obvious question

37 views
Skip to first unread message

M1065att Gi129wer

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 10:46:51 PM2/22/02
to
If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets
some place in the Near East ...

Would anyone have any reason to assume it was other than something
written by Greeks?

Would it be considered religious dogma or fiction?

Would the language be considered other than Phoenician?

Would other stories found later in the same Linear B script be
considered other the fantasy?

--
Timothy McVeigh should not have been executed
before Reno.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 810

CAVM

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 11:42:48 PM2/22/02
to
>From: M1065att Gi129wer mat31

>Timothy McVeigh should not have been executed
>before Reno.
> -- The Iron Webmaster, 810

McVeigh should have been boiled in oil on camera. And any of his supporters
should be lined up against a wall and shot.


Agamemnon

unread,
Feb 22, 2002, 11:44:40 PM2/22/02
to

"M1065att Gi129wer" <mat...@74giwersworld.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force...

> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets
> some place in the Near East ...

If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of any
LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.

> Would anyone have any reason to assume it was other than something
> written by Greeks?

The Tora (Greek for "The Now" i.e. History) could not possibly have been
found on any clay tablets since this was work of historical fiction.

Manetho accurately dates the so-called Exodus to the regin of Seti 1199-1193
BC (confirmed by the bible, and linear regression of biblical generations),
but the events of this time are all recorded on Egyptian inscriptions which
make no mention of and Jews or Israelites but refer to an Exodus of Greek
Sea-Peoples. Since the Exodus is historically proven to have been of Greeks,
clearly the biblical account is a FRAUD.

>
> Would it be considered religious dogma or fiction?
>

If it were found it would make no mention of god at all but of Pharaoh. All
the names of the Pharaohs which were removed in 65 BC and replaced with
Kyrios which then became Adonai and then YHWH, would still be there.

All that one has to do is to read the LXX in the orginal Greek and you will
see that there is not mention of any god. All that is mentioned is the Lord
said this or the Lord did that. This way of referring to Pharaoh was exactly
the same way in which Herodotus referred to Darius as "Kydos Basileas" when
he became Pharoah. In Aramaic this title would have read "Adonai Elohim"
which is what the Hebrew translation of the bible make into YHWH Elohim.

> Would the language be considered other than Phoenician?

No.

>
> Would other stories found later in the same Linear B script be
> considered other the fantasy?

Unlike the bible almost all of the Greek Gods are found inscribed in Linear
B in a religious context. There is NOT ONE mention of Jehovah in any
Phenicains script except as a personal name. In fact virtually ALL of the
kings of Ioudia and Israil were called Jehovah, like for exampled Ahab who
on the Moabite stone is called Yahweh in the context of being the son of
Omri and in the inscription of Shalmanerser III is called Yahua son of
Khumri (Omri). How can Jehovah be a god when every king called himself by
that name. This would make that bible read "And Jehovah prayed to Jehovah
for deliverance" The king prayed to himself... really !

How many Greek kings called themselves Zeus. One and only one. Clearly Zeus
was a God but Jehovah is a mortal.

BernardZ

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 4:15:02 AM2/23/02
to
In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force>, mat31t@
74giwersworld.org says...

> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets
> some place in the Near East ...

Check this book out

What did the biblical writers know & when did they know it?
By William G. Dever

Most of the early writing would have been written on papyrus
unfortunately it was perishable. However quite a bit has been found on
broken pottery and carved in stone.

Sections of it have been found written

>
> Would anyone have any reason to assume it was other than something
> written by Greeks?

The writing is not Greek but old Canaanite and cursive Hebrew script.

>
> Would it be considered religious dogma or fiction?
>
> Would the language be considered other than Phoenician?
>
> Would other stories found later in the same Linear B script be
> considered other the fantasy?

I have no idea what you are talking about here!

BernardZ

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 4:21:02 AM2/23/02
to
In article <a576nn$an3$1...@paris.btinternet.com>,
replace.wi...@hello.to says...

>
> "M1065att Gi129wer" <mat...@74giwersworld.org> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force...
> > If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> > stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets
> > some place in the Near East ...
>
> If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of any
> LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.

I have already in my previous posts showed you that this claim is false.
Why do you continue this nonsense. Why don't you check the Judean bench
tomb written in cursive Hebrew script dated the 7/6 century

Yahweh (is) the God of the whole earth; the mountains of Judah belong to
him, to the God of Jerusalem.

Agamemnon

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 5:19:41 AM2/23/02
to

"BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
news:MPG.16e2089f41d4251e98976d@news...

> In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force>, mat31t@
> 74giwersworld.org says...
> > If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> > stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay
tablets
> > some place in the Near East ...
>
> Check this book out
>
> What did the biblical writers know & when did they know it?
> By William G. Dever
>
> Most of the early writing would have been written on papyrus
> unfortunately it was perishable. However quite a bit has been found on
> broken pottery and carved in stone.
>
> Sections of it have been found written
>
> >
> > Would anyone have any reason to assume it was other than something
> > written by Greeks?
>
> The writing is not Greek but old Canaanite and cursive Hebrew script.

There is NO such script as cursive Hebrew script.

The script of the MT is Jewish Square Script which is descended from Aramaic
and has less relation to the script of these inscriptions, Eastern
Phoenician, which are nothing more than the names of kings, than it does to
Greek.

Agamemnon

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 5:38:15 AM2/23/02
to

"BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
news:MPG.16e20a0e87bfd1b098976e@news...

