Movies that are history acurate about the ancient times
razvan_...@hotmail.com
times wich are as acurate history wise as posibile:
My list so far
Attila - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attila_(TV_miniseries)
Caesar - http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2743311616/tt0284741
Spartacus - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus_(2004_film)
Please post any good movies you know :)
SolomonW
wrote:
You may want to checkout the directors comments on the film Gladiator. They
were not that concerned about making a historic accurate film. But they did
hired a few historians. A problem was that so much was not known that the
story writers often had to guess.
imipak
> So I am working on getting a list togheter of a good movies of ancient
> times wich are as acurate history wise as posibile:
>
> My list so far
>
> Attila -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attila_(TV_miniseries)
> Caesar -http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2743311616/tt0284741
>
> Please post any good movies you know :)
I can't judge the accuracy of it, as it hasn't been released yet, but
there is said to be a historically accurate movie based on Boudecca in
the works. Part of the problem with historical movies is what we
define by accuracy. Often, some elements are amazingly accurate whilst
other elements are sacrificed on the altar of mass appeal. Thus,
Jaguar got many details right about ancient South American
civilizations but added far more gore and savagery than history can
justify in order to get bums on seats - the only thing that really
matters to the movie industry. Likewise, Passion put enormous effort
into getting the Aramaic right and much of the backdrop right, but
completely discarded any reality to do with culture as blatant
prejudice tends to sell rather better than honesty. Zulu accurately
depicted much of the fighting and many of the battles, as those scenes
tend to sell well anyway, but discarded all of the historical details
that would upset a British audience (such as the massacre by the
British of all the Zulus who were wounded or captured) which might
have impacted the money made.
Independent movies, which are made more for the art than for mass
appeal, are the only ones that could potentially be accurate on all
points. However, independents are typically low-budget (and can't
therefore afford historically accurate props OR the historians and
archaeologists needed as advisers) and art-for-arts-sake often
sacrifices honesty for other reasons, such as the desire to convey a
message by the artist. Nonetheless, I'd start looking there rather
than at the big productions.
razvan_...@hotmail.com
Of the movies that I linked I think Attila and Caesar do contain some
history facts but are not realy that acurate however the Spartacus
would be very damned acurate
Matt Giwer
> My list so far
There is no such thing as an accurate hollywood production. There is no such
thing as accurate about times that long ago.
The idea of William Wallace or Spartacus thinking about Freedom! is absurd.
Think Conan the Barbarian answering the question, what is good. That is the
way they openly thought and spoke back then. With Christianity that is not
what they speak but still what they do. And if you want to get to Attila
Conan's answers come from Attila.
Without tracking down which Caesar movie from your link to only posters I
will predict it does not present it clearly as a private enterprise of the
Julii. My best guess is you mean this one.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0284741/ The one summary tells me next to nothing
by which to judge it.
Essentially it is impossible for any popular work to represent anything in
history even 200 years ago much less 2000.
This is not intended to be my usual nit pick. Simply we do not understand the
times of Julius Caesar. We may know a lot about the times but we do not
understand them. We do not understand what gets Romans excited today. The idea
of private armies which would commit the city and empire is like Nancy Pelosi
raising a private army to invade Iran and the US suffering the consequences of
losing. Please tell me how can understand this. And in fact it is more like
more of the Rockefellers doing it. And given Bill Gates father is/was a
billionaire it is more like Bill Gates raising an army.
Please tell me how how any movie can represent real history that long ago.
--
For years Israel has been the only country demanding war against Iran.
If there is a war against Iran, Israel will deny it ever called for war.
Anyone who says Israel demanded the war will become an antisemite.
I know because that is what happened after the Iraq war.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4115
http://www.haaretz.com What is Israel really like? http://www.jpost.com a7
Fri Mar 13 04:22:48 EDT 2009
rick++
In the the original languages too.
imipak
> razvan_moroi...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > So I am working on getting a list togheter of a good movies of ancient
> > times wich are as acurate history wise as posibile:
> > My list so far
> > Caesar -http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2743311616/tt0284741
> > Please post any good movies you know :)
>
> There is no such thing as an accurate hollywood production. There is no such
> thing as accurate about times that long ago.
>
> The idea of William Wallace or Spartacus thinking about Freedom! is absurd.
> Think Conan the Barbarian answering the question, what is good. That is the
> way they openly thought and spoke back then. With Christianity that is not
> what they speak but still what they do. And if you want to get to Attila
> Conan's answers come from Attila.
