Evidence- Celts are Israeli?
James
I have seen a few things written saying that Celts were once thought to
be from Israel originally, and not indo-european. I want to know is
there any evidence for this?? I know that celtic language is sometimes
said to be more in the semitic/arab branch than the euro branch.
Anything else? What do modern scientists and anthropologists think the
chances of this are, or don't they rate it much at all? it is a very
interesting question I find. (I also find it strange that people with
such fair skin and red hair would have come from in the middle east, but
this could have changed a little after they left the area, if they did).
Thank you! Please reply if you can add anything at all for me because i
know not much about it.
James
Susan Cohen
James wrote:
> (I also find it strange that people with
> such fair skin and red hair would have come from in the middle east, but
> this could have changed a little after they left the area, if they did).
Not that I believe any of this, but I have to say that the original
Celts were small & dark - it's only after the injection of the
Viking peoples that they get tall & fair.
Sudan
Joseph Hertzlinger
>Hello everyone
>I have seen a few things written saying that Celts were once thought to
>be from Israel originally, and not indo-european. I want to know is
>there any evidence for this?? I know that celtic language is sometimes
>said to be more in the semitic/arab branch than the euro branch.
>
>Anything else? What do modern scientists and anthropologists think the
>chances of this are, or don't they rate it much at all? it is a very
>interesting question I find. (I also find it strange that people with
>such fair skin and red hair would have come from in the middle east, but
>this could have changed a little after they left the area, if they did).
>
>Thank you! Please reply if you can add anything at all for me because i
>know not much about it.
On the one hand, the theory is usually considered to be a crackpot one.
On the other hand, it seems that a disproportionate number of converts
on scj are of Celtic descent. (That might be coincidental.)
Maybe the appropriate answer is: Not yet.
Susan Cohen
Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> "The Gauls are very tall with white skin and blond hair, not only
> blond by nature but more so by the artificial means they use to
> lighten their hair" - Diodorus Siculus
Oh, I forgot this - thanks!!!
> Dio Cassius describes Boudica as having 'bright red hair'.
>
> Not all Celts look like Kerrymen.
Solitaire
Hello everyone
I have seen a few things written saying that Celts were once thought to
be from Israel originally, and not indo-european. I want to know is
there any evidence for this?? I know that celtic language is sometimes
said to be more in the semitic/arab branch than the euro branch.
...
Anything else? What do modern scientists and anthropologists think the
chances of this are, or don't they rate it much at all? it is a very
interesting question I find. (I also find it strange that people with
such fair skin and red hair would have come from in the middle east, but
this could have changed a little after they left the area, if they did).
As for the red hair, I believe that much of that is attributed to the influx of Scandanavian blood into Celtic tribal societies in the British Isles through the Vikings, etc. But the other genetic attributes make it a tenuous connection at best.
Thank you! Please reply if you can add anything at all for me because i
know not much about it.
Leis gach beannachd,James
Solitaire
--
Gur math thèid leibh
Saor Alba
Hall
Romans documented this, and I think the Greeks also did. You
must be thinking of the Roman men, Susan Cohen.
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
tryin...@my-deja.com
Hall <warlord30...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> The Celts have always been tall and fair skinned, even the
> Romans documented this, and I think the Greeks also did. You
> must be thinking of the Roman men, Susan Cohen.
>
"Celtic" is a linguistic/cultural term, like most terms we use for
"ethnic" groups. Celts spread their culture out from middle european
heartland to british isles and gaul/france. IIUC, inhabitants of
France, especially south, were relatively dark, those of british isles
relatively light, probabably prior to celtic expansion as well.
tryinghard
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Albert Reingewirtz
wrote:
When I went to school in France as a child every history book started
like this:
"Our ancestors the Gauls, those blond giants ..."
The funny thing is that France has an extremely centralized system of
education. As a result this little Jewish boy studied that his
ancestors where "Gauls blond giants." Of course the same history book
were used in the colonies in Africa, New Guinea, and every island
"owned" by France at the time. Picture ;little black children seating
in a hut and repeating "Our ancestors the Gauls, those blond giants
..." By the way, the next sentence to the glory of "our ancestors"?
"They wore pants!
INGER E. JOHANSSON
Solitaire <tig...@fix.net> skrev i diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:38C35E6D...@fix.net...
Steven & Julie Akins of that Ilk
James wrote in message <38C33B...@nospam.com>...
>Hello everyone
>I have seen a few things written saying that Celts were once thought to
>be from Israel originally, and not indo-european. I want to know is
>there any evidence for this?
No, but the Galatians were Celts. The Celts are probably more closely akin
to the ancient Persians than they were to the Jews.
Steven Akins of that Ilk
sja...@sonet.net
Hall
<nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone
> I have seen a few things written saying that Celts
> were once thought to
> be from Israel originally, and not indo-european. I
> want to know is
> language is sometimes
> said to be more in the semitic/arab branch than the
> euro branch.
OR maybe the Isrealis are brached off the Celts...
Douglas B. O'Morain
>
> James wrote:
>
> > (I also find it strange that people with
> > such fair skin and red hair would have come from in the middle east, but
> > this could have changed a little after they left the area, if they did).
>
> Celts were small & dark - it's only after the injection of the
> Viking peoples that they get tall & fair.
A lot of Celts are small and dark. My father's entire family never
topped 5'8 (my father was 5'5"). All had black hair. Some had
blue eyes, some brown, and some green. Personally, my skin is
actually very sallow, and I rarely burn. When I am completely
pale (i.e., like now, in the middle of winter), I am actually
several shades darker than the palest my Assyrian (100%--born
in Bagdad) sister-in-law gets.
But here's something that our esteemed Mr. Mac Cuinneagáin may
even find interesting: the family last name is "Moran," which
is also a word in Hebrew that is used for the evergreen plant
viburnum that grows in thickets. Apparently there is even a
Moran community settlement in the Galilee.
But it gets better. Not too long ago, I was sent a number of
postcards from an aquainence in Ireland which had the Moran
family crest on it. The crest is made up of three stars...
six pointed stars. (In yellow on a field of blue, if you're
interested.)
It has often caused me to wonder. One of the other lost tribes?
Who can say?
Doug
Albert Reingewirtz
<dou...@cisco.com> wrote:
Hey stupid There is also a dog name spot.
Douglas B. O'Morain
>
> Douglas B. O'Morain wrote:
>
> >But here's something that our esteemed Mr. Mac Cuinneagáin may
> >even find interesting: the family last name is "Moran," which
> >is also a word in Hebrew that is used for the evergreen plant
> >viburnum that grows in thickets. Apparently there is even a
> >Moran community settlement in the Galilee.
>
Okay, I give up; what *about* the Cohens?
Doug
jim irvine
> >I have seen a few things written saying that Celts were once thought to
> >be from Israel originally, and not indo-european. I want to know is
>
> No, but the Galatians were Celts. The Celts are probably more closely akin
> to the ancient Persians than they were to the Jews.
>
> Steven Akins of that Ilk
> sja...@sonet.net
The "Celts" are, and have always been a linguistic group, not a racial
type hence they could be small and dark, tall and blonde, small and
blonde, tall and dark, middle sized and green, tall OR small and orange
etc etc etc This has been spelled out sooo many times on this NG that I
am almost sick of seeing it.
JIm
dltjxx
>>thought to be from Israel originally, and not indo-european.
>Only among British Israelite fantasists.
>Gearóid Mac Cuinneagáin
The origins are earlier, and no doubt due to the Xianisation of the
British Isles.
The Lebor Gabala Erenn combines ancient Irish legends with
biblical legends, and "demonstrated to [the Irish] that they
too were descendants of Adam, and that the Bibilical theophany
had to do with their destiny. And there can be no doubt that it
fulfilled a need[...] This work of ... linking up their diverse
traditions with those of the Hebrews ... was, of course, going
on throughout Christendom, and it was achieved for [the Welsh]
by Nennius and Geoffrey of Monmouth." --Rees, Celtic Heritage(1961),
p 96-7.