> In article <a576nn$an3$1...@paris.btinternet.com>,
> replace.wi...@hello.to says...
> >
> > "M1065att Gi129wer" <mat...@74giwersworld.org> wrote in message
> > news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force...
> > > If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> > > stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay
tablets
> > > some place in the Near East ...
> >
> > If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of
any
> > LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
>
> I have already in my previous posts showed you that this claim is false.
> Why do you continue this nonsense. Why don't you check the Judean bench
> tomb written in cursive Hebrew script dated the 7/6 century

How can you claim that an inscription dating to 700 BC is Hebrew when the
script most people know as "Hebrew" which is used in the MT, DID NOT EXIST
until Hellenistic times, c.160 BC.

The script of the MT is Jewish Square Script which is descended from Aramaic

and has less relation to the script of these and other inscriptions of the
period than it does to Greek.

>
> Yahweh (is) the God of the whole earth; the mountains of Judah belong to
> him, to the God of Jerusalem.

The inscription is either referring to king Ahaz, who in other inscriptions
is called Yahweh or has been wrongly dated.

"Ahaz (is) the king of the whole land; the mountains of Judah belong to him,
to the king of Jerusalem."

I would bet it is wrongly dated since there was NO Hebrew script until 160
BC.

The book of Jeremiah clearly assonates the LORD with the Pharaoh of Egypt
who is forced to give up his territories in Palestine to Nebuchadneser,
including Tyre. Since the Trains NEVER worshiped the so-called "Jewish"
deity it is obvious that it is PHARAOH who Jeremiah is referring to because
Tyre was a possession of Egypt at the time when Necho II was Pharaoh. This
was the time that the Phoenicians circumnavigate Africa to please Necho
according to Herodotus.

If the Jews were a circumcised people an worship only one god then how come
Herodotus in completely unaware of either them or their religion ? Why
doesn't Herodotus list them among the circumcised peoples or the troops of
Xerxes which included everyone under his rule. Why doesn't Herodotus mention
the uniqueness of monotheism like the Roman period writes do, because it was
so unusual. Why doesn't Herodotus mention their new temple which was under
construction at the time he was writing 440 BC. He travelled to Tyre at the
time and if this was a copy of the temple at Tyre, to Herakles like that of
Solomon then Herodotus would have mentioned it.

Bob Kolker

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 8:29:56 AM2/23/02
to

Agamemnon wrote:

>
> If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of any
> LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
>
> > Would anyone have any reason to assume it was other than something
> > written by Greeks?
>
> The Tora (Greek for "The Now" i.e. History)

The hebrew word Torah (from the verb Moreh -- to teach) means instruction.

Bob Kolker

Bob Kolker

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 8:35:37 AM2/23/02
to

Agamemnon wrote:

> >
> > The writing is not Greek but old Canaanite and cursive Hebrew script.
>
> There is NO such script as cursive Hebrew script.

The pre-exilic hebrew writing was more like cursive than the post exilic
babylonian script that was adapted from the Aramaic.

Bob Kolker


Agamemnon

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 12:06:24 PM2/23/02
to

"Bob Kolker" <bobk...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3C779AD4...@attbi.com...

Poppycock. Pure unadulterated poppycock.

How did the "M" of Moreh become a "T".

More like "Moreh" is from the Greek "Mpore", "to enable to do".


> Bob Kolker
>
>
>


Bob Kolker

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 12:12:14 PM2/23/02
to

Agamemnon wrote:

>
> How did the "M" of Moreh become a "T".

Mutation to the future form of the verb, you puss filled ingoramous. You know
not a paritcle, - ayn pratim - of Hebrew and you are a scum filled anti-semite
to boot.

Bob Kolker

Agamemnon

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 2:28:38 PM2/23/02
to

"Bob Kolker" <bobk...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3C77CEED...@attbi.com...

So how many Palestinian civilians did you shoot dead today, you Zionist
NAZI.


Bob Kolker

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 2:36:29 PM2/23/02
to

Agamemnon wrote:

>
> So how many Palestinian civilians did you shoot dead today, you Zionist
> NAZI.

Not a single one. Not because I lack the will, but because I lack the
opportunity.

Bob Kolker

Ivan Hodes

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 3:23:18 PM2/23/02
to
"Agamemnon" <replace.wi...@hello.to> wrote in message news:<a576nn$an3$1...@paris.btinternet.com>...

> "M1065att Gi129wer" <mat...@74giwersworld.org> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force...

> If it were found it would make no mention of god at all but of Pharaoh. All
> the names of the Pharaohs which were removed in 65 BC and replaced with
> Kyrios which then became Adonai and then YHWH, would still be there.
>
> All that one has to do is to read the LXX in the orginal Greek and you will
> see that there is not mention of any god. All that is mentioned is the Lord
> said this or the Lord did that. This way of referring to Pharaoh was exactly
> the same way in which Herodotus referred to Darius as "Kydos Basileas" when
> he became Pharoah. In Aramaic this title would have read "Adonai Elohim"
> which is what the Hebrew translation of the bible make into YHWH Elohim.

Exodus 7:13-7:16

"And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as
Pharoah ha dsiad. And Pharaoh said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is
hardened, he refuseth to let the peopel go. Get the unto Pharaoh in
the morning; lo, he goeth out unto the water; and thou sahlt stand by
the river's brink against he come; and th erod which was turned into a
serpent shalt thou take in thine hand. and thou shalt say unto him,
Pharoah of hte Hebrews hat sent me unto thee..."

