of churches.
Next time you hear some preacher make the claim, ask him. By definition
preachers are worthless sources.
> A Google search of prophecy temple melted gold turns up many
> examples.
There is no such thing as prophecy. It was done back then the say way it is
done today, AFTER the event has occurred. There is no sign of the bible or it
stories or its people prior to the appearance of the Greek Septuagint.
> I was reluctant to mention that I am Christian who
> has heard these things in church, because I want to limit the
> discussion to archaeology and history, not religion. I think
> that these newsgroups get way to much religious discussion as
> it is. I want to talk about the science. There are some nice
> religion newsgroups where I can talk about the theology.
It is good to keep religion out if it as the science of archaeology can only
consider physical evidence. Way too many people here are hung up on belief in
bible stories without physical evidence.
>> I have never heard of any such story. There are some possible
>> origins for it.
> Don't hang around fundamentalist churches much, do you? :)
Those are the worst places of all if you want are only interested in facts. To
put it bluntly, they are liars for the lord.
There would have to be a credible contemporary source to mention this but there
is not.
In matters like this one has to find the oldest mention of it and see if that
source is credible. For example we find the first mention of Christian
persecution by Nero to come from one person in the 5th century without a single
mention of it prior to him. Yet after him mention of it is a staple of Christian
history. That is a strong indication he invented the story. The sudden, late
appearance of something is a clear indication. We use the same thing today
eliminating fake stories about St. Lincoln and St. Washington.
Similarly once the gospels appear mentions of unique events in the life of
Jesus go from none to dominating christian writings. As the gospels first appear
in the mid 2nd c. or so it is reasonable to assume that is when they were written.
If you are really interested in looking into the evidentiary basis for
Christianity you are embarking upon something that will require you to
drastically change your viewpoint on almost everything you have been told about
Christianity and the old testament.
The believers here will tell you otherwise but always insist upon the evidence
in support of their position. Do not accept argumentation or appeals to
reasonableness or any other logical fallacy.
--
Human experimentation only works with double blind tests. Double blind tests
outside of drug tests are impossible. All human test of anything but drugs is
false. Therefore all child rearings theories are false.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3944
http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/occupied-2.phtml a6
Christopher Ingham
The location of the temple precinct is not seriously disputed.
The Antonia fortress was attached to the northwestern corner
of the platform. Where the Temple itself stood within the
complex is not presently known. The precinct measured
440m x 380m, roughly equal in area to the Castra Praetoria
in Rome (510m x 310m), headquarters of the elite legion
which kept watch over the capitol, a city of about a million
inhabitants. Jerusalem may have had a population of 70,000,
so one has to justify the extreme spaciousness for the troops
if the whole area were a fort. Not to mention the remains of
dozens of bath structures surrounding the Temple Mount; or
the dedication of a Rhodian benefactor recording the donation
of floor tiles, and substantial remains of gold leaf found in
rubble at the foot of the hill.
Syria in the first century BCE and first century CE was the
scene of the construction of many religious buildings of
enormous proportions; e.g., The Temple of Zeus at Damascus,
Elagabal at Emesa, Atargatis at Hierapolis, and Jupiter
Heliopolitanus at Heliopolis.
Christopher Ingham
Christopher Ingham
> Christopher Ingham wrote:
>
> ...
>
> >> Another question that comes to mind is this: If all the
> >> stones of the temple were torn down, what the heck is that
> >> wall that the Jews pray against every day?
> > Certainly any melted gold was but a small portion of the wealth
> > carried off by the Romans after the Jewish revolt. The famous
> > preserved reliefs of the Arch of Titus in Rome show soldiers
> > bearing the_menorah_and other sacred objects from the Temple
> > of Jerusalem. These were subsequently displayed in Vespasian's
> > Temple of Peace, a building complex (adjacent to the Roman
> > Forum) considered by Pliny to be one of the most beautiful in the
> > world, which itself was paid for by booty from the Jewish war.
> > Other building projects in Rome and the provinces are said to have
> > been similarly funded.
>
> Is there a credible source for this claim? The recent one about it paying for
> building the coliseum was fabricated just as recently.
>
but conspicuous above all stood out those captured in the
temple at Jerusalem. These consisted of a golden table
[the table of shew-bread], many talents in weight, and a
lampstand [the _menorah_], likewise made of gold...."
-- Josephus,_Bellum Judaicum_7.148-9 (Loeb).
These objects are also depicted on the Arch of Titus.
"The triumphal ceremonies being concluded and the empire
of the Romans established on the firmest foundation,
Vespasian decided to erect a temple to Peace. This was
very speedily completed and in a style surpassing all human
conception. For, besides having prodigious resources of
wealth on which to draw he also embellished it with ancient
masterpieces of painting and sculpture; indeed, into that
shrine were accumulated and stored all objects for the sight
of which men had once wandered over the whole world....
Here, too, he laid up the vessels of gold from the temple of
the Jews, on which he prided himself; but their Law and the
purple hangings of the sanctuary he ordered to be deposited
and kept in the palace." -- Josephus_BJ_7.158-62 (Loeb).
[Early date of completion confirmed in Cassius Dio 66.15.1;
role of Templum Pacis as public museum in Pliny,_Naturalis
historia_34.84 (other works mentioned as located there: Pliny
_NH_35.74, 35.101-2, 35.108-9, 36.27, 36.58; Pausanias
2.9.3; Aulus Gellius,_Noctes Atticae_5.11.9, 16.8.2-3)].