As the story runs, the eight sons of Mil, grandsons of Noah via
his son Yaphet, journey through Egypt, Crete and Sicily to Spain,
see from a tall tower a "fair land" across the sea, send one of
their number to investigate; when he's killed by the inhabitants,
they invade to avenge his death, and take Ireland from the Tuatha
De Danaan.
What's of interest is that the earliest inhabitants of the British
Isles are thought to have arrived there via the Iberian peninsula.
Also, Egyptian as well as Mycenaean artifacts were found in the
Stonehenge and Woodhenge locales.
As to the thread header, the Celts were strictly European. The
above, however, is intriguing.
Deborah
dltjxx
>>(I also find it strange that people with such fair skin and
>>red hair would have come from in the middle east, but this
>>could have changed a little after they left the area, if they
>>did).
Susan Cohen writes:
>Not that I believe any of this, but I have to say that the original
>Celts were small & dark - it's only after the injection of the
>Viking peoples that they get tall & fair.
>Susan
Ancient writers attest to the stature and fair coloring of the
Celts. The aboriginal inhabitants of the British Isles were
a small (possibly dark) people who arrived at the end of the last
ice age; it was this aboriginal people who constructed the famous
Stonehenge and Woodhenge, and seem to have had trade links with
Mycenae and Egypt. They were displaced and pushed into Scotland,
Wales and Cornwall over a period of several centuries by successive
waves of Celts from the Continent.
Deborah
dltjxx
>blond by nature but more so by the artificial means they use to
>lighten their hair" - Diodorus Siculus
>Dio Cassius describes Boudica as having 'bright red hair'.
>Not all Celts look like Kerrymen.
>--
>Gearóid Mac Cuinneagáin
What, or who, are Kerrymen?
Deborah
Susan Cohen
Albert Reingewirtz wrote:
> Hey stupid There is also a dog name spot.
I hope you mean the original poster, & not the one whose
post to which you replied. The original poster had the
whacky ideas, not the last poster.
Susan
dltjxx
>education. As a result this little Jewish boy studied that his
>ancestors where "Gauls blond giants." Of course the same history book
>were used in the colonies in Africa, New Guinea, and every island
>"owned" by France at the time. Picture little black children seating
>in a hut and repeating "Our ancestors the Gauls, those blond giants
>..." By the way, the next sentence to the glory of "our ancestors"?
>"They wore pants!
Don't forget Rimbaud's praise of Celts: they buttered their hair.
Deborah
mei...@qqqerols.com
<jim.i...@virgin.net> posted:
>
>
>The "Celts" are, and have always been a linguistic group, not a racial
>type hence they could be small and dark, tall and blonde, small and
>blonde, tall and dark, middle sized and green, tall OR small and orange
>etc etc etc This has been spelled out sooo many times on this NG that I
>am almost sick of seeing it.
>
What's fun in threads like this is trying to guess from which ng comes
the perspective and the post. This one sounds like it comes from
scceltic.
>JIm
mei...@QQQerols.com
e-mail by removing QQQ
Susan Cohen
dltjxx wrote:
> >James wrote:
> >>(I also find it strange that people with such fair skin and
> >>red hair would have come from in the middle east, but this
> >>could have changed a little after they left the area, if they
> >>did).
>
> Susan Cohen writes:
> >Not that I believe any of this, but I have to say that the original
> >Celts were small & dark - it's only after the injection of the
> >Viking peoples that they get tall & fair.
> >Susan
>
> Ancient writers attest to the stature and fair coloring of the
> Celts. The aboriginal inhabitants of the British Isles were
> a small (possibly dark) people who arrived at the end of the last
> ice age;
Ooops - that's who I meant. "Original Celts" - how silly!
> it was this aboriginal people who constructed the famous
> Stonehenge and Woodhenge, and seem to have had trade links with
> Mycenae and Egypt. They were displaced and pushed into Scotland,
> Wales and Cornwall over a period of several centuries by successive
> waves of Celts from the Continent.
So it was the invasion of the Celts, rather than the Scandinavians,
that changed the local indigenous population. Okay!
Susan
jim irvine
>
>
> Susan Cohen writes:
> >Not that I believe any of this, but I have to say that the original
> >Celts were small & dark - it's only after the injection of the
> >Viking peoples that they get tall & fair.
> >Susan
>
> Ancient writers attest to the stature and fair coloring of the
> Celts. The aboriginal inhabitants of the British Isles were a small > (possibly dark) people who arrived at the end of the last ice age;
If the 'ancient' writers attest to the fairness etc of the Celts who
says the 'aboriginal' inhabitants of the British Isles are dark??
(I do not necessarily disagree with what you think they look like - just
wondering about your source)
it was this aboriginal people who constructed the famous
> Stonehenge and Woodhenge, and seem to have had trade links with
> Mycenae and Egypt. They were displaced and pushed into Scotland,
> Wales and Cornwall over a period of several centuries by successive
> waves of Celts from the Continent.
>
> Deborah
Now I really do disagree!!
???? 1. There are no known Mycenaean or Egyptian links with
Stonehenge apart from a carving of a dagger? on one of the stones which
looks vaguely like a Mycenaean one
2. By the Mycenaean period (very roughly 1600-1200 BC) Stonehenge was
over 1000 years old. The stones were set up even before the Pyramids of
Egypt. Why should the civilised Brits trade with barbarians in the
East??
JIm
Susan Cohen
Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> >So it was the invasion of the Celts, rather than the Scandinavians,
> >that changed the local indigenous population. Okay!
>
> (1) Its questionable whether "invasion" is an accurate term, depending
> on what you mean by it.
Ah - yes.
> (2) The indigenous population remained largely unchanged.
Over the course of generations? From then to now?
Susan
dltjxx
>>What, or who, are Kerrymen?
>
>Kerry is a county in Ireland.
>Gearóid Mac Cuinneagáin
I'm aware of that. But what about the appearance of Kerrymeb?
Deborah
Luke
>I have seen a few things written saying that Celts were once thought to
>be from Israel originally, and not indo-european. I want to know is
>said to be more in the semitic/arab branch than the euro branch.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ROTFL!!!!!
+-+-+-+
N Everflame-Me
Luke
writes
>Not that I believe any of this, but I have to say that the original
>Celts were small & dark - it's only after the injection of the
>Viking peoples that they get tall & fair.
Actually, the Romans admired the Gauls for being tall and fair (unlike
themselves), and this was about 800 years before Viking culture even
existed.
+-+-+-+
N Everflame-Me
Luke
<dlt...@ix.netcom.com> writes
>Don't forget Rimbaud's praise of Celts: they buttered their hair.
Ugh, if someone said I had hair THAT greasy I would take it as an
insult! :)
+-+-+-+
N Everflame-Me
Luke
<Ger@r.d> writes
>& don't forget the Cohens...
Of Sacha Baron fame.
+-+-+-+
N Everflame-Me
Luke
<jim.i...@virgin.net> writes
>The "Celts" are, and have always been a linguistic group, not a racial
>type hence they could be small and dark, tall and blonde, small and
>blonde, tall and dark, middle sized and green, tall OR small and orange
>etc etc etc This has been spelled out sooo many times on this NG that I
>am almost sick of seeing it.
Really depends on who's theory you believe, whether it's the late
nineties alternative one (made famous by Simon James) or the
conventional one. My personal belief is somewhere between the two.
+-+-+-+
N Everflame-Me
Luke
Reingewirtz <albertre...@access1.net> writes
>Hey stupid There is also a dog name spot.
Uhoh we got a looney among us.
+-+-+-+
N Everflame-Me
Susan Cohen
Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> Douglas B. O'Morain wrote:
>
> >Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> >>
> >> & don't forget the Cohens...
