Venice=Phoencian?
Dave Berntson
This email showed up on a list a couple of days ago.
Any thoughts?
db
********Cut/Copy/Paste************
an exerpt from:
Critical Path by R. Buckminster Fuller (Ch. 3, Legally Piggily) 1981
http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/lobby/1234/legally_piggily2.htm
The Phoenicians, Cretans, and the Mycenaeans, together, in fleets
of these big-ribbed and heavily planked ships, went to Troy and besieged
it. Up to this time the besiegers of Troy had come overland, and they
soon ran out of food. But the Troy-besieging Greeks and Cretans came
to Troy in ships, which they could send back for more supplies. This
terminally-turned-around voyaging back to the supply sources and
return to the line of battle was called their "line of supply." The new
line-of-supply masters -- the Greeks -- starved out the Trojans. The
Trojans thought they had enough food but had not reckoned on the
people besieging them having these large ships. The Trojan horse was
the large wooden ship -- that did the task of horses -- out of whose
belly poured armed troops.
At this time the power structure of world affairs shifts from
control by the city-state to the masters of the lines of supply. At
this point in the history of swiftly evolving, multibanked, oar and
sail-driven fighting ships, the world power-structure control shifts
westward to Italy. While historians place prime emphasis on the Roman
legions as establishing the power of the Roman Empire, it was in fact
the development of ships and the overseas line of supply upon which
its power was built -- by transporting those legions and keeping them
supplied.
Go to Italy, and you will see all the incredibly lovely valleys
and
great caste/los commanding each of those valleys such as you saw in the
typical city-states, and you can see that none of those walls has ever
been breached. Also in Italy -- in the northeastern corner -- is Venice,
headquarters of the water-people. The Phoenicians -- *phonetically* the
Venetians -- had their south Mediterranean headquarters in Carthage in
northern Africa. In their western Mediterranean and Atlantic venturings
the Phoenicians became the Veekings. The Phoenicians-venetians....in
their ships voyaged around the whole coast of Italy and sent in their
people to each caste, one by one. The Venetians had an unlimited line of
supply, and the people inside each costello did not. The people inside
were starved out. Thus, all of the regional masters of the people in
Italy hated the Venetians-Phoenicians..veekings who were able to do
this. There being as yet no Suez Canal, the new world power structure
centered in the ship mastery of the line of supply finally forcing the
Roman Empire to shift its headquarters to Constantinople some ten
centuries after the fall of Troy. The Roman emperor-pope's bodyguards
were the Veekings-Vikings, the water-peoples' most powerful frontier
fighters. The line of supply from Asia to Constantinople was partially
caravan-borne and partially water-borne via Sinkiang-Khyber
Pass-Afghanistan or via the Sea of Azov, the Caspian and the Black
seas. From Constantinople, the western Europe-bound traffic was rerouted
from overland to waterway routes. Because the Asia-to-Constantinople
half of the trading was more land-borne-via-caravans, whose routes were
dominated by the city-state-mastering Turks, Constantinople in due
course was taken over by the Turks who established the Byzantine Empire
in the Aegean Sea and Asia Minor.
Before leaving the subject of the great power-structure struggle
for
control of the most important, greatest cargo-tonnage-transporting most
profitable, Asia-to-Europe trade routes, we must note that the strength
of the Egyptian Empire was predicated upon its pre-Suez function as a
trade route link between Asia and Europe via the Indian Ocean, the Red
Sea, overland caravan to the Nile, and then water-borne to Alexandria,
or via Somaliland, overland to the headwaters of the Nile, and thence to
Alexandria. The latter route was not economically competitive but was
the route of travel of the ship-designing and -building arts that in due
course brought the stoutly keeled, heavily ribbed, big-bellied ships
into the Mediterranean.
We have seen the Greek Alexander the Great crossing Persia and
reaching the Indian Ocean, thus connecting with the Phoenician trading
to Asia. A thousand years later the Crusaders -- ostensibly fighting for
holy reasons -- were the Indian Ocean-Phoenician-Venetian-Veeking
water-borne power structure fighting the older overland-Khyber Pass
power structure over mastery of the trade route between Asia and Europe.
In our "Humans in Universe" chapter we spoke about the 600-200
B.C. Greeks' discovery that our Earth is a sphere and a planet of the
solar system [1]. This was the typical scientific product of a water-
navigation people.