Riiight...

Ivan Hodes

M1094att Gi120wer

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 1:53:30 AM2/24/02
to

>>From: M1065att Gi129wer mat31

You are not disagreeing with the order of execution.

--
It must be terrible to be bound by the past
or in hopes of the future.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 169

M4576att Gi713wer

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 1:53:31 AM2/24/02
to
On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Agamemnon wrote:

>"M1065att Gi129wer" <mat...@74giwersworld.org> wrote in message
>news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force...

>> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible stuff
>> and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets some
>> place in the Near East ...

>If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of any
>LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.

I wasn't trying to go into the "real" translation with this one,
rather even letting the translation be Lord God, would anyone take it to
mean there were really a people distinct from the Phoenician-Greek-Persian
culture of the region?

I don't see it.

>> Would anyone have any reason to assume it was other than something
>> written by Greeks?

>The Tora (Greek for "The Now" i.e. History) could not possibly have been
>found on any clay tablets since this was work of historical fiction.

This is a hypothetical. Carved in stone, papyrus, goat skin,
whatever, only that it was discovered in modern times like the pryamid
texts.

>Manetho accurately dates the so-called Exodus to the regin of Seti
>1199-1193 BC (confirmed by the bible, and linear regression of biblical
>generations), but the events of this time are all recorded on Egyptian
>inscriptions which make no mention of and Jews or Israelites but refer to
>an Exodus of Greek Sea-Peoples. Since the Exodus is historically proven to
>have been of Greeks, clearly the biblical account is a FRAUD.

This was brought up by some folks on soc.history.what-if not being
able to separate their assumptions based upon what they have been taught
from religious principles from the known facts. There I corrected the idea
of a "semitic" people and language, addressed the unstated bible basis, and
then it reduced to name calling.

>> Would it be considered religious dogma or fiction?

>If it were found it would make no mention of god at all but of Pharaoh. All
>the names of the Pharaohs which were removed in 65 BC and replaced with
>Kyrios which then became Adonai and then YHWH, would still be there.

And in crossposting it here I thank you for reposting your material
from reading the orginal Greek version of the story.

>All that one has to do is to read the LXX in the orginal Greek and you will
>see that there is not mention of any god. All that is mentioned is the Lord
>said this or the Lord did that. This way of referring to Pharaoh was
>exactly the same way in which Herodotus referred to Darius as "Kydos
>Basileas" when he became Pharoah. In Aramaic this title would have read
>"Adonai Elohim" which is what the Hebrew translation of the bible make into
>YHWH Elohim.

>> Would the language be considered other than Phoenician?

>No.

>> Would other stories found later in the same Linear B script be considered
>> other the fantasy?

>Unlike the bible almost all of the Greek Gods are found inscribed in Linear
>B in a religious context. There is NOT ONE mention of Jehovah in any
>Phenicains script except as a personal name. In fact virtually ALL of the
>kings of Ioudia and Israil were called Jehovah, like for exampled Ahab who
>on the Moabite stone is called Yahweh in the context of being the son of
>Omri and in the inscription of Shalmanerser III is called Yahua son of
>Khumri (Omri). How can Jehovah be a god when every king called himself by
>that name. This would make that bible read "And Jehovah prayed to Jehovah
>for deliverance" The king prayed to himself... really !

>How many Greek kings called themselves Zeus. One and only one. Clearly Zeus
>was a God but Jehovah is a mortal.

--
If a woman is driving to an abortion clinic and is the victim
of auto accident and the fetus dies, does the guilty party
get to deduct the cost of the abortion?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 188

Agamemnon

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 2:34:18 AM2/24/02
to

"Ivan Hodes" <sarcas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:20844aed.02022...@posting.google.com...

Egypt at the time was governed simultaneously by at least 2 opposing
Pharaohs at the time, one over Lower Egypt and one over Upper Egypt
(Ethiopia).

Based on on Manethos chronology Amenophis and Seti II reigned in Lower Egypt
against Merneptah in Upper Egypt.

Merneptah 1212-1202 (from Upper Egypt against...)
Amenophis (Amenemses) 1212-1206 (nominally over Lower Egypt)
Amenophis (Amenemses) 1206-1202 (exiled in Ethiopia)
Amenophis (Amenemses) 1202-1193 (from Ethiopia with...)
Seti II 1199-1193 (over all Egypt)
Merneptah Sipta 1193-1187 (Seti II murdered by his Syrian butler Bey, and
Merneptah Sipta usurps throne)

By the bibles chronology the Exodus occurs in exactly 1193 BC +/-3 years.

[The Bible states that Moses was born in the reign of Ramses II (who's city
the Israelites built) and then goes into exile and only returns to Egypt
when Ramses dies, so any date for the Exodus earlier than 1212 BC is
impossible.]

http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm

By Manethos chronology the Exodus occurs 13 years after Amenophis exile, or
in his 19th and final year, which occurs in 1193 BC assuming Ramess II dies
in 1212 BC.

An inscription in the name of Merneptah records him doing battle against the
Sea-Peoples in 1207 BC (his 5th year) which corroborates Manethos chronology
for the time of Amenophis exile.

Since the bible states the Exodus occurs in 1193 BC this must have been a
final expulsion of the remaining Sea Peoples.

Seti II is then murdered by this Syrian Butler Bey and Merneptah Sipta
usurps the throne, who is soon deposed by Seti II's widow Twosret 1187-1185
BC.