> >
> >Okay, I give up; what *about* the Cohens?
>
> Very musical they were. Their father thanks you, their mother thanks
> you, their sister thanks you...
"Ah, *here* we pronounce it 'Co-HAN'."
(Barry Fitzgerald in "The Quiet Man", John Wayne. Maureen O'Hara, 1953)
Susan
Susan Cohen
Luke wrote:
> Actually, the Romans admired the Gauls for being tall and fair (unlike
> themselves), and this was about 800 years before Viking culture even
> existed.
Yes - we've already established that I mis-spoke. :-)
Susan
Joseph Hertzlinger
>Hello everyone
>I have seen a few things written saying that Celts were once thought to
>be from Israel originally, and not indo-european. I want to know is
>there any evidence for this?? I know that celtic language is sometimes
>said to be more in the semitic/arab branch than the euro branch.
>
>Anything else? What do modern scientists and anthropologists think the
>chances of this are, or don't they rate it much at all? it is a very
>interesting question I find. (I also find it strange that people with
>such fair skin and red hair would have come from in the middle east, but
>this could have changed a little after they left the area, if they did).
>
>Thank you! Please reply if you can add anything at all for me because i
>know not much about it.
From http://www.reptiles.org/~madrev/Potato/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm:
|* NOTE: It is actually erroneous to refer to the Irish as Celts,
|though we do so because our readers may not be aware of the
|distinction. Although the Irish may have some Celtic blood in them,
|their island was beset by the same waves of invasion as England was.
|Therefore, they are just as much Saxon, Viking, or Normand as they are
|Celt. Consequently, their claim on Northern Ireland is as ludicrous
|as Norway or Normandy laying claim it. However, it is also a fact,
|suppressed from our schools and from the controlled media, that the
|Celts migrated from as far as Eastern Europe, and possibly into the
|steppes of Russia. Therefore, there can be no more doubt: revisionist
|research has proved conclusively that the true Celts are in fact EAST
|EUROPEAN JEWS!
James
>The "Celts" are, and have always been a linguistic group, not a racial
>type hence they could be small and dark, tall and blonde, small and
>blonde, tall and dark, middle sized and green, tall OR small and orange
>etc etc etc This has been spelled out sooo many times on this NG that I
>am almost sick of seeing it.
I was referring to the group of people who originally spoke a Celtic
language, while it is technically possible (and politically correct to
say) some were black haired and very tanned skin it must have been
*extremely* rare as most were red haired by all accounts and proud of
it. I am mostly celtic and i have red hair.
James
> |* NOTE: It is actually erroneous to refer to the Irish as Celts,
> |though we do so because our readers may not be aware of the
> |distinction. Although the Irish may have some Celtic blood in them,
> |their island was beset by the same waves of invasion as England was.
> |Therefore, they are just as much Saxon, Viking, or Normand as they are
> |Celt. Consequently, their claim on Northern Ireland is as ludicrous
> |as Norway or Normandy laying claim it. However, it is also a fact,
> |suppressed from our schools and from the controlled media, that the
> |Celts migrated from as far as Eastern Europe, and possibly into the
> |steppes of Russia. Therefore, there can be no more doubt: revisionist
> |research has proved conclusively that the true Celts are in fact EAST
> |EUROPEAN JEWS!
That is very interesting thank you. But did Celts migrate FROM eastern
europe or TO eastern europe? Remember IE peoples all came from eastern
europe, I think. But generally speaking celts do look more Jewish than
other IE people facially. Any blood tests ever been done betwen the two
groups?
Vance McAlister
a better phrase. The Celtic La Tene culture dominated central Europe,
but this included numerous peoples from various sources. It may have
started with one particular people or tribe, but quickly extended over
the continent. The breadth of this "realm" was great and many diverse
tribes soon adopted the language and cultural aspects. These peoples,
before and after, were constantly migrating around and the culture and
language spread to various places. As other cultures came to dominate,
they were left with the hinterlands of Scotland, Ireland, Wales,
Brittany, etc. Since these peoples tended to be of "northern" European
groups, they were very often fair, but when the culture extended into
Spain, for example, things continued to blend. The Irish seem to be a
mixture of these Celt-Iberians, Norse from the invasions (thus many
fair) and a heavy influx of Norman from the later conquest. The Irish
culture was Gaelic, but there is no particular racial stock that can be
called Celtic. As a descendent from the Gaelic culture, I am not
spouting PC dogma, but the simple facts as I have read them.
James <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:38C646...@nospam.com...
Luke
+-+-+-+
N Everflame-Me
Luke
>That is very interesting thank you. But did Celts migrate FROM eastern
>europe or TO eastern europe? Remember IE peoples all came from eastern
>europe, I think. But generally speaking celts do look more Jewish than
>other IE people facially. Any blood tests ever been done betwen the two
>groups?
Celts do not look any more Jewish than other Indo-European groups, in
fact I would go as far as to say they look less Jewish than say Slavs or
Italics. Jews are Semitic, Celts are Indo-European, there is a f***ing
big difference.
<sarcasm>
But wait... I was wrong! The Celtic religion is kinda similar to
JUDAISM!!! They MUST be Hebrews!! And look at their language... it's
kinda similar to HEBREW!!!! OHMIGOD THEY ARE!!! THEY'RE ISRAELIS!!!
<sarcasm>
+-+-+-+
N Everflame-Me
Joseph Hertzlinger
From elswhere on the same site:
|Truth has no need of reality.
Susan Cohen
Vance McAlister wrote:
> You are missing the point. There is no Celtic "bloodstock" for want of
> a better phrase.
I'd have to day that there's a much more specific "Celtic
bloodstock" - okay, as most people understand it -
than "Jewish bloodstock."
That's an even bigger point more people are missing.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Luke wrote:
> In article <38C646...@nospam.com>, James <nos...@nospam.com> writes
> >That is very interesting thank you. But did Celts migrate FROM eastern
> >europe or TO eastern europe? Remember IE peoples all came from eastern
> >europe, I think. But generally speaking celts do look more Jewish than
> >other IE people facially. Any blood tests ever been done betwen the two
> >groups?
>
> Celts do not look any more Jewish than other Indo-European groups, in
> fact I would go as far as to say they look less Jewish than say Slavs or
> Italics.
And just how do Jews look?
> Jews are Semitic,
Well, that gives me your answer to my above question.
However, it is incorrect - unless, of course, we're going
to discuss "Semitic" as we are "Celtic, i.e., in terms of being
a language group. Then I have to ask - "How does a
language group look?"
> Celts are Indo-European, there is a f***ing
> big difference.
So what about Celtic Jews?
Susan
Susan Cohen
Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> >So what about Celtic Jews?
>
> Áigh, bheith! :)
Top o' the Shabbos to ye.
Susan
Douglas B. O'Morain
>
> Please tell me you don't believe this.
What I'm trying to figure out is why it bugs you so much,
honestly. I mean, let's go the limit, and say that what ho,
some folks from the middle east did migrate all the way to
Ireland on the order of 2500 years ago. Why is this so
bothersome to you?
After all, it was only in the last few years that they found
skeletal remains in South America that were too old for them
to have been decendants of folks who migrated down from
North America. This was a kick in the pants of some
anthropologists, and may yet change our view of how folks
got about in the long ago, but so what?
No need to get all bent out of shape about it, it seems to me.
Doug
jim irvine
>
> Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> >So what about Celtic Jews?
>
> Áigh, bheith! :)
>
> Gerard Cunningham
> abardubh at wwa dot com
> Tá m'aerbhád lán d'eascanna
And according to the Clancy Brothers there was always:-
"I'm a Jew, Sir, I'm a Jew , Sir
That came over to stay
And me name it is
Moses Ri-tooreo-eye-ay;"
Jim
Jonathan K.