We witnessed also the originally horse-mounted Roman Empire's
destruction of such knowledge, as their earlier grand strategy sought to
reestablish the Asia-to-Europe trade pattern via Constantinople and the
inland, overland, Khyber Pass route. This explains why the power
structure saw fit to Dark-Age-out the mariners' spherical concept. It
explains Ptolemy's 200 A.D. conic map's cutting off the around-Africa
route mapped by Eratosthenes 400 years earlier.
[...]
Up until 1500 B.C. all money was cattle, lambs, goats, or
pigs-live
money that was real life-support wealth, wealth you could actually eat.
Steers were by far the biggest food animal, and so they were the highest
denomination of money. The Phoenicians carried their cattle with them
for trading, but these big creatures proved to be very cumbersome on
long voyages. This was the time when Crete was the headquarters of the
big-boat people and their new supreme weapon-the lines-of-supply-control
ship. Crete was called the Minoan civilization, the bull civilization,
worshipers of the male fertility god.
The pair of joined bull's horns symbolized that the particular
ship
carried real-wealth traders-that there were cattle on board to be
exchanged for local-wealth items. The Norsemen with their paired-horn
headdress were the Phoenician, Veenetian, Veeking (spelled Viking but
pronounced "Veeking" by the Vikings). Veenetians, Phoenicians.
(Punitians, Puntits, Pundits. Punic Wars. Punt = boat = the boat people.
Pun in some African Colored languages means "red," as in Red Sea.). The
Veekings were simply the northernmost European traders. The Veekings,
Veenitians, Feenicians, Friesians-i.e., Phoenicians, Portuguese-were
cross-breeding water-world people.
Graduating from carrying cattle along for trading in 1500 B.C. the
Phoenicians invented metal money, which they first formed into iron
half-rings that looked like a pair of bull's horns. (Many today mistake
them for bracelets.) Soon the traders found that those in previously
unvisited foreign countries had no memory of the cattle-on-board trading
days and didn't recognize the miniature iron bull horn. If metal was
being used for trading, then there were other kinds of metal they
preferred trading with people--silver, copper, and gold were easy to
judge by hefting and were more aesthetically pleasing than the forged
iron bull horn symbols. This soon brought metal coinage into the game of
world trading, with the first coin bearing the image of the sovereign of
the homeland of the Phoenicians.
This switch to coinage occurred coincidentally at just about the
same
time as the great changeover from city-state dominance to line-of-supply
dominance of the power-structure group controlling most of world
affairs. This was the time when the Phoenicians began trading with
people of so many different languages that, in need of a means of
recording the different word sounds made by people around the world, the
Phoenicians invented phonetic spelling -- *Phoenician* spelling -- which
pronounced each successive sound separately and invented letter symbols
for each sound. With phonetic spelling human written communication
changed very much-from the visual-metaphor-concept writing of the
Orient, accomplished with complex idea-graphics (ideographs), several of
which frequently experienced, generalized cartoons told the whole story
visually. It was a big change from ideographs to the Phoenicians'
phonetic spelling, wherein each letter is a single sound-having no
meaning in itself-and whereby it took several sounds to make a whole
word and many such words to make any sense-i.e., a sentence. This is the
historical event that Ezra Pound says coincides with the story of the
Tower of Babel. Pound says that humanity was split into a babble of
individually meaningless sounds while losing the conceptual symbols of
whole ideas -- powerful generalizations. You had to become an expert to
understand the phonetic letter code. The spelling of words excluded a
great many people from communicating, people who had been doing so
successfully with ideographs.
This gradual alteration of world trading devices from cattle to
gold
brought about the world-around development of pirates who, building
small but swift craft, could on a dark night board one of the great
merchant ships just before it reached home, richly laden after a
two-year trip to the Orient, and take over the ship and, above all, its
gold. With the gold captured, the pirates often burned the vanquished
ship.