[An aside: Two rabbinic texts of later dates state that the
Temple treasures could still be seen in Rome (Yarden 1991,
64; Millar 2005, 127-8). These were carried off to Carthage
in 455 by the Vandal King Gaiseric and later (534) taken to
Constantinople by Belisarius, whereupon Justinian promptly
sent them to Jerusalem (Procopius,_De bello Gothico_4.19).
The record of them disappears after the Persian capture of
Jerusalem in 614.]
A recent definitive reconstruction by Alföldy of a dedicatory
inscription from the Colosseum (_CIL_6.40454a =_AE_1995,
111b) reads thus:
I[mp(erator)] T(itus) Caes(ar) Vespasi[anus Aug(ustus)]
amphitheatru[m novum ?]
[ex] manubi(i)s (vac.) [fieri iussit ?]
- which clearly states that Vespasian paid for the Colosseum
_ex manubiis_, "from the spoils of war."
Antioch was awarded spoils and a new theater for its
association in the reduction of Judaea (Malalas 260-2D).
> > The Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed at this time, but
> > substantial remains of the temple's massive Herodian platform
> > survive.
>
> Fact is the only surviving descriptions from which the location of the temple
> can be derived preclude it having been where people claim it was today. All six
> surviving descriptions have to be wrong for it to have been where the mosques
> are today.
You would need to provide some sort of cites for me to
try to answer. (Not that it would change your beliefs.)
-sources-
Alföldy, G. 1995. "Ein Bauinschrift aus dem Colosseum."
_Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik_109: 195-226.
http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/ifa/zpe/downloads/1995/109pdf/109195.pdf
Barnes, T.D. 2005. "The Sack of the Temple in Josephus
and Tacitus." In J. Edmondson et al., eds.,_Flavius
Josephus and Flavian Rome_. 129-44.
Levick, Barbara. 1999. _Vespasian_.
Millar, F. 2005. "Last Year in Jerusalem: Monuments of
the Jewish War in Rome," in J. Edmondson et al., eds.,
_Flavius Josephus and Flavian Rome_. 101-28.
Richardson, P. 1996. _Herod: King of the Jews and Friend
of the Romans_.
Roller, R.W. 1998. _The Building Program of Herod the Great_.
Yarden, L. 1991. _The Spoils of Jerusalem on the Arch of
Titus: A Re-Investigation.__Skrifta utgivna av Svenska Institutet
i Rom_ser. 8, 16.
Christopher Ingham
Whiskers
> Matt Giwer wrote:
>>Enquiring Mind wrote:
>>
>>> For years I have heard the following claim:
>>
>>Can you remember where you heard it? Can you at least remember
>>if it was from a credible source or a passing remark?
>
> It has been claimed from the pulpit of thousands of churches.
> A Google search of prophecy temple melted gold turns up many
> examples. I was reluctant to mention that I am Christian who
> has heard these things in church, because I want to limit the
> discussion to archaeology and history, not religion. I think
> that these newsgroups get way to much religious discussion as
> it is. I want to talk about the science. There are some nice
> religion newsgroups where I can talk about the theology.
>
>>I have never heard of any such story. There are some possible
>>origins for it.
>
> Don't hang around fundamentalist churches much, do you? :)
>
> A typical example of what gets said from the pulpit can
> be seen in the "Arena Christian Church pastor's Blog" at
> http://www.awindowofopportunity.org/journal.php?id=27
[...]
Repetition does not confer veracity.
Josephus makes no mention of such an event (for what that's worth); he
does record that Titus ordered the flattening of the entire city (not only
the ruins of the temple) apart from a few remnants of the fortifications,
as a symbol of Roman power - the sort of symbolism that the Romans went in
for; compare with what they did to Carthage, for instance.
Perhaps the question should be asked of the preachers who spread the
story, as to what sources for it they can adduce. Not even Wikipedia
mentions it, though; in fact the words gold and melt don't appear at all
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=First_Jewish-Roman_War&oldid=191598465>
If you start with the premise that Daniel and Jesus (among others) did
prophesy the destruction of the temple, then those prophecies clearly were
fulfilled as even the exact location of the temple is now disputed. No
need to introduce melted gold into the story - but story-tellers have
always liked to invent details to improve the performance.
(I am a Christian and I've never heard that particular story before).
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Whiskers
[...]
> Another question that comes to mind is this: If all the
> stones of the temple were torn down, what the heck is that
> wall that the Jews pray against every day?
A retaining wall, the lower part probably dating from the Roman period,
which holds up the earth of the 'Temple Mount'. Being at the western end
of that promontary, it's as near as anyone barred from the now Moslem
sanctuary can get to the supposed location of the Holy of Holies in the
vanished temple. See <http://mosaic.lk.net/g-wall.html> for a reasonable
summary.
Enquiring Mind
Matt Giwer wrote:
>If you are really interested in looking into the evidentiary basis for
>Christianity you are embarking upon something that will require you to
>drastically change your viewpoint on almost everything you have been
>told about Christianity and the old testament.
If so, so be it. Better to change churches than to live a lie.
(No need to give up on churches altogether; there are churches
that accept the basic idea of scientific evidence)
>The believers here will tell you otherwise but always insist upon the
>evidence in support of their position. Do not accept argumentation or
>appeals to reasonableness or any other logical fallacy.
Good advice.
Poetic Justice
>A recent definitive reconstruction by
>Alföldy of a dedicatory inscription from the
>Colosseum (_CIL_6.40454a =_AE_1995,
>111b) reads thus:
>I[mp(erator)] T(itus) Caes(ar)
>Vespasi[anus Aug(ustus)] amphitheatru[m
>novum ?]