>Hello everyone
>I have seen a few things written saying that Celts were once thought to
>be from Israel originally, and not indo-european. I want to know is
>there any evidence for this?? I know that celtic language is sometimes
>said to be more in the semitic/arab branch than the euro branch.
I can only testify as someone who speaks some Irish Gaelic and fairly
good Hebrew. The two language systems are sufficiently different that
it's hard to imagine they originated on the same planet. I've never
heard that the Brythonic languages were any closer to the Semitic than
the Goidelic (of which Irish is one) are.
--
Jonathan K.
Brant Gibbard
>Susan Cohen wrote:
>
>>So what about Celtic Jews?
>
>Áigh, bheith! :)
ROTFLMFAO!!!
Brant Gibbard
bgib...@inforamp.net
http://home.inforamp.net/~bgibbard/gen
Toronto, Ont.
Susan Cohen
"Jonathan K." wrote:
> I can only testify as someone who speaks some Irish Gaelic and fairly
> good Hebrew. The two language systems are sufficiently different that
> it's hard to imagine they originated on the same planet.
I was hoping we'd hear from an expert (or "an incredible
simulation") on the subject. Thanks!
> I've never
> heard that the Brythonic languages were any closer to the Semitic than
> the Goidelic (of which Irish is one) are.
Don't give him any ideas....
Susan
Vance McAlister
historical validity yet is the subject of many books, theories, etc.
Any true historian has a very strong aversion to dissemination of false
histories and the greater the dissemintation, the greater the annoyance.
If people were not actually writing books about it and thus convincing
unwitting readers, it would raise much less antagonism and disdain.
Douglas B. O'Morain <dou...@cisco.com> wrote in message
news:38C74999...@cisco.com...
Luke
writes
>And just how do Jews look?
Kinda like Jews....
>Well, that gives me your answer to my above question.
>However, it is incorrect - unless, of course, we're going
>to discuss "Semitic" as we are "Celtic, i.e., in terms of being
>a language group. Then I have to ask - "How does a
>language group look?"
Urm, kinda like a language group...
>So what about Celtic Jews?
You mean half Celts/half Jews, or Celts who practise Judaism
+-+-+-+
N Everflame-Me
Luke
<dou...@cisco.com> writes
>What I'm trying to figure out is why it bugs you so much,
>honestly. I mean, let's go the limit, and say that what ho,
>some folks from the middle east did migrate all the way to
>Ireland on the order of 2500 years ago. Why is this so
>bothersome to you?
It's not bothersome at all. I just have a problem with ridiculous
theories, like that aliens built Atlantis and taught all civilisations
everything, and (funnily enough) that there's a hollow Earth and this
proves the "dominance" of "Aryans" over Jews.
If it were remotely possible, I might give it some thought, but since it
isn't, I'll defend the original truth as best I can.
Now, I'll presume that the conventional theory is true (that the Celts
are a racial grouping), and say this: THE CELTS CAME FROM HALLSTAT. We
*know* this. To say that they came from Israel is like saying the
Chinese came from Iran - absurd.
>After all, it was only in the last few years that they found
>skeletal remains in South America that were too old for them
>to have been decendants of folks who migrated down from
>North America. This was a kick in the pants of some
>anthropologists, and may yet change our view of how folks
>got about in the long ago, but so what?
Yes, so what. Exactly my point.
>No need to get all bent out of shape about it, it seems to me.
I'm not.
+-+-+-+
N Everflame-Me
Susan Cohen
Luke wrote:
> In article <38C6BA67...@his.com>, Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com>
> writes
> >And just how do Jews look?
>
> Kinda like Jews....
Which means what?
> >Well, that gives me your answer to my above question.
> >However, it is incorrect - unless, of course, we're going
> >to discuss "Semitic" as we are "Celtic, i.e., in terms of being
> >a language group. Then I have to ask - "How does a
> >language group look?"
>
> Urm, kinda like a language group...
Do explain.
> >So what about Celtic Jews?
>
> You mean half Celts/half Jews
There's no such thing, thanks.
> , or Celts who practise Judaism
Or Celts who are good at it.
Luke
writes
>There's no such thing, thanks.
Who says?
>Or Celts who are good at it.
Blahdi blah.
+-+-+-+
N Everflame-Me
Susan Cohen
Luke wrote:
> In article <38C80E00...@his.com>, Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com>
> writes
> >There's no such thing, thanks.
>
> Who says?
Everyone who knows better.
Let's put it another way - do you ever refer to
people as being half Catholic?
> >Or Celts who are good at it.
>
> Blahdi blah.
Ah - now I understand. You're a moron.
Sorry to have bothered you.
Susan Cohen
Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> Luke wrote:
>
> >>So what about Celtic Jews?
> >
> >You mean half Celts/half Jews, or Celts who practise Judaism
>
> What's the difference?
The difference is that the latter creature could
exist, the former not.
Susan
Douglas B. O'Morain
>
> I think the problem is that has very little liklihood of having any
> historical validity yet is the subject of many books, theories, etc.
> Any true historian has a very strong aversion to dissemination of false
> histories and the greater the dissemintation, the greater the annoyance.
> If people were not actually writing books about it and thus convincing
> unwitting readers, it would raise much less antagonism and disdain.
I am perfectly happy to just go on my merry way, honest, but I'm still waiting
to see *any* evidence, pro or con, from folks who know what they're
talking about. (A category into which I myself do not fall on this
particular subject.) We've seen mention of one book in the "pro" category,
and no books in the "con" category. We've seen lots of humorous remarks
(and scorn), but no pointers to linguistic, anthropological, or historical
sources that could actually give us an idea of how silly (or not)
the theory is. No quotes from published articles, learned or otherwise.
No references to "The works of Professor MacGoogly, the noted expert
on Celtic anthropological linguistics." Heck, not even a "read the
s.c.c. FAQ, ya dumb goons!"
I'm in Susan's camp, personally: I was just hoping to hear an opinion
from someone who knew something about it, rather than a lot of
variations on "It's a silly idea."
Ah well. Hope springs eternal.
Doug
rick
>
> Chinese came from Iran - absurd.
>
>
They came from somewhere, why not Iran?
Homo Sapiens migrated west to east from africa.
I didn't mention this to give creedence to Israeli Celts.
dltjxx
>>Celts do not look any more Jewish than other Indo-European groups,
>>in fact I would go as far as to say they look less Jewish than say
>>Slavs or Italics.
>And just how do Jews look?
I've always thought <chuckle> Italian-type persons looked Jewish.
Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> writes:
>Well, that gives me your answer to my above question.
Susan, you took the words out of my mouth.
>So what about Celtic Jews?
>Susan
Celtic Jews, such as Scotch Jews, Irish Jews (the late President Herzog
of Israel), Welsh Jews (my late father and grandfather), are marvelous
persons, bar none.
My father was possibly the only Jew in the world who had an Xian
memorial service. His Xian friends put it on for him. It was something
to see. At his funeral we had a military rabbi. Dad was SUPPOSED to get
a seven-gun salute. They gave him a 21-gun salute, which is only for
the president of the US. The US Navy rabbi held me up.
G-d bless the US Navy.
Deborah
Vance McAlister
Douglas B. O'Morain <dou...@cisco.com> wrote in message
news:38C89CD8...@cisco.com...
> Vance McAlister wrote:
> >
> > I think the problem is that has very little liklihood of having any
> > historical validity yet is the subject of many books, theories, etc.
> > Any true historian has a very strong aversion to dissemination of
false
> > histories and the greater the dissemintation, the greater the
annoyance.
> > If people were not actually writing books about it and thus
convincing
> > unwitting readers, it would raise much less antagonism and disdain.
>
> I am perfectly happy to just go on my merry way, honest, but I'm still
waiting
> to see *any* evidence, pro or con, from folks who know what they're
> talking about. (A category into which I myself do not fall on this
> particular subject.) We've seen mention of one book in the "pro"
category,
> and no books in the "con" category.