As already mentioned in our Introduction, it was in 1805, 200
years
after the founding of the East India Company [2], that the British won
the Battle of Trafalgar, giving them dominance of all the world's lines
of supply. They now controlled the seas of the world. It was said by
world people that the British Empire became the first empire in history
upon which "the sun never set." In order to get their gold off the sea
and out of reach of the pirates, the British made deals with the
sovereigns of all the countries around the world with whom they traded,
by which it was agreed from then on to keep annual accounts of their
intertrading and at the end of the year to move the gold from the
debtor's bank in London to the creditor's bank in London to balance the
accounts. In this way they kept the gold off the ocean and immune to sea
pirate raiding. This brought about what is now called the "balance of
trade" accounting.
The international trading became the most profitable of all
enterprises, and great land-"owners" with clear-cut king's "deeds" to
their land went often to international gold moneylenders. The great land
barons underwrote the building of enterprisers' ships with their cattle
or other real wealth, the regenerative products of their lands, turned
over to the lender as collateral.
If the ship did come back, both the enterpriser and the bankers
realized a great gain. The successful ship venturer paid the banker
back, and the banker who had been holding the cattle as collateral
returned them to their original proprietor. But during the voyage
(usually two years to the Orient and back to Europe) the pledged cattle
had calves, "kind" (German for "child"), and this is where the concept
of interest originated, which was payable "in kind" -- the cattle that
were born while the collateral was held by the banker were to belong
to the banker.
When the Phoenicians shifted their trading strategy from carrying
cattle to carrying metal money, the metal money didn't have little money
"kind" -- but the idea of earned interest persisted. This meant that the
interest was deducted from the original money value, and this of course
depreciated the capital equity of the borrower. Thus, metallic equity
banking became a different kind of game from the original concept.
In twentieth-century banking the depositors assume that their
money is safely guarded in the vaulted bank, especially so in a savings
bank, whereas their money is loaned out, within seconds after its
depositing, at interest payable to the banker which is greater than the
interest paid to the savings account depositor and, since the metal or
paper money does not produce children -- "kind" -- the banker's
so-called earned share must, in reality, be deducted from the
depositor's true-wealth deposit.
The merchant bankers of Venice came to underwrite the
Venetians'[3]
(the Phoenicians') voyaging ventures. Such international trade financing
swiftly became the big thing in the banking game. The "Merchant of
Venice" -- Shylock and his "pound of flesh forfeit" of the debtor -- was
Shakespeare's way of calling attention to the fact that the bankers'
"interest" was in reality depleting the life-support equity of both the
depositors and the borrowers.
---
[1] Pythagoras, Anaxagoras, Democritus, Eratosthenes, Hipparchus,
et al., especially Anaxagoras, who the religious establishment murdered
for the 'crime' of impiety -- suggesting that the sun is not a 'god' but
a "hot stone" far away, and that the moon was composed of matter.
http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/lobby/1234/Democritus.html
[2] For more info on The East India Company:
http://www.theeastindiacompany.com/
[3] For more info on the Venetian banksters:
http://www.tarpley.net/allvenic.htm
Trotter960
>The Phoenicians, Cretans, and the >Mycenaeans, together, in fleets
>of these big-ribbed and heavily planked >ships, went to Troy.....
The only source for the course of battle in the Trojan War is Homer. Yet even
with Homer, many scholars question whether
such a war ever took place. The evidences of historicity have collapsed one by
one.
For example, it used to be maintained that
the Trojan War recorded culture as it would have been known in the late second
mil-
lenium. This position has been given up.
>The Trojan horse was the large wooden >ship .....
Have you read or seen on TV Michael Woods' In Search of the Trojan War? This
idea sounds like a takeoff on his theory.
Trotter
Pete Barrett
There are so many holes in this that it's easier to focus on something
that might just be right, as far as I can tell with limited knowledge:
>This was the time when the Phoenicians began trading with
>people of so many different languages that, in need of a means of
>recording the different word sounds made by people around the world, the
>Phoenicians invented phonetic spelling -- *Phoenician* spelling -- which
>pronounced each successive sound separately and invented letter symbols
>for each sound.
Is it in any way possible that <phon-> is derived from or related to
<Phoen->?
Pete Barrett
patrick burke
Pete Barrett <pe...@platypus.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g1vuls8nbcpn9b33q...@4ax.com...
>
> There are so many holes in this that it's easier to focus on something
> that might just be right, as far as I can tell with limited knowledge:
>
> >people of so many different languages that, in need of a means of
> >recording the different word sounds made by people around the world, the
> >Phoenicians invented phonetic spelling -- *Phoenician* spelling -- which
> >pronounced each successive sound separately and invented letter symbols
> >for each sound.