According Manetho Seti II was Amenemses son, but according to Encyclopaedia
Britannica, Amenemses opposed Seti II from Upper Egypt.

Thus either Amenemses or Merneptah Sipta are the "LORD GOD of Israel"
referred to in the bible. Osarsiph the high priest of Osiris was Arron
(though Manetho says he was Moses) and the Syrian butler Bey (Baal) the
murderer of Seti II was Moses (Tammuses = Baal) and also the so-called
biblical "Angel of Death" who the bible state killed Pharaohs son while he
was on the throne.

Merneptah Sipta may have in fact been Seti II's son and placed on the throne
by Bey while an infant.

Alternate Egyptian chronologies place the end of Seti II reign to 1198 BC so
the biblical reference to the "Angel of Death" killing Pharaohs son might
have been concocted by the forgers of the bible from the reference to the
murder of Siptah in Egyptian records.

SOURCES:

Manetho (reconstructed form various sections of Against Apion):

"Amenophis desired to become a spectator of the gods, as had Orus, one of
his predecessors in that kingdom, before him. He communicated his desire to
his namesake Amenophis, who was the son of Papis, and one that seemed to
partake of a divine nature, both as to wisdom and the knowledge of
futurities.

Amenophis the prophet told him that he might see the gods, if he would clear
the whole country of the lepers and of the other impure people. The king was
pleased with this injunction, and got together all that had any defect in
their bodies out of Egypt. He sent eighty thousand to those quarries which
are on the east side of the Nile, that they might work in them, and might be
separated from the rest of the Egyptians.

There were some of the learned priests that were polluted with the leprosy,
but Amenophis, the wise man and the prophet, was afraid that the gods would
be angry at him and at the king, if there should appear to have been
violence offered them. Out of his sagacity about futurities he foretold that
certain people would come to the assistance of these polluted wretches, and
would conquer Egypt, and keep it in their possession thirteen years.
However, he dared not tell the king of these things, but left a writing
behind him about all those matters, and then slew himself, which made the
king disconsolate.

After those that were sent to work in the quarries had continued in that
miserable state for a long while, the king was desired that he would set
apart the city Avaris, which was then left desolate of the Hyksos or foreign
kings, for their habitation and protection; which they had requested he
grant them. Now this city, according to the ancient theology, was Typho's
city. But when these men were gotten into it, in crowds, and found the place
fit for a revolt, they appointed themselves a ruler out of the priests of
Hellopolis, whose name was Osarsiph, and they took their oaths that they
would be obedient to him in all things.

He then, in the first place, made this law for them; that they should
neither worship the Egyptian gods, nor should abstain from any one of those
sacred animals which they have in the highest esteem, but kill and destroy
them all and that they should join themselves to nobody but to those that
were of this confederacy.

When he had made such laws as these, and many more such as were mainly
opposite to the customs of the Egyptians, he gave order that they should use
the multitude of the hands they had in building walls about their City, and
make themselves ready for a war with king Amenophis, while he did himself
take into his friendship the other priests, and those that were polluted
with them, and sent ambassadors to those foreign kings (Hyksos) who had been
driven out of the land by Tefilmosis to the city called Jerusalem; whereby
he informed them of his own affairs, and of the state of those others that
had been treated after such an ignominious manner, and desired that they
would come with one consent to his assistance in this war against Egypt. He
also promised that he would, in the first place, bring them back to their
ancient city and country Avaris, and provide a plentiful maintenance for
their multitude, and that he would protect them and fight for them as
occasion should require, and would easily reduce the country under their
dominion.

These foreign kings (Hyksos) were all very glad of this message, and came
away with alacrity all together, being in number two hundred thousand men;
and in a little time they came to Avaris.

Now Amenophis the king of Egypt, upon his being informed of their invasion,
was in great confusion, as calling to mind what Amenophis, the son of Papis,
had foretold him; and, in the first place, he assembled the multitude of the
Egyptians, and took counsel with their leaders, and sent for their holy
images to him, especially for those that were principally worshipped in
their temples, and gave a particular charge to the priests distinctly, that
they should hide the images of their gods with the utmost care.

He also sent his son Sethos, who was also named Ramesses, from his father
Rhampses, being but five years old, to a friend of his. He then passed on
with the rest of the Egyptians, being three hundred thousand of the most
warlike of them, against the enemy, who met them at Pelusium. Yet did he not
join battle with them; but thinking that would be to fight against the gods,
he returned back and came to Memphis, where he took Apis and the other holy
images which he had sent for to him, and presently marched into Ethiopia,
together with his whole army and multitude of Egyptians; for the king of
Ethiopia was under an obligation to him, on which account he received him,
and took care of all the multitude that was with him, while the country
supplied all that was necessary for the food of the men. He also allotted
cities and villages for this exile, that was to be from its beginning during
those fatally determined thirteen years. Moreover, he pitched a camp for his
Ethiopian army, as a guard to king Amenophis, upon the borders of Egypt. And
this was the state of things in Ethiopia.

But for the people of Jerusalem, they got the granaries of Egypt into their
possession, and perpetrated many of the most horrid actions there. When they
came down together with the polluted Egyptians, they treated the men in such
a barbarous manner, that those who saw how they subdued the aforementioned
country, and the horrid wickedness they were guilty of, thought it a most
dreadful thing; for they did not only set the cities and villages on fire,
but were not satisfied till they had been guilty of sacrilege, and destroyed
the images of the gods, and used them in roasting those sacred animals that
used to be worshipped, and forced the priests and prophets to be the
executioners and murderers of those animals, and then ejected them naked out
of the country.