If I was espousing the concept that the Aztecs were really aliens from
BetaZoid, and I went so far as to write a book about it, I would not
expect anyone to take the trouble to write a separate book, or even an
article, disputing the point. What I would expect is exactly what this
Israeli Celt theory receives: eye-rolling and knowing nods regarding my
stability. What we do have is a fairly clear history of the La Tene
culture and its development and dissemination through migration
thorughout Europe and even into Asia Minor. This is avialable in any
good encyclopaedia. This shows the migratory paths out of central
Europe to the both Spain and into the British Isles, and that Ireland
was settled by both Celt-Iberians from Spain and possibly some other
Celtic tribes from what is now England and Wales. In other words, we
have a body of knowledge about the Celtic tribes and their culture which
has been studied intensively for many decades and there has been no
credible historian who has made this connection between the Israelis and
a Celtic tribe.
We also had one person in this thread who was able to point out that the
languages are not similar enough to support any connection, based on his
knowledge of both languages. I would think it would be the burden of
the theory maker to convince us rather than have us debunk the theory.
I know I for one would not bother to spend the money for the book or the
time to read it, though, any more than I would bother with a book on the
pyramids being built by aliens.
Alexander Maclennan
> I've had enough of these fucking Jews thinking the world has to thank
> them for everything. The diaspora was a spit disolving in an ocean.
We have indeed a lot to be grateful to them for in the way of
scholarship, science and the arts. Quite a bit to regret too of
course. Their recent history in Germany probably explains their
behaviour in the Levant though of course does not entirely excuse it.
--
Alexander MacLennan sand...@sandymac.demon.co.uk
Elaine Bureau
rick <rsat...@iglou.com> wrote in message news:38C91B...@iglou.com...
Marcello Fabretti
many, I can't keep track!) then the Italians are the spawn of Japenese spice
traders who lost their way. I've had enough of these fucking Jews thinking
the world has to thank them for everything. The diaspora was a spit
common with Semite people is like saying shit smells like strawberries. Wake
up. Is it me or is everyone on this thread a head-case?
Marcello Fabretti
----------
In article <4v9y4.10590$84.11...@alfalfa.thegrid.net>, "Vance McAlister"
Doug Weller
> A lot of Celts are small and dark. My father's entire family never
> topped 5'8 (my father was 5'5"). All had black hair.
>
Hate to confuse matters, but surely you are talking about the Irish, not
the continental Celts?
Although the continental Celts (eg Gauls) obviously influenced the
inhabitants of Great Britain and Ireland, who ended up speaking their
languages, they didn't actually inhabit the British Isles (well, a few
did, obviously, but there was no mass migration).
Doug
--
Doug Weller member of moderation panel sci.archaeology.moderated
Submissions to: sci-archaeol...@medieval.org
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
Doug Weller
>
> The "Celts" are, and have always been a linguistic group, not a racial
> type hence they could be small and dark, tall and blonde, small and
> blonde, tall and dark, middle sized and green, tall OR small and orange
> etc etc etc This has been spelled out sooo many times on this NG that I
> am almost sick of seeing it.
>
Thank you.
Doug Weller
lu...@goaman.demon.co.uk says...
> In article <38C446...@virgin.net>, jim irvine
> <jim.i...@virgin.net> writes
> > [quoted text muted]
> >type hence they could be small and dark, tall and blonde, small and
> >blonde, tall and dark, middle sized and green, tall OR small and orange
> >etc etc etc This has been spelled out sooo many times on this NG that I
> >am almost sick of seeing it.
>
> nineties alternative one (made famous by Simon James) or the
> conventional one.
>
Made famous, but dating back earlier than Simon James. And becoming the
conventional one in Britain.
Doug Weller
> dltjxx wrote:
>
> >>James wrote:
[SNIP]> >
> >Ancient writers attest to the stature and fair coloring of the
> >Celts. The aboriginal inhabitants of the British Isles were
> >a small (possibly dark) people who arrived at the end of the last
> >ice age; it was this aboriginal people who constructed the famous
> >Stonehenge and Woodhenge, and seem to have had trade links with
> >Mycenae and Egypt. They were displaced and pushed into Scotland,
> >Wales and Cornwall over a period of several centuries by successive
> >waves of Celts from the Continent.
>
> I doubt they were displaced. Most of them were simply assimilated.
> The differences between Irish/Welsh English etc. are cultural.
>
The archaeological record certainly shows no displacement, not even
assimilation. Some influence by European Celts, yes. But also a
general continuity.
James
> I am perfectly happy to just go on my merry way, honest, but I'm still waiting
> to see *any* evidence, pro or con, from folks who know what they're
> talking about. (A category into which I myself do not fall on this
> particular subject.) We've seen mention of one book in the "pro" category,
> (and scorn), but no pointers to linguistic, anthropological, or historical
> sources that could actually give us an idea of how silly (or not)
> the theory is. No quotes from published articles, learned or otherwise.
> No references to "The works of Professor MacGoogly, the noted expert
> on Celtic anthropological linguistics." Heck, not even a "read the
> s.c.c. FAQ, ya dumb goons!"
Thank you that is what I am trying to say. If a case can be made that
Celtic is AS Semetic as it is IE then more studies should be done. An
author called Davey wrote a book on this matter didn't he?
James
> Celts do not look any more Jewish than other Indo-European groups, in
> fact I would go as far as to say they look less Jewish than say Slavs or
> big difference.
I think all groups look like other groups in one way or another some
how. I know theres a difference between IE language and Afro-asiatic
languages, but i have *heard of* evidence that Celtic was actually a bit
like an AA language, in terms of things like hard and soft verbs it is
identical to it. I am not a language expert which is why i came here and
asked about it. I am not trying to argue that Celts are Jewish stocked
but rather i havent seen people against this claim yet acknowledge that
the languages can be similar in parts or anything else, such as some
jews having red hair or the two groups looking facially similar IMO. If
someone who knew language structure well addressed the language point
but also pointed out why they aren't similar then i would be more
convinced.
I saw someone post in who knows Celtic and Hebrew saying they aren't
similar but isn't that like someone who knows both German and Russian
(both IE) thinking they must be from different universes?
James
> You are missing the point. There is no Celtic "bloodstock" for want of
> a better phrase. The Celtic La Tene culture dominated central Europe,
> but this included numerous peoples from various sources. It may have
> started with one particular people or tribe, but quickly extended over
> the continent. The breadth of this "realm" was great and many diverse
> tribes soon adopted the language and cultural aspects.
But how do we know this? People don't just adopt a language for fun,
they get conquered and have it forced upon them over a few generations
don't they?
I know that celt is a language but it's also roughly a group people. Jew
is a religion but when we say Jews, we also all know that a group of
people with similar blood lines exists too, and same with Germanic
langauged peoples.
What I am saying is that although Celtic IS a language, language and
genetic characteristics generally go damn well hand in hand, especially
back then.
James
> I doubt very much most were red-haired. Red hair is extremely
> uncommon, even among populations predisposed to it. Their most likely
> hair colours were generic blonde & light brown.
From all account most had red or at least fair blonde hair. Been to the
scottish highlands lately?
James
Marcello Fabretti
his dispatches in Greek because often it was easy for continental Celts
(Gauls) to comprehend. If you take a look at one of the online dictionaries
for Gaulish, you will notice many similarities between Latin and Gaulish.
Saying Gaulish and other Celtic Languages are related in some way to Semitic
languages seems to me to be a major stretch of the imagination.
Marcello Fabretti
----------
Marcello Fabretti
----------
In article <pMfy4.8125$L3.20...@news.magma.ca>, "Elaine Bureau"
Jonathan K.
>I was hoping we'd hear from an expert (or "an incredible
>simulation") on the subject. Thanks!