>
> <Phoen->?
>
If the claim is that Venice is a Phoenician city you are right. Venice
was founded in the dark ages when the some people from the coast of Italy
moved to some Islands in a lagoon for safety from invaders.
>
> Pete Barrett
INGER E. JOHANSSON
patrick burke <pat.jam...@worldnet.att.net> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:htP75.3441$xL3.2...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldne
t.att.net...
>
> Pete Barrett <pe...@platypus.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:g1vuls8nbcpn9b33q...@4ax.com...
> >
> > There are so many holes in this that it's easier to focus on something
> > that might just be right, as far as I can tell with limited knowledge:
> >
> > >people of so many different languages that, in need of a means of
> > >recording the different word sounds made by people around the world,
the
> > >Phoenicians invented phonetic spelling -- *Phoenician* spelling --
which
> > >pronounced each successive sound separately and invented letter symbols
> > >for each sound.
> >
> > <Phoen->?
> >
>
> If the claim is that Venice is a Phoenician city you are right. Venice
> was founded in the dark ages when the some people from the coast of Italy
> moved to some Islands in a lagoon for safety from invaders.
> >
> > Pete Barrett
Pete,
would you please explain how you succeed in linking a people from the
past(long before Christ) with the dark age during Migration Age(after
Christ)????? Btw, the Phoenician had a town in Northern Italy during their
Age, but it wasn't Venice.....
Inger E
Marcello Fabretti
Italians trying to find refuge on the small islands which would one day
become Venice. Venice and the region of Venetia get their name from the
Veneti who were an Italic tribe who had occupied the region before the Roman
conquest back in the 3rd Century B.C. The Veneti speak an Italic, and
therefore, Indo-European langauge while the Carthaginians and their
Phoenician founders speak Punic, which was a Semitic language. While there
were a few trading-centres set-up on Italian soil, their presence on the
Peninsula was limited just to a few Etruscan trading towns and the only real
colonies they had were in Sardinia and North-West Sicily. There was also a
tribe of Germans called the Veneti by the Romans, but they too are in no way
linked to the inhabitants of Venetia and later of Venice. Also "V" in Latin
was pronounced as an English "W". And the "Ph" in Phoeni- was an aspirated
"P" sound. "Venetian" and "Phoenician" are completely different words with
completely different backgrownds. Just because both "races" (there's that
word again...) used boats to forge a trading empire doesn't mean they were
one and the same people.
Marcello
> Pete Barrett <pe...@platypus.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:g1vuls8nbcpn9b33q...@4ax.com...
> >
> > There are so many holes in this that it's easier to focus on something
> > that might just be right, as far as I can tell with limited knowledge:
> >
> > >This was the time when the Phoenicians began trading with
> > >people of so many different languages that, in need of a means of
> > >recording the different word sounds made by people around the world,
the
> > >Phoenicians invented phonetic spelling -- *Phoenician* spelling --
which
> > >pronounced each successive sound separately and invented letter symbols
> > >for each sound.
> >
Mark D. Lew
> [...] The Phoenicians -- *phonetically* the
> Venetians -- had their south Mediterranean headquarters in Carthage in
> northern Africa. In their western Mediterranean and Atlantic venturings
> the Phoenicians became the Veekings. The Phoenicians-venetians.... [...]
A clever idea, but it turns out to be non-factual. The two names are
completely unrelated.
Much of the writer's thesis is reasonable enough; too bad he or she wrapped
it around an etymological association which is demonstrably false.
> [...] the
> Phoenicians invented phonetic spelling -- *Phoenician* spelling -- which
> pronounced each successive sound separately and invented letter symbols
> for each sound. [...]
I'm pretty sure this one is a false, too, but can't affirm 100%.
mdl
Padraic Brown
: Quoting someone else's article, Dave Berntson <db...@pionet.net> wrote:
: > [...] The Phoenicians -- *phonetically* the
: > Venetians -- had their south Mediterranean headquarters in Carthage in
: > northern Africa. In their western Mediterranean and Atlantic venturings
: > the Phoenicians became the Veekings. The Phoenicians-venetians.... [...]
: A clever idea, but it turns out to be non-factual. The two names are
: completely unrelated.