>[ex] manubi(i)s (vac.) [fieri iussit ?]
When I first read of this a few years ago it got me to wondering and
perhaps you know the answer?
Is this the same man that reconstructed (using the same method; dowel
holes for the bronze lettering) the original Geta inscription on the
Arch of Septimius Severus after Caracalla's
'damnatio memoriae' on his brother?
Regards, Walter
..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...
Christopher Ingham
> Christopher Ingham wrote:
> >A recent definitive reconstruction by
> >Alföldy of a dedicatory inscription from the
> >Colosseum (_CIL_6.40454a =_AE_1995,
> >111b) reads thus:
> >I[mp(erator)] T(itus) Caes(ar)
> >Vespasi[anus Aug(ustus)] amphitheatru[m
> >novum ?]
> >[ex] manubi(i)s (vac.) [fieri iussit ?]
>
> When I first read of this a few years ago it got me to wondering and
> perhaps you know the answer?
>
> Is this the same man that reconstructed (using the same method; dowel
> holes for the bronze lettering) the original Geta inscription on the
> Arch of Septimius Severus after Caracalla's
> 'damnatio memoriae' on his brother?
The erased inscription,_P. Septimio Getae Nob(ilissimus)
Caesari_[_CIL_ 6.1033 =_ILS_425], appears to have been
deduced by Bormann (_Bollettino d'arte_[1879]: 40), although
the same formula in Geta's titulature on monuments in general
(as opposed to on coins) was earlier explained by Nibby
(_Roma antica_[1839], 1.479).
Brilliant, R. 1967. _The Arch of Septimius Severus in the
Roman Forum_, 91, 91n.1, 94, 94n.28-31.
-------. 1993. "Arcus: Septimius Severus (Forum)." In
_LTUR_1,104-5.
Christopher Ingham
JTEM
> The location of the temple precinct is not seriously
> disputed.
It is, actually.
Not directly.
But consider the fact that the Romans didn't simply rebuild
the city of Jerusalem with a new name, after it's destruction
in the 2nd century, but they changed the footprint of the
city as well.
In other words, there are no compass points!
People who claim that the Dome of the rock is the temple
mound -- because the bible says it's supposed to be in the
southeast of the city, and that's exactly where it is -- are
saying that the bible is totally wrong.
Jerusalem's "Old City" only dates back to the 2nd century,
when the Romans built it WITH A DIFFERENT FOOTPRINT
THAN IT ORIGINALLY HAD.
Another place were the cracks form, and all that non-existing
"agreement" shatters as the illusion that it is, is when you
consider what was supposed to have occupied the location of
the temple mound immediately after the Romans built a new
city on the cite.
One popular claim is that the Romans built a temple to Jupiter
on the site. Now that's interesting, because various sources
place the temple to Jupiter in a number of existing locations,
the Church of the Holy Sepulchre chief amongst them.
And, yeah, there's other little pieces of the puzzle which force
(regardless of what people want to believe) conflict.
Now you could argue that in each case it's always a minority
of dissenters, but if you add up each issue, and the percentage
who do dissent, pretty soon you're well beyond a healthy
majority.
> The Antonia fortress was attached to the northwestern
> corner of the platform.
What do you know, a compass point...
Matt Giwer
...
> The location of the temple precinct is not seriously disputed.
The location on the top of the hill is. That was likely the location of the
Temple of Ashara, Strato's Tower for the immature believers.
There are six surviving descriptions fo the temple from which the location can
be inferred. All of them preclude it having been on top of the hill. For example
one says the Holy of Holies was cleaned by opening a sluice gate in an aqueduct.
The highest aqueduct is one level lower. There was never one high enough to
reach the top.
Another point of interest is the claim it was on top of the hill where the
mosque stands first appears in the late 19th c. There is no older claim for that
location. So it cannot even be called the traditional location as it is a
recently invented location.
However please feel free to produce any and all evidence for that location
while explaining away the surviving descriptions. Please do not use logical
fallacies such as, where else would it be? and such.
=====
The mosque has eight sides. So did Ashara's Temple -- Strato's Tower if you are
still innocent. That is what was most likely on top of the hill. Otherwise
visitors to Yahweh's temple could look down on Ashara's temple and see the
priests fucking ... excuse me ... offering joint worship with the priestesses of
Ashara.
--
Suriving anything, even a holocaust, cannot elevate a devil to sainthood.
Mere survival does not grant moral authority.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3946
http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/occupied-2.phtml a6
Matt Giwer
If Josephus is credible here then he is also credible when he said the Judeans
had only 22 holy books. Josephus is not a credible source of information or
there have been a shitload of changes to the religion as he knew it.
> These objects are also depicted on the Arch of Titus.
The Menorah for SEVEN candles is depicted meaning it had not connection to the
Hanuka story which requires nine. Careful what you call for evidence. And that
is really about the only thing discernible on it and not big enough to have much
relative value even if solid gold.
> "The triumphal ceremonies being concluded and the empire
> of the Romans established on the firmest foundation,
> Vespasian decided to erect a temple to Peace. This was
> very speedily completed and in a style surpassing all human
> conception. For, besides having prodigious resources of
> wealth on which to draw he also embellished it with ancient
> masterpieces of painting and sculpture; indeed, into that
> shrine were accumulated and stored all objects for the sight
> of which men had once wandered over the whole world....
> Here, too, he laid up the vessels of gold from the temple of
> the Jews, on which he prided himself; but their Law and the
> purple hangings of the sanctuary he ordered to be deposited
> and kept in the palace." -- Josephus_BJ_7.158-62 (Loeb).