>
> Without tracking down which Caesar movie from your link to only posters I
> will predict it does not present it clearly as a private enterprise of the
> by which to judge it.
>
> Essentially it is impossible for any popular work to represent anything in
> history even 200 years ago much less 2000.
>
> This is not intended to be my usual nit pick. Simply we do not understand the
> times of Julius Caesar. We may know a lot about the times but we do not
> understand them. We do not understand what gets Romans excited today. The idea
> of private armies which would commit the city and empire is like Nancy Pelosi
> raising a private army to invade Iran and the US suffering the consequences of
> losing. Please tell me how can understand this. And in fact it is more like
> more of the Rockefellers doing it. And given Bill Gates father is/was a
> billionaire it is more like Bill Gates raising an army.
>
> Please tell me how how any movie can represent real history that long ago.
>
> --
> For years Israel has been the only country demanding war against Iran.
> If there is a war against Iran, Israel will deny it ever called for war.
> Anyone who says Israel demanded the war will become an antisemite.
> I know because that is what happened after the Iraq war.
> -- The Iron Webmaster, 4115
> http://www.haaretz.comWhat is Israel really like?http://www.jpost.coma7
> Fri Mar 13 04:22:48 EDT 2009
Here, I would distinguish between rigid accuracy (which, as you
correctly say, is impossible as we do not understand them and frankly
know very little about them) and authentic, where authentic can be
loosely defined as any scenario that does not contradict any known
information but which may or may not have actually happened.
The re-creation of the Iron Age farm in Wales is a good example. The
buildings are 100% correct - to within the limits of our knowledge.
Anything that was not recorded and did not survive for archaeological
inspection is outside our knowledge and may lead someone to construct
a building that is very different. Thus, the re-creation is authentic
(there is no existant source - archaeological or textual - which
conflicts with the design, size, purpose, etc) but the accuracy is
much less well determined (as we cannot know how much we don't know,
and therefore cannot know how much this unknown alters things).
Another example would be the vertical weighted loom, popular with the
Norse. Living History groups have combined knowledge from such looms
in use today in extremely remote regions of eastern Europe that were
occupied by the Norse with knowledge from what was written and what
has been archaeologically recovered. They have been able to then use
these reconstructed looms to produce designs impossible on modern
looms but which compare well with the precious little fragments of
textiles that archaeology has recovered. Thus, they fit all known data
(and are authentic) for inputs (materials used), design, and outputs
(materials produced). But they are not, and never can be, proven to be
100% the same as what the Norse actually used, as no completely intact
fully-strung loom has ever been recovered. Even then, you can't be
sure if that was the general design or a one-off special.
And these are your more basic, solid things. When it comes to the not-
so-solid, we have much less data. We know the Romans played 24-a-side
soccer, but we don't know what rules (if any) they had. As early forms
of English soccer involved both kicking and carrying the ball (this
probably split at some point into what is now Football and Rugby, but
not at the school in Rugby), the Roman game (minimally recorded)
probably had similar rules, but we can't be sure as they're not
recorded.
We know the Roman historians gave elaborate, long-winded speeches to
the enemies of the Romans, but that's because Roman Senators spoke
that way and therefore that is how Roman art conveyed the feeling of
authority when describing cultures they didn't understand. No Roman
was ever in ear-shot of these supposed speeches, with the exception of
the Welsh prince who gave a speech to the Senate in Rome, so we know
those speeches are all bogus and intended for effect, not accuracy.
We have a map of the mediterranean and the Roman roads built along it,
but with minimal or no information on what settlements were where.
Some of these roads are known from archaeology, others have long-since
vanished - either into the sea, into rivers, or under modern
construction work. Its accuracy is therefore indeterminable. It is
also unclear what, if any, purpose this map served, as this wasn't
territory anyone really needed to defend from attack (too far inside
the Empire) and serious efforts at logistics and multiple supply line
co-ordination - whilst very important on the frontier - was simply not
useful enough to warrant extensive surveys and elaborate mapping.
Nonetheless, the map exists and is a fascinating piece of history. But
if we can't guess at any logical purpose in having it, we can't guess
at what areas of life such knowledge was deemed useful. In other
words, our knowledge of their psychology simply isn't up to answering
that.