: Much of the writer's thesis is reasonable enough; too bad he or she wrapped
: it around an etymological association which is demonstrably false.
: > [...] the
: > Phoenicians invented phonetic spelling -- *Phoenician* spelling -- which
: > pronounced each successive sound separately and invented letter symbols
: > for each sound. [...]
: I'm pretty sure this one is a false, too, but can't affirm 100%.
I think "Phoenician" comes from a word that means "Punic", as in
Punic War; "phonetic" is from a Greek word that means sound. No
dictionary right at hand, so can't check the etymologies. You're
right, though: they aren't related.
Padraic.
: mdl
Mark D. Lew
Brown) wrote:
> I think "Phoenician" comes from a word that means "Punic", as in
> Punic War; "phonetic" is from a Greek word that means sound. No
> dictionary right at hand, so can't check the etymologies. You're
> right, though: they aren't related.
Yes, "Phoenician" and "Punic" are indeed cognate, and "phonetic" does
indeed derive from phonos=sound.
Although it seems improbable, I can't say for certain that there isn't some
distant connection between phonos=sound and phoinos=purple.
mdl
Pete Barrett
wrote:
>In article <8jr7mg$1dqn$1...@news.ums.edu>, pbr...@polaris.umuc.edu (Padraic
>Brown) wrote:
>
>> I think "Phoenician" comes from a word that means "Punic", as in
>> Punic War; "phonetic" is from a Greek word that means sound. No
>> dictionary right at hand, so can't check the etymologies. You're
>> right, though: they aren't related.
>
>Yes, "Phoenician" and "Punic" are indeed cognate, and "phonetic" does
>indeed derive from phonos=sound.
>
If <phonos> has cognates in other IE languages, we can assume that
it's unrelated to <phoin->. I can't determine that it has, but that
doesn't mean much. Does any expert know whether it's basic IE?
>Although it seems improbable, I can't say for certain that there isn't some
>distant connection between phonos=sound and phoinos=purple.
>
If it's only in Greek, then it *could* be related to <Phoenician>, I
think. The Greek alphabet derives from north Semitic alphabets, yes?
Specifically the Phoenician alphabet? That much, as far as I can
determine, is orthodox opinion. In which case, it certainly isn't
beyond the bound of possibility, at least as far as I know the facts,
that the Greeks referred to the "Phoenician letters", used to write
sounds rather than ideas, and hence to "phonetic letters". At the
very least, there must have been confusion between the two similar
words, even if they're in origin different - the pun (is this
Phoenician, too? <g>) is too obvious.
It is, of course, a house of cards which could be knocked over by one
fact, but I don't know of any facts which do. Can anyone else provide
them?
Pete Barrett
Mark D. Lew
<pe...@platypus.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> It is, of course, a house of cards which could be knocked over by one
> fact, but I don't know of any facts which do. Can anyone else provide
> them?
I think an OED would probably be sufficient to settle this, but alas I
don't have one. Even my Merriam-Webster, however, tells me that
phoinos=purple (whence "Phoenicia") is actually "blood-red" and akin to
phonos=destruction. (That's phonos=murder with a short o, in contrast to
phönos=sound [pretend the umlaut is a macron] with a long o).
This demonstrates at least that the name for Phoenicia did not come from
the word for sound. There still remain the (seemingly improbable)
possibilities that (1) phönos=sound is a relatively recent word, not coined
until after Phoenicia was known, or (2) phönos=sound is somehow related to
phonos=murder.
The names Persephone and Tisiphone both seem to derive from
phonos=destruction, so that's no help.
I'm out of my element here; perhaps we need to carry this discussion to one
of the classics groups?
Incidentally, if there really is a phonos-Phoenix connection, should be
extrapolate that phobos=fear has something to do with Phoebus=radiant?
mdl
Pete Barrett
wrote:
>In article <sdj4ms4nimekeiere...@4ax.com>, Pete Barrett
><pe...@platypus.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> It is, of course, a house of cards which could be knocked over by one
>> fact, but I don't know of any facts which do. Can anyone else provide
>> them?
>
>I think an OED would probably be sufficient to settle this, but alas I
>don't have one. Even my Merriam-Webster, however, tells me that
>phoinos=purple (whence "Phoenicia") is actually "blood-red" and akin to
>phonos=destruction. (That's phonos=murder with a short o, in contrast to
>phönos=sound [pretend the umlaut is a macron] with a long o).
