Confirmation the Philistines were Pelasgian Greeks

[Agamemnon]

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.729879

Archaeologists find first-ever Philistine cemetery in Israel

Cemetery in ancient Ashkelon, dating back 2700-3000 years, proves the
Philistines came from the Aegean, and that in contrast to the
conventional wisdom, they were a peaceful folk.

A huge Philistine cemetery some 3000-years-old has been found in the
Mediterranean seaport of Ashkelon. The manner of the burials proves, for
the first time, that the Philistines had to have come from the Aegean
Sea region, and that they had very close ties with the Phoenician world.

“Ninety-nine percent of the chapters and articles written about
Philistine burial customs should be revised or ignored now that we have
the first and only Philistine cemetery,” says Lawrence E. Stager, Dorot
Professor of the Archaeology of Israel, Emeritus, at Harvard University.

The cemetery was found just outside the city walls of Tel Ashkelon, one
of the Philistines' five primary cities in ancient Israel.

The cemetery was found to have more then 150 individual burials dating
from the 11th to 8th century BCE. The undisturbed graves have shed fresh
light on a mystery bedeviling archaeologists for decades: the
Philistines' real origins.
US anthropologist and pathologist, Sherry Fox shows a skull discovered
at the excavation site of the first Philistine cemetery ever found in
Ashkelon, on June 28, 2016. Menahem Kahana, AFP

“The basic question we want to know is where this people are from," said
Dr. Sherry Fox, a physical anthropologist who is sampling the bones for
analysis, including for DNA studies, and radiocarbon and biological
distance studies.

How the Philistines lived: Not like Canaanites

The unprecedented discovery of the Philistine cemetery allows the
archaeologists not only to study Philistine burial practices for the
first time, but also to gain insights on Philistine characteristics and
lifestyle. With this discovery, the archaeologists finally have a data
set not on one or two individuals but a whole population, explains
Daniel M. Master, professor of Wheaton College and co-director of the
Leon Levy Expedition. That in turn will enable them to talk about what’s
typical and what’s not typical, he explains.

“This forms a baseline for what 'Philistine' is. We can already say that
the cultural practices we see here are substantially different from the
Canaanites and the highlanders in the east," Master says.
Archaeologists investigating the first unmistakably Philistine burial
ground found in Israel, in Ashkelon. Philippe Bohstrom

The bodies can also provide information about Philistine dietary habits,
lifestyle and morbidity.

One conclusion the archaeologists have already reached is that these
particular individuals seemed to have been spared from strife.

“There is no evidence of any kind of trauma on the bones, from war on
inter-personal violence,” Fox told Haaretz.

Unlike the typical burial practice in the region - family burials or
multiple burials, where the deceased were laid on raised platforms or
benches - the practice in Ashkelon was markedly different.

The deceased were, for the most part, buried in oval pits. Four out of
the 150 were cremated and some other bodies were deposited in ashlar
burial chamber tombs. These are burial practices well known from the
Aegean cultural sphere - but certainly not from the Canaanite one.
Artifacts found with the skeletons in the Philistine graveyard in
Ashkelon are indicative of Philistine culture, not Canaanite. Philippe
Bohstrom

A peaceful lot

Other finds that accompanied the deceased typically included storage
jars, bowls and juglets, and in some rare cases fine jewelry - as well
as arrowheads and spear points.

A hoard of iron arrowheads was discovered by the pelvis of one man, the
amount one would expect to find in a quiver.

“The same arrow was not repeated, but a variety of forms and sizes,
which is interesting," Dr. Adam Aja, assistant director of the
excavation, told Haaretz, and added, “Perhaps the archer could choose
the arrows he needed to penetrate flesh, armor or wood.”

Spear-points and some jewelry were also found next to the Philistine bowman.
Pottery artifacts found in the Philistine graveyard in Ashkelon, dating
back c. 3000 years. Philippe Bohstrom

In other instances, small vials that had contained perfume were found
next to the deceased (probably an olive oil based with different
fragrances) . In two cases the bottle was found at the nostril, pointing
to the nose, presumably so that the deceased could smell perfume
throughout eternity.

In addition to the 150 individual pit graves found at the cemetery, six
burial chambers with multiple bodies were found (when the bodies were
found at all). A magnificent rectangular burial chamber was discovered
inside the cemetery, built with perfectly hewn sandstones. But the
large stone door that once stood at its entrance evidently could not
hinder grave robbers from looting the tomb of its treasure and its
occupants' skeletal remains.

When the chamber was built and used is anybody’s guess. “The latest
pottery is trash from the 7th century BCE, but the chamber might have
been built and used somewhat earlier,” Master told Haaretz.
The roughly 3000-year old skeletons found in the Philistine graveyard in
Ashkelon have clear hallmarks of Aegean customs, not Canaanite. Philippe
Bohstrom

Linen, papyrus and slaves

Ashkelon became a flourishing trading hub during the Bronze Age because
of its location on the Mediterranean Sea and its proximity to Egypt. It
was through Ashkelon, which was situated just north of Gaza, that Egypt
sold linen and papyrus – and also slaves – to the rest of the ancient world.

Other goods distributed through Ashkelon during the Iron Age (ca.
1185-604 BCE) included wine and textile. There is also evidence of grain
imports from Judah, again attesting to the Philistine city as an
important gateway between the East and the West.

Ashkelon would remain a key trading center up to Crusader times. But it
was destroyed by the Mamluk sultan Baibars in 1270 CE, a blow from which
it never recovered.

The Philistines execute a pincer maneuver

According to the Bible, the island of Crete (usually held to be
identical with Caphtor Jeremiah 47:4; Amos 9:7), though not necessarily
the original home of the Philistines, was the place from which they
migrated to the Canaan coast.

That the Philistines were not indigenous to Canaan is indicated by
ceramics, architecture, burial customs, and pottery remains with writing
– in non-Semitic languages (several inscribed stamp handles, as well as
a pottery sherd with a Cypro-Minoan script, all dating to around
1150-1000 BCE).
Pottery sherd with Cypro-Minoan writing, found on the floor of a house
in Philistine Ashkelon, dated to the 11th century BCE. Zev Radovan,
courtesy of the Leon Levy Expedition to Ashkelon

The ancient DNA-analysis may be the final nail in the coffin that
settles the debate of the Philistines origins.

Meanwhile, Lawrence E. Stager of Harvard has long been convinced that
the Philistines came by ship, sailing from the Aegean area, perhaps
Cyprus, to the South Canaan coast, and established themselves there
before their great assault on Egypt.

One of the earliest references to the Philistines is Ramesses III´s
mortuary relief at Medinet Habu. The relief portrays the Battle of the
Delta, the grand struggle between the Egyptians and the Sea Peoples that
took place at the mouth of the Nile during the early 12th century BCE
(1176-75 BCE).

Since the relief depicts oxcarts, chariots and ships, some scholars
assume the Philistines came overland from Anatolia to Egypt. Stager is
skeptical. “There is no way you can come with oxcarts from Anatolia,
down through all the hills," he explains. "It makes much more sense if
they came with ships, loading and offloading these vehicles."

He also points out that the Battle of the Delta was the one known epic
battle between the Egyptians and Philistines or Sea Peoples. There
weren't two. If the Philistines attacked the Egyptians, they would
likely have sent a navy down the Mediterranean - and an army of land
troops, effectively creating a pincer maneuver against Ramesses III,
Stager speculates.

Stager suspects the Philistines had to have been well entrenched in
south Canaan before the Battle of the Delta. Ashkelon would have been
one of the first strategic points the Philistines would have settled,
securing as sort of “bridgehead”, before they launched their armada and
infantry against the Egyptians in the Nile Delta.

“Ramesses III tried to contain them in their five Philistine cities, but
obviously he could not control them or drive them out," says Stager.

Daniel Master differs: “I think Egypt was still in control of the
region, even Philistia, and that the Philistines settled with Egyptian
acquiescence. This is become a broader consensus over the last few
years due to work at Megiddo, Jaffa, and Ashkelon itself, where we find
many Egyptian objects from this period,” he told Haaretz.

At this point, we do not know if the Egyptians managed to subdue the
Philistines. But we do know that the Philistines did eventually have
their comeuppance.