Aside from the"Five Good Emperors" (who had relatively few people
murdered and ordered relatively few massacres of innocents for
political gain), the Roman Emperors were bloodthirsty brutes and often
quite psychotic. Theories involving lead poisoning or inbreeding have
largely been debunked as a primary cause, although they might have
contributed. This suggests it has less to do with mundane causes and
much more to do with the stresses of life in Roman times, of which we
know nothing beyond the recommendation by Julius Caesar that such
stresses be buried with bread and circuses.
Matt Giwer
I find reconstructing hardware although often questionable but when it can
recreate a product to be a reasonable confirmation of getting it right. If
only there were "products" for confirmation of most of their machines.
> And these are your more basic, solid things. When it comes to the not-
> so-solid, we have much less data. We know the Romans played 24-a-side
> soccer, but we don't know what rules (if any) they had. As early forms
> of English soccer involved both kicking and carrying the ball (this
> probably split at some point into what is now Football and Rugby, but
> not at the school in Rugby), the Roman game (minimally recorded)
> probably had similar rules, but we can't be sure as they're not
> recorded.
Unlike modern Rugby players I doubt the Romans ate their dead. However I did
read they did eat the genitalia of the senior male after his death.
That said, a movie shot of the common penis-shaped wind chimes would give an
entirely different perspective on any movie about Rome.
> We know the Roman historians gave elaborate, long-winded speeches to
> the enemies of the Romans, but that's because Roman Senators spoke
> that way and therefore that is how Roman art conveyed the feeling of
> authority when describing cultures they didn't understand. No Roman
> was ever in ear-shot of these supposed speeches, with the exception of
> the Welsh prince who gave a speech to the Senate in Rome, so we know
> those speeches are all bogus and intended for effect, not accuracy.
Maybe. There are a huge number of long-winded speeches in the congressional
record whose public recitation was a few opening paragraphs and a motion to
include the entire speech into the record. How would a Welsh prince know if it
was delivered or not after getting a written copy?
> We have a map of the mediterranean and the Roman roads built along it,
> but with minimal or no information on what settlements were where.
> Some of these roads are known from archaeology, others have long-since
> vanished - either into the sea, into rivers, or under modern
> construction work. Its accuracy is therefore indeterminable. It is
> also unclear what, if any, purpose this map served, as this wasn't
> territory anyone really needed to defend from attack (too far inside
> the Empire) and serious efforts at logistics and multiple supply line
> co-ordination - whilst very important on the frontier - was simply not
> useful enough to warrant extensive surveys and elaborate mapping.
> Nonetheless, the map exists and is a fascinating piece of history. But
> if we can't guess at any logical purpose in having it, we can't guess
> at what areas of life such knowledge was deemed useful. In other
> words, our knowledge of their psychology simply isn't up to answering
> that.
Many years ago I took drove from DC to an address in Dunedin, Florida not
only without a map but without even consulting one knowing in the back of my
head that there had always been enough signs on other trips to get where I was
going. It worked. I really did not need a map. But there are maps of all
kinds. In Roman days all they had to do was pick a road in the right direction
and ask people they met along the way in lieu of signs and get much more
detailed information. Yet they made maps too.
A while back read a cartographer commenting on his craft. It viewed it as
containing the greatest amount of information possible onto a single map.
Perhaps the roads were just a perfunctory part of the information being
conveyed and not the purpose of the map.
But until we find some Roman cartographer discussing his craft we can only
guess.
> Aside from the"Five Good Emperors" (who had relatively few people
> murdered and ordered relatively few massacres of innocents for
> political gain), the Roman Emperors were bloodthirsty brutes and often
> quite psychotic. Theories involving lead poisoning or inbreeding have
> largely been debunked as a primary cause, although they might have
> contributed. This suggests it has less to do with mundane causes and
> much more to do with the stresses of life in Roman times, of which we
> know nothing beyond the recommendation by Julius Caesar that such
> stresses be buried with bread and circuses.
To me it reads simply they had no interest in being good Christian Americans.
They were clans with clan feuds probably going back to before Rome was
founded. Sure they killed their wives. Their wives were from other clans
seeking to take over via marriage. It was not that the wife's son was all that
much but rather that he could be the rallying point for the wife's clan. It
was the same down through almost the last century of European kings yet that
aspect is rarely even mentioned in historical dramas.
Rather we get the romantic notion of healing feuds via marriage. The issue
was only the heir apparent's support of his father's or his mother's clan. In
clan feuds children are always targets if important enough.
--
Palestinians are the classic underdogs. The world says they are the
weaker party to the conflict. The Jews say they are dogs.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4112
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/ a8
Sat Mar 14 03:48:31 EDT 2009