Well, let's just say someone conversant:) I'll tell you a bit more,
if you care to know: there is no comparison between Gaelic and Hebrew
in difficulty, either, Gaelic being vastly more difficult. As you may
know, Hebrew is actually structured in such a way that it helps you to
learn it. Gaelic, by contrast, almost seems designed to drive one to
drink (I can say it, I'm of Irish heritage). Not sure if Arabic is
harder than Gaelic but it's no easier.
About the only thing they have in common is their loveliness. When I
hear Hebrew music I hear the joys and sorrows of millennia, heavy on
the sorrows. When I hear music in Irish Gaelic I hear, somewhere in
the distance, the stirrings of the Fianna. Each eloquently expresses
part of the essential character of the culture that blessed us with
it.
--
Jonathan K.
Besq
Solitaire,I second your lines, if only you went further back than the Vikings...... There are many Scandinavian groups mentioned long before them... Inger ESolitaire <tig...@fix.net> skrev i diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:38C35E6D...@fix.net...I have heard a lot of British-Israelism theories, and some of them are believeable. It goes something like this: Around 730BC the northern Kingdom of Israel was defeated by the Assyrians and chased/taken out of their country to nw Iraq to Halah, Habor, the River of Gozan and the cities of the Medes. They were called Sacae. A bit later the rest of the northern kingdom was also defeated and sent to an area somewhat to the east of the first and were known as the Gimri, their king at the time was Omri so Gimri may be some fom of that. Eventually they ran into each other, fought and joined up and began to wander, first going north thru' the Caucasus. In the steppes they wandered as far as India and China and were known as Scythians. Time passed and around 100AD/BC they were more or less concentrated around the northern Black Sea and the Crimea (Gimri, Cimmerians).In the 19th century, some graves were found in the Crimea and the inscription on one of them read:Hello everyoneThat's an interesting statement... I had not heard of any such claims, but it would definitely be interesting to read of such.
I have seen a few things written saying that Celts were once thought to
be from Israel originally, and not indo-european. I want to know is
there any evidence for this?? I know that celtic language is sometimes
said to be more in the semitic/arab branch than the euro branch....I don't think modern scientists and anthropologists think too much of this yet... it is possible that some have or are investigating the possibility, but I haven't seen any speculations published as of yet.
Anything else? What do modern scientists and anthropologists think the
chances of this are, or don't they rate it much at all? it is a very
interesting question I find. (I also find it strange that people with
such fair skin and red hair would have come from in the middle east, but
this could have changed a little after they left the area, if they did).
As for the red hair, I believe that much of that is attributed to the influx of Scandanavian blood into Celtic tribal societies in the British Isles through the Vikings, etc. But the other genetic attributes make it a tenuous connection at best.
"I, Jehuda ben Mose ha-Nagolon of the East country, ben Jehuda ha-Gibbor of the tribe of Naphtali, of the generation Schillem, who went into exile with the exiles, who were driven away with Hosea, the king of Israel, together with the tribes of Simeon and Dan and some of the generations of the other tribes of Israel, which (all) were led into exile by the enemy Shalmanesser from Schomron (Samaria) and their cities to Chalach (Halah), that is, Backack and to Chabar (Habor), that is, Chabul and to Hara, that is, Herat, and to Gosan (Gozan), the cities of the exiled tribes of Reuben, Gad, and the half of Manasseh, which Pilneser (Tiglath-Oukeser) drove into exile and settled there (and from there they scattered themselves over the whole land of the East as far as Sinim) -when I returned from wandering in the land of their exile and from journeying in the dwelling places of the descendants of their generations in their resting places of the land of Krim (the Crimea)." This report was published in Adacemia Scientiarum Imperialis Memoires, St. Petersburg, vol. 24, no. 1, 1864, p. 9. Other associated graves had inscriptions similar but said "died in the 726th year of our exile, 785th year of our exile, 702nd year of our exile." History assumes when they made their way into Europe they came to be known as the Celts, Keltoi. Their art seems to tie the Scythians and Celts together as it is almost identical in style and subject. From there they scattered in all directions and some believe they can be identified today by the promises given the individual tribes by their father Jacob/Israel in Gen. 48 and 49. Part of Dan left earlier when he "leapt from Bashan" and "went down to the sea in ships" probably with the Phoenicians who were in Tyre and Sidon then. Can't keep the boys on the farm when adventure can be had. Many believe Dan had settlements in Ireland, Norway, Iceland, all the Scandinavian countries. They also explored rivers leading clear into Russia (russ=red). This is just a bare sketch of a 65 page booklet about these people about whom so little is known but it is plausible, to me anyway. I think its fascinating. This booklet is published by a religious organization, I don't belong, and is free on request. It goes into much more detail and has color photos of archaeological interest and only 2-3 pages of religious doctrine. This group has a reputation of honesty and would not publish anything unless they were certain of their research and sources. Its pretty convincing.
Of Saxons, some languages dropped vowels or didn't use them and somehow Isaac's Sons became Saxons.
to e-mail remove *ns*
Leis gach beannachd,Thank you! Please reply if you can add anything at all for me because i
know not much about it.James
Solitaire--
Gur math thèid leibh
Saor Alba
Besq
James wrote:
>Hello everyone
>I have seen a few things written saying that Celts were once thought to
>be from Israel originally, and not indo-european. I want to know is
>there any evidence for this??
As a pseudo-fantasist, I can suggest you call this religious organization and request the free 65 page booklet, "America and Britain in Prophecy". It tells the whole theory and has maps, color photos of archaeological sites and objects, Celtic goldwork, sculpture, including the black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, now in the British Museum. There are only 2 -3 pages of actual religious writing by the church that publishes it. The toll free phone number is 1 800 959 1641. They do not follow up and there is no obligation on your part.Only among British Israelite fantasists.
--
Gearóid Mac Cuinneagáin
abardubh at enteract dot com
Tá m'aerbhád lán d'eascanna
Besq
> James wrote:
>
> > (I also find it strange that people with
> > such fair skin and red hair would have come from in the middle east, but
> > this could have changed a little after they left the area, if they did).
>
> Not that I believe any of this, but I have to say that the original
> Celts were small & dark - it's only after the injection of the
> Viking peoples that they get tall & fair.
>
> Sudan
If we go by the Bible, Noah's sons were Ham, father of the black races,
Japheth, father of the orientals, and Shem, father of the white races. In
white races, there is a wide variety of coloring, redheads, brunettes with
blue eyes, darker smaller like the Jews, etc. I imagine in their later
wanderings in Europe, they did intermarry and absorbed even more "color".
Sudan??? My ring finger jumps too.
Doug Weller
> Vance McAlister wrote:
> > You are missing the point. There is no Celtic "bloodstock" for want of
> > a better phrase. The Celtic La Tene culture dominated central Europe,
> > but this included numerous peoples from various sources. It may have
> > started with one particular people or tribe, but quickly extended over
> > the continent. The breadth of this "realm" was great and many diverse
> > tribes soon adopted the language and cultural aspects.
>
> But how do we know this? People don't just adopt a language for fun,
> they get conquered and have it forced upon them over a few generations
> don't they?
>
style, etc, or inclusion of Celtic styles but with a local twist that
indicates that it was locals who were adapting some Celtic stylistic
influences.
Doug Weller
a*x*har...@clara.co.uk says...
>
> Is it not the case that both Celts and Jews start(ed) their day in the
> evening?
>
> Is it not the case that Jews can trace their religious beliefs back to
> ancient Sumer - and has there not been a case made for Sumer being the
> root of Celtic (and many other) religious beliefs?
>
> Did some Irish Chieftain, on being introduced to Christianity not say
> "But this is not new - we have known this for a thousand years" and
> did not one of the Celtic (Welsh IIRC) Saints not say "Christianity is
> what the Druids taught"?
>
> And if you say Druid and Rabbi together many times fast don't they
> just start to sound like one and the same?