In early December 604 BCE, the Babylonians swept through Philistia,
destroying the cities and exiling its inhabitants. The Babylonian ruler
Nebuchadnezzar torched Philistia in early December 604 BCE, yet within
the massive destruction, architecture, ceramics and even foods remained,
providing the archaeologists with a snapshot of life in a Philistine
city during the 7th century BCE.

2016 marks the final season of the Leon Levy Expedition to Ashkelon,
where they have been excavating since 1985.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.729879

[Trader]

>
Not really, likely the other way round. Recalling the greek alphabet
derived from their's and at 3000 bc there was no greece but a series of
independent tribes.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/features/world/asia/lebanon/phoenicians-text.html

Acting as cultural middlemen, the Phoenicians disseminated ideas, myths,
and knowledge from the powerful Assyrian and Babylonian worlds in what is
now Syria and Iraq to their contacts in the Aegean. Those ideas helped
spark a cultural revival in Greece, one which led to the Greeks' Golden Age
and hence the birth of Western civilization.

Phoenician's Reborn through the DNA "Alphabet,"

http://phoenicia.org/genetics.html

in Greece, one which led to the Greeks' Golden Age and hence the birth of
Western civilization.

>http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.729879
>
>Archaeologists find first-ever Philistine cemetery in Israel
>
>Cemetery in ancient Ashkelon, dating back 2700-3000 years, proves the
>Philistines came from the Aegean, and that in contrast to the
>conventional wisdom, they were a peaceful folk.
>
>A huge Philistine cemetery some 3000-years-old has been found in the
>Mediterranean seaport of Ashkelon. The manner of the burials proves, for
>the first time, that the Philistines had to have come from the Aegean
>Sea region, and that they had very close ties with the Phoenician world.
>

>āNinety-nine percent of the chapters and articles written about

>Philistine burial customs should be revised or ignored now that we have

>the first and only Philistine cemetery,ā says Lawrence E. Stager, Dorot

>Professor of the Archaeology of Israel, Emeritus, at Harvard University.
>
>The cemetery was found just outside the city walls of Tel Ashkelon, one
>of the Philistines' five primary cities in ancient Israel.
>
>The cemetery was found to have more then 150 individual burials dating
>from the 11th to 8th century BCE. The undisturbed graves have shed fresh
>light on a mystery bedeviling archaeologists for decades: the
>Philistines' real origins.
>US anthropologist and pathologist, Sherry Fox shows a skull discovered
>at the excavation site of the first Philistine cemetery ever found in
>Ashkelon, on June 28, 2016. Menahem Kahana, AFP
>

>āThe basic question we want to know is where this people are from," said

>Dr. Sherry Fox, a physical anthropologist who is sampling the bones for
>analysis, including for DNA studies, and radiocarbon and biological
>distance studies.
>
>How the Philistines lived: Not like Canaanites
>
>The unprecedented discovery of the Philistine cemetery allows the
>archaeologists not only to study Philistine burial practices for the
>first time, but also to gain insights on Philistine characteristics and
>lifestyle. With this discovery, the archaeologists finally have a data
>set not on one or two individuals but a whole population, explains
>Daniel M. Master, professor of Wheaton College and co-director of the

>Leon Levy Expedition. That in turn will enable them to talk about whatās
>typical and whatās not typical, he explains.
>
>āThis forms a baseline for what 'Philistine' is. We can already say that

>the cultural practices we see here are substantially different from the
>Canaanites and the highlanders in the east," Master says.
>Archaeologists investigating the first unmistakably Philistine burial
>ground found in Israel, in Ashkelon. Philippe Bohstrom
>
>The bodies can also provide information about Philistine dietary habits,
>lifestyle and morbidity.
>
>One conclusion the archaeologists have already reached is that these
>particular individuals seemed to have been spared from strife.
>

>āThere is no evidence of any kind of trauma on the bones, from war on
>inter-personal violence,ā Fox told Haaretz.

>
>Unlike the typical burial practice in the region - family burials or
>multiple burials, where the deceased were laid on raised platforms or
>benches - the practice in Ashkelon was markedly different.
>
>The deceased were, for the most part, buried in oval pits. Four out of
>the 150 were cremated and some other bodies were deposited in ashlar
>burial chamber tombs. These are burial practices well known from the
>Aegean cultural sphere - but certainly not from the Canaanite one.
>Artifacts found with the skeletons in the Philistine graveyard in
>Ashkelon are indicative of Philistine culture, not Canaanite. Philippe
>Bohstrom
>
>A peaceful lot
>
>Other finds that accompanied the deceased typically included storage
>jars, bowls and juglets, and in some rare cases fine jewelry - as well
>as arrowheads and spear points.
>
>A hoard of iron arrowheads was discovered by the pelvis of one man, the
>amount one would expect to find in a quiver.
>

>āThe same arrow was not repeated, but a variety of forms and sizes,

>which is interesting," Dr. Adam Aja, assistant director of the

>excavation, told Haaretz, and added, āPerhaps the archer could choose
>the arrows he needed to penetrate flesh, armor or wood.ā

>
>Spear-points and some jewelry were also found next to the Philistine bowman.
>Pottery artifacts found in the Philistine graveyard in Ashkelon, dating
>back c. 3000 years. Philippe Bohstrom
>
>In other instances, small vials that had contained perfume were found
>next to the deceased (probably an olive oil based with different
>fragrances) . In two cases the bottle was found at the nostril, pointing
>to the nose, presumably so that the deceased could smell perfume
>throughout eternity.
>
>In addition to the 150 individual pit graves found at the cemetery, six
>burial chambers with multiple bodies were found (when the bodies were
>found at all). A magnificent rectangular burial chamber was discovered
>inside the cemetery, built with perfectly hewn sandstones. But the
>large stone door that once stood at its entrance evidently could not
>hinder grave robbers from looting the tomb of its treasure and its
>occupants' skeletal remains.
>

>When the chamber was built and used is anybodyās guess. āThe latest

>pottery is trash from the 7th century BCE, but the chamber might have

>been built and used somewhat earlier,ā Master told Haaretz.

>The roughly 3000-year old skeletons found in the Philistine graveyard in
>Ashkelon have clear hallmarks of Aegean customs, not Canaanite. Philippe
>Bohstrom
>
>Linen, papyrus and slaves
>
>Ashkelon became a flourishing trading hub during the Bronze Age because
>of its location on the Mediterranean Sea and its proximity to Egypt. It
>was through Ashkelon, which was situated just north of Gaza, that Egypt

>sold linen and papyrus ā and also slaves ā to the rest of the ancient world.

>
>Other goods distributed through Ashkelon during the Iron Age (ca.
>1185-604 BCE) included wine and textile. There is also evidence of grain
>imports from Judah, again attesting to the Philistine city as an
>important gateway between the East and the West.
>
>Ashkelon would remain a key trading center up to Crusader times. But it
>was destroyed by the Mamluk sultan Baibars in 1270 CE, a blow from which
>it never recovered.
>
>The Philistines execute a pincer maneuver
>
>According to the Bible, the island of Crete (usually held to be
>identical with Caphtor Jeremiah 47:4; Amos 9:7), though not necessarily
>the original home of the Philistines, was the place from which they
>migrated to the Canaan coast.
>
>That the Philistines were not indigenous to Canaan is indicated by
>ceramics, architecture, burial customs, and pottery remains with writing

>ā in non-Semitic languages (several inscribed stamp handles, as well as

>a pottery sherd with a Cypro-Minoan script, all dating to around
>1150-1000 BCE).
>Pottery sherd with Cypro-Minoan writing, found on the floor of a house
>in Philistine Ashkelon, dated to the 11th century BCE. Zev Radovan,
>courtesy of the Leon Levy Expedition to Ashkelon
>
>The ancient DNA-analysis may be the final nail in the coffin that
>settles the debate of the Philistines origins.
>
>Meanwhile, Lawrence E. Stager of Harvard has long been convinced that
>the Philistines came by ship, sailing from the Aegean area, perhaps
>Cyprus, to the South Canaan coast, and established themselves there
>before their great assault on Egypt.
>

>One of the earliest references to the Philistines is Ramesses IIIĀ´s

>mortuary relief at Medinet Habu. The relief portrays the Battle of the
>Delta, the grand struggle between the Egyptians and the Sea Peoples that
>took place at the mouth of the Nile during the early 12th century BCE
>(1176-75 BCE).
>
>Since the relief depicts oxcarts, chariots and ships, some scholars
>assume the Philistines came overland from Anatolia to Egypt. Stager is