The Egyptians themselves were the most guilty, because it was their priests
that contrived these things, and made the multitude take their oaths for
doing so.

It was reported that the priest, who ordained their polity and their laws,
was by birth of Hellopolls, and his name Osarsiph, from Osyris, who was the
god of Hellopolls; but that when he was gone over to these people, his name
was changed, and he was called Moses.

After this on the (sic.) thirteenth year, Amenophis returned back from
Ethiopia with a great army, as did his son Ahampses with another army also,
and both of them joined battle with the foreign kings (Hyksos) and the
polluted people, and beat them, and slew a great many of them, and pursued
them to the bounds of Syria. "

"Encyclopaedia Britannica (online version)

Sea People


Any of the groups of aggressive seafarers who invaded eastern Anatolia,
Syria, Palestine, Cyprus, and Egypt toward the end of the Bronze Age,
especially in the 13th century BC. They are held responsible for the
destruction of old powers such as the Hittite Empire. Because of the abrupt
break in ancient Near Eastern records as a result of the invasions, the
precise extent and origin of the upheavals remain uncertain. Principal but
one-sided evidence for the Sea Peoples is based on Egyptian texts and
illustrations; other important information comes from Hittite sources and
from archaeological data.

The Egyptians waged two wars against the Sea Peoples: the first, in the
fifth year of King Merneptah; the second, in the reign of Ramses III

Tentative identifications of the Sea Peoples listed in Egyptian documents
are as follows: Ekwesh, a group of Bronze Age Greeks (Achaeans; Ahhiyawa in
Hittite texts); Teresh, Tyrrhenians (Tyrsenoi), known to later Greeks as
sailors and pirates from Anatolia, ancestors of the Etruscans; Luka, a
coastal people of western Anatolia, also known from Hittite sources (their
name survives in classical Lycia on the southwest coast of Anatolia);
Sherden, probably Sardinians (the Sherden acted as mercenaries of the
Egyptians in the Battle of Kadesh, 1299 BC); Shekelesh, probably identical
with the Sicilian tribe called Siculi; Peleset, generally believed to refer
to the Philistines, who perhaps came from Crete and were the only major
tribe of the Sea Peoples to settle permanently in Palestine."

Further identifications of other Sea Peoples mentioned in the documents are
much more uncertain."


"Encyclopaedia Britannica (online version)

Siptah died 1198 BC

king of Egypt (reigned 1204-1198 BC).

Seti, the immediate successor of his father, Merneptah, was one of the last
rulers of the 19th dynasty, which was marked by short reigns, dynastic
intrigue, and usurpations. One of his most serious threats was a rebellion
by a usurper, Amenmeses, who claimed the kingship and acquired recognition
in Upper Egypt.

Upon his death, Seti was succeeded by Siptah.


>
> Ivan Hodes


M1594att Gi199wer

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 2:52:49 AM2/24/02
to
On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Agamemnon wrote:

>How can you claim that an inscription dating to 700 BC is Hebrew when the
>script most people know as "Hebrew" which is used in the MT, DID NOT EXIST
>until Hellenistic times, c.160 BC.

The "how can you" part can be answered.

While growing to maturity people learn many things they were told
when younger, suitable for their maturity, simply are not true.

Between adolescence and no later than age 35 they either choose to
search for the grain of truth for the rest of their lives or they realize
they must reject it all as the proponderance of evidence is against the
childhood stories.

Most choose to believe there must be a grain of truth rather than
the obvious. Most people do not think quickly enough to have the time to dig
into details.

--
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 419

M1258att Gi127wer

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 2:52:50 AM2/24/02
to

>Agamemnon wrote:

An admission of murderous desire is hardly a way to avoid the
stereotype of a zionist.

--
An example of a totally false assumption.
If it is not publically debated it is not an issue.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 535

M1647att Gi214wer

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 2:52:50 AM2/24/02
to
On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Bob Kolker wrote:

>Agamemnon wrote:

As with so many words in "hebrew" the same meaning must be applied
to all other usages of the word and have the same meaning.

Unique among languages is Hebrew. Its words have wildly different
meanings from their usage in context and also have a consistant meaning if
only one of the conflicting definitions is used. It is also unique in that
the wildly different meanings are those which support a religious
interpretation.

Oy Veh! What a language!

--
There is nothing beyond the dreams of avarice.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 482

M1390att Gi159wer

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 2:52:50 AM2/24/02
to
On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Bob Kolker wrote:

>Agamemnon wrote:

Curiouser and curiouser.

YHWH which in Hebrew is written HWHY ... but is not written
backwards in Hebrew while the other words are backwards ... you just have to
know which words to read forwards instead of backwards to satisfy the
theology.

--
Rock throwing children are a threat to the security of Israel.
Such an unstable country.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 740

M1578att Gi197wer

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 2:52:51 AM2/24/02
to
On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, BernardZ wrote:

>In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force>, mat31t@
>74giwersworld.org says...

>> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
>> stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets
>> some place in the Near East ...

>Check this book out

Appeal to authority? Get him to post here so we can discuss it with
him.

>What did the biblical writers know & when did they know it?
>By William G. Dever

>Most of the early writing would have been written on papyrus unfortunately
>it was perishable. However quite a bit has been found on broken pottery and
>carved in stone.

If the Torah were "original" it would have been written in
hieroglyphs or the fantasy of "perfect copies" of it would not exist.