>
> I don't really know the answers to any of the above. I don't even know
> if they are relevant. What I do know is that cultures, philosophies,
> beliefs do not develop in isolation and if there is a relationship
> between the Celts and Jews it is likely to be a philosophical link.
Did you make up the questions then? Most of the answers so far as I
know, if not all, are No.
> FWIW I suggest that when the land of milk and honey (Sumer) turned to
> desert - the people who headed due West became Jews;
No, the people who lived in Canaan (Canaanites) became the Jews. Sumer
didn't turn to desert either. It prospered.
Robert J. Kolker
Elaine Bureau wrote:
> There were no Israelis on earth before 1948!
Thank you! I was going to make this complaint but you beat
me to it. The modern nation state of Israel was proclaimed
in 1948, and styled in its proclaiming charter as Midinat
Yisroel (Nation of Isreal). The ancient peoples of the bible
are referred to as b'nai yisroel, the children of descendants
of Israel which was the name bestowed upon Jacob after
wrestling G-D or an Angel of G-D to a draw. Israel literally
means wrestler with G-D or contender of G-D. And that
is how Jacob's descendants through his twelve son's are
called.
It is highly unlikely that the Kelts are of the same kin as Jacob's
descendants. Wrong part of the world. The Earth was populated
with many nations distinct from Jacob and his descendants. The
Kelts are among those.
Bob Kolker
Robert J. Kolker
James wrote:
>
> I know that celt is a language but it's also roughly a group people. Jew
> is a religion but when we say Jews, we also all know that a group of
> people with similar blood lines exists too, and same with Germanic
> langauged peoples.
I am sure the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia might have a thing or two
to say about that. The Falashas are as dark as the Ace of Spades
and the Ashkenizi of Europe are not. What blood stock?
Bob Kolker
Reuven Singer
Marcello Fabretti <fabre...@one.net.au> wrote in message
news:38c9...@pink.one.net.au...
> A pitty that had to change.
>
> ----------
> In article <pMfy4.8125$L3.20...@news.magma.ca>, "Elaine Bureau"
> <sp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > There were no Israelis on earth before 1948!
> >
> >
dltjxx
>>>So what about Celtic Jews?
>> Áigh, bheith! :)
>Top o' the Shabbos to ye.
>Susan
Susan, you took the words out of my mouth!
Shabbat shalom,
Deborah
dltjxx
>> >And just how do Jews look?
>> Kinda like Jews....
>Which means what?
My thought about "how Jews look" is that Jews look Italian, except for
my friends when I was growing up. They were blonde-haired, blue-eyed
Jews.
>>>So what about Celtic Jews?
>> You mean half Celts/half Jews
>There's no such thing, thanks.
Half Celts/half Jews??? The late President of Israel, Chaim Herzog, son
of the Cheif Rabbi of Ireland, was called by Senator Moynihan "one of
the great Irishmen of this century".
Deborah
Doug Weller
> > I doubt very much most were red-haired. Red hair is extremely
> > uncommon, even among populations predisposed to it. Their most likely
> > hair colours were generic blonde & light brown.
>
> From all account most had red or at least fair blonde hair. Been to the
> scottish highlands lately?
>
other parts of Britain, but maybe...
Doug Weller
> is a religion but when we say Jews, we also all know that a group of
> people with similar blood lines exists too, and same with Germanic
> langauged peoples.
>
> genetic characteristics generally go damn well hand in hand, especially
> back then.
>
Doug
Besq
> Besq <Besq*ns*@uswest.net> took time out from reloading to say...
>
> >If we go by the Bible, Noah's sons were Ham, father of the black races,
> >Japheth, father of the orientals, and Shem, father of the white races.
>
> Where exactly in the Bible did you find that?
Genesis 10, 11, -
>
>
> To reply by email, remove the XYZ.
>
> Lumber Cartel (tinlc) #2063. Spam this account at your own risk.
Kim Bebbington
<dou...@cisco.com> wrote:
>Susan Cohen wrote:
>>
>> James wrote:
>>
>> > (I also find it strange that people with
>> > such fair skin and red hair would have come from in the middle east, but
>> > this could have changed a little after they left the area, if they did).
>>
>> Not that I believe any of this, but I have to say that the original
>> Celts were small & dark - it's only after the injection of the
>> Viking peoples that they get tall & fair.
>
>A lot of Celts are small and dark. My father's entire family never
>topped 5'8 (my father was 5'5"). All had black hair. Some had
>blue eyes, some brown, and some green. Personally, my skin is
>actually very sallow, and I rarely burn. When I am completely
>pale (i.e., like now, in the middle of winter), I am actually
>several shades darker than the palest my Assyrian (100%--born
>in Bagdad) sister-in-law gets.
>
>But here's something that our esteemed Mr. Mac Cuinneag?in may
>even find interesting: the family last name is "Moran," which
>is also a word in Hebrew that is used for the evergreen plant
>viburnum that grows in thickets. Apparently there is even a
>Moran community settlement in the Galilee.
>
>But it gets better. Not too long ago, I was sent a number of
>postcards from an aquainence in Ireland which had the Moran
>family crest on it. The crest is made up of three stars...
>six pointed stars. (In yellow on a field of blue, if you're
>interested.)
>
>It has often caused me to wonder. One of the other lost tribes?
>Who can say?
>
>Doug
Why stop there?
What about the name Hara, which, in Hebrew, means "shit"? Which leads
me to conclude that your theory is a load O'Hara! :-)
Susan Cohen
Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> Do a search for "British Israelites". If the bits about Egyptian
> Princesses building the Hill of Tara don't set off alarm bells, then
> go read the sci.lang FAQ [http://www.zompist.com/langfaq.html].
> Celtic languages are not related to Hebrew, the former are I-E, the
> latter is Semitic. You won't find a lot of 'books in the "con"
> category' for the same reason that evolutionary anthropologists don't
> write books debunking Mormon theories about how Indians arrived in
> America. They have better things to do with their time.
You articulated this far better than I could/would have.
Thanks.
Susan
Susan Cohen
"Jonathan K." wrote:
> Susan Cohen <fla...@his.com> wrote:
>
> >I was hoping we'd hear from an expert (or "an incredible
> >simulation") on the subject. Thanks!
>
> Well, let's just say someone conversant:) I'll tell you a bit more,
> if you care to know: there is no comparison between Gaelic and Hebrew
> in difficulty, either, Gaelic being vastly more difficult. As you may
> know, Hebrew is actually structured in such a way that it helps you to
> learn it. Gaelic, by contrast, almost seems designed to drive one to
> drink (I can say it, I'm of Irish heritage).
Mom & I must be the only Irish people I know
who *don't* drink.
> Not sure if Arabic is
> harder than Gaelic but it's no easier.
>
> About the only thing they have in common is their loveliness. When I
> hear Hebrew music I hear the joys and sorrows of millennia, heavy on
> the sorrows. When I hear music in Irish Gaelic I hear, somewhere in
> the distance, the stirrings of the Fianna.
Odd, but I hear a great amount of pathos in Irish music,
and a good deal of "joy in persevering" in Jewish music.
Then again, it's the pipes that really get to me.
Susan
INGER E. JOHANSSON
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:38C9BC...@nospam.com...
> Vance McAlister wrote:
> > You are missing the point. There is no Celtic "bloodstock" for want of
> > a better phrase. The Celtic La Tene culture dominated central Europe,
> > but this included numerous peoples from various sources. It may have
> > started with one particular people or tribe, but quickly extended over
> > the continent. The breadth of this "realm" was great and many diverse
> > tribes soon adopted the language and cultural aspects.
>
> But how do we know this? People don't just adopt a language for fun,
> they get conquered and have it forced upon them over a few generations
> don't they?
>
> is a religion but when we say Jews, we also all know that a group of
> people with similar blood lines exists too, and same with Germanic
> langauged peoples.