>skeptical. āThere is no way you can come with oxcarts from Anatolia,

>down through all the hills," he explains. "It makes much more sense if
>they came with ships, loading and offloading these vehicles."
>
>He also points out that the Battle of the Delta was the one known epic
>battle between the Egyptians and Philistines or Sea Peoples. There
>weren't two. If the Philistines attacked the Egyptians, they would
>likely have sent a navy down the Mediterranean - and an army of land
>troops, effectively creating a pincer maneuver against Ramesses III,
>Stager speculates.
>
>Stager suspects the Philistines had to have been well entrenched in
>south Canaan before the Battle of the Delta. Ashkelon would have been
>one of the first strategic points the Philistines would have settled,

>securing as sort of ābridgeheadā, before they launched their armada and

>infantry against the Egyptians in the Nile Delta.
>

>āRamesses III tried to contain them in their five Philistine cities, but

>obviously he could not control them or drive them out," says Stager.
>

>Daniel Master differs: āI think Egypt was still in control of the

>region, even Philistia, and that the Philistines settled with Egyptian
>acquiescence. This is become a broader consensus over the last few
>years due to work at Megiddo, Jaffa, and Ashkelon itself, where we find

>many Egyptian objects from this period,ā he told Haaretz.

[Agamemnon]

On 11/07/2016 14:49, Trader wrote:
>>
> Not really, likely the other way round. Recalling the greek alphabet
> derived from their's and at 3000 bc there was no greece but a series of
> independent tribes.
>

Where does the article say 3000 BC? It says dating back 3000 years. That
places it at the time of the Trojan War when the Greeks including
Pelasgians from Arcadia invaded Egypt and Syria and colonised Cyprus
under the leadership of Menelaus, Teucer and Agapanor according to their
own accounts and corroborated by the inscription and mural of Ramses III.

> http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/features/world/asia/lebanon/phoenicians-text.html
>
> Acting as cultural middlemen, the Phoenicians disseminated ideas, myths,
> and knowledge from the powerful Assyrian and Babylonian worlds in what is
> now Syria and Iraq to their contacts in the Aegean. Those ideas helped
> spark a cultural revival in Greece, one which led to the Greeks' Golden Age
> and hence the birth of Western civilization.

Pure Fantasy!

There is no archaeological or historical corroboration of this whatsoever.

>
> Phoenician's Reborn through the DNA "Alphabet,"
>
> http://phoenicia.org/genetics.html
>
> in Greece, one which led to the Greeks' Golden Age and hence the birth of
> Western civilization.

More fantasy. The burial ground shows no signs on Phoenician habitation
or burial practices whereas what it does show is that the burials and
pottery and even writing styles were all from the Aegean and Cyprus.

>
>> http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.729879
>>
>> Archaeologists find first-ever Philistine cemetery in Israel
>>
>> Cemetery in ancient Ashkelon, dating back 2700-3000 years, proves the
>> Philistines came from the Aegean, and that in contrast to the
>> conventional wisdom, they were a peaceful folk.
>>
>> A huge Philistine cemetery some 3000-years-old has been found in the
>> Mediterranean seaport of Ashkelon. The manner of the burials proves, for
>> the first time, that the Philistines had to have come from the Aegean
>> Sea region, and that they had very close ties with the Phoenician world.
>>

>> âNinety-nine percent of the chapters and articles written about

>> Philistine burial customs should be revised or ignored now that we have

>> the first and only Philistine cemetery,â says Lawrence E. Stager, Dorot

>> Professor of the Archaeology of Israel, Emeritus, at Harvard University.
>>
>> The cemetery was found just outside the city walls of Tel Ashkelon, one
>> of the Philistines' five primary cities in ancient Israel.
>>
>> The cemetery was found to have more then 150 individual burials dating
>>from the 11th to 8th century BCE. The undisturbed graves have shed fresh
>> light on a mystery bedeviling archaeologists for decades: the
>> Philistines' real origins.
>> US anthropologist and pathologist, Sherry Fox shows a skull discovered
>> at the excavation site of the first Philistine cemetery ever found in
>> Ashkelon, on June 28, 2016. Menahem Kahana, AFP
>>

>> âThe basic question we want to know is where this people are from," said

>> Dr. Sherry Fox, a physical anthropologist who is sampling the bones for
>> analysis, including for DNA studies, and radiocarbon and biological
>> distance studies.
>>
>> How the Philistines lived: Not like Canaanites
>>
>> The unprecedented discovery of the Philistine cemetery allows the
>> archaeologists not only to study Philistine burial practices for the
>> first time, but also to gain insights on Philistine characteristics and
>> lifestyle. With this discovery, the archaeologists finally have a data
>> set not on one or two individuals but a whole population, explains
>> Daniel M. Master, professor of Wheaton College and co-director of the

>> Leon Levy Expedition. That in turn will enable them to talk about whatâs
>> typical and whatâs not typical, he explains.
>>
>> âThis forms a baseline for what 'Philistine' is. We can already say that

>> the cultural practices we see here are substantially different from the
>> Canaanites and the highlanders in the east," Master says.
>> Archaeologists investigating the first unmistakably Philistine burial
>> ground found in Israel, in Ashkelon. Philippe Bohstrom
>>
>> The bodies can also provide information about Philistine dietary habits,
>> lifestyle and morbidity.
>>
>> One conclusion the archaeologists have already reached is that these
>> particular individuals seemed to have been spared from strife.
>>

>> âThere is no evidence of any kind of trauma on the bones, from war on
>> inter-personal violence,â Fox told Haaretz.

>>
>> Unlike the typical burial practice in the region - family burials or
>> multiple burials, where the deceased were laid on raised platforms or
>> benches - the practice in Ashkelon was markedly different.
>>
>> The deceased were, for the most part, buried in oval pits. Four out of
>> the 150 were cremated and some other bodies were deposited in ashlar
>> burial chamber tombs. These are burial practices well known from the
>> Aegean cultural sphere - but certainly not from the Canaanite one.
>> Artifacts found with the skeletons in the Philistine graveyard in
>> Ashkelon are indicative of Philistine culture, not Canaanite. Philippe
>> Bohstrom
>>
>> A peaceful lot
>>
>> Other finds that accompanied the deceased typically included storage
>> jars, bowls and juglets, and in some rare cases fine jewelry - as well
>> as arrowheads and spear points.
>>
>> A hoard of iron arrowheads was discovered by the pelvis of one man, the
>> amount one would expect to find in a quiver.
>>

>> âThe same arrow was not repeated, but a variety of forms and sizes,

>> which is interesting," Dr. Adam Aja, assistant director of the

>> excavation, told Haaretz, and added, âPerhaps the archer could choose
>> the arrows he needed to penetrate flesh, armor or wood.â

>>
>> Spear-points and some jewelry were also found next to the Philistine bowman.
>> Pottery artifacts found in the Philistine graveyard in Ashkelon, dating
>> back c. 3000 years. Philippe Bohstrom
>>
>> In other instances, small vials that had contained perfume were found
>> next to the deceased (probably an olive oil based with different
>> fragrances) . In two cases the bottle was found at the nostril, pointing
>> to the nose, presumably so that the deceased could smell perfume
>> throughout eternity.
>>
>> In addition to the 150 individual pit graves found at the cemetery, six
>> burial chambers with multiple bodies were found (when the bodies were
>> found at all). A magnificent rectangular burial chamber was discovered
>> inside the cemetery, built with perfectly hewn sandstones. But the
>> large stone door that once stood at its entrance evidently could not
>> hinder grave robbers from looting the tomb of its treasure and its
>> occupants' skeletal remains.
>>

>> When the chamber was built and used is anybodyâs guess. âThe latest

>> pottery is trash from the 7th century BCE, but the chamber might have

>> been built and used somewhat earlier,â Master told Haaretz.

>> The roughly 3000-year old skeletons found in the Philistine graveyard in
>> Ashkelon have clear hallmarks of Aegean customs, not Canaanite. Philippe
>> Bohstrom
>>
>> Linen, papyrus and slaves
>>
>> Ashkelon became a flourishing trading hub during the Bronze Age because
>> of its location on the Mediterranean Sea and its proximity to Egypt. It
>> was through Ashkelon, which was situated just north of Gaza, that Egypt

>> sold linen and papyrus â and also slaves â to the rest of the ancient world.