--
Torah thumpers are a subset of Bible thumpers.
They have fewer of the same books.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 370

M1911att Gi255wer

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 2:52:51 AM2/24/02
to

>Agamemnon wrote:

Read Acts and never start a fight you can't finish.

Beyond that if pointing out the foundations of judaism is mythology
is antisemitism then anyone pointing out the foundations of christianity is
mythology is antichristian.

Both the pot and the kettle are black.

As to the subtext so many atheists are falsely claiming to be jews
that it makes you feel better.

You are an atheist. You are not a jew. There is no jewish blood.
Only religious dogma says you can be born a jew. Religious ritual cannot
make you a jew any more than birth.

Some day you have to grow up and accept you are what you are, an
atheist and not a jew even if they accept you because you are not anything
else as a religion. Their acceptance, even family acceptance, does not make
you a jew.

--
Why does Israel object when Palestinians fire
on their own land?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 793

M2569att Gi363wer

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 2:52:50 AM2/24/02
to
On 23 Feb 2002, Ivan Hodes wrote:

>Exodus 7:13-7:16

>"And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as
>Pharoah ha dsiad. And Pharaoh said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is
>hardened, he refuseth to let the peopel go. Get the unto Pharaoh in the
>morning; lo, he goeth out unto the water; and thou sahlt stand by the
>river's brink against he come; and th erod which was turned into a serpent
>shalt thou take in thine hand. and thou shalt say unto him, Pharoah of hte
>Hebrews hat sent me unto thee..."

As you may not have noticed there is a behind the scenes debate
going on for nearly a century as to using translations based upon archeology
without regard to prior translations. The debate is with regard to the
deviation from pre-scientific translations which have only increased over
the decades making the decision to go public even more difficult.

You cannot be forgiven having noticed is the "And he hardened
Pharaoh's heart." If you consider that a correct and valid translation then,
without any theological hoop jumping or inscrutable god invoking, you have
to see the problem Moses had was God asking him to do one thing and at the
same time making it hard for Moses to accomplish that task and then
punishing Pharaoh and all the Egpytians for doing what God make him do.

If you believe that is a correct translation when all the rest of
the story implies Pharaoh did it on his own then you have a serious problem
with "faith" over plain English.

From context that translation is false even you accept the context
of the story is true.

And then you use what no rational person can accept as a correct
translation to contradict a post on correct translations.

--
People who confuse anything from Hollywood with reality are
very low on the food chain.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 556

BernardZ

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 4:39:41 AM2/24/02
to
In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202240154590.27788-100000@force>, mat44t@
76giwersworld.org says...

> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, BernardZ wrote:
>
> >In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force>, mat31t@
> >74giwersworld.org says...
>
> >> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> >> stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets
> >> some place in the Near East ...
>
> >Check this book out
>
> Appeal to authority? Get him to post here so we can discuss it with
> him.

Yeah! Sure one of the greatest archeologist in the world, is going to
come to this forum, to debate with a known Nazi kook.


>
> >What did the biblical writers know & when did they know it?
> >By William G. Dever
>
> >Most of the early writing would have been written on papyrus unfortunately
> >it was perishable. However quite a bit has been found on broken pottery and
> >carved in stone.
>
> If the Torah were "original" it would have been written in
> hieroglyphs or the fantasy of "perfect copies" of it would not exist.

Why would ancient Jews use hieroglyphics?

Anonymous

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 4:56:38 AM2/24/02
to
> If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of any
> LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.

Huh, what about the 'Septaguinta' or translation of the Scripture or
Old Testament from Greek into Hebrew comissioned by the Library of
Alexandria in
Egypt? I think this was done before the wars of Judea with Antiochus
Epiphanes. I would have to look this up but I think this is in the
second century, or possibly the third, B.C. This was, also, ... a
translation.

> How many Greek kings called themselves Zeus. One and only one. Clearly Zeus
> was a God but Jehovah is a mortal.

I am not sure, but I think that the word 'Julius', in Julius Caesar,
derive from Juno, just as the word 'Hercules' derives from the words
'Glory of Hera'. Many Greek and Roman names derived from a lot of
sources, but many of them did derive from the Greek and Roman gods. I
am not sure, but I also think that the word 'Ramses' derives from the
word 'Ra', 'Seti' from 'Set', 'Nefretete' from 'Nephtys', 'Thutmose'
from 'Thoth' and so on. Many names regularly in use, even today,
derive from names in ancient mythologies.

BernardZ

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 5:20:25 AM2/24/02
to
In article <a57rem$qc1$1...@paris.btinternet.com>,
replace.wi...@hello.to says...

>
> "BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
> news:MPG.16e20a0e87bfd1b098976e@news...
> > In article <a576nn$an3$1...@paris.btinternet.com>,
> > replace.wi...@hello.to says...
> > >
> > > "M1065att Gi129wer" <mat...@74giwersworld.org> wrote in message
> > > news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force...
> > > > If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> > > > stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay
> tablets
> > > > some place in the Near East ...
> > >
> > > If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of
> any
> > > LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
> >
> > I have already in my previous posts showed you that this claim is false.
> > Why do you continue this nonsense. Why don't you check the Judean bench
> > tomb written in cursive Hebrew script dated the 7/6 century
>
> How can you claim that an inscription dating to 700 BC is Hebrew when the
> script most people know as "Hebrew" which is used in the MT, DID NOT EXIST
> until Hellenistic times, c.160 BC.