It says Vespasian was rich not where the money came from.
> [Early date of completion confirmed in Cassius Dio 66.15.1;
> role of Templum Pacis as public museum in Pliny,_Naturalis
> historia_34.84 (other works mentioned as located there: Pliny
> _NH_35.74, 35.101-2, 35.108-9, 36.27, 36.58; Pausanias
> 2.9.3; Aulus Gellius,_Noctes Atticae_5.11.9, 16.8.2-3)].
> [An aside: Two rabbinic texts of later dates state that the
> Temple treasures could still be seen in Rome (Yarden 1991,
> 64; Millar 2005, 127-8). These were carried off to Carthage
> in 455 by the Vandal King Gaiseric and later (534) taken to
> Constantinople by Belisarius, whereupon Justinian promptly
> sent them to Jerusalem (Procopius,_De bello Gothico_4.19).
> The record of them disappears after the Persian capture of
> Jerusalem in 614.]
> A recent definitive reconstruction by Alföldy of a dedicatory
> inscription from the Colosseum (_CIL_6.40454a =_AE_1995,
> 111b) reads thus:
> I[mp(erator)] T(itus) Caes(ar) Vespasi[anus Aug(ustus)]
> amphitheatru[m novum ?]
> [ex] manubi(i)s (vac.) [fieri iussit ?]
> - which clearly states that Vespasian paid for the Colosseum
> _ex manubiis_, "from the spoils of war."
>
> Antioch was awarded spoils and a new theater for its
> association in the reduction of Judaea (Malalas 260-2D).
But nothing giving any indication of the value from that one temple. Way back
when the Catholic churches were rich until the Protestants found they were
simply covered in gold leaf. It would be nothing unprecedented.
>>> The Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed at this time, but
>>> substantial remains of the temple's massive Herodian platform
>>> survive.
>> Fact is the only surviving descriptions from which the location of the temple
>> can be derived preclude it having been where people claim it was today. All six
>> surviving descriptions have to be wrong for it to have been where the mosques
>> are today.
> You would need to provide some sort of cites for me to
> try to answer. (Not that it would change your beliefs.)
I gave one in a previous post on the aqueduct sluice gate. I seem to have
misplaced the list and am looking for it.
--
Politicians sell a war fantasy. That attacking a country will turn the
citizens against their government. It has been tried dozens of times. It has
never happened. Therefore politicians attack countries for local politics.
The Iron Webmaster, 3930
http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/occupied-2.phtml a6
Matt Giwer
> Good advice.
Some of the most surprising people are becoming open with the facts.
King David was a nebbish
And Exodus never happened and the walls of Jericho did not come a-tumbling
down. How archaeologists are shaking Israel to its biblical foundations.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Laura Miller
Feb. 7, 2001 | Arguing among themselves about the meanings of objects like
pottery shards, animal bones and the foundations of long-ruined buildings is
something archaeologists usually do in the privacy of their own profession.
But when the argument is about who wrote the [6]Bible, why it was written
and what, if any, of the historical events described in the Old Testament
are true -- and when the archaeologist's excavations are conducted on some
of the most contested land in the world, the [7]Middle East -- the tempest
is almost guaranteed to boil over the rim of the teapot. No one knows this
better than [8]Israel Finkelstein, chairman of the Archaeology Department at
Tel Aviv University, who, with archaeology historian and journalist Neil
Asher Silberman, has just published a book called "The Bible Unearthed:
Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred
Text."
"The Bible Unearthed" is the latest salvo fired in a pitched battle between
those who consider the Old Testament to contain plenty of reliable
historical facts, and those who, at the opposite extreme, say it's pure
mythology. The debate reached the general population of Israel, sending what
one journalist called a "shiver" down the nation's "collective spine," in
late 1999, when another archaeologist from Tel Aviv University, Ze'ev
Herzog, wrote a cover story for the weekend magazine of the national daily
newspaper, Ha'aretz. In the essay, Herzog laid out many of the theories
Finkelstein and Silberman present in their book: "the Israelites were never
in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land [of Canaan]
in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the twelve tribes of
Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united kingdom
of David and Solomon, described in the Bible as a regional power, was at
most a small tribal kingdom." The new theories envision this modest chiefdom
as based in a Jerusalem that was essentially a cow town, not the glorious
capital of an empire.
Although, as Herzog notes, some of these findings have been accepted by the
majority of biblical scholars and archaeologists for years and even decades,
they are just now making a dent in the awareness of the Israeli public -- a
very painful dent. They challenge many of the Old Testament stories central
to Israeli beliefs about their own national character and destiny, stories
that have influenced much of Western culture as well. The tales of the
patriarchs -- Abraham, Isaac and Joseph among others -- were the first to go
when biblical scholars found those passages rife with anachronisms and other
inconsistencies. The story of Exodus, one of the most powerful epics of
enslavement, courage and liberation in human history, also slipped from
history to legend when archaeologists could no longer ignore the lack of
corroborating contemporary Egyptian accounts and the absence of evidence of
large encampments in the Sinai Peninsula ("the wilderness" where Moses
brought the Israelites after leading them through the parted Red Sea).
Herzog's article led to a nationwide bout of soul-searching. After it
appeared, universities organized conferences where distressed citizens could
quiz experts on the details and meanings of this new and not-so-new
research; Israeli newspaper journalists wrote stories casting the theories
as blows against the cultural identity and even the political legitimacy of
Israel; and scholars who quarrel with the ideas of archaeologists like
Finkelstein wrote fiery letters and editorials denouncing them as "biblical
minimalists."