>>
>> Other goods distributed through Ashkelon during the Iron Age (ca.
>> 1185-604 BCE) included wine and textile. There is also evidence of grain
>> imports from Judah, again attesting to the Philistine city as an
>> important gateway between the East and the West.
>>
>> Ashkelon would remain a key trading center up to Crusader times. But it
>> was destroyed by the Mamluk sultan Baibars in 1270 CE, a blow from which
>> it never recovered.
>>
>> The Philistines execute a pincer maneuver
>>
>> According to the Bible, the island of Crete (usually held to be
>> identical with Caphtor Jeremiah 47:4; Amos 9:7), though not necessarily
>> the original home of the Philistines, was the place from which they
>> migrated to the Canaan coast.
>>
>> That the Philistines were not indigenous to Canaan is indicated by
>> ceramics, architecture, burial customs, and pottery remains with writing

>> â in non-Semitic languages (several inscribed stamp handles, as well as

>> a pottery sherd with a Cypro-Minoan script, all dating to around
>> 1150-1000 BCE).
>> Pottery sherd with Cypro-Minoan writing, found on the floor of a house
>> in Philistine Ashkelon, dated to the 11th century BCE. Zev Radovan,
>> courtesy of the Leon Levy Expedition to Ashkelon
>>
>> The ancient DNA-analysis may be the final nail in the coffin that
>> settles the debate of the Philistines origins.
>>
>> Meanwhile, Lawrence E. Stager of Harvard has long been convinced that
>> the Philistines came by ship, sailing from the Aegean area, perhaps
>> Cyprus, to the South Canaan coast, and established themselves there
>> before their great assault on Egypt.
>>

>> One of the earliest references to the Philistines is Ramesses III´s

>> mortuary relief at Medinet Habu. The relief portrays the Battle of the
>> Delta, the grand struggle between the Egyptians and the Sea Peoples that
>> took place at the mouth of the Nile during the early 12th century BCE
>> (1176-75 BCE).
>>
>> Since the relief depicts oxcarts, chariots and ships, some scholars
>> assume the Philistines came overland from Anatolia to Egypt. Stager is

>> skeptical. âThere is no way you can come with oxcarts from Anatolia,

>> down through all the hills," he explains. "It makes much more sense if
>> they came with ships, loading and offloading these vehicles."
>>
>> He also points out that the Battle of the Delta was the one known epic
>> battle between the Egyptians and Philistines or Sea Peoples. There
>> weren't two. If the Philistines attacked the Egyptians, they would
>> likely have sent a navy down the Mediterranean - and an army of land
>> troops, effectively creating a pincer maneuver against Ramesses III,
>> Stager speculates.
>>
>> Stager suspects the Philistines had to have been well entrenched in
>> south Canaan before the Battle of the Delta. Ashkelon would have been
>> one of the first strategic points the Philistines would have settled,

>> securing as sort of âbridgeheadâ, before they launched their armada and

>> infantry against the Egyptians in the Nile Delta.
>>

>> âRamesses III tried to contain them in their five Philistine cities, but

>> obviously he could not control them or drive them out," says Stager.
>>

>> Daniel Master differs: âI think Egypt was still in control of the

>> region, even Philistia, and that the Philistines settled with Egyptian
>> acquiescence. This is become a broader consensus over the last few
>> years due to work at Megiddo, Jaffa, and Ashkelon itself, where we find

>> many Egyptian objects from this period,â he told Haaretz.

[Trader]

>> Not really, likely the other way round. Recalling the greek alphabet
>> derived from their's and at 3000 bc there was no greece but a series of
>> independent tribes.
>>
>
>Where does the article say 3000 BC? It says dating back 3000 years. That
>places it at the time of the Trojan War when the Greeks including
>Pelasgians from Arcadia invaded Egypt and Syria and colonised Cyprus
>under the leadership of Menelaus, Teucer and Agapanor according to their
>own accounts and corroborated by the inscription and mural of Ramses III.

My typo, the egyptian rameses inscription is a Phoenician reference.>

3000 years ago the cultures that made up what is now greece were chiefdoms,
a complex tribal form.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/features/world/asia/lebanon/phoenicians-text.html
>>
>> Acting as cultural middlemen, the Phoenicians disseminated ideas, myths,
>> and knowledge from the powerful Assyrian and Babylonian worlds in what is
>> now Syria and Iraq to their contacts in the Aegean. Those ideas helped
>> spark a cultural revival in Greece, one which led to the Greeks' Golden Age
>> and hence the birth of Western civilization.
>
>Pure Fantasy!

Sure to the self glory ethnocentric greeks today. The assessment above is
based on sound archaeololgy, thake it up with the authors.

>
>There is no archaeological or historical corroboration of this whatsoever.

Did you read it? Have you a background in archaeology?

>
>>
>> Phoenician's Reborn through the DNA "Alphabet,"
>>
>> http://phoenicia.org/genetics.html
>>
>> in Greece, one which led to the Greeks' Golden Age and hence the birth of
>> Western civilization.
>
>More fantasy. The burial ground shows no signs on Phoenician habitation
>or burial practices whereas what it does show is that the burials and
>pottery and even writing styles were all from the Aegean and Cyprus.
>

And exactly where were the Phoenicians found but not there and much of the
e. med. sea as well?

>>
>>> http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.729879
>>>
>>> Archaeologists find first-ever Philistine cemetery in Israel
>>>
>>> Cemetery in ancient Ashkelon, dating back 2700-3000 years, proves the
>>> Philistines came from the Aegean, and that in contrast to the
>>> conventional wisdom, they were a peaceful folk.
>>>
>>> A huge Philistine cemetery some 3000-years-old has been found in the
>>> Mediterranean seaport of Ashkelon. The manner of the burials proves, for
>>> the first time, that the Philistines had to have come from the Aegean
>>> Sea region, and that they had very close ties with the Phoenician world.
>>>

>>> āNinety-nine percent of the chapters and articles written about

>>> Philistine burial customs should be revised or ignored now that we have

>>> the first and only Philistine cemetery,ā says Lawrence E. Stager, Dorot

>>> Professor of the Archaeology of Israel, Emeritus, at Harvard University.
>>>
>>> The cemetery was found just outside the city walls of Tel Ashkelon, one
>>> of the Philistines' five primary cities in ancient Israel.
>>>
>>> The cemetery was found to have more then 150 individual burials dating
>>>from the 11th to 8th century BCE. The undisturbed graves have shed fresh
>>> light on a mystery bedeviling archaeologists for decades: the
>>> Philistines' real origins.
>>> US anthropologist and pathologist, Sherry Fox shows a skull discovered
>>> at the excavation site of the first Philistine cemetery ever found in
>>> Ashkelon, on June 28, 2016. Menahem Kahana, AFP
>>>

>>> āThe basic question we want to know is where this people are from," said

>>> Dr. Sherry Fox, a physical anthropologist who is sampling the bones for
>>> analysis, including for DNA studies, and radiocarbon and biological
>>> distance studies.
>>>
>>> How the Philistines lived: Not like Canaanites
>>>
>>> The unprecedented discovery of the Philistine cemetery allows the
>>> archaeologists not only to study Philistine burial practices for the
>>> first time, but also to gain insights on Philistine characteristics and
>>> lifestyle. With this discovery, the archaeologists finally have a data
>>> set not on one or two individuals but a whole population, explains
>>> Daniel M. Master, professor of Wheaton College and co-director of the

>>> Leon Levy Expedition. That in turn will enable them to talk about whatās
>>> typical and whatās not typical, he explains.
>>>

>>> āThis forms a baseline for what 'Philistine' is. We can already say that

>>> the cultural practices we see here are substantially different from the
>>> Canaanites and the highlanders in the east," Master says.
>>> Archaeologists investigating the first unmistakably Philistine burial
>>> ground found in Israel, in Ashkelon. Philippe Bohstrom
>>>
>>> The bodies can also provide information about Philistine dietary habits,
>>> lifestyle and morbidity.
>>>
>>> One conclusion the archaeologists have already reached is that these
>>> particular individuals seemed to have been spared from strife.
>>>

>>> āThere is no evidence of any kind of trauma on the bones, from war on
>>> inter-personal violence,ā Fox told Haaretz.