Read what I said. It was cursive Hebrew script. It dates back at least
to 10 century.


>
> The script of the MT is Jewish Square Script which is descended from Aramaic
> and has less relation to the script of these and other inscriptions of the
> period than it does to Greek.

You are confusing the letters with the script! Yes the Jewish Square
Script comes from Aramaic but the meaning comes from the cursive Hebrew
script.

I have seen German written with English letters this does not mean that
German = English.

>
> >
> > Yahweh (is) the God of the whole earth; the mountains of Judah belong to
> > him, to the God of Jerusalem.
>
> The inscription is either referring to king Ahaz, who in other inscriptions
> is called Yahweh or has been wrongly dated.
>
> "Ahaz (is) the king of the whole land; the mountains of Judah belong to him,
> to the king of Jerusalem."

As a translator you suck!

The Hebrew word for King is not the same as God.

The meaning is quite clear. Several other have been found. By the way
the seal of several Israel kings have been found and Ahaz does not equal
God.

Nor is it the only such tomb stone found!


>
> I would bet it is wrongly dated since there was NO Hebrew script until 160
> BC.

You are wrong. The date is 6/7 century.

>
> The book of Jeremiah clearly assonates the LORD with the Pharaoh of Egypt
> who is forced to give up his territories in Palestine to Nebuchadneser,
> including Tyre. Since the Trains NEVER worshiped the so-called "Jewish"
> deity it is obvious that it is PHARAOH who Jeremiah is referring to because
> Tyre was a possession of Egypt at the time when Necho II was Pharaoh. This
> was the time that the Phoenicians circumnavigate Africa to please Necho
> according to Herodotus.

It does not make sense and reads like nonsense.


>
> If the Jews were a circumcised people an worship only one god then how come
> Herodotus in completely unaware of either them or their religion ? Why
> doesn't Herodotus list them among the circumcised peoples or the troops of
> Xerxes which included everyone under his rule. Why doesn't Herodotus mention
> the uniqueness of monotheism like the Roman period writes do, because it was
> so unusual. Why doesn't Herodotus mention their new temple which was under
> construction at the time he was writing 440 BC. He travelled to Tyre at the
> time and if this was a copy of the temple at Tyre, to Herakles like that of
> Solomon then Herodotus would have mentioned it.

Herodotus wrote at a time when Jews were not important in areas that he
talked about. Nor did he talk about many other people in the area like
Moabites.


Mate all this has been explained to you many times, if you refuse to
accept facts, you become a spammer.

M1670att Gi213wer

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 5:53:42 AM2/24/02
to
On 24 Feb 2002, Anonymous wrote:

>> If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of any
>> LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.

>Huh, what about the 'Septaguinta' or translation of the Scripture or Old
>Testament from Greek into Hebrew comissioned by the Library of Alexandria
>in Egypt? I think this was done before the wars of Judea with Antiochus
>Epiphanes. I would have to look this up but I think this is in the second
>century, or possibly the third, B.C. This was, also, ... a translation.

Who, other than Josephus the Fablist ever said that happened? There
are no prior references to it therefore the septagint is the first version
of it. That is the rule which applies in all matters to all but the
religiously inclined.

I know this is hard for you but try to separate your belief training
from postings here.

--
Oh my God! Everyone has killed Kenny!

-- The Iron Webmaster, 79

M2456att Gi335wer

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 5:53:42 AM2/24/02
to
On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, BernardZ wrote:

>In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202240154590.27788-100000@force>, mat44t@
>76giwersworld.org says...

>> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, BernardZ wrote:

>> >In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force>, mat31t@
>> >74giwersworld.org says...

>> >> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
>> >> stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay
>> >> tablets some place in the Near East ...

>> >Check this book out

>> Appeal to authority? Get him to post here so we can discuss it with
>> him.

>Yeah! Sure one of the greatest archeologist in the world, is going to come
>to this forum, to debate with a known Nazi kook.

Appeal to authority has been a designated piece of shit for over
2000 years. If he won't be here, YOU defend your position without him. In
this debate it stands or falls upon _YOU_ and only you if you advance the
position.

>> >What did the biblical writers know & when did they know it? By William
>> >G. Dever

>> >Most of the early writing would have been written on papyrus
>> >unfortunately it was perishable. However quite a bit has been found on
>> >broken pottery and carved in stone.

>> If the Torah were "original" it would have been written in
>> hieroglyphs or the fantasy of "perfect copies" of it would not exist.

>Why would ancient Jews use hieroglyphics?

After 400 years in Egypt (according to the story) and coming from
what is modern Iraq, it is dumber than dog shit to think they would write
anything else like assuming Blacks in America would speak Zulu.

--
The US fought Germany in WWII because Germany
declared war on the US.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 30

Agamemnon

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 6:06:38 AM2/24/02
to

"BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
news:MPG.16e36970ad708ef498977b@news...

> In article <a57rem$qc1$1...@paris.btinternet.com>,
> replace.wi...@hello.to says...

> > >


> > > Yahweh (is) the God of the whole earth; the mountains of Judah belong
to
> > > him, to the God of Jerusalem.
> >
> > The inscription is either referring to king Ahaz, who in other
inscriptions
> > is called Yahweh or has been wrongly dated.
> >
> > "Ahaz (is) the king of the whole land; the mountains of Judah belong to
him,
> > to the king of Jerusalem."
>
> As a translator you suck!
>
> The Hebrew word for King is not the same as God.

BULLSHIT.