Them's fightin' words. In this field, it seems, there are few worse epithets
to throw at a colleague than "minimalist." The moniker is usually applied to
a controversial group of European biblical scholars, sometimes called the
Copenhagen School, who have insisted that since there is, to their minds, so
little corroborative evidence supporting the stories in the Old Testament,
the scriptures should be regarded as a collection of legends, and figures
like David and Solomon considered "no more historical than King Arthur." The
inflammatory implication behind the name "minimalist" (which Finkelstein and
Silberman dismiss as a canard invented by the group's "detractors") is that
an emotional, religious or political agenda, rather than a judicious
weighing of the facts, drives their research. Their most vehement critics
accuse the minimalists of being anti-Bible and anti-Israeli, for to some any
attack on the historical legitimacy of the Bible, with its grand national
myth of a people chosen by God to rule in the Promised Land, is a blow
struck at the legitimacy of the current state of Israel.
Into this incendiary territory steps Finkelstein, a prominent and
well-respected Israeli archaeologist. Although his staunchest critics,
including [9]William Dever, professor of Near East archaeology and
anthropology at the University of Arizona, and Hershel Shanks, editor of the
[10]Biblical Archaeology Review, have called him a "minimalist," his
defenders scoff at the label. "The Bible Unearthed" does observe that "from
a purely literary and archaeological standpoint, the minimalists have some
points in their favor," but it concludes that "archaeology has shown that
there were simply too many material correspondences between the finds in
Israel and the world described in the Bible to suggest that the Bible was
fanciful priestly literature, written with no historical basis at all."
Nevertheless, Finkelstein is an iconoclast. He established his reputation in
part by developing a theory about the settlement patterns of the nomadic
shepherd tribes who would eventually become the Israelites, bolstering the
growing consensus that they were originally indistinguishable from the rest
of their neighbors, the Canaanites. This overturns a key element in the
Bible: The Old Testament depicts the Israelites as superior outsiders --
descended from Abraham, a Mesopotamian immigrant -- entitled by divine order
to invade Canaan and exterminate its unworthy, idolatrous inhabitants. The
famous battle of Jericho, with which the Israelites supposedly launched this
campaign of conquest after wandering for decades in the desert, has been
likewise debunked: The city of Jericho didn't exist at that time and had no
walls to come tumbling down. These assertions are all pretty much accepted
by mainstream archaeologists.
Finkelstein's latest and most controversial claim, however, concerns the
dating of certain ruins, including those at a site where he co-heads an
ongoing excavation: Megiddo. Megiddo is thought to be the location of the
final, future battle of Armageddon, but it is also named in the Bible as one
of the major provincial capitals in the united kingdom of Israel under the
reigns of David and Solomon. When archaeologists discovered the remains of
monumental structures at Megiddo in the 1920s and 1930s, they promptly
attributed them to Solomon's time. In "The Bible Unearthed," Finkelstein and
Silberman present Finkelstein's argument for redating these structures,
including the massive "Solomon's Gates" found in several similar cities, to
a period about 100 years later, and they give credit for building them to
King Ahab, husband of the notorious heathen Jezebel and a ruler much reviled
for his apostasy in the Old Testament.
Some of his colleagues find this theory unacceptable. Dever declares that
Finkelstein is "the only archaeologist in the world" who advocates the
redating. Lawrence Stager, a professor of the archaeology of Israel at
Harvard and director of the Harvard Semitic Museum, says "Ninety-five
percent of the specialists in the field would disagree with him" and
dismisses Phyllis Tribble, a professor of biblical studies who
enthusiastically reviewed "The Bible Unearthed" in the New York Times Book
Review, as someone who "doesn't know much about the Old Testament and
archaeology."
And while Baruch Halpern, a historian who was a co-director of the Megiddo
excavation with Finkelstein, describes the book as "excellent" and
"challenging," he remains unconvinced by Finkelstein's redating of the
Solomonic ruins because the theory relies overmuch on pottery seriation, a
technique for dating sites using ceramic remains, which he distrusts.
Nevertheless, Halpern expresses surprise at the extent of the ire
Finkelstein's theory has evoked. "This touched an incredibly vital nerve ...
They can't abide the thought that the consensus might be mistaken. If one of
the only absolute anchors between archaeology and the text is removed, they
are thoroughly at sea."
Ordinarily, the precise dating of buildings erected 3,000 years ago in a
kingdom that long ago passed away into ancient history would preoccupy only
a small group of specialists. Once the Bible's involved, though, all bets
are off; its influence on contemporary Israeli identity is still tremendous.
"It's used as a deed, as an outline of what people are going to do, as a way
of proving your genealogy," says Amy Dockser Marcus, former Middle East
correspondent for the Wall Street Journal and author of "The View From Nebo:
How Archaeology Is Rewriting the Bible and Reshaping the Middle East."
And it's not just Israel where the scriptures have provided a blueprint for
political and cultural as well as religious projects. Take the story of the
conquest of Canaan, for example: a legend about a "righteous" nation seizing
a great country from a people who did not deserve it. It has implications
for the establishment of the current state of Israel, but the Europeans who
colonized America deliberately invoked that conquest myth, as well, in their
campaigns against Native Americans. The Bible's story of David, who with his
great army captured Jerusalem and united a vast empire in Palestine, and his
son Solomon, who built the First Temple in Jerusalem and many magnificent
gates, palaces and stables throughout the land, depicts the united kingdom
as ancient Israel's Golden Age. The founders of the modern state of Israel
invoked that kingdom and heralded its "restoration." And even Jews who
consider themselves secular can experience the revelation of David and
Solomon's relative insignificance as deflating.
Others see the downgrading of David and Solomon's reigns as positively
ominous. In a response to Herzog's article in Ha'aretz, Hershel Shanks of
the Biblical Archaeology Review lumped both Herzog and Finkelstein with the
biblical minimalists and accused them of having "a political agenda." "[A]t
the extreme," Shanks wrote, "they can even be viewed as anti-Semitic."
According to Marcus, "People say that Finkelstein means well but what he's
doing is giving amunition to people who are anti-Israel, and you do see some
of this stuff turning up on pro-Palestinian web sites, for example."
Finkelstein himself has no patience for such charges, maintaining that he
has no political agenda and is just a scholar doing his job. "Nonsense," he
replied by e-mail when the "ammunition" issue was raised. "Research is
research, and strong societies can easily endure discoveries like this."
By comparison with today's skeptical turmoil, the early years of the modern
Israeli state were a honeymoon period for archaeology and the Bible, in
which the science seemed to validate the historical passages of the Old
Testament left and right. As Finkelstein and Silberman relate, midcentury
archaeologists usually "took the historical narratives of the Bible at face
value"; Israel's first archaeologists were often said to approach a dig with
a spade in one hand and the Bible in the other. The Old Testament frequently
served as the standard against which all other data were measured: If
someone found majestic ruins, they dated them to Solomon's time; signs of a
battle were quickly attributed to the conquest of Canaan.
That confidence was not entirely misplaced; in particular, the Old Testament
contains very detailed genealogies and gets high marks in geography.
Eventually, though, as archaeological methods improved and biblical scholars
analyzed the text itself for inconsistencies and anachronisms, the amount of
the Bible regarded as historically verifiable eroded. The honeymoon was
over.
According to Jack M. Sasson, professor of Judaic and biblical studies at
Vanderbilt University, "There is a kind of curtain drawn across the Bible.
After it you can find history, before it not. Most responsible scholars in
the '20s began with Abraham. As time progressed, the curtain moved further
down, and people were debating whether Exodus really happened, then the
conquest. Now the big debate has slipped even further [into the present]. It
has gotten down to being about the monarchy."
Marcus says that Finkelstein is "difficult to dismiss because he's so much
an insider in terms of his credentials and background. He's an
archaeologist, not a theologian, and he is an Israeli. It's hard to say that
someone who was born in Israel and intends to live the rest of his life
there is anti-Israeli." In her mind, Finkelstein's work parallels a broader
change in Israeli society led by those who, like Finkelstein, were born
after the task of state building had been accomplished. "They're not as
wedded to the mythology of Israel," she says "Their identities are not as
caught up in toeing to the traditional narratives. This group of historians
has gone into the archives and done a lot of research and come up with new
interpretations of Israel's recent past. Israel Finkelstein is part of that,
but he's looking at Israel's ancient past." Marcus calls this group of
scholars "new historians"; others have dubbed the trend "post-Zionism."
Here, also, there are striking similarities between contemporary politics
and the way ancient history gets studied. Many of the new dating methods
used by Finkelstein and others to undermine the historicity of certain Bible
stories involve seeing the first Israelites as part of the fabric of Middle
Eastern life rather than as a remarkable exception. "The Bible Unearthed"
notes that in the 1970s, archaeologists began to use long-term
anthropological models, which were built by scholars who compared many
cultures to see how civilizations tend to develop along predictable lines.
Certain artifacts -- monumental buildings, administrative correspondence,
royal chronicles and national scripture like the Bible -- are almost always
"a sign of state formation, in which power is centralized in national
institutions like an official cult or monarchy."
That kind of state didn't exist in Jerusalem during David and Solomon's
time, so Finkelstein and Silberman argue that the Old Testament must have
been written (though perhaps "compiled" is a more accurate term) later. They
peg a king descended from David, Josiah, who ruled over a much more
developed Jerusalem more than 300 years after David, as the one who ordered
its transcription. Josiah, according to "Unearthing the Bible," needed a
national scripture to cement a strictly monotheistic religious orthodoxy and
to promote the idea that only a king of Davidic lineage could reunite the
lost empire. It should come as no surprise, then, that the Old Testament is
still used to forge a national identity for today's Israel, since according
to Finkelstein and Silberman, it was created to do just that in the ancient
world.
The Old Testament is also a story about how special Israel is, singled out
from its neighbors by God's orders. Archaeology used to mimic that
separatism. "For a long time the archaeology of Israel was studied in
isolation," says Marcus. "Israel Finkelstein sees modern and ancient Israel
as part of the broader Middle East I consider him part of an emerging common
ground. He's an archaeologist starting to look at the past in a different
way." Finkelstein, when asked about the comparison to the new historians,
replied, "The general atmosphere in this country, and in my generation, is
very different now from that of, say, 20 or 50 years ago. There is a strong
cultural activity going on here, and part of it is a fresh thinking about
the past -- distant and more recent." Techniques like the long-term
anthropological models Finkelstein prizes pull ancient Israel and,
metaphorically, modern Israel, back into the texture of Middle Eastern life,
so it's no wonder they're associated with a new, more pro-peace process
current in Israeli culture.
How those views will weather the current faltering of the process and the
probable election of hard-liner [11]Ariel Sharon is uncertain. The election
of Sharon, who many believe ignited the current intifada when he
provocatively visited the Temple Mount, a site sacred to both Jews and
Muslims (and who is quoted in the pages of the Jan. 29 issue of the New
Yorker saying "the Koran doesn't mention Jerusalem once In the Bible it is
mentioned 676 times"), may reflect a more general retrenchment on the
subject of Israel's symbolic underpinnings. Finkelstein remains unfazed by
his critics: "I am sure that no educated Israeli or American Jew for that
matter, would want me to silence the results of my research. We are an open,
democratic society, and we need to face these things -- both on the distant
past and on the more recent one. In fact, this makes us a stronger society!
And I really don't think -- let me know if I am wrong -- that there is a
committee sitting somewhere in, say, Switzerland, and deciding the fate of
nations according to historical or biblical research."
- - - - - - - - - - - -
About the writer
Laura Miller is an editor of Salon.
--
Assassination is death by natural causes for politicians.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3929
Poetic Justice
>The erased inscription,_P. Septimio Getae
>Nob(ilissimus) Caesari_[_CIL_ 6.1033
>=_ILS_425], appears to have been
>deduced by Bormann (_Bollettino
>d'arte_[1879]: 40), although the same
>formula in Geta's titulature on monuments
>in general (as opposed to on coins) was
>earlier explained by Nibby (_Roma
>antica_[1839], 1.479). [snip]
Thanks for that info.
I'm intrigued by these examples of 'damnatio memoriae' that we can see
today.
And just off-hand do you know of any others in Rome besides this Arch
and the nearby Maxentius statue base, General Stilicon's inscription and
Phocas(?) from the Column of Phocas.
And outside the Forum the Arch of the Argentarii.
Regards, Walter
>Is this the same man that reconstructed
>(using the same method; dowel holes for
>the bronze lettering) the original Geta
>inscription on the Arch of Septimius
>Severus after Caracalla's 'damnatio
>memoriae' on his brother?
..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...
Christopher Ingham
the Cancelleria Reliefs (in the Museo Gregoriano Profano) --
two late-Domitianic marble relief panels conjectured to have
belonged to the Temple of Fortuna Redux, the Divorum, or
the Porta Triumphalis, with the heads of Domitian reworked
to represent Nerva (frieze A) and Vespasian (frieze B).
the triumph panel from a lost arch of Marcus Aurelius (in
the Museo del Palazzo dei Conservatori) -- Marcus' son
Commodus has been chiseled out.
the colossal marble head of Constantine (in the courtyard
of the Palazzo dei Conservatori) -- belonged to a nine-meter,
seated statue in the west apse of the Basilica of Maxentius
/Constantine/Nova, originally with the likeness of Maxentius.
Numerous well-known statues, busts, and reliefs of emperors
are known to have been reworkings of predecessors (and not
always resulting from damnatio memoriae). Many images of
Nero, for instance, were transformed into those of Vespasian,
and most known portraits of Nerva were originally of Domitian.
Official erasure from the public record entailed revisions of
images, inscriptions, documents, and coins. Sometimes
entire monuments were dismantled, such as the Arch of
Nero on the Capitoline, the colossal bronze equestrian statue
of Domitian in the Forum, and many arches which Domitian
had erected to commemorate himself.
The conferment of damnatio memoriae was wholly the
prerogative of the senate, and it is argued that such potential
posthumous action was the only power left to the senate in
the imperial era when dealing with autocratic rulers.
Gradel, I. 2002. _Emperor Worship and Roman Religion_.
286-8.
Kleiner,D.E.E. 1992. _Roman Sculpture_.
Stewart, P. 2001. _Statues in Roman Society: Representa-
tion and Response_.
Varner, E.R., ed. 2000. _From Caligula to Constantine:
Tyranny and Transformation in Roman Portraiture_.
Christopher Ingham
Poetic Justice
>Poetic Justice wrote:
>And just off-hand do you know of any
>others in Rome besides this Arch and the
>nearby Maxentius statue base, General
>Stilicon's inscription and Phocas(?) from
>the Column of Phocas.
>And outside the Forum the Arch of the
>Argentarii. Regards, Walter
>These are some other well-known
>examples:
>the Cancelleria Reliefs (in the Museo
>Gregoriano Profano) -- two
>late-Domitianic marble relief panels
>conjectured to have belonged to the
>Temple of Fortuna Redux, the Divorum, or
>the Porta Triumphalis, with the heads of
>Domitian reworked to represent Nerva
>(frieze A) and Vespasian (frieze B).
>the triumph panel from a lost arch of
>Marcus Aurelius (in the Museo del
>Palazzo dei Conservatori) -- Marcus' son
>Commodus has been chiseled out. [Snip]
Christopher, Thank you very much, it is appreciated.
I've noted them and will check them out on my next visit. Regards,
Walter
zolota
"Enguiring Mind" <enqu...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:homdnfSLAeG...@giganews.com...
>
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit
>
>
> For years I have heard the following claim:
>
> records that the Roman army burned temple, and the fire melted
> the gold in the temple. After the fire was out, the Romans
> discovered that the gold had melted and run down between the
> cracks of the rocks. Therefore, they pulled up all the stones
> to get at the gold.
>
> Is there any archaeological or historical evidence that this
> really happened? Or is it just a story made up because the Bible
> has Jesus predicting "the days will come in which there will not
> be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."
>
> I have searched and searched the web, and can fid no source for
> the above claim. The closest I can find is this from Josephus:
>
> "As he came to Jerusalem in his progress [in returning from
> Antioch to Egypt], and compared the melancholy condition he
> saw it then in, with the ancient glory of the city [compared]
> with the greatness of its present ruins (as well as its
> ancient splendor). He could not but pity the destruction
> of the city.. Yet there was no small quantity of the riches
> that had been in that city still found among the ruins, a
> great deal of which the Romans dug up; but the greatest
> part was discovered by those who were captives [Jewish
> captives were forced by the Roman troops to dig up the
> stones of their own city looking for gold], and so they
> [the Romans] carried it away; I mean the gold and the
> silver, and the rest of that most precious furniture
> which the Jews had, and which the owners had treasured
> up under ground against the uncertainties of war."
>
> ..which isn't quite the same.
>
> Another question that comes to mind is this: If all the
> stones of the temple were torn down, what the heck is that
> wall that the Jews pray against every day?
>
>
The methods for recovering gold from rock today are not much different from
the practices of the Egyptians 6,000 years ago. Methods for recovering gold
from artifacts where the gold was seen as more valuable than the artifact
also date back to the Egyptians. Grave robbers burnt the gold leaf covered
wooden articles to concentrtae the gold. Similar methods were used by the
Christian Church in their rape of the Inca empire in their greed for gold.
If you are going to burn flamable objects for fun and prophet you do it on a
solid surface or on a layer of sand. No Roman worth his salt would waste
time burning the entire temple then digging through rubble to find gold. If
the amount of gold present was significant it would have been dug out of the
wood or stone with knives; only gold leaf on wood with it's low value
justifies torching the article and is physically possible. Any gold that
melted would never have made it to a crack between the rocks as a liquid, it
would have frozen on the spot when it hit the first flat rock. The story
told to you is physically and historically laughable.
Zolota
when the artifacts could be placed in a pile and burned. . Besides, molten
gold would have ,fit
Jean
zolota a écrit dans le message ...
of "artifacts" to the state have likey (certain) caused more gold
artifacts to be melted down and sold as scrap .
JL
SolomonW
jean....@wanadoo.fr says...
> >solid surface or on a layer of sand. No Roman worth his salt would waste
> >time burning the entire temple then digging through rubble to find gold.
Except the Roman's claim is the temple burning was an accident. It was a
fire that went out of control.
JTEM
J.LyonLayden
"And Exodus never happened and the walls of Jericho did not come a-
tumbling
down. "
I can't see how a bunch of Jews leaving Egypt and being hunter
gatherers for a while is going to leave significant evidence.
And since Jericho's walls were rebuilt several times in the last
10,000 years I don't see how this journalist could know sans doubt
that they never fell. Especially when we aren't absolutely sure that
the archeological Jericho is even the same Jericho as the one in the
Bible. It moved once, couldn't it have moved twice or thrice?
Just an attempt to disprove, nothing more.
It's still significant that Jericho was one of the first cities in the
beginnings of civilization, therefore lending credibility to the Bible
for naming and describing a city with walls as one of the earliest
cities that actually existed at the beginnings of civilization.
JTEM
> "And Exodus never happened and the walls of Jericho did
> not come a-tumbling down. "
Exodus never happened, correct, but the walls surrounding
what you call "Jericho" did come down many, many, times,
but not at a time or in a manner that could be squeezed
into the bible.
Another thing that never happened: The conquest of the
Inca's by the Catholic church.
Matt Giwer
> On Mar 16, 9:20�am, JTEM <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> �"zolota" <zolo...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> � � � [---snip---]
>> Oh, look, another moron with an agenda...
> "And Exodus never happened and the walls of Jericho did not come a-
> tumbling
> down. "
> I can't see how a bunch of Jews leaving Egypt and being hunter
> gatherers for a while is going to leave significant evidence.
> And since Jericho's walls were rebuilt several times in the last
> 10,000 years I don't see how this journalist could know sans doubt
> that they never fell. Especially when we aren't absolutely sure that
> the archeological Jericho is even the same Jericho as the one in the
> Bible. It moved once, couldn't it have moved twice or thrice?
What does that have to do with believing a book of fairytales? The simplest way
is simply to read about Egypt in Genesis and Exodus and then explain how they
get it all wrong about Egypt.
As for leaving evidence, unless the number of people involved were so few as to
be unremarkable there would be evidence. And as Egypt ruled from the Nile to the
Euphrates from before Abraham was born until after Solomon died (according to
all the incompatible bible datings) it is extremely difficult to explain how
believers can muster enough suspension of disbelief to take it seriously.
> Just an attempt to disprove, nothing more.
> It's still significant that Jericho was one of the first cities in the
> beginnings of civilization, therefore lending credibility to the Bible
> for naming and describing a city with walls as one of the earliest
> cities that actually existed at the beginnings of civilization.
As there is no physical evidence for anything in the OT and no sign of the
religion until the 2nd c. BC while there is mention of the Palestinians by that
name in the 5th c. BC there is no reason to assume it is not an invented
religion like Islam, Mormonism and Scientology.
--
Surviving anything, even a holocaust, cannot elevate a devil to sainthood.
Mere survival does not grant moral authority.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3946
Martin Edwards
http://www.justwilliam.co.uk/banners-buttons/williambanner.gif
--
Corporate society looks after everything. All it asks of anyone, all it
has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management
decisions. -From “Rollerball”
JTEM
zolota
left?
.
"SolomonW" <Solo...@DONTBOTHER.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2247bb55564acceb9896a5@news...
SolomonW
> The Romans looted the temple before that happened, so what gold would be
> left?
>
It was burnt during the fighting. What was left was looted!
You should read at least one book on the subject before coming here to
discuss it.
jkr...@outlook.com
SolomonW
> Jesus was saying that the Temple buildings would be torn down. The Wailing Wall was just an outer wall surrounding the Temple. So Jesus'prophecy did come true.