>
> What I am saying is that although Celtic IS a language, language and
> genetic characteristics generally go damn well hand in hand, especially
> back then.
I second your opinion except for the fact that the Celts also can be shown
to have been divided in two seperate groups if you look at clay-products in
La Téne II. If you start to look at Europe as a whole continent than you for
example will find that Scandinavia(and Sweden as a special case when it
comes to this matter) is divided as are most of Europe in a Western and an
Eastern group. A close contact between Scandinavia and the areas east of
Odra can be proved when we are discussing the to have a corresponding
alikeness in regards not only in pottery found but in female-pins, necklaces
and belt-details as well.
If we for example look at the Jasdorf Culture there were four distinct
groups:
1) The Lower Elbe group
2) the Coastal Group between Warnow and Odra
3) the Lake District between Plann Sea, Kummerower Sea, Tollen See and
Berling
4) The Havel-Middle Elbe Group between Spree's and Havel's watersystems and
the north of Saxony.
If you look at the groups as a whole there are no resemblance what so ever
between the Celts living in these parts and the Israeli people. In the
phases most discussed the "Jastorf Culture occupies a considerable territory
of Central Europe. In many areas, mainly in the periphery, the culture
received or was influenced by foreign cultures which resulted in quite
considerable differences within the Jastorf Culture. The deviations are
especially evident between the core area at the lower Elbe and the southern
periphery"...
."The beginning of the Jastorf culture in Western Pomerania dates back to
HAD/D2. It is connected with the influence from the Lake District Group of
the Mecklenburg hinterlands, and initially it is limited to the left bank of
the lower Odra(Wawelnica, Woj. Szczecin). In the Early Pre-Roman Iron Age
the Jastorf Culture expands it-s territory eastwards to the Rega and Parseta
rivers and southwards towards Notec, although the settlement hardly
transgressed the Myslibork lake district. From this time onwards the Odra
Estuary Group is closely related to the Coastal Group".
Ref. Wolagriewic Ryszard, The Pre Roman Iron Age in Pomerania; in
Chronological Problems of the Pre-Roman Iron Age in Northern Europe, ed
Martens, Arkćologiske skrifter 7, symposium at the Inst. Of Prehistoric and
Classic Archaeology University of Copenhagen, December 8th 1992, ed. 1997;
page 11.
If you like to go further you can separate the Celtic groups and other in
re. of their grave-customs. Non of which are alike the Jewish traditions!.
Have a nice day.
Inger E
Kim Bebbington
>dltjxx wrote:
>
>>My father was possibly the only Jew in the world who had an Xian
>>memorial service.
>
>Christians worldwide hold a memorial service for a dead jew every
>Sunday :)
Touche!
Susan Cohen
Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
>
> >"Jonathan K." wrote:
>
> >> Gaelic, by contrast, almost seems designed to drive one to
> >> drink (I can say it, I'm of Irish heritage).
> >
> >Mom & I must be the only Irish people I know
> >who *don't* drink.
>
> Then you should get out more. Ireland has one of the highest teetotal
> rates (if not the highest) in Europe.
Hey - you pay my airfare, & I'm there!!!
Susan
dltjxx
>Mom & I must be the only Irish people I know
>who *don't* drink.
You too, Susan?
We have a joke in our family about my mother.
She has a drink like four times a year. The
joke is that when she drinks, she's an alcoholic.
When she drinks, its always a whiskey sour.
>Odd, but I hear a great amount of pathos in Irish music,
>and a good deal of "joy in persevering" in Jewish music.
>Then again, it's the pipes that really get to me.
>Susan
Its the pipes that get to me, too. When I hear them,
I bawl. Same as with the Jordanian pipers. I can't
help the tears. I love them.
Deborah
Susan Cohen
Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >Gerard Cunningham wrote:
> >> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >> >"Jonathan K." wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Gaelic, by contrast, almost seems designed to drive one to
> >> >> drink (I can say it, I'm of Irish heritage).
> >> >
> >> >Mom & I must be the only Irish people I know
> >> >who *don't* drink.
> >>
> >> Then you should get out more. Ireland has one of the highest teetotal
> >> rates (if not the highest) in Europe.
> >
> >Hey - you pay my airfare, & I'm there!!!
>
> Ah, so you use the word "Irish" in the leftpondian sense which means
> "American"...
Or, rather, Americans of Irish descent.
Then again, listening to Irishmen from ireland
(when i get the chance) gives me the idea
that alcoholism is a specific problem for them.
You're the only one who's been really positive on
this issue that I've heard. It's good news, at any rate!!
Susan
Robert J. Kolker
Kim Bebbington wrote:
>
> Why stop there?
> What about the name Hara, which, in Hebrew, means "shit"? Which leads
> me to conclude that your theory is a load O'Hara! :-)
Now now! O'Hara has and aych sound and khara (hebrew shit) has
the fricative kh and in lokh loman. The hebrew letter is khet, not hay.
Bob Kolker
janowl
rates (if not the highest) in Europe.<<<<<<<
Can you give a source for this statement?
Friends,
Jan Steck in Vina, CA
Suze Hammond
Well, if you really care, arrange for some genetic testing.
It has recently been proven all the Jewish Cohen tribal offshoots are
related, over vast areas and generations.
A lost tribe of Africans who've thought of themselves as Jews for
centuries, even though they've forgotten most of the details of the
religion, have recently been validated as Jewish descendents by
genetic testing.
If the Celts and Jews are related, it ought to be provable.
Suze
Allan-John Marsh
> That is very interesting thank you. But did Celts migrate FROM eastern
> europe or TO eastern europe? Remember IE peoples all came from eastern
> europe, I think. But generally speaking celts do look more Jewish than
> other IE people facially. Any blood tests ever been done betwen the two
> groups?
Jews are a people who identify as such. How can a cultural distinction
in wider modern nations of peoples equate to a 'people' or race that can
be genetically tested?
Allan-John Marsh
> But how do we know this? People don't just adopt a language for fun,
> they get conquered and have it forced upon them over a few generations
> don't they?
>
> I know that celt is a language but it's also roughly a group people. Jew
> is a religion but when we say Jews, we also all know that a group of
> people with similar blood lines exists too, and same with Germanic
> langauged peoples.
That's a very poor argument I'm afraid. To speak a Celtic language you
could claim to be Celtic, but speaking a Germanic language, English, and
living in Ireland NOT speaking Gaelic, would you not be a Celt or not be
Germanic? There is a language family known as Celtic languages, not a
race of people.
> What I am saying is that although Celtic IS a language, language and
> genetic characteristics generally go damn well hand in hand, especially
> back then.
Although before the Romans invaded Britain, Brythonic could have been a
pure Celtic form of Gaelic, I doubt it. The Celtic languages are linked
by their structure and rules, as are other language groups. Culturally,
in the modern age that holds little meaning, but in the past, 'cultures'
were very distinct. A group of marauding Gaels attacking from the north
isn't going to make one bit of difference to Brythons as opposed to
Angles from the east - tribes are tribes. Nobody was around to say
"wait on, they speak a language linked to ours through its grammer
structure and so forth" to keep the peace. There is no Celtic people.
Allan-John Marsh
> I was referring to the group of people who originally spoke a Celtic
> language, while it is technically possible (and politically correct to
> say) some were black haired and very tanned skin it must have been
> *extremely* rare as most were red haired by all accounts and proud of
> it. I am mostly celtic and i have red hair.
By all accounts crap. Early accounts give us details of the tribes of
Britain with their bleached blonde/white hair. Who knows how red hair
got in the gene pool - Vikings, Normans, migrants, merchants.
It would be interesting to see how a person can claim to be mostly
Celtic. Do you mean mostly Irish? In that case you should use
'Irish'. Do you mean Scottish? You've got even less of a case than if
you use Irish, or English.