The Hebrew word form king Melech comes from the Phoenician Melquart which
means GOD. Thus the words for King and God are interchangable. Elohim means
both King and God. This is blatantly obvious since all the kings of Assyria,
Babylon, Syria-Palestine and Egypt styled themselves as Living Gods.

Since you fail to understand that basic structure of Hebrew it is point lese
addressing any of you other statements since they are all baloney.

Matt has already pointed out correctly that almost every word in the Hebrew
bible has at least two alternate meanings, the common meaning and the
meaning which had been MADE UP by the Rabbis to make the bible say whatever
they want it to say.

>
> The meaning is quite clear. Several other have been found. By the way
> the seal of several Israel kings have been found and Ahaz does not equal
> God.

Ahaz is given as Yahaz. His so-called son Hezekiah is given in inscriptions
as Heziyahu. Ahab is called both Yahua and Yahweh in inscriptions.

It is clear that YHWH and its variants was a standard declination denoting
masculine gender and equivalent to the Greek ending "on" and therefore NOT a
reference to any god but to a man. Nobody would translate Argyron as "Silver
of God" except a Jewish religious fanatic.

From the comparison of Hezekiah and Heziyahu it is aboudently obvious that
"yahu" is equivalent to "kiah" both of which are corruption of the Greek
"Ion" which means "native" or "land man" (Robert Graves) ie. gia yion.

Agamemnon

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 6:13:43 AM2/24/02
to

"M1390att Gi159wer" <mat...@76giwersworld.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202240232130.27788-100000@force...

> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Bob Kolker wrote:
>
> >Agamemnon wrote:
>
> >> How did the "M" of Moreh become a "T".
>
> >Mutation to the future form of the verb, you puss filled ingoramous. You
> >know not a paritcle, - ayn pratim - of Hebrew and you are a scum filled
> >anti-semite to boot.
>
> Curiouser and curiouser.
>
> YHWH which in Hebrew is written HWHY ... but is not written
> backwards in Hebrew while the other words are backwards ... you just have
to
> know which words to read forwards instead of backwards to satisfy the
> theology.

Obvioulsy YHWH or HWHY is a later insertion but people who could not even
speak Hebrew but just copied the symbols down and wrote from right to left
like the Greeks, in the same way that the people who printed the first Latin
bibles could not understand a word of Latin.

Agamemnon

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 6:48:15 AM2/24/02
to

"Anonymous" <ax1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2636c3ae.02022...@posting.google.com...

> > If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of
any
> > LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
>
> Huh, what about the 'Septaguinta' or translation of the Scripture or
> Old Testament from Greek into Hebrew comissioned by the Library of
> Alexandria in
> Egypt? I think this was done before the wars of Judea with Antiochus
> Epiphanes. I would have to look this up but I think this is in the
> second century, or possibly the third, B.C. This was, also, ... a
> translation.

The Septuagint was placed in the Library of Alexandrie in 262 BC and was
commissioned by Antiochus Theos as a chronology of Syria-Palestine based on
the Egyptian Annals. It had NOTHING whatsoever with any Jews since these
people did not exist until the time of Judas Maccabee who invented the
entire religion by Plagiarising the Septuagint and concocting the story of
the Exodus by dissembling the text which originally referred to the
expulsion of the Greek Sea Peoples and combining it with Apollonius standard
chronology which was devised in 262 BC when he became the first Chief
Librarian which was later used by Diodorus. This is why the date of the
so-called Exodus is EXACTLY the same as the date of the Trojan War 1193 BC !

>
> > How many Greek kings called themselves Zeus. One and only one. Clearly
Zeus
> > was a God but Jehovah is a mortal.
>
> I am not sure, but I think that the word 'Julius', in Julius Caesar,
> derive from Juno, just as the word 'Hercules' derives from the words

Wrong. Iulius Caesar derives from the Greek word "Ilios" meaning "Sun" and
the Assyrian "Hussur" or "Assur" meaning "King" or "God". The use of these
titles was a standard practise for the Hittites and Teukarians from which
Julius Caesar claimed to be descended from.

> 'Glory of Hera'. Many Greek and Roman names derived from a lot of

Herakles original name was Palamon (Baal-Amon). The Mycenaean Greek
equivalent to Baal-Amon in 1250 BC was Wanakas and Herakles was a corruption
of Wanakas in the local dialect.

Similarly Paris the son of Priam was also called Alexander by the Greeks
since Paris was the same name as Belus or Baal and Alex a derivative of
Wanax was the equivalent in the Macedonian dialect. The last part of the
name Ander just means man.

> sources, but many of them did derive from the Greek and Roman gods. I
> am not sure, but I also think that the word 'Ramses' derives from the
> word 'Ra', 'Seti' from 'Set', 'Nefretete' from 'Nephtys', 'Thutmose'
> from 'Thoth' and so on. Many names regularly in use, even today,
> derive from names in ancient mythologies.

Ramses is a corruption of the same root as Djhtmoses, and Ahmoses which is
the name "Tammuz" or "Dumuzi". If Ramses I had come from the same part of
Egypt as the 18th dynasty then he would have been called Tutmoses V. If he
had come form Mesopotamia then he would have been called Tammuz. But in his
dialect Tammus was Ramses.

Bob Kolker

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 7:59:34 AM2/24/02
to

Agamemnon wrote:

Aggie, is this alternate history, WI or is it your usual anti-semitic drool.

Bob Kolker


Bob Kolker

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 8:05:38 AM2/24/02