>
I don't have access to an OED, either, but I suspect that it could
only disprove (by showing that <pho:nos> is an IE word. But at best it
can only give the current (or more probably ten years earlier)
scholarly opinion.
I've always understood that <Phuni> or something of the sort must have
been their own name for themselves (hence <Punices> in Latin). If so,
then <Phoenicia> can hardly be derived from <phoinos>, and it must be
one of those confusions of similar sounding words which happen to have
similar meanings (folk etymology of 'Tyrian purple', for instance).
Certainly, <phonos> must be related to <bane>, mustn't it, and
therefore IE? A pun on some particularly desctructive Poenician
pirates, perhaps.
>This demonstrates at least that the name for Phoenicia did not come from
>the word for sound. There still remain the (seemingly improbable)
>possibilities that (1) phönos=sound is a relatively recent word, not coined
>until after Phoenicia was known, or (2) phönos=sound is somehow related to
>phonos=murder.
>
>The names Persephone and Tisiphone both seem to derive from
>phonos=destruction, so that's no help.
>
>I'm out of my element here; perhaps we need to carry this discussion to one
>of the classics groups?
>
>Incidentally, if there really is a phonos-Phoenix connection, should be
>extrapolate that phobos=fear has something to do with Phoebus=radiant?
>
>mdl
Pete Barrett
Christopher B Siren
Taken from my Canaanite/Ugaritic Mythology FAQ:
Recent archaeological finds indicate that the inhabitants of the region
themselves refered to the land as 'ca-na-na-um' as early as the mid-third
milenium B.C. (Aubet p. 9) Variations on that name in reference to the
country and its inhabitants continue through the first millenium B.C. The
word appears to have two etymologies. On one end, represented by the
Hebrew "cana'ani" the word meant merchant, an occupation for which the
Canaanites were well known. On the other end, as represented by the
Akkadian kinahhu, the word reffered to the red-colored wool which was a
key export of the region. When the Greeks encountered the Canaanites, it
may have been this aspect of the term which they latched onto as they
renamed the Canaanites the Phoenikes or Phoenicians, which may derive
from a word meaning red or purple, and descriptive of the cloth for which
the Greeks too traded. The Romans in turn transcribed the Greek phoinix
to poenus, thus calling the descendants of the Canaanite emmegrees to
Carthage 'Punic'. However, while both Phoenician and Canaanite refer to
approximately the same culture, archaeologists and historians commonly
refer to the pre-1200 or 1000 BC Levantines as Canaanites and their
descendants, who left the bronze age for the iron, as Phoenicians.
Chris Siren ICQ# 17091740
cbs...@cisunix.unh.edu http://pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren
Myths and Legends: http://pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren/myth.html
Canaanite Myth FAQ: http://pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren/canaanite-faq.html
Padraic Brown
: On Wed, 05 Jul 2000 11:32:44 GMT, mark...@earthlink.net (Mark D. Lew)
: wrote:
: >In article <sdj4ms4nimekeiere...@4ax.com>, Pete Barrett
: ><pe...@platypus.clara.co.uk> wrote:
: >
: >> It is, of course, a house of cards which could be knocked over by one
: >> fact, but I don't know of any facts which do. Can anyone else provide
: >> them?
: >
: >I think an OED would probably be sufficient to settle this, but alas I
: >don't have one. Even my Merriam-Webster, however, tells me that
: >phoinos=purple (whence "Phoenicia") is actually "blood-red" and akin to
: >phonos=destruction. (That's phonos=murder with a short o, in contrast to
: >phönos=sound [pretend the umlaut is a macron] with a long o).
: >
: I don't have access to an OED, either, but I suspect that it could
: only disprove (by showing that <pho:nos> is an IE word. But at best it
: can only give the current (or more probably ten years earlier)
: scholarly opinion.
It seems to derive from *bha:-, making it a good IE form.
Phoenicians are unlikely to have derived their name from such an IE
word.
Padraic.
: Pete Barrett
shardana
archeological, philological and historical evidence that
Venice=Phoenician. Ancient world is full of unfounded
tracks just like the question if Estruscans (called also
Tyrrenoi ad Lydii) went from Asia.
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