>>>
>>> Unlike the typical burial practice in the region - family burials or
>>> multiple burials, where the deceased were laid on raised platforms or
>>> benches - the practice in Ashkelon was markedly different.
>>>
>>> The deceased were, for the most part, buried in oval pits. Four out of
>>> the 150 were cremated and some other bodies were deposited in ashlar
>>> burial chamber tombs. These are burial practices well known from the
>>> Aegean cultural sphere - but certainly not from the Canaanite one.
>>> Artifacts found with the skeletons in the Philistine graveyard in
>>> Ashkelon are indicative of Philistine culture, not Canaanite. Philippe
>>> Bohstrom
>>>
>>> A peaceful lot
>>>
>>> Other finds that accompanied the deceased typically included storage
>>> jars, bowls and juglets, and in some rare cases fine jewelry - as well
>>> as arrowheads and spear points.
>>>
>>> A hoard of iron arrowheads was discovered by the pelvis of one man, the
>>> amount one would expect to find in a quiver.
>>>

>>> āThe same arrow was not repeated, but a variety of forms and sizes,

>>> which is interesting," Dr. Adam Aja, assistant director of the

>>> excavation, told Haaretz, and added, āPerhaps the archer could choose
>>> the arrows he needed to penetrate flesh, armor or wood.ā

>>>
>>> Spear-points and some jewelry were also found next to the Philistine bowman.
>>> Pottery artifacts found in the Philistine graveyard in Ashkelon, dating
>>> back c. 3000 years. Philippe Bohstrom
>>>
>>> In other instances, small vials that had contained perfume were found
>>> next to the deceased (probably an olive oil based with different
>>> fragrances) . In two cases the bottle was found at the nostril, pointing
>>> to the nose, presumably so that the deceased could smell perfume
>>> throughout eternity.
>>>
>>> In addition to the 150 individual pit graves found at the cemetery, six
>>> burial chambers with multiple bodies were found (when the bodies were
>>> found at all). A magnificent rectangular burial chamber was discovered
>>> inside the cemetery, built with perfectly hewn sandstones. But the
>>> large stone door that once stood at its entrance evidently could not
>>> hinder grave robbers from looting the tomb of its treasure and its
>>> occupants' skeletal remains.
>>>

>>> When the chamber was built and used is anybodyās guess. āThe latest

>>> pottery is trash from the 7th century BCE, but the chamber might have

>>> been built and used somewhat earlier,ā Master told Haaretz.

>>> The roughly 3000-year old skeletons found in the Philistine graveyard in
>>> Ashkelon have clear hallmarks of Aegean customs, not Canaanite. Philippe
>>> Bohstrom
>>>
>>> Linen, papyrus and slaves
>>>
>>> Ashkelon became a flourishing trading hub during the Bronze Age because
>>> of its location on the Mediterranean Sea and its proximity to Egypt. It
>>> was through Ashkelon, which was situated just north of Gaza, that Egypt

>>> sold linen and papyrus ā and also slaves ā to the rest of the ancient world.

>>>
>>> Other goods distributed through Ashkelon during the Iron Age (ca.
>>> 1185-604 BCE) included wine and textile. There is also evidence of grain
>>> imports from Judah, again attesting to the Philistine city as an
>>> important gateway between the East and the West.
>>>
>>> Ashkelon would remain a key trading center up to Crusader times. But it
>>> was destroyed by the Mamluk sultan Baibars in 1270 CE, a blow from which
>>> it never recovered.
>>>
>>> The Philistines execute a pincer maneuver
>>>
>>> According to the Bible, the island of Crete (usually held to be
>>> identical with Caphtor Jeremiah 47:4; Amos 9:7), though not necessarily
>>> the original home of the Philistines, was the place from which they
>>> migrated to the Canaan coast.
>>>
>>> That the Philistines were not indigenous to Canaan is indicated by
>>> ceramics, architecture, burial customs, and pottery remains with writing

>>> ā in non-Semitic languages (several inscribed stamp handles, as well as

>>> a pottery sherd with a Cypro-Minoan script, all dating to around
>>> 1150-1000 BCE).
>>> Pottery sherd with Cypro-Minoan writing, found on the floor of a house
>>> in Philistine Ashkelon, dated to the 11th century BCE. Zev Radovan,
>>> courtesy of the Leon Levy Expedition to Ashkelon
>>>
>>> The ancient DNA-analysis may be the final nail in the coffin that
>>> settles the debate of the Philistines origins.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, Lawrence E. Stager of Harvard has long been convinced that
>>> the Philistines came by ship, sailing from the Aegean area, perhaps
>>> Cyprus, to the South Canaan coast, and established themselves there
>>> before their great assault on Egypt.
>>>

>>> One of the earliest references to the Philistines is Ramesses IIIĀ´s

>>> mortuary relief at Medinet Habu. The relief portrays the Battle of the
>>> Delta, the grand struggle between the Egyptians and the Sea Peoples that
>>> took place at the mouth of the Nile during the early 12th century BCE
>>> (1176-75 BCE).
>>>
>>> Since the relief depicts oxcarts, chariots and ships, some scholars
>>> assume the Philistines came overland from Anatolia to Egypt. Stager is

>>> skeptical. āThere is no way you can come with oxcarts from Anatolia,

>>> down through all the hills," he explains. "It makes much more sense if
>>> they came with ships, loading and offloading these vehicles."
>>>
>>> He also points out that the Battle of the Delta was the one known epic
>>> battle between the Egyptians and Philistines or Sea Peoples. There
>>> weren't two. If the Philistines attacked the Egyptians, they would
>>> likely have sent a navy down the Mediterranean - and an army of land
>>> troops, effectively creating a pincer maneuver against Ramesses III,
>>> Stager speculates.
>>>
>>> Stager suspects the Philistines had to have been well entrenched in
>>> south Canaan before the Battle of the Delta. Ashkelon would have been
>>> one of the first strategic points the Philistines would have settled,

>>> securing as sort of ābridgeheadā, before they launched their armada and

>>> infantry against the Egyptians in the Nile Delta.
>>>

>>> āRamesses III tried to contain them in their five Philistine cities, but

>>> obviously he could not control them or drive them out," says Stager.
>>>

>>> Daniel Master differs: āI think Egypt was still in control of the

>>> region, even Philistia, and that the Philistines settled with Egyptian
>>> acquiescence. This is become a broader consensus over the last few
>>> years due to work at Megiddo, Jaffa, and Ashkelon itself, where we find

>>> many Egyptian objects from this period,ā he told Haaretz.

[Agamemnon]

On 11/07/2016 21:21, Trader wrote:
>>> Not really, likely the other way round. Recalling the greek alphabet
>>> derived from their's and at 3000 bc there was no greece but a series of
>>> independent tribes.
>>>
>>
>> Where does the article say 3000 BC? It says dating back 3000 years. That
>> places it at the time of the Trojan War when the Greeks including
>> Pelasgians from Arcadia invaded Egypt and Syria and colonised Cyprus
>> under the leadership of Menelaus, Teucer and Agapanor according to their
>> own accounts and corroborated by the inscription and mural of Ramses III.
>
> My typo, the egyptian rameses inscription is a Phoenician reference.>
>
> 3000 years ago the cultures that made up what is now greece were chiefdoms,
> a complex tribal form.

More historically and archaeologically unsubstantiated fallacies.

The inscription of Ramses III refers to Sea Peoples not Phoenicians and
gives them the names of Greek tribes attacking Egypt from a base in
Cyprus, including Achaeans (Akhiyawah), Pelasgians (Pelaset/Philistines)
and Cypriot Teukrians (Djeker), therefore corroborating Teucer,
Agapanor, Menelaus and the aftermath of the Trojan War, and is one of
the obvious sources used by Herodotus in book 2 of his Histories which
describes the same events and by Euripides in his play Helen which
recalls the Greek defeat by the Egyptians.

>
> http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/features/world/asia/lebanon/phoenicians-text.html
>>>
>>> Acting as cultural middlemen, the Phoenicians disseminated ideas, myths,
>>> and knowledge from the powerful Assyrian and Babylonian worlds in what is
>>> now Syria and Iraq to their contacts in the Aegean. Those ideas helped
>>> spark a cultural revival in Greece, one which led to the Greeks' Golden Age
>>> and hence the birth of Western civilization.
>>
>> Pure Fantasy!
>
> Sure to the self glory ethnocentric greeks today. The assessment above is
> based on sound archaeololgy, thake it up with the authors.
> >
>> There is no archaeological or historical corroboration of this whatsoever.
>
> Did you read it? Have you a background in archaeology?

Did you read the article I posted? The archaeology throws the fantasy
you refer to up on it's head. It now firmly proves the Philistines came
from Greece, observed Greek burial customs, used Cypro-Minoan script,
traded in Greek pottery, and clearly distinguishes their customs, diet
and material culture from that of the Phoenicians. The DNA analysis is
also tending in the same direction. The were not Phoenicians but Greeks.

>>
>>>
>>> Phoenician's Reborn through the DNA "Alphabet,"
>>>
>>> http://phoenicia.org/genetics.html
>>>
>>> in Greece, one which led to the Greeks' Golden Age and hence the birth of
>>> Western civilization.
>>
>> More fantasy. The burial ground shows no signs on Phoenician habitation
>> or burial practices whereas what it does show is that the burials and
>> pottery and even writing styles were all from the Aegean and Cyprus.
>>
> And exactly where were the Phoenicians found but not there and much of the
> e. med. sea as well?

There were no Phoenician remains at the site. The material culture was
Greek.

According to the history books Greeks colonised Syria, Lybia and Egypt
since the time of Io the daughter of Inarchus dating to 1650 BC
(Jerome/Syncellus).

Phoenix and Cadmus were not Phoenicians but were of Greek and Egyptian
decent.

What the history states and what the evidence now shows is that Greeks
came to Egypt at the time of the Hyksos, ruled over the Sinai and then
they conquered Cannan and named it Phoenicia after Phoenix. Then they
travelled to Greece with Cadmus taking the Proto-Sinaitc Egyptian script
with them which became Greek script in Greece and Phoenician script in
Cannan.

In the Bible it states that the Philistines came out of Caftorim which
came out of Mizraim, thus indicating the Sinai. Phoenicia was therefore
conquered by the Philistines.

>>>
>>>> http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.729879
>>>>
>>>> Archaeologists find first-ever Philistine cemetery in Israel
>>>>
>>>> Cemetery in ancient Ashkelon, dating back 2700-3000 years, proves the
>>>> Philistines came from the Aegean, and that in contrast to the
>>>> conventional wisdom, they were a peaceful folk.
>>>>
>>>> A huge Philistine cemetery some 3000-years-old has been found in the
>>>> Mediterranean seaport of Ashkelon. The manner of the burials proves, for
>>>> the first time, that the Philistines had to have come from the Aegean
>>>> Sea region, and that they had very close ties with the Phoenician world.
>>>>

>>>> âNinety-nine percent of the chapters and articles written about

>>>> Philistine burial customs should be revised or ignored now that we have

>>>> the first and only Philistine cemetery,â says Lawrence E. Stager, Dorot

>>>> Professor of the Archaeology of Israel, Emeritus, at Harvard University.
>>>>
>>>> The cemetery was found just outside the city walls of Tel Ashkelon, one
>>>> of the Philistines' five primary cities in ancient Israel.
>>>>
>>>> The cemetery was found to have more then 150 individual burials dating
>>> >from the 11th to 8th century BCE. The undisturbed graves have shed fresh
>>>> light on a mystery bedeviling archaeologists for decades: the
>>>> Philistines' real origins.
>>>> US anthropologist and pathologist, Sherry Fox shows a skull discovered
>>>> at the excavation site of the first Philistine cemetery ever found in
>>>> Ashkelon, on June 28, 2016. Menahem Kahana, AFP
>>>>

>>>> âThe basic question we want to know is where this people are from," said

>>>> Dr. Sherry Fox, a physical anthropologist who is sampling the bones for
>>>> analysis, including for DNA studies, and radiocarbon and biological
>>>> distance studies.
>>>>
>>>> How the Philistines lived: Not like Canaanites
>>>>
>>>> The unprecedented discovery of the Philistine cemetery allows the
>>>> archaeologists not only to study Philistine burial practices for the
>>>> first time, but also to gain insights on Philistine characteristics and
>>>> lifestyle. With this discovery, the archaeologists finally have a data
>>>> set not on one or two individuals but a whole population, explains
>>>> Daniel M. Master, professor of Wheaton College and co-director of the

>>>> Leon Levy Expedition. That in turn will enable them to talk about whatâs
>>>> typical and whatâs not typical, he explains.
>>>>

>>>> âThis forms a baseline for what 'Philistine' is. We can already say that

>>>> the cultural practices we see here are substantially different from the
>>>> Canaanites and the highlanders in the east," Master says.
>>>> Archaeologists investigating the first unmistakably Philistine burial
>>>> ground found in Israel, in Ashkelon. Philippe Bohstrom
>>>>
>>>> The bodies can also provide information about Philistine dietary habits,
>>>> lifestyle and morbidity.
>>>>
>>>> One conclusion the archaeologists have already reached is that these
>>>> particular individuals seemed to have been spared from strife.
>>>>

>>>> âThere is no evidence of any kind of trauma on the bones, from war on
>>>> inter-personal violence,â Fox told Haaretz.

>>>>
>>>> Unlike the typical burial practice in the region - family burials or
>>>> multiple burials, where the deceased were laid on raised platforms or
>>>> benches - the practice in Ashkelon was markedly different.
>>>>
>>>> The deceased were, for the most part, buried in oval pits. Four out of
>>>> the 150 were cremated and some other bodies were deposited in ashlar
>>>> burial chamber tombs. These are burial practices well known from the
>>>> Aegean cultural sphere - but certainly not from the Canaanite one.
>>>> Artifacts found with the skeletons in the Philistine graveyard in
>>>> Ashkelon are indicative of Philistine culture, not Canaanite. Philippe
>>>> Bohstrom
>>>>
>>>> A peaceful lot
>>>>
>>>> Other finds that accompanied the deceased typically included storage
>>>> jars, bowls and juglets, and in some rare cases fine jewelry - as well
>>>> as arrowheads and spear points.
>>>>
>>>> A hoard of iron arrowheads was discovered by the pelvis of one man, the
>>>> amount one would expect to find in a quiver.
>>>>

>>>> âThe same arrow was not repeated, but a variety of forms and sizes,

>>>> which is interesting," Dr. Adam Aja, assistant director of the

>>>> excavation, told Haaretz, and added, âPerhaps the archer could choose
>>>> the arrows he needed to penetrate flesh, armor or wood.â

>>>>
>>>> Spear-points and some jewelry were also found next to the Philistine bowman.
>>>> Pottery artifacts found in the Philistine graveyard in Ashkelon, dating
>>>> back c. 3000 years. Philippe Bohstrom
>>>>
>>>> In other instances, small vials that had contained perfume were found
>>>> next to the deceased (probably an olive oil based with different
>>>> fragrances) . In two cases the bottle was found at the nostril, pointing
>>>> to the nose, presumably so that the deceased could smell perfume
>>>> throughout eternity.
>>>>
>>>> In addition to the 150 individual pit graves found at the cemetery, six
>>>> burial chambers with multiple bodies were found (when the bodies were
>>>> found at all). A magnificent rectangular burial chamber was discovered
>>>> inside the cemetery, built with perfectly hewn sandstones. But the
>>>> large stone door that once stood at its entrance evidently could not
>>>> hinder grave robbers from looting the tomb of its treasure and its
>>>> occupants' skeletal remains.
>>>>

>>>> When the chamber was built and used is anybodyâs guess. âThe latest

>>>> pottery is trash from the 7th century BCE, but the chamber might have

>>>> been built and used somewhat earlier,â Master told Haaretz.

>>>> The roughly 3000-year old skeletons found in the Philistine graveyard in
>>>> Ashkelon have clear hallmarks of Aegean customs, not Canaanite. Philippe
>>>> Bohstrom
>>>>
>>>> Linen, papyrus and slaves
>>>>
>>>> Ashkelon became a flourishing trading hub during the Bronze Age because
>>>> of its location on the Mediterranean Sea and its proximity to Egypt. It
>>>> was through Ashkelon, which was situated just north of Gaza, that Egypt

>>>> sold linen and papyrus â and also slaves â to the rest of the ancient world.

>>>>
>>>> Other goods distributed through Ashkelon during the Iron Age (ca.
>>>> 1185-604 BCE) included wine and textile. There is also evidence of grain
>>>> imports from Judah, again attesting to the Philistine city as an
>>>> important gateway between the East and the West.
>>>>
>>>> Ashkelon would remain a key trading center up to Crusader times. But it
>>>> was destroyed by the Mamluk sultan Baibars in 1270 CE, a blow from which
>>>> it never recovered.
>>>>
>>>> The Philistines execute a pincer maneuver
>>>>
>>>> According to the Bible, the island of Crete (usually held to be
>>>> identical with Caphtor Jeremiah 47:4; Amos 9:7), though not necessarily
>>>> the original home of the Philistines, was the place from which they
>>>> migrated to the Canaan coast.
>>>>
>>>> That the Philistines were not indigenous to Canaan is indicated by
>>>> ceramics, architecture, burial customs, and pottery remains with writing

>>>> â in non-Semitic languages (several inscribed stamp handles, as well as

>>>> a pottery sherd with a Cypro-Minoan script, all dating to around
>>>> 1150-1000 BCE).
>>>> Pottery sherd with Cypro-Minoan writing, found on the floor of a house
>>>> in Philistine Ashkelon, dated to the 11th century BCE. Zev Radovan,
>>>> courtesy of the Leon Levy Expedition to Ashkelon
>>>>
>>>> The ancient DNA-analysis may be the final nail in the coffin that
>>>> settles the debate of the Philistines origins.
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, Lawrence E. Stager of Harvard has long been convinced that
>>>> the Philistines came by ship, sailing from the Aegean area, perhaps
>>>> Cyprus, to the South Canaan coast, and established themselves there
>>>> before their great assault on Egypt.
>>>>

>>>> One of the earliest references to the Philistines is Ramesses III´s

>>>> mortuary relief at Medinet Habu. The relief portrays the Battle of the
>>>> Delta, the grand struggle between the Egyptians and the Sea Peoples that
>>>> took place at the mouth of the Nile during the early 12th century BCE
>>>> (1176-75 BCE).
>>>>
>>>> Since the relief depicts oxcarts, chariots and ships, some scholars
>>>> assume the Philistines came overland from Anatolia to Egypt. Stager is

>>>> skeptical. âThere is no way you can come with oxcarts from Anatolia,

>>>> down through all the hills," he explains. "It makes much more sense if
>>>> they came with ships, loading and offloading these vehicles."
>>>>
>>>> He also points out that the Battle of the Delta was the one known epic
>>>> battle between the Egyptians and Philistines or Sea Peoples. There
>>>> weren't two. If the Philistines attacked the Egyptians, they would
>>>> likely have sent a navy down the Mediterranean - and an army of land
>>>> troops, effectively creating a pincer maneuver against Ramesses III,
>>>> Stager speculates.
>>>>
>>>> Stager suspects the Philistines had to have been well entrenched in
>>>> south Canaan before the Battle of the Delta. Ashkelon would have been
>>>> one of the first strategic points the Philistines would have settled,

>>>> securing as sort of âbridgeheadâ, before they launched their armada and

>>>> infantry against the Egyptians in the Nile Delta.
>>>>

>>>> âRamesses III tried to contain them in their five Philistine cities, but

>>>> obviously he could not control them or drive them out," says Stager.
>>>>

>>>> Daniel Master differs: âI think Egypt was still in control of the

>>>> region, even Philistia, and that the Philistines settled with Egyptian
>>>> acquiescence. This is become a broader consensus over the last few
>>>> years due to work at Megiddo, Jaffa, and Ashkelon itself, where we find

>>>> many Egyptian objects from this period,â he told Haaretz.

[Trader]

This thread is getting far too cluttered with unrelated bits, let's start
again.

Our greek poster claimed the nyt article confirmed the origin of the
"philistines as "Pelasgian greeks". That is a problem in itself, from the
wiki entry:

The name Pelasgians (/p@|l dZi@nz, -dZ@nz, -gi@nz/; Greek: Pelasgoi',
Pelasgo singular: Pelasgo'*s, Pelasg ) was used by some ancient writers to
refer to populations that were either the ancestors of the Greeks or
preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive
and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".^[1] In general,
"Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of
the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.^[2]

In other words, anyone hanging around in the e. med. sea before any clearly
greek cultures.

So to that extent it applied to the philistines and any number of other
cultures and groups of the area.

Any claim the site now confirms greeks as philistines is inaccurate. I
reread the nyt articles again and no such claim can be usustained in them.
There is mention which is not new that some think they came from cyprus or
crete or otherwise from sone "western" direction. But it does not say
cultural artifacts and burial customs of greek origin were present. The
inscriptions found were not greek.

What is new about the site is the abundant human remains so genetics can in
future be used to confirm geographical connections. But of course genes
are not ethnic groups.

A few bits of human remains had been found before and the genetics showed
what one would expect, a connection broadly to the e. med. sea populations.
The larger sample will clarify that by far.

[Agamemnon]

On 12/07/2016 16:17, Trader wrote:
> This thread is getting far too cluttered with unrelated bits, let's start
> again.
>
> Our greek poster claimed the nyt article confirmed the origin of the
> "philistines as "Pelasgian greeks". That is a problem in itself, from the
> wiki entry:
>
> The name Pelasgians (/p@|l dZi@nz, -dZ@nz, -gi@nz/; Greek: Pelasgoi',
> Pelasgo singular: Pelasgo'*s, Pelasg ) was used by some ancient writers to
> refer to populations that were either the ancestors of the Greeks or
> preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive
> and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".^[1] In general,

More historically unfounded nonsense.

Herodotus specifically states that the Hellenes (not to be mixed up with
the modern term Greeks) were an offshoot of the Pelagians that became
more successful and more numerous. He also states that Greece (Hellas)
was originally known as Pelasgia. He does not say that all indigenous
peoples of the Greek world were Pelasgians.

> "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of
> the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.^[2]
>

No. Not according to actual historians.

Based on genuine historical accounts and not baseless revisionist
nonsense the Pelagians are ruled out as being indigenous Cretans. Crete
has it's own indigenous inhabitants called Eteocretans.

The Pelasgians were descendants of Inarchus the father of Io and
colonised Arcadia in around 1525 BC from which they colonised Cyprus
after the Trojan War (1181 BC) where they already had links by marriage
between the house of Paphos and that of Arcas. The Pelasgians also
colonised Crete with Tectemus the son of Dorus the son of Hellen leading
an army of Aeolians and Pelagians there in around about 1380-60 BC. All
of these colonisation events are confirmed archaeologically.

Pelasgians were explicitly distinguished from Hellenes. Where as
Herodotus described the Spartans as a Hellenic race, he described the
Athenians as originally Pelasgic before joining the Hellenic body in
1130 BC when they took Aeolian kings upon themselves.

> In other words, anyone hanging around in the e. med. sea before any clearly
> greek cultures.

A basic reading and understanding of Herodotus will show you this
revisionist nonsense is all wrong.

>
> So to that extent it applied to the philistines and any number of other
> cultures and groups of the area.
>
> Any claim the site now confirms greeks as philistines is inaccurate. I

The claim is the other way round. Philistines were Pelasgian Greeks.

> reread the nyt articles again and no such claim can be usustained in them.

Wrong. The article conclusively states that the Philistines came from
the Aegean and there can be no more argument against it now. Their
burial customs, their material culture, their diet, the style of their
buildings and pottery is all from the Aegean. They even used
Cypro-Minoan script for writing.

> There is mention which is not new that some think they came from cyprus or
> crete or otherwise from sone "western" direction. But it does not say
> cultural artifacts and burial customs of greek origin were present. The
> inscriptions found were not greek.

You must be reading a completely different article because the original
article says exactly the opposite.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.729879

"Cemetery in ancient Ashkelon, dating back 2700-3000 years, proves the
Philistines came from the Aegean, and that in contrast to the
conventional wisdom, they were a peaceful folk."

>

[Trader]

>> Our greek poster claimed the nyt article confirmed the origin of the
>> "philistines as "Pelasgian greeks". That is a problem in itself, from the
>> wiki entry:
>>
>> The name Pelasgians (/p@|l dZi@nz, -dZ@nz, -gi@nz/; Greek: Pelasgoi',
>> Pelasgo singular: Pelasgo'*s, Pelasg ) was used by some ancient writers to
>> refer to populations that were either the ancestors of the Greeks or
>> preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive
>> and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".^[1] In general,
>
>More historically unfounded nonsense.
>
>Herodotus specifically states that the Hellenes (not to be mixed up with
>the modern term Greeks) were an offshoot of the Pelagians that became
>more successful and more numerous. He also states that Greece (Hellas)
was originally known as Pelasgia. He
does not say that all indigenous
>peoples of the Greek world were Pelasgians.

The wiki article uses him, and the info is somewhat different.

But given the greater amount of info since his time, I will go with
those other references and their conclusion as given, including the
folllowing.

>
>> "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of
>> the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.^[2]
>>
>
>No. Not according to actual historians.

That is meaningless, the people in the wiki are historians.>
Snip

>
>> In other words, anyone hanging around in the e. med. sea before any clearly
>> greek cultures.
>
>A basic reading and understanding of Herodotus will show you this
>revisionist nonsense is all wrong.
>

As above, the broader in historical depth info for me.

>>
>> So to that extent it applied to the philistines and any number of other
>> cultures and groups of the area.
>>
>> Any claim the site now confirms greeks as philistines is inaccurate. I
>
>The claim is the other way round. Philistines were Pelasgian Greeks.

>Well duh, six and half a dozen?

>> reread the nyt articles again and no
such claim can be
usustained in
them.
>
>Wrong. The article conclusively states that the Philistines came from
>the Aegean and there can be no more argument against it now. Their
>burial customs, their material culture, their diet, the style of their
>buildings and pottery is all from the Aegean. They even used
>Cypro-Minoan script for writing.

Sure, learly reflecting a local example of the sphere of the "sea people".

Your representation is a tautology. Declaring the Aegean. means something
about greeks then the example is about greeks also. The conclusion just
repeats the presumption.

>> There is mention which is not new that some think they came from cyprus or
>> crete or otherwise from sone "western" direction. But it does not say
>> cultural artifacts and burial customs of greek origin were present. The
>> inscriptions found were not greek.
>
>You must be reading a completely different article because the original
>article says exactly the opposite.
>
>http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.729879

Yes as I said the nyt versions.> They have more detail in fact and
covered the same info as you mention.

>"Cemetery in ancient Ashkelon, dating back 2700-3000 years, proves the
>Philistines came from the Aegean, and that in contrast to the
>conventional wisdom, they were a peaceful folk."

Therefore? No greeks of any flavar yet.

In your article the mntion the presence of items of egyptian origin,
nothing of greek origin, Aegean. notwithstanding.

An archaeologist would pee his pants if he finds items from another culture
to suggest broader connections. No greek items and his pants remain dry.

They write of the cultural items being of the same "sphere", and it ain't
greek but the "sea people". There were greek items in greece that could
have shown up as the egyptian did, none to be found.

[Agamemnon]

On 12/07/2016 22:29, Trader wrote:
>>> Our greek poster claimed the nyt article confirmed the origin of the
>>> "philistines as "Pelasgian greeks". That is a problem in itself, from the
>>> wiki entry:
>>>
>>> The name Pelasgians (/p@|l dZi@nz, -dZ@nz, -gi@nz/; Greek: Pelasgoi',
>>> Pelasgo singular: Pelasgo'*s, Pelasg ) was used by some ancient writers to
>>> refer to populations that were either the ancestors of the Greeks or
>>> preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive
>>> and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".^[1] In general,
>>
>> More historically unfounded nonsense.
>>
>> Herodotus specifically states that the Hellenes (not to be mixed up with
>> the modern term Greeks) were an offshoot of the Pelagians that became
>> more successful and more numerous. He also states that Greece (Hellas)
> was originally known as Pelasgia. He
> does not say that all indigenous
>> peoples of the Greek world were Pelasgians.
>
> The wiki article uses him, and the info is somewhat different.
>
> But given the greater amount of info since his time, I will go with
> those other references and their conclusion as given, including the
> folllowing.

Those other references are historically unsubstantiated and historically
unreferenced nonsensical revisionist speculations.

I will stick with Herodotus, Stabo, Pausanius, Diodorus and Homer.

>>
>>> "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of
>>> the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.^[2]
>>>
>>
>> No. Not according to actual historians.
>
> That is meaningless, the people in the wiki are historians.>
> Snip

Herodotus, Stabo, Pausanius, Diodorus and Homer are historians. Anyone
else cited that isn't an ancient historian and that does not quote a
historical source verbatim is writing pure fantasy.

>>
>>> In other words, anyone hanging around in the e. med. sea before any clearly
>>> greek cultures.
>>
>> A basic reading and understanding of Herodotus will show you this
>> revisionist nonsense is all wrong.
>>
> As above, the broader in historical depth info for me.

Anything other than direct cites from ancient historians is pure fantasy.

>>>
>>> So to that extent it applied to the philistines and any number of other
>>> cultures and groups of the area.
>>>
>>> Any claim the site now confirms greeks as philistines is inaccurate. I
>>
>> The claim is the other way round. Philistines were Pelasgian Greeks.
>> Well duh, six and half a dozen?

The two terms do no commute. Philistines were Pelasgian Greeks does not
equal Pelasgian Greeks were Philistines.

>
>>> reread the nyt articles again and no
> such claim can be
> usustained in
> them.
>>
>> Wrong. The article conclusively states that the Philistines came from
>> the Aegean and there can be no more argument against it now. Their
>> burial customs, their material culture, their diet, the style of their
>> buildings and pottery is all from the Aegean. They even used
>> Cypro-Minoan script for writing.
>
> Sure, learly reflecting a local example of the sphere of the "sea people".
>
> Your representation is a tautology. Declaring the Aegean. means something
> about greeks then the example is about greeks also. The conclusion just
> repeats the presumption.

The Aegean civilisation, customs and material culture described is that
of Mycenaean Greece, Crete and Cyprus.

>
>>> There is mention which is not new that some think they came from cyprus or
>>> crete or otherwise from sone "western" direction. But it does not say
>>> cultural artifacts and burial customs of greek origin were present. The
>>> inscriptions found were not greek.
>>
>> You must be reading a completely different article because the original
>> article says exactly the opposite.
>>
>> http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.729879
>
> Yes as I said the nyt versions.> They have more detail in fact and
> covered the same info as you mention.
>
>> "Cemetery in ancient Ashkelon, dating back 2700-3000 years, proves the
>> Philistines came from the Aegean, and that in contrast to the
>> conventional wisdom, they were a peaceful folk."
>
> Therefore? No greeks of any flavar yet.

Wrong. Mycenaean Greek from the mainland and from Crete and Cyprus.

>
> In your article the mntion the presence of items of egyptian origin,
> nothing of greek origin, Aegean. notwithstanding.
>
> An archaeologist would pee his pants if he finds items from another culture
> to suggest broader connections. No greek items and his pants remain dry.
>

Wrong. The burial customs were distinctly Greek and in no way Phoenician.

> They write of the cultural items being of the same "sphere", and it ain't
> greek but the "sea people". There were greek items in greece that could
> have shown up as the egyptian did, none to be found.

The burials were carried out in the same way as they were in Greece and
Crete and like no where else in Palestine, Phoenicia or Egypt. That
places the Philistines origin firmly in Greece.

[Martin Edwards]

What an exhaustive article, and what a slick site compared to so many
newspapers. Thanks a lot.

--
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must
painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman

[Trader]

The news article had two clues that bring a clear picture
. Aegean and pit burials, both found in the bulgarian area.

There is a later greek connection, alexander's father was bulgarian and
his mother gypsy.

So when alex went off seeking his heritage he naturally went to the area of
the philistines on his father's side and india for his mother's.

Knowing of the sea people, bulgarian , connection to egypt, he went there
also.

Alex rounds out the picture of the origins of the sea people via his father
and mother heritage.

With his hindsight, much of ancient bulgarian historical literature snaps
into place also.

For example, the bulgarian versions of the battle between goliath, a
bulgarian folk hero, and a shepard boy is confirmed.

I expect the generic evidence to come up strongly bulgarian in origin.