Delphi and the Pythoness
Ned Latham
about the Pythoness? Or know of any sources/resources that can throw
some light on the matter?
I'd like to know, if possible, how the Pythoness was chosen, whether
the choice was limited to any particular family or group of families,
how she was reared and trained, what language she used, and how the
priest of Apollo translated her utterances.
Any help with this will be much appreciated.
Ned Latham
Weland
Not much is known. The bare outlines are that she was past child-bearing
age, thought not to be of an elite family, and was among the women of
Delphi and not from other city-states. What training or education etc.
so far as I know is not known. Not sure what you mean by
language...likely a mixture of Greek and gibberish "interpreted" by the
priests with the oracle then written and passed on to the suppliant.
Check out Classical Athens and the Delphic oracle: divination and democracy
By Hugh Bowden
and
Portrait of a priestess: women and ritual in ancient Greece
By Joan Breton Connelly
More generally Walter Burkert's classic Greek Religion
An oldie, but still some good info in it: Herbert Parke, The Delphic Oracle
Also more generally
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
news:slrnhigm0b...@woden.valhalla.oz...
> This is an enquiry about the Delphic oracle. Does anyone know anything
> about the Pythoness? Or know of any sources/resources that can throw
> some light on the matter?
>
> I'd like to know, if possible, how the Pythoness was chosen, whether
There were three of them, an old one, a middle aged one and a young one and
they took it in turns.
> the choice was limited to any particular family or group of families,
No. I don't think they were allowed to marry.
> how she was reared and trained, what language she used, and how the
Greek hexameter.
> priest of Apollo translated her utterances.
They sent carrier pigeons to carry messages back and forth and the
utterances were devised by the priests (who could also be bribed to say
wherever you wanted as they were by Athens) based on what was in the
intelligence brought to the temple.
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> >
> > This is an enquiry about the Delphic oracle. Does anyone know anything
> > about the Pythoness? Or know of any sources/resources that can throw
> > some light on the matter?
> >
> > I'd like to know, if possible, how the Pythoness was chosen, whether
> > the choice was limited to any particular family or group of families,
> > how she was reared and trained, what language she used, and how the
> > priest of Apollo translated her utterances.
> >
> > Any help with this will be much appreciated.
>
> age, thought not to be of an elite family, and was among the women of
> Delphi and not from other city-states. What training or education etc.
> so far as I know is not known. Not sure what you mean by language...
My impression is that the Delphic oracle incorporated a compromise between
the old (pre-Greek) religion and the new (Greek), and that the Pythoness
represented the old and the priest of Apollo the new. It occurred to me
that if so, and if Pythonic utterances were ever recorded, religious
coservatism might have resulted in some remnants of pre-Greek language
being recorded.
> likely a mixture of Greek and gibberish "interpreted" by the priests
> with the oracle then written and passed on to the suppliant.
Mmm, yes. I'm aware of the cynical practices of the oracle in Classical
times, but I wonder what it was like before that, and whether there's any
record from earlier times.
----snip----
Thanks for the references.
Ned
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> >
> > This is an enquiry about the Delphic oracle. Does anyone know anything
> > about the Pythoness? Or know of any sources/resources that can throw
> > some light on the matter?
> >
> > I'd like to know, if possible, how the Pythoness was chosen, whether
>
> There were three of them, an old one, a middle aged one and a young one
> and they took it in turns.
??? I thought that there was only one at any given point in time.
> > the choice was limited to any particular family or group of families,
>
> No. I don't think they were allowed to marry.
But presumably, their parents were, and had family affiliations. That's
what I'm asking about.
> > how she was reared and trained, what language she used, and how the
>
> Greek hexameter.
That was the priest's medium. The Pythoness, we're told, spoke in a
manner that was unintelligible to all but the priest, which is why he
had to interpret it.
> > priest of Apollo translated her utterances.
>
> They sent carrier pigeons to carry messages back and forth and the
> utterances were devised by the priests (who could also be bribed to say
> wherever you wanted as they were by Athens)
I presume you're referring to the wooden wall?
> based on what was in the
> intelligence brought to the temple.
I'm aware of the oracle's intelligence service and its very cynical
operation in pre-Classical, Classical and later times. I gather you're
saying that it was a scam from day one: is that correct?
Ned Latham
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
> Agamemnon wrote:
>> Ned Latham wrote:
>> >
>> > This is an enquiry about the Delphic oracle. Does anyone know anything
>> > about the Pythoness? Or know of any sources/resources that can throw
>> > some light on the matter?
>> >
>> > I'd like to know, if possible, how the Pythoness was chosen, whether
>>
>> There were three of them, an old one, a middle aged one and a young one
>> and they took it in turns.
>
> ??? I thought that there was only one at any given point in time.
>
There were three. They each took it in turns. If you were lucky you got the
young pretty one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythia
>> > the choice was limited to any particular family or group of families,
>>
>> No. I don't think they were allowed to marry.
>
> But presumably, their parents were, and had family affiliations. That's
> what I'm asking about.
From Euripides' Ion it's most likely that they were children who were left
to the priests by their parents.
>
>> > how she was reared and trained, what language she used, and how the
>>
>> Greek hexameter.
>
> That was the priest's medium. The Pythoness, we're told, spoke in a
> manner that was unintelligible to all but the priest, which is why he
> had to interpret it.
The priestess spoke in hexameter. It was perfectly intelligible. The only
thing that needed interpreting was stuff like walls meaning ships hulls or
Sparta will lose a king or lose a kingdom or you will destroy a great
empire.
>
>> > priest of Apollo translated her utterances.
>>
>> They sent carrier pigeons to carry messages back and forth and the
>> utterances were devised by the priests (who could also be bribed to say
>> wherever you wanted as they were by Athens)
>
> I presume you're referring to the wooden wall?
Nope. Before that, during the reign of the Peisistradae, then the Spartans
discovered it when they captured Athens and found out that they had been
deceived with false oracles.
>
>> based on what was in the
>> intelligence brought to the temple.
>
> I'm aware of the oracle's intelligence service and its very cynical
> operation in pre-Classical, Classical and later times. I gather you're
> saying that it was a scam from day one: is that correct?
Yes, more or less. Even Euripides mentions that the place was full
pigeons/doves and that is the only way that it could have known what Croesus
was doing on the day his ambassadors arrived.
>
> Ned Latham
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
> Weland wrote:
>> Ned Latham wrote:
>> >
>> > This is an enquiry about the Delphic oracle. Does anyone know anything
>> > about the Pythoness? Or know of any sources/resources that can throw
>> > some light on the matter?
>> >
>> > I'd like to know, if possible, how the Pythoness was chosen, whether
>> > the choice was limited to any particular family or group of families,
>> > how she was reared and trained, what language she used, and how the
>> > priest of Apollo translated her utterances.
>> >
>> > Any help with this will be much appreciated.
>>
>> Not much is known. The bare outlines are that she was past child-bearing
>> age, thought not to be of an elite family, and was among the women of
>> Delphi and not from other city-states. What training or education etc.
>> so far as I know is not known. Not sure what you mean by language...
>
> My impression is that the Delphic oracle incorporated a compromise between
> the old (pre-Greek) religion and the new (Greek), and that the Pythoness
There was no such thing.
The Greek religion of worshiping the 12 Olympian gods existed since
Mycenaean times as inscriptions have shown. Before the Olympians there was
no religion. Read Herodotus histories book 2.51.1
> represented the old and the priest of Apollo the new. It occurred to me
No. Before Apollo it was the oracle of Gaia and after her Themis who gave it
to Apollo. Zeus had his own oracle at Dodona.
> that if so, and if Pythonic utterances were ever recorded, religious
> coservatism might have resulted in some remnants of pre-Greek language
> being recorded.
Well considering that they were recorded and the first priestess of Apollo
was Phemonoe who lived in 1360 BC according to the standard chronology then
it would have been written in Linear B which is Greek and in hexameter.
Linear A by this time had ceased to be used.
>
>> likely a mixture of Greek and gibberish "interpreted" by the priests
>> with the oracle then written and passed on to the suppliant.
>
> Mmm, yes. I'm aware of the cynical practices of the oracle in Classical
> times, but I wonder what it was like before that, and whether there's any
> record from earlier times.
Yes. The prophesy of Acrisus being killed by his own grandson was the first
prophesy from the Pythia, c.1360 BC
Larry Caldwell
n...@woden.valhalla.oz (Ned Latham) says...
> This is an enquiry about the Delphic oracle. Does anyone know anything
> about the Pythoness? Or know of any sources/resources that can throw
> some light on the matter?
>
> I'd like to know, if possible, how the Pythoness was chosen, whether
> the choice was limited to any particular family or group of families,
> how she was reared and trained, what language she used, and how the
> priest of Apollo translated her utterances.
There may have been some relationship to the priestesses of Athena, who
had a prominent temple at Delphi (Athena Pronaos) and was the sister of
Apollo and the goddess of wisdom. The site was a cult center before the
Greeks, but only a few vague legends survive.
> Any help with this will be much appreciated.
The Pythian Games were the earliest games, dating from the 8th century.
They were poetry and music competitions. Originally they were held
every 8 years, but after the Olympiad was established they were changed
to once every 4 years, to fit the cycle of Olympic, Nemean, Isthmian and
Pythian games.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
Agamemnon
"Larry Caldwell" <firstnamel...@peaksky.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.259298b63...@news.peaksky.com...
> In article <slrnhigm0b...@woden.valhalla.oz>,
> n...@woden.valhalla.oz (Ned Latham) says...
>> This is an enquiry about the Delphic oracle. Does anyone know anything
>> about the Pythoness? Or know of any sources/resources that can throw
>> some light on the matter?
>>
>> I'd like to know, if possible, how the Pythoness was chosen, whether
>> the choice was limited to any particular family or group of families,
>> how she was reared and trained, what language she used, and how the
>> priest of Apollo translated her utterances.
>
> There may have been some relationship to the priestesses of Athena, who
> had a prominent temple at Delphi (Athena Pronaos) and was the sister of
Half-sister. Artemis was his full sister.
> Apollo and the goddess of wisdom. The site was a cult center before the
> Greeks, but only a few vague legends survive.
The Greeks were there since 1900 BC. The Greek religion was created between
1628 and 1472 BC based on Herodotus. Before that time there was no religion
practiced in Greece.
>
>> Any help with this will be much appreciated.
>
> The Pythian Games were the earliest games, dating from the 8th century.
No they weren't. The Olympic games were first held in about 1670 BC and then
held by Hellen in about 1400 BC then by Pelops in 1317 BC and by Herakles in
about 1242 BC and then revived in 776 BC.
Weland
Aggie is a true believer, Ned. If the ancient Greek sources say it is
so, in Aggie's mind it is so. Take what he says in that light.
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> > Agamemnon wrote:
----snip----
> > > They sent carrier pigeons to carry messages back and forth and the
> > > utterances were devised by the priests (who could also be bribed to
> > > say wherever you wanted as they were by Athens)
> >
> > I presume you're referring to the wooden wall?
> >
> > > based on what was
> > > in the intelligence brought to the temple.
> >
> > I'm aware of the oracle's intelligence service and its very cynical
> > operation in pre-Classical, Classical and later times. I gather you're
> > saying that it was a scam from day one: is that correct?
>
> Aggie is a true believer, Ned.
Well, yes. But aren't we all believers in our own correctness?
> If the ancient Greek sources say it is
> so, in Aggie's mind it is so.
Only if it agrees with his position. For example, in this very thread, he
has denied that there was ever any pre-Greek religion, despite Herodotos.
> Take what he says in that light.
I take it all with a grain of salt. But I always look at it, because he
has a lot of information at his fingertips.
Ned
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
> Weland wrote:
>> Ned Latham wrote:
>> > Agamemnon wrote:
>
> ----snip----
>
>> > > They sent carrier pigeons to carry messages back and forth and the
>> > > utterances were devised by the priests (who could also be bribed to
>> > > say wherever you wanted as they were by Athens)
>> >
>> > I presume you're referring to the wooden wall?
>> >
>> > > based on what was
>> > > in the intelligence brought to the temple.
>> >
>> > I'm aware of the oracle's intelligence service and its very cynical
>> > operation in pre-Classical, Classical and later times. I gather you're
>> > saying that it was a scam from day one: is that correct?
>>
>> Aggie is a true believer, Ned.
>
> Well, yes. But aren't we all believers in our own correctness?
>
>> If the ancient Greek sources say it is
>> so, in Aggie's mind it is so.
>
> Only if it agrees with his position. For example, in this very thread, he
> has denied that there was ever any pre-Greek religion, despite Herodotos.
Clearly you have not read Herodotus or if you have you have not understood
what he said.
No religion existed in Greece before the Egyptians brought the names of the
gods to the inhabitants who before didn't worship anyone or anything by any
disticnt name or appellation. Thus there was no pre-Greek religion.
Magog
Most certainly Pelasgians were practicing religion before arrival of
Greeks.
Agamemnon
"Magog" <iispec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d3118900-fbb7-409e...@y32g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
The Pelasgians WERE Greeks. The Pelasgian language was Arcado-Cypriot since
the Pelasgians came from Arcadia, which is of course otherwise referred to
as Mycenaean Greek. There was no Pelasgian religion before Danaus came to
Greece and initiated Pelasgus the king of Argos in the names and
appellations of the gods. And Danaus of course was the brother of Aegyptus
whose reign Jerome dates to 1480 BC meaning that he was Djehutymes III
1479-1425 BC in the Low Chronology, whereas Jerome dates Danaus reign at
Argos to 1474 to 1424 BC in the standard ancient Greek chronology.
If there was any religion practiced in Greece before Danaus then it was
exactly the same as the Phoenician religion since Philo identifies the
origin of Greek gods Kronos and Uranus as being the same as that of the
Phoenician gods El and Baal Shamen, and this religion did not exist before
at least 1700 BC which is when El otherwise known as Kronos or Saturn came
to power, and evidence of this is found in Crete with Linear A inscriptions
of his name Satur dating to 1700 BC. Kronos and Uranus are also the same as
the Hurrian gods Kumarbi and Anu and the Hindu gods Brahma and Varuna all of
whom lived and reigned at the same time just before the Ogygian Deluge
caused by the Thera Eruption in 1628 BC. The Hurrian, Phoenican, Greek and
Romans religions all share the same story of Uranus being dethroned by
Kronos and his genitals being cut off with a sickle. The Hindus also have
Zeus aka. Deyus-Piter or Jupiter as the successor of Brahma/Kronos/Saturn
who can be identified with the Hurrian god Taru or Teshub also written
Teshup who dethroned Kumarbi. Teshup-Taru is probably a corruption of
Deus-Piter. According to the Hurrian account Teshup was conceived from the
genitals of Anu which Kumarbi swallowed and thus was born from his stomach
which is similar to the Greek account of Kronos swallowing his children
except for Zeus who Gaia substituted a stone for.
No Hurrian religion existed before Anu and his father Alalu who is
equivalent to the Phoenician god Elyon therefore the Greek religion before
Uranus either didn't exist or was the same as the Phoenician which is also
the basis of the Jewish religion since the Jews also worship Elyon (the most
high), his grandson El and El's son Jehovah who may or may not be Poseidon
otherwise known as Yah or Yam-Nahar, Sea-River, since Poseidon was supposed
to have been obtained by the Greeks from the Libyans, probably the
predecessors of the Phoenician colony of Carthage. The Orphic god Khronos is
most probably based on one of the Aletae or Titans from the Phoenician
pantheon who are the same as the Jewish Elohim who created the world.
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
----snip----
> > > Aggie is a true believer, Ned.
> >
> > Well, yes. But aren't we all believers in our own correctness?
> >
> > > If the ancient Greek sources say
> > > it is so, in Aggie's mind it is so.
> >
> > Only if it agrees with his position. For example, in this very
> > thread, he has denied that there was ever any pre-Greek religion,
> > despite Herodotos.
>
> Clearly you have not read Herodotus
Given that I used his name, that almost amounts to accusing me of
fabrication. Don't judge others by yourself, Aggie, unless you're
willing to risk underestimating them.
> or if you have you have not
> understood what he said.
Quit projecting.
> No religion existed in Greece before the Egyptians brought the names
> of the gods to the inhabitants
...who were Pelasgians, which is to say, a pre-Greek people.
> who before didn't worship anyone or anything
> by any disticnt name or appellation.
Feel free to back up that absurd assertion with some sort of reference.
(Not that it matters to this point, because even if it were true, those
people were religious after that time, and before the Greek occupation.)
> Thus there was no pre-Greek religion.
"When what is now called Greece was occupied by the Pelasgians, the
Athenians, a Pelasgian people, were called Kranai."
-- Herodotos 8:44
and
"... one may conclude that the Athenians, being themselves a Pelasgian
people, changed their language when they were absorbed into the Greek
family of nations."
-- Herodotos 1:57
Suck it up, Aggie: the Pelasgian peoples were pre-Greek peoples and they
were religious.
Ned Latham
ADR
Aggie, baby, why do you have to make yourself look like an idiot every
time??
> The Greek religion of worshiping the 12 Olympian gods existed since
> Mycenaean times as inscriptions have shown. Before the Olympians there was
> no religion. Read Herodotus histories book 2.51.1
And you believe that Herodotus knew well what was happening at 2000
BCE???
Of course there was a religion in Greece prior to the arrival of the
Greeks. There are substantial archaeological finds. IN addition,
analysis of the Greek myths and the Greek religion as it evolved
clearly shows to the extent to which pre-Greek religious beliefs were
integrated into the Greek typical Indoeuropean pantheon. And yes,
indeed, Delphi to a great degree represents part of that synthesis.
Ein Sof
> "Magog" <iispeciali...@gmail.com> wrote in message
If Pelasgians were Greeks, why were they called Pelasgians instead of
being called Greeks or vice versa?
>
> If there was any religion practiced in Greece before Danaus then it was
> exactly the same as the Phoenician religion
You stated previously that there was no religion, did you change your
mind?
>
> No Hurrian religion existed before Anu and his father Alalu who is
<<snip>>
Hurrians had religion just as any other people did for as long as they
existed.
It is erroneous to make such an absolute statements as you do, young
man.
<<snip>>
Agamemnon
"ADR" <aret...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fe3f0b94-f3b2-4ea3...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 16, 6:19 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
<<<Aggie, baby, why do you have to make yourself look like an idiot every
time??>>>
You are the one making yourself look an idiot.
> The Greek religion of worshiping the 12 Olympian gods existed since
> Mycenaean times as inscriptions have shown. Before the Olympians there was
> no religion. Read Herodotus histories book 2.51.1
<<And you believe that Herodotus knew well what was happening at 2000
BCE???>>>
Why would he. The Egyptians came to Greece with the names of the gods in
1474 BC
<<<Of course there was a religion in Greece prior to the arrival of the
Greeks. >>>
No there wasn't.
<<<There are substantial archaeological finds. IN addition,>>>
Which don't provide any evidence whatsoever for the existence of any
religion before the time and events Herodotus is referring to.
<<<analysis of the Greek myths and the Greek religion as it evolved
clearly shows to the extent to which pre-Greek religious beliefs were
integrated into the Greek typical Indoeuropean pantheon. And yes,>>>
As I have explained already all the so-called Indo-European gods were the
same as the Phoenician and Hurrian gods and all appeared at the same time in
about 1700 BC since they were all deified kings and is stated clearly by
Philo, Porphyry and Eusebius.
<<<indeed, Delphi to a great degree represents part of that synthesis.>>>
No it doesn't. You don't have a clue about Delphi or the Greek religion.
Agamemnon
"Ein Sof" <iispec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:be6326b7-c6a2-460a...@d9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
The word Greeks comes from the name of Greacus the son of Thessalus the son
of Haemon the son of Pelasgus. Graecus was contemporary with Aeolus, Dorus
and Xuthus the sons of Hellene the son of Deucalion. Thus the Greeks are
Pelasgians and the Pelasgians are Greeks.
>
> If there was any religion practiced in Greece before Danaus then it was
> exactly the same as the Phoenician religion
<<<You stated previously that there was no religion, did you change your
mind?>>>
There was no pre-Greek religion. Based on the Ras Sharma Tablets the
Phoenician religion practicing the worship of El, Elyon and Baal did not
exist and was not codified until somewhere between 1600 and 1400 BC which
about the same time as the Greek religion was created and codified also,
since both are based on exactly the same people, events and source
mythology.
>
> No Hurrian religion existed before Anu and his father Alalu who is
<<<<<snip>>
Hurrians had religion just as any other people did for as long as they
existed.
It is erroneous to make such an absolute statements as you do, young
man.>>>
The Hurrians had no religion whatsoever before Anu and Alalu. The knew of no
gods before they came into contact with the Babylonians and had no gods of
their own until the events concerning Alalu, Anu and Kumabi had occurred and
a mythology was created around them, which happened at the same time as the
Greek, Phoenician and Hindu religions were created since they were based on
the same common kings who ruled over all of these lands and events.
The Hurrian god Anu is the same historical king as the Greek god Uranus and
the Hindu god Varuna. The Hurrian god Alalu is the same historical king as
the Phoenician god Elyon. Kumabi is the same entity as Kronos, Saturn,
Brahma and El for the Greeks, Romans, Hindus and Phoenicians and the Minoan
king Satur whose name was also used by half a dozen Mittani kings who were
an offshoot of the Hurrians. The Hurrian god Teshup Taru is the same entity
as Zeus Deus, Deus Pater/Jupiter and Deyus Piter for the Greeks, Romans and
Hindus and probably Dushara and Zeus-Belus for the Arabs and Phoenicians and
is the Egyptian Hyksos king Sheshi and Minoan king Saasitepi otherwise
called Ausstaeb or Istaveon who ruled over Lato/Lyctos and Tylissos
otherwise known as Goulas which was the city of Zeus according to Diodorus
and others and is also mentioned in Linear B inscriptions.
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
> Agamemnon wrote:
>> Ned Latham wrote:
>> > Weland wrote:
>
> ----snip----
>
>> > > Aggie is a true believer, Ned.
>> >
>> > Well, yes. But aren't we all believers in our own correctness?
>> >
>> > > If the ancient Greek sources say
>> > > it is so, in Aggie's mind it is so.
>> >
>> > Only if it agrees with his position. For example, in this very
>> > thread, he has denied that there was ever any pre-Greek religion,
>> > despite Herodotos.
>>
>> Clearly you have not read Herodotus
>
> Given that I used his name, that almost amounts to accusing me of
> fabrication. Don't judge others by yourself, Aggie, unless you're
> willing to risk underestimating them.
>
>> or if you have you have not
>> understood what he said.
>
> Quit projecting.
>
>> No religion existed in Greece before the Egyptians brought the names
>> of the gods to the inhabitants
>
> ...who were Pelasgians, which is to say, a pre-Greek people.
Nope. Stop making yourself look like an uneducated fool.
The word Greeks comes from the name of Greacus the son of Thessalus the son
of Haemon the son of Pelasgus. Graecus was contemporary with Aeolus, Dorus
and Xuthus the sons of Hellene the son of Deucalion. Thus the Greeks are
Pelasgians and the Pelasgians are Greeks.
>
>> who before didn't worship anyone or anything
>> by any disticnt name or appellation.
>
> Feel free to back up that absurd assertion with some sort of reference.
The only thing absurd is what you have written. I have already provided a
reference. Herodotus 2.52.1 and
> (Not that it matters to this point, because even if it were true, those
> people were religious after that time, and before the Greek occupation.)
>
>> Thus there was no pre-Greek religion.
>
> "When what is now called Greece was occupied by the Pelasgians, the
> Athenians, a Pelasgian people, were called Kranai."
> -- Herodotos 8:44
What about it?
The Pelasgians were Greeks by definition.
>
> and
>
> "... one may conclude that the Athenians, being themselves a Pelasgian
> people, changed their language when they were absorbed into the Greek
> family of nations."
> -- Herodotos 1:57
TOTALLY CLUELESS aren't you?
READ IT IN GREEK!
Herodotus uses the word HELLENIC. The Hellenes were the decedents of Hellene
king of Hellas the son of Deucalion king of Pthiotis. The Greeks were the
decendetans of Graecus the son the Thessalus king of Thessaly the son of
Haemon the son of Pelasgus king of Arcadia
>
> Suck it up, Aggie: the Pelasgian peoples were pre-Greek peoples and they
> were religious.
You don't have even the remotest clue of what you are talking about.
The Pelasgians were Greeks who migrated from Arcadia to Thessaly. They spoke
the Arcado-Cypriot dialect which is also known as Mycenean Greek.
Both the Pelasgians/Greeks and Hellenes spoke the same language currently
known as Greek. The Hellenes spoke the Doric-Aeolic dialect or the
Attic-Ionic dialect and the Pelasgians/Greeks spoke the Arcado-Cypriot
dialect which is more closely related to Attic-Ionic than Doric-Aeolic is.
>
> Ned Latham
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
----snip----
> > > No religion existed in Greece before the Egyptians brought the
> > > names of the gods to the inhabitants
> >
> > ...who were Pelasgians, which is to say, a pre-Greek people.
>
> Nope.
Yep.
> Stop making yourself look like an uneducated fool.
But... but... I don't know what you look like.
----snip----
Ned Latham
ADR
> "ADR" <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fe3f0b94-f3b2-4ea3...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 16, 6:19 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
> <<<Aggie, baby, why do you have to make yourself look like an idiot every
> time??>>>
>
> You are the one making yourself look an idiot.
Trust me, you do not want to take a poll on this one
> > The Greek religion of worshiping the 12 Olympian gods existed since
> > Mycenaean times as inscriptions have shown. Before the Olympians there was
> > no religion. Read Herodotus histories book 2.51.1
>
> <<And you believe that Herodotus knew well what was happening at 2000
> BCE???>>>
>
> Why would he. The Egyptians came to Greece with the names of the gods in
> 1474 BC
Ah what??? Where do you uncover these gems??? I would suggest that
you may want to write the "alternate history of the ancient world"
just to let all of us get some good belly laughs. And where exactly
did you get this day and the context???
> <<<Of course there was a religion in Greece prior to the arrival of the
> Greeks. >>>
>
> No there wasn't.
OK Aggie....Now, do not get flustered
> <<<There are substantial archaeological finds. IN addition,>>>
>
> Which don't provide any evidence whatsoever for the existence of any
> religion before the time and events Herodotus is referring to.
Really? the archaeological finds do not provide any evidence??
> <<<analysis of the Greek myths and the Greek religion as it evolved
> clearly shows to the extent to which pre-Greek religious beliefs were
> integrated into the Greek typical Indoeuropean pantheon. And yes,>>>
>
> As I have explained already all the so-called Indo-European gods were the
> same as the Phoenician and Hurrian gods and all appeared at the same time in
> about 1700 BC since they were all deified kings and is stated clearly by
> Philo, Porphyry and Eusebius.
How come all the historians in the world do not know this and you do?
Can you explain this?
> <<<indeed, Delphi to a great degree represents part of that synthesis.>>>
>
> No it doesn't. You don't have a clue about Delphi or the Greek religion.
Yes, Aggie, you are correct. I know nothing!!! ....humbly going
away....
Agamemnon
On Dec 19, 1:49 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> "ADR" <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fe3f0b94-f3b2-4ea3...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 16, 6:19 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
> <<<Aggie, baby, why do you have to make yourself look like an idiot every
> time??>>>
>
> You are the one making yourself look an idiot.
<<<Trust me, you do not want to take a poll on this one>>>
I don't need to take a poll. It's blatantly obvious.
> > The Greek religion of worshiping the 12 Olympian gods existed since
> > Mycenaean times as inscriptions have shown. Before the Olympians there
> > was
> > no religion. Read Herodotus histories book 2.51.1
>
> <<And you believe that Herodotus knew well what was happening at 2000
> BCE???>>>
>
> Why would he. The Egyptians came to Greece with the names of the gods in
> 1474 BC
<<<Ah what??? Where do you uncover these gems??? I would suggest that>>>
From historical documents. Obviously this is all above your head.
<<<you may want to write the "alternate history of the ancient world"
just to let all of us get some good belly laughs. And where exactly
did you get this day and the context???>>>
You are complexly crazy. The date and history given is the date and history
accepted by all ancient, medieval and renascence historians including Sir
Isaac Newton, and all genuine modern day historians.
> <<<Of course there was a religion in Greece prior to the arrival of the
> Greeks. >>>
>
> No there wasn't.
<<<OK Aggie....Now, do not get flustered>>>
> <<<There are substantial archaeological finds. IN addition,>>>
>
> Which don't provide any evidence whatsoever for the existence of any
> religion before the time and events Herodotus is referring to.
<<<Really? the archaeological finds do not provide any evidence??>>>
No they do not. Only written documents referring to gods and worship provide
evidence and those documents including those written in Linear B document
the worship of the Olympian gods and before them nothing.
> <<<analysis of the Greek myths and the Greek religion as it evolved
> clearly shows to the extent to which pre-Greek religious beliefs were
> integrated into the Greek typical Indoeuropean pantheon. And yes,>>>
>
> As I have explained already all the so-called Indo-European gods were the
> same as the Phoenician and Hurrian gods and all appeared at the same time
> in
> about 1700 BC since they were all deified kings and is stated clearly by
> Philo, Porphyry and Eusebius.
<<<How come all the historians in the world do not know this and you do?
Can you explain this?>>>
All the historians in the world who specialise in the period in question and
have read the historical documents from and pertaining to this period know
this. You clearly are the exception, but then again you are not a genuine
historian. I have already given you the references. Read them.
> <<<indeed, Delphi to a great degree represents part of that synthesis.>>>
>
> No it doesn't. You don't have a clue about Delphi or the Greek religion.
<<<Yes, Aggie, you are correct. I know nothing!!! ....humbly going
away....>>>
Good.
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
> Agamemnon wrote:
>> Ned Latham wrote:
>
> ----snip----
>
>> > > No religion existed in Greece before the Egyptians brought the
>> > > names of the gods to the inhabitants
>> >
>> > ...who were Pelasgians, which is to say, a pre-Greek people.
>>
>> Nope.
>
> Yep.
Nope. The Pelasgians were Greeks.
The name Greeks was coined by the Romans from Graecus the son the Thessalus
king of Thessaly the son of Haemon the son of Pelasgus king of Arcadia since
the Pelasgians were the first people from Greece that the Romans encounterd
since the Pelasgians colonised Italy in Mycenean times (1500-1200 BC).
The language of Graecus was the same language as Pelasgus and was
Arcado-Cypriot otherwise known as Mycenaean Greek.
When the Romans later encountered the Hellenes who were the descendants of
Hellene king of Hellas the son of Deucalion king of Pthiotis when they
colonised Italy from about the time of the first Olympiad (776 BC) and the
foundation of Rome by Romulus i(753 BC) they were also called Greeks since
they spoke the same language as the Pelasgian tribes that still lived in
Italy at the time some of whom who came with Evander in 1250 BC had become
Roman citizens.
[Herodotus 1.58.1] The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin,
changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of
the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in
numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a
multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of
numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I
think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied.
[1.57.1] What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any
certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken by
the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at Creston
above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district named
Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the Dorians- or
those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the Hellespont, who had
previously dwelt for some time with the Athenians- or those, in short, of
any other of the cities which have dropped the name but are in fact
Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must
pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really
so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who
were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time
that they passed into the Hellenic body; for it is a certain fact that the
people of Creston speak a language unlike any of their neighbours, and the
same is true of the Placianians, while the language spoken by these two
people is the same; which shows that they both retain the idiom which they
brought with them into the countries where they are now settled.
>
>> Stop making yourself look like an uneducated fool.
>
> But... but... I don't know what you look like.
That's is because you only know what uneducated fools like yourself look
like.
>
> ----snip----
>
> Ned Latham
ADR
> I don't need to take a poll. It's blatantly obvious.
I agree that it is obvious. Virtually all here would agree that you
are an idiot.
> > Why would he. The Egyptians came to Greece with the names of the gods in
> > 1474 BC
>
> <<<Ah what??? Where do you uncover these gems??? I would suggest that>>>
>
> From historical documents. Obviously this is all above your head.
Which historical documents mention Egyptians bringing the names of
Gods to Greece in 1474 BCE? I want to know
> <<<you may want to write the "alternate history of the ancient world"
> just to let all of us get some good belly laughs. And where exactly
> did you get this day and the context???>>>
>
> You are complexly crazy. The date and history given is the date and history
> accepted by all ancient, medieval and renascence historians including Sir
> Isaac Newton, and all genuine modern day historians.
Sir Isaac Newton? I stay humbled. Is it me or did Sir Isaac had no
clue how to read ancient Egyptian or Linear B tablets etc, etc? How
did he get to know what the Egyptians did in 1747 BCE? And what
happened to all the modern historians? Did we throw all of them over
the bridge?
> <<<Really? the archaeological finds do not provide any evidence??>>>
>
> No they do not. Only written documents referring to gods and worship provide
> evidence and those documents including those written in Linear B document
> the worship of the Olympian gods and before them nothing.
Ah...now I get it. If there are no written documents, there is no
religion!!! That kind of makes sense in a warped world, I guess. So,
religion was invented with writing then, is that true? No writing, no
religion, right?
> All the historians in the world who specialise in the period in question and
> have read the historical documents from and pertaining to this period know
> this. You clearly are the exception, but then again you are not a genuine
> historian. I have already given you the references. Read them.
You have given squat. Just jot down the well known modern historians
that agree with your thesis. I need to check it out.
ADR
Do you make it up as you go?
> [Herodotus 1.58.1] The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin,
> changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of
> the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in
> numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a
> multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of
> numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I
> think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied.
>
> [1.57.1] What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any
> certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken by
> the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at Creston
> above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district named
> Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the Dorians- or
> those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the Hellespont, who had
> previously dwelt for some time with the Athenians- or those, in short, of
> any other of the cities which have dropped the name but are in fact
> Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must
> pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really
> so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who
> were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time
> that they passed into the Hellenic body; for it is a certain fact that the
> people of Creston speak a language unlike any of their neighbours, and the
> same is true of the Placianians, while the language spoken by these two
> people is the same; which shows that they both retain the idiom which they
> brought with them into the countries where they are now settled.
I am sorry to burst your bubble, but if we believe Herodotus on this,
you can believe all the stories about Zeus and the abduction of Europa
and so on (and you probably do). Herodotus himself seems to be
confused about who the Pelasgians were but in any case, the man cannot
be taken at face value as relaying anything else than myths while
writing in the 5th century about events in the 20th century BCE.
In any case, we ***do know definitively*** that the Pelasgians were
not Greek. Today,there are a lot of of pre-Greek words and toponyms
in ancient/medieval/modern Greek not to know about it. Toponyms
including the -th- sound and the -ssos and -tos sounds are not Greek
as they are no Greek roots (or Indoeuropean roots) for them. Typical
pre-Greek toponyms are Athens (Atheneae), Corinth (Corinthos),
Larissa, Ilissos, Kifissos (river in Athens), Acheloos (river in
central Greece), Olympos and others. The Greek word for the sea
(thalassa, thalatta) and ocean (okeanos) is also pre-Greek. Many
others exist. The evolution of toponyms allows one to follow areas of
pre-Greek settlements and their evolution after the arrival of the
Greeks by the presence of proto-Greek and Greek toponyms.
Feel free, of course, to junk all of the above (most of which is even
in typical school books) for your fantasies.
Tiglath
> On Dec 16, 6:19 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
> Aggie, baby, why do you have to make yourself look like an idiot every
> time??
>
> > The Greek religion of worshiping the 12 Olympian gods existed since
> > Mycenaean times as inscriptions have shown. Before the Olympians there was
> > no religion. Read Herodotus histories book 2.51.1
>
> And you believe that Herodotus knew well what was happening at 2000
> BCE???
> Of course there was a religion in Greece prior to the arrival of the
> Greeks.
ADR is absolutely right on this one. For one the Minoan civilization
had plenty of goddesses, and it was not confined to Crete for they
were traders and their culture spread far and wide.
It is in fact moronic to posit any primitive group of humans without a
religion, when science was not at hand to tell them things like that
the ball of fire in the sky was not a god but just a ball of burning
hydrogen.
Aggie is again winning the Stupid Olympics by a large margin.
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> > Agamemnon wrote:
> > > Ned Latham wrote:
> >
> > ----snip----
> >
> > > > > No religion existed in Greece before the Egyptians brought the
> > > > > names of the gods to the inhabitants
> > > >
> > > > ...who were Pelasgians, which is to say, a pre-Greek people.
> > >
> > > Nope.
> >
> > Yep.
>
> Nope. The Pelasgians were Greeks.
Your own evidence below says otherwise.
----irrelevant twaddle snipped----
> [1.57.1] What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any
> certainty.
So unlike you, Tlwch Agamemnon, Herodotos is not certain what it is.
> If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken
> by the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at
> Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district
> named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the
> Dorians- or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the
> Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some time with the Athenians-
> or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the
> name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture
> from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous
> language.
In other words, Tlwch Agamemnon, he concludes that it was not Greek.
Suck it up, Aggie. The Pelasgians were not Greek.
----snip----
> > > Stop making yourself look like an uneducated fool.
> >
> > But... but... I don't know what you look like.
>
> That's is because you only know what
... can be determined rationally.
> uneducated fools like
... crank "theories" such as "the pre-Greek peoples of Greece were Greeks".
LOL
----snip----
Ned Latham
Agamemnon
"Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message
news:1d3bf37a-7ffa-4dc3...@o9g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 18, 11:47 am, ADR <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 16, 6:19 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
> Aggie, baby, why do you have to make yourself look like an idiot every
> time??
>
> > The Greek religion of worshiping the 12 Olympian gods existed since
> > Mycenaean times as inscriptions have shown. Before the Olympians there
> > was
> > no religion. Read Herodotus histories book 2.51.1
>
> And you believe that Herodotus knew well what was happening at 2000
> BCE???
> Of course there was a religion in Greece prior to the arrival of the
> Greeks.
<<<ADR is absolutely right on this one. For one the Minoan civilization
had plenty of goddesses, and it was not confined to Crete for they
were traders and their culture spread far and wide.>>>
Absolute rubbish. Since nothing in Linear A can actually be read apart from
a few names there is no way to identity anything as a goddess. You are
making stuff up. The so-called Minoans didn't have a religion because their
kings became the gods of the Greeks and Romans including Satur ie. Saturn.
<<<It is in fact moronic to posit any primitive group of humans without a
religion, when science was not at hand to tell them things like that>>>
WRONG. It is in fact moronic to posit any primitive group of humans with a
religion. Do cats worship gods, do dogs? Can you see how idiotic you sound?
<<<the ball of fire in the sky was not a god but just a ball of burning
hydrogen.>>>
You are obviously crazy. The ball of fire in the sky was just a ball of fire
in the sky. Are you telling me that moths have gods too?
<<<Aggie is again winning the Stupid Olympics by a large margin.>>>
Carry on making a moronic fool of yourself.
Agamemnon
On Dec 20, 4:26 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> I don't need to take a poll. It's blatantly obvious.
<<<I agree that it is obvious. Virtually all here would agree that you
are an idiot.>>>
You are projecting. As well as being an idiot it is clear that you don't
have any clue about ancient history either.
> > Why would he. The Egyptians came to Greece with the names of the gods in
> > 1474 BC
>
> <<<Ah what??? Where do you uncover these gems??? I would suggest that>>>
>
> From historical documents. Obviously this is all above your head.
<<<Which historical documents mention Egyptians bringing the names of
Gods to Greece in 1474 BCE? I want to know>>>
Herodotus, all those commenting on Herodotus, and Eusebius and Jerome.
> <<<you may want to write the "alternate history of the ancient world"
> just to let all of us get some good belly laughs. And where exactly
> did you get this day and the context???>>>
>
> You are complexly crazy. The date and history given is the date and
> history
> accepted by all ancient, medieval and renascence historians including Sir
> Isaac Newton, and all genuine modern day historians.
<<<Sir Isaac Newton? I stay humbled. Is it me or did Sir Isaac had no
clue how to read ancient Egyptian or Linear B tablets etc, etc? How>>>
What difference does that make? Ancient Egyptian and Linear B tablets
support the standard anceint Greek chronology.
<<<did he get to know what the Egyptians did in 1747 BCE? And what>>>
Totally irrelevant.
<<<happened to all the modern historians? Did we throw all of them over
the bridge?>>>
Modern historians only have what the ancients historians and chronographers
said to go by therefore they cannot be in disagreement with them and still
be regarded as historians.
> <<<Really? the archaeological finds do not provide any evidence??>>>
>
> No they do not. Only written documents referring to gods and worship
> provide
> evidence and those documents including those written in Linear B document
> the worship of the Olympian gods and before them nothing.
<<<Ah...now I get it. If there are no written documents, there is no
religion!!! That kind of makes sense in a warped world, I guess. So,
religion was invented with writing then, is that true? No writing, no
religion, right?>>>
Religion was invented by the ancient Babylonians and Egyptians who had
writing before anyone else and consisted entirely of the worship of their
departed ancestors. This is what all religion boils down too. The
Phoenicians did exactly the same thing and documents existed which showed
every step in their religions development from the deification and worship
of their own kings, as well as it also being the root of the ancient Greek
religion also.
> All the historians in the world who specialise in the period in question
> and
> have read the historical documents from and pertaining to this period know
> this. You clearly are the exception, but then again you are not a genuine
> historian. I have already given you the references. Read them.
<<<You have given squat. Just jot down the well known modern historians
that agree with your thesis. I need to check it out.>>>
All modern historians agree with everything I have said since it is also
what all ancient historians have said so they have no other option. If they
begin making stuff up which contradicts or is contradicted by ancient
historical texts then they are not historians but authors of fiction. And
let me make if perfectly clear to you once again that archaeologists are not
historians nor can anything they claim which is not from a written text be
regarded as history.
Agamemnon
As is abundantly clear to everyone, you don't have even the remotest clue
about ancient history.
You are the one who is confused about who the Pelasgians were, since every
other writer says exactly the same as Herodotus including the Romans. You
don't have about history or mythology at all. The two words are synonymous
in Greek.
<<<In any case, we ***do know definitively*** that the Pelasgians were
not Greek. Today,there are a lot of of pre-Greek words and toponyms>>>
WRONG! You know NOTHING of the kind.
<<<in ancient/medieval/modern Greek not to know about it. Toponyms
including the -th- sound and the -ssos and -tos sounds are not Greek
as they are no Greek roots (or Indoeuropean roots) for them. Typical>>>
What a load of IGNORANT CLUELESS PREPOSTEROUS BULLSHIT!
The TH sound, or rather the symbol for it was added to the Greek alphabet by
Palamedes in about 1200 BC. We also know from Linear B exactly where that
sound evolved from in the Greek language.
<<<pre-Greek toponyms are Athens (Atheneae), Corinth (Corinthos),
Larissa, Ilissos, Kifissos (river in Athens), Acheloos (river in
central Greece), Olympos and others. The Greek word for the sea
(thalassa, thalatta) and ocean (okeanos) is also pre-Greek. Many>>>
MORE PREPOSTEROUS BULLSHIT!
All of those words are Greek. Olympos comes from Oli mpia, which is Greek
meaning Where Everyone Goes. Oli has the same indo-European root as the
English word All and, Mpia has the same indo-European root as the Latin Via.
<<<others exist. The evolution of toponyms allows one to follow areas of
pre-Greek settlements and their evolution after the arrival of the
Greeks by the presence of proto-Greek and Greek toponyms.>>>
It allows you to do nothing of the kind since all these typonyms appear only
in historical texts written by the Greeks themselves in historical times
including Linear B when the Greeks were already present. They tell you
nothing about the evolution of the pre-Greek peoples if there was such a
thing. They only tell you about the evolutions of the Greeks.
<<<Feel free, of course, to junk all of the above (most of which is even
in typical school books) for your fantasies.>>>
What you have written above to completely unsubstantiated FANTASY!
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
> Agamemnon wrote:
>> Ned Latham wrote:
>> > Agamemnon wrote:
>> > > Ned Latham wrote:
>> > > > Agamemnon wrote:
>> >
>> > ----snip----
>> >
>> > > > > No religion existed in Greece before the Egyptians brought the
>> > > > > names of the gods to the inhabitants
>> > > >
>> > > > ...who were Pelasgians, which is to say, a pre-Greek people.
>> > >
>> > > Nope.
>> >
>> > Yep.
>>
>> Nope. The Pelasgians were Greeks.
>
> Your own evidence below says otherwise.
No it doesn't. You obviously have comprehensions problems.
>
> ----irrelevant twaddle snipped----
>
>> [1.57.1] What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any
>> certainty.
>
> So unlike you, Tlwch Agamemnon, Herodotos is not certain what it is.
>
>> If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken
>> by the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at
>> Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district
>> named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the
>> Dorians- or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the
>> Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some time with the Athenians-
>> or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the
>> name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture
>> from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous
>> language.
>
> In other words, Tlwch Agamemnon, he concludes that it was not Greek.
WRONG YOU DISSEMBLING LIAR!
Read the part again which you deliberately cut out.
[Herodotus 1.58.1] The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin,
changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of
the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in
numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a
multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of
numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I
think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied.
>
> Suck it up, Aggie. The Pelasgians were not Greek.
WRONG!
The Hellenic language was a branch of Pelasgian, and the Pelasgians are
Greeks by definition.
The Pelasgians spoke the Arcado-Cypriot Mycenaean dialect and Philistine
(Pelast ie. Pelasgians) inscriptions from Palestine also show they used
Greek names.
The Hellene Greeks separated from the Pelasgian Greeks in about 1400 BC and
were much more successful in multiplying.
>
> ----snip----
>
>> > > Stop making yourself look like an uneducated fool.
>> >
>> > But... but... I don't know what you look like.
>>
>> That's is because you only know what
>
> ... can be determined rationally.
You don't determine anything rationally.You just make things up out of
nothing.
>
>> uneducated fools like
>
> ... crank "theories" such as "the pre-Greek peoples of Greece were
> Greeks".
>
> LOL
You are clearly the crank.
>
> ----snip----
>
> Ned Latham
Ned Latham
----snip----
> Religion was invented by the ancient Babylonians and Egyptians who had
> writing before anyone else
Wrong. Get your head out of your arse. The Sumerians had writing before
them.
They had religion too, you blundering boob.
Ned Latham
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> > Agamemnon wrote:
> > > Ned Latham wrote:
> > > > Agamemnon wrote:
> > > > > Ned Latham wrote:
> > > > > > Agamemnon wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ----snip----
> > > >
> > > > > > > No religion existed in Greece before the Egyptians brought
> > > > > > > the names of the gods to the inhabitants
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...who were Pelasgians, which is to say, a pre-Greek people.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nope.
> > > >
> > > > Yep.
> > >
> > > Nope. The Pelasgians were Greeks.
> >
> > Your own evidence below says otherwise.
>
> No it doesn't. You obviously have comprehensions problems.
Quit prjecting, you idiot.
> > ----irrelevant twaddle snipped----
> >
> > > [1.57.1] What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any
> > > certainty.
> >
> > So unlike you, Tlwch Agamemnon, Herodotos is not certain what it is.
Try to get your pointy little had around this, bubblehead: Herodotos was
quite familiar with Greek (if you try real hard, you might be able to work
out why that's so), and he had heard Pelasgian speech. That he couldn't
say what it was means that it *can't* have been Greek.
> > > If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken
> > > by the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at
> > > Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district
> > > named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the
> > > Dorians- or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the
> > > Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some time with the Athenians-
> > > or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the
> > > name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture
> > > from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous
> > > language.
> >
> > In other words, Tlwch Agamemnon, he concludes that it was not Greek.
>
> WRONG YOU
You wrong me every time you describe me, you lying maggot.
> DISSEMBLING LIAR!
The .sig suit you. Now try to learn what will surely be the hard part for
you: putting it at the *end* of your posts.
> Read the part again which you deliberately cut out.
Of course I cut it deliberately, you idiot. Do you think that sort of
thing happens by accident? I cut it out because it was superfulous.
But if you want me to rub your nose even deeper in your idiocy...
> [Herodotus 1.58.1] The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin,
> changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of
> the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty
> in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to
> a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks
> of numerous tribes of barbarians.
So. The Hellenic race was a branch of the Pelasgic race. Tell us, Tlwch
Agamemnon, how do you recocile that with the next sentence?
> The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were,
> as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied.
Ooh, look: the Pelasgians were barbarians; ie, not Greeks.
> > Suck it up, Aggie. The Pelasgians were not Greek.
>
> WRONG!
You were ever thus.
> The Hellenic language was a branch of Pelasgian, and the Pelasgians are
> Greeks by definition.
LOL. "... a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied".
> The Pelasgians spoke
"... a barbarous language ...". See your own evidence above, you moron.
> the Arcado-Cypriot Mycenaean dialect
LOL. Your falsehoods get stupider and stupider. We know what language was
spoken by the Pelasgians who lived on Lemnos before Miltiades evicted them,
and that it's not Greek and not related to Greek.
----cretinous drivel and insane frothing at the mouth snipped----
Ned Latham
Gog
> "Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
>
>
> [Herodotus 1.58.1] The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin,
> changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of
> the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in
> numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a
> multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of
> numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I
> think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied.
>
>
Herodotus admittedly speculates "at least seems", basically he does
not know. He calls Pelasgi barbarian so if Hellas were a branch of
barbarians, they were barbarians them selfs joined by other
barbarians.
Likely, genetically Greeks were Pelasgi joined by other barbarian
races (Indo-Europeans?) they become Greeks.
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
Get an education you IMBECILE! The Babylonian and Sumerian religions were
exactly the same and based on the worship of same historical kings as was
the Assyrian religion. Maybe I should have said Mesopotamian so it would
register properly in your tiny feeble mind.
>
> Ned Latham
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
> Tlwch Agamemnon wrote:
>> Ned Latham wrote:
>> > Agamemnon wrote:
>> > > Ned Latham wrote:
>> > > > Agamemnon wrote:
>> > > > > Ned Latham wrote:
>> > > > > > Agamemnon wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > ----snip----
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > No religion existed in Greece before the Egyptians brought
>> > > > > > > the names of the gods to the inhabitants
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ...who were Pelasgians, which is to say, a pre-Greek people.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Nope.
>> > > >
>> > > > Yep.
>> > >
>> > > Nope. The Pelasgians were Greeks.
>> >
>> > Your own evidence below says otherwise.
>>
>> No it doesn't. You obviously have comprehensions problems.
>
> Quit prjecting, you idiot.
Stop stealing my lines you puny feeble minded imbecile.
>
>> > ----irrelevant twaddle snipped----
>> >
>> > > [1.57.1] What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any
>> > > certainty.
>> >
>> > So unlike you, Tlwch Agamemnon, Herodotos is not certain what it is.
>
> Try to get your pointy little had around this, bubblehead: Herodotos was
> quite familiar with Greek (if you try real hard, you might be able to work
> out why that's so), and he had heard Pelasgian speech. That he couldn't
> say what it was means that it *can't* have been Greek.
LEARN TO READ IN FULL DICKHEAD!
Herodotus had heard Pelsagian and he knew that Greek was directly descended
from it but not any of the languages of the people who lived next to the
Pelasgians. The only thing he did not know was where Pelasgian came from
because there was no one else apprat from the Hellenes who spoke anything
similar to it, not even the Italians and Tyrrhenians or Carians who were his
own people. Pelsagian was Arcado-Cypriot Mycenaean Greek. Get used to it.
>
>> > > If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue
>> > > spoken
>> > > by the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at
>> > > Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district
>> > > named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the
>> > > Dorians- or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the
>> > > Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some time with the
>> > > Athenians-
>> > > or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the
>> > > name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a
>> > > conjecture
>> > > from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a
>> > > barbarous
>> > > language.
>> >
>> > In other words, Tlwch Agamemnon, he concludes that it was not Greek.
>>
>> WRONG YOU
>
> You wrong me every time you describe me, you lying maggot.
Once again your puny mind is too small to comprehend anything your read.
>
>> DISSEMBLING LIAR!
>
> The .sig suit you. Now try to learn what will surely be the hard part for
> you: putting it at the *end* of your posts.
You are an imbecile.
>
>> Read the part again which you deliberately cut out.
>
> Of course I cut it deliberately, you idiot. Do you think that sort of
> thing happens by accident? I cut it out because it was superfulous.
You cut it because it totally demolishes your entire argument and you can't
live with that.
> But if you want me to rub your nose even deeper in your idiocy...
>
>> [Herodotus 1.58.1] The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin,
>> changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of
>> the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty
>> in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to
>> a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks
>> of numerous tribes of barbarians.
>
> So. The Hellenic race was a branch of the Pelasgic race. Tell us, Tlwch
> Agamemnon, how do you recocile that with the next sentence?
>
>> The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were,
>> as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied.
>
> Ooh, look: the Pelasgians were barbarians; ie, not Greeks.
IGNORANT PUNY IMBECILE!
Learn the meanings of the words Greek, Hellene and Barbarian you moron and
read Herodotus in full.
Herodotus was discussion the origin of the Hellenic race and that race he
considered to be a branch of the Pelasgic race. The term Greeks applies to
both Hellenes and Palasgains since it was coined by the Romans because the
Pelasgians were the first people from Greece that they met. The term
barbarian was used by Herodotus to refer to anybody who did not speak the
Hellenic dialect of Greek. There were other dialects of Greek and those
included Pelasgian.
>
>> > Suck it up, Aggie. The Pelasgians were not Greek.
>>
>> WRONG!
>
> You were ever thus.
>
>> The Hellenic language was a branch of Pelasgian, and the Pelasgians are
>> Greeks by definition.
>
> LOL. "... a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied".
A non-Hellenic race you IMBECILE, not a non-Greek race. The Pelasgians are
Greeks by definition since the Greeks were named after Graecus the son of
Thessalus the son of Haemon the son of Pelasgus. Graecus was contemporary
with Dorus, Aeolus and Xuthus the sons of Hellen after whom the Hellens were
named.
>
>> The Pelasgians spoke
>
> "... a barbarous language ...". See your own evidence above, you moron.
>
>
>> the Arcado-Cypriot Mycenaean dialect
>
> LOL. Your falsehoods get stupider and stupider. We know what language was
> spoken by the Pelasgians who lived on Lemnos before Miltiades evicted
> them,
> and that it's not Greek and not related to Greek.
WRONG! Where know what language the Pelasgians who lived in Palestine after
whom the land was named originally spoke and it was Greek. The people who
lived in Lemnos also included Carians and Thracians. Learn some history you
fool. Herodotus heard Pelasgian being spoken and he knew it was distinct for
Thracian and Italian and Tyrrhenian but that it shared so many similarities
with Hellenic that he knew that Hellenic was a dialect it.
>
> ----cretinous drivel and insane frothing at the mouth snipped----
So you snipped your own cretinous drivel then. Good.
>
> Ned Latham
Agamemnon
"Gog" <iispec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:06053981-4b9f-4e9d...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
Wrong.
The term barbarians was used to refer to people who did not speak the
Hellenic dialect of Greek.
The Pelasgians are Greeks by definition since the Greeks were named after
Graecus the son of Thessalus the son of Haemon the son of Pelasgus. Graecus
was contemporary
with Dorus, Aeolus and Xuthus the sons of Hellen after whom the Hellens were
named.
Herodotus had heard Pelsagian and he knew that Greek was directly descended
Gog
> "Gog" <iispeciali...@gmail.com> wrote in message
There is always some truth to legends and folklore.
>
> Herodotus had heard Pelsagian and he knew that Greek was directly descended
Not necessarily, by the time of Herodot, Pelasgian was a dead
language, Creek was spoken for over a thousand years. Likely, whoever
called themselfs Pelasgi were speakers of Indo-European dialect.
ADR
Aggie, I have never seen anybody like you who wants to defend his
ignorance so loudly and so proudly. Everything you have posted is
wrong, of course. I would not even bother to provide information to
the contrary. You have access to computers, you can find it out if
you wish. At least do not make a fool of yourself so obviously.
ADR
>
> Herodotus had heard Pelsagian and he knew that Greek was directly descended
> from it but not any of the languages of the people who lived next to the
> Pelasgians. The only thing he did not know was where Pelasgian came from
> because there was no one else apprat from the Hellenes who spoke anything
> similar to it, not even the Italians and Tyrrhenians or Carians who were his
> own people. Pelsagian was Arcado-Cypriot Mycenaean Greek. Get used to it.
This is so much fun, I do not want it to end!
Where did Herodotus hear Pelasgian??? (This would be good)
"Arcado-Cyprian Mycenean"? What is that? A new language division?
Why do you want to make such a fool of yourself is unexplainable, but
you do. You want to use Greek mythology as history, a patently
ridiculous idea. The Greeks themselves are laughing their hearts out
with these ridiculous assertions. Here is a guy who actually believes
all that when not even the ancient Greeks believed any of these tall
tales. Had they had any interest in the veracity of these cute
stories, then the mystery religions and rites would not have had any
currency.
I suggest that you take a tour of the Archaeological Museum and the
Museum of Cycladic Art at Athens and see all the pre-Greek exhibits
etc, etc. Greece contains many archaeological sites in which the pre-
Greek stratum is clearly recognizable from the Greek one and it is
apparent that it has been violently destroyed (Orchomenos is a good
example). As for the pre-Greek toponyms and words in Greek (including
Olympos), you would find the statement that they are pre-Greek even in
the publications of the Hellenic Academy. So, what now? Are you
going to declare even the Greek Academics as morons?
Now, a useful link for you:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/15919760/The-Pelasgian-PreGreek-Substrate-and-the-Linear-A
Agamemnon
More evidence of your ignorance. What I have said is a historical fact and
what is written in the history books and none of your made up revisionist
bullshit is going to change it.
Tiglath
> "Tiglath" <te...@tiglath.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1d3bf37a-7ffa-4dc3...@o9g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 18, 11:47 am, ADR <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 16, 6:19 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
> > Aggie, baby, why do you have to make yourself look like an idiot every
> > time??
>
> > > The Greek religion of worshiping the 12 Olