Kris's Archaeology Blog - Vinland
crunch
"The early over-reliance on the Viking sagas as fact led later
scholars to ditch the sagas as completely untrustworthy; some
dismissed the discoverer Leif Ericson as a literary myth. But Wallace
bravely cracked open the sagas again, and combining archaeological
evidence and historical records has discovered some fairly interesting
things, particularly about what Vinland might have meant and whether
L'Anse aux Meadows can be tied to a specific place named in the
Vinland Sagas."
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Comments, please.
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David Christainsen
Eric Stevens
Be very careful before accepting anything written by Birgitta Wallace
about the early presence of the norse in North America.
Eric Stevens
crunch
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:27:52 -0800 (PST), crunch
>
Thank-you for the warning; then, Kris Hirst is wrong
in her opinion of Wallace as reliable. I am surprised.
If you care to amplify, please do.
David Christainsen
chazwin
Comments are empty speculation - what we need is EVIDENCE.
>
> -----
>
> David Christainsen
David B.
We've GOT evidence, in particular the distribution of jasper
fire-strikers among the L'Anse Aux Meadows buildings, some from an
Icelandic source, some from a Greenland source, one from a south-east
Newfoundland source, pretty much perfectly confirming major points of
the sagas. The chances of L'Anse Aux Meadows not being the main
expedition base described in the sagas are close to nil. There's
undoubtedly a lot of fiction in the sagas, but only because oral
storytellers were trying to fit together a bunch of story elements and
didn't quite know how (incidentally, bear in mind that the Norse had a
lot of experience in oral transmission of historical information, and
the differences which can be seen between the two Vinland sagas, after
only two or three centuries, show just how much care needs to be
exercised when interpreting any traditional material).
David B.
Eric Stevens
Michael Zalar published an eye-opening review of the 'errors' in her
contribution to the Smithsonian publication "Vikings - The North
Atlantic Saga". Unfortunately it seems to have vanished from the web.
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
According to Kent S.E. Budden there is evidence of a Norse settlement
in the vicinity of Sops Arm. Unfortunately this has not been subject
to professional archaeological examination and amateur examination is
forbidden.
Eric Stevens
crunch
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:27:52 -0800 (PST), crunch
>
You are knowledgeable and I am very interested in
your information.
David Christainsen
Peter Alaca
slobber, slobber
Eric Stevens
See http://www.thewesternstar.com/index.cfm?sid=45360&sc=23
http://etimage.com/sopsarm/Vikings%20in%20Sops%20Arm,udg.2.pdf
and
http://www.amazon.com/Vinland-Discovery-Unfinished-Kent-Budden/dp/0973669101
Unfortunately Kent Budden recently died of cancer.
http://www.thewesternstar.com/index.cfm?sid=184947&sc=488
Eric Stevens
crunch
>
> Unfortunately Kent Budden recently died of cancer.http://www.thewesternstar.com/index.cfm?sid=184947&sc=488
Eric,
To me Kent Budden seems to have a reasonable
explanation. As usual, more resources need to
be thrown at the problem so that more archaeological
consensus may be built.
Thanks for the interesting links!
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David Christainsen
chazwin
> chazwin wrote:
> > On Nov 22, 7:27 pm, crunch <pchristain...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>http://archaeology.about.com/b/2009/11/22/vinland.htm
>
> >> "The early over-reliance on the Viking sagas as fact led later
> >> scholars to ditch the sagas as completely untrustworthy; some
> >> dismissed the discoverer Leif Ericson as a literary myth. But Wallace
> >> bravely cracked open the sagas again, and combining archaeological
> >> evidence and historical records has discovered some fairly interesting
> >> things, particularly about what Vinland might have meant and whether
> >> L'Anse aux Meadows can be tied to a specific place named in the
> >> Vinland Sagas."
>
> >> -----
>
> >> Comments, please.
>
> > Comments are empty speculation - what we need is EVIDENCE.
>
> We've GOT evidence, in particular the distribution of jasper
> fire-strikers among the L'Anse Aux Meadows buildings
You mean like the ones the Indians used.
, some from an
> Icelandic source, some from a Greenland source, one from a south-east
> Newfoundland source, pretty much perfectly confirming major points of
> the sagas.
What 'major points' exactly?
The chances of L'Anse Aux Meadows not being the main
> expedition base described in the sagas are close to nil. There's
> undoubtedly a lot of fiction in the sagas, but only because oral
> storytellers were trying to fit together a bunch of story elements and
> didn't quite know how (incidentally, bear in mind that the Norse had a
> lot of experience in oral transmission of historical information, and
> the differences which can be seen between the two Vinland sagas, after
> only two or three centuries, show just how much care needs to be
> exercised when interpreting any traditional material).
>
> David B.
Lets face it there is no unambiguous evidence such as a Viking
inscription, ship, or any Viking material culture at all.
chazwin
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:27:52 -0800 (PST), crunch
>
Yeah - and I caught a fish that was this.... THIS..... T H I
S B I G. But it got away.
crunch
>
> - Show quoted text -
Have you overlooked this? What would make it
unambiguous in your opinion? -
Sop’s Arm saga
http://www.thewesternstar.com/index.cfm?sid=45360&sc=23
"Among the items Budden claims are Viking artifacts he has found in
Sop’s Arm are a runestone/sunstone — a large stone he claims has
Viking language on it and which may have doubled as a compass. Budden
claims the stone contains a map of the area and the initials TK, which
he has interpreted as belonging to Thorfinn Karlsefni, one of the
Norse leaders said to have visited Newfoundland 1,000 years ago.
Other items include a boat builder’s kit that contains knives, axes,
adzes, tongs, drills and other tools.
He also has a piece of bone alleged to have a Viking inscription on
it."
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David Christainsen
Sir David
the saga:
> He also has a piece of bone alleged to have a Viking
Please keep your personal nordnik sexual fantasies stowed in your
longboat, Hobbuwiekingn.
Eric Stevens
Well, this one is still here.
Eric Stevens
David B.
>>> Comments are empty speculation - what we need is EVIDENCE.
>> We've GOT evidence, in particular the distribution of jasper
>> fire-strikers among the L'Anse Aux Meadows buildings
>
> You mean like the ones the Indians used.
Well actually, I mean the whole sentence, including this next bit:
>> , some from an
>> Icelandic source, some from a Greenland source, one from a south-east
>> Newfoundland source, pretty much perfectly confirming major points of
>> the sagas.
>
> What 'major points' exactly?
That at least half of the explorers were actually from Iceland, visitors
to Greenland
That the Norse voyagers launched expeditions southwards, exploring the
coast from their long-term base
> Lets face it there is no unambiguous evidence such as a Viking
> inscription, ship, or any Viking material culture at all.
Call that "cultural material" and I might pretty much agree with the
last clause (except that the word "Viking" is dubious in this context).
However, the admittedly mundane artefacts found do match known Norse
designs. Also, radiocarbon dates are pretty much spot on for the saga
expeditions, and the evidence of iron-working (as well as the jasper
sources mentioned above) points forcefully to European occupants.
David B.
chazwin
>
> "Among the items Budden claims are Viking artifacts he has found in
> Sop’s Arm are a runestone/sunstone — a large stone he claims has
> Viking language on it and which may have doubled as a compass. Budden
> claims the stone contains a map of the area and the initials TK, which
> he has interpreted as belonging to Thorfinn Karlsefni, one of the
> Norse leaders said to have visited Newfoundland 1,000 years ago.
>
> Other items include a boat builder’s kit that contains knives, axes,
> adzes, tongs, drills and other tools.
>
> He also has a piece of bone alleged to have a Viking inscription on
> it."
>
> -----
>
> David Christainsen
No I did not overlook that lump of stone.
chazwin
> chazwin wrote:
> > On Nov 23, 7:39 pm, "David B." <tronospamc...@tesco.net> wrote:
> >> chazwin wrote:
> >>> Comments are empty speculation - what we need is EVIDENCE.
> >> We've GOT evidence, in particular the distribution of jasper
> >> fire-strikers among the L'Anse Aux Meadows buildings
>
> > You mean like the ones the Indians used.
>
> Well actually, I mean the whole sentence, including this next bit:
>
> >> , some from an
> >> Icelandic source, some from a Greenland source, one from a south-east
> >> Newfoundland source, pretty much perfectly confirming major points of
> >> the sagas.
>
> > What 'major points' exactly?
>
> That at least half of the explorers were actually from Iceland, visitors
> to Greenland
There is noting new in this.
>
> That the Norse voyagers launched expeditions southwards, exploring the
> coast from their long-term base
That is what the Sagas say - so what?
>
> > Lets face it there is no unambiguous evidence such as a Viking
> > inscription, ship, or any Viking material culture at all.
>
> Call that "cultural material" and I might pretty much agree with the
> last clause (except that the word "Viking" is dubious in this context).
Not really, it is meant as a catch all terms for all ethnically
Scandinavian people.
> However, the admittedly mundane artefacts found do match known Norse
> designs. Also, radiocarbon dates are pretty much spot on for the saga
> expeditions, and the evidence of iron-working (as well as the jasper
> sources mentioned above) points forcefully to European occupants.
What 'mundane artefacts" are these.
The point is that it is highly likely that the Norse discovered
America. It is abundantly obvious that they were in Greenland until
the 1400s. But there is not evidence that they stayed in America, and
the sagas woul dnot even support that.
>
> David B.
chazwin
You are about as Norse as a horned helmet!
Eric Stevens
I'm not a Wagner fan.
Eric Stevens
David B.
> On Nov 26, 9:58 pm, "David B." <tronospamc...@tesco.net> wrote:
>> chazwin wrote:
>>> On Nov 23, 7:39 pm, "David B." <tronospamc...@tesco.net> wrote:
>>>> pretty much perfectly confirming major points of the sagas.
>>> What 'major points' exactly?
>> That at least half of the explorers were actually from Iceland, visitors
>> to Greenland
>
> There is nothing new in this.
>
>> That the Norse voyagers launched expeditions southwards, exploring the
>> coast from their long-term base
>
> That is what the Sagas say - so what?
Why do you think I wrote "pretty much perfectly confirming major points
of the sagas" above? Traditional narratives are untrustworthy because
they tend to misinterpret the truth- but truth is nevertheless in there,
and archaeology can often help to identify it.
>>> Lets face it there is no unambiguous evidence such as a Viking
>>> inscription, ship, or any Viking material culture at all.
>> Call that "cultural material" and I might pretty much agree with the
>> last clause (except that the word "Viking" is dubious in this context).
>
> Not really, it is meant as a catch all terms for all ethnically
> Scandinavian people.
Not by people who care about what it actually means...
>> However, the admittedly mundane artefacts found do match known Norse
>> designs. Also, radiocarbon dates are pretty much spot on for the saga
>> expeditions, and the evidence of iron-working (as well as the jasper
>> sources mentioned above) points forcefully to European occupants.
>
> What 'mundane artefacts" are these.
Quite a variety, from a bronze pin with a ring at one end to a pine
decorative knob (perhaps from the top of an upright of a chair) to a
barrel top to the remains of the iron smelting furnace.
> The point is that it is highly likely that the Norse discovered
> America. It is abundantly obvious that they were in Greenland until
> the 1400s. But there is not evidence that they stayed in America, and
> the sagas would not even support that.
Absolutely correct; there is no external (or unambiguous internal)
evidence to support the authenticity of the various runestones etc. What
remains very possible is that West-European sailors, known to have been
active in the North Atlantic in the later Middle Ages, may have followed
up the Vinland claims and begun unobtrusively fishing over the Grand
Banks many years before Columbus encouraged the Spanish to try a
different approach to the exploitation of New World resources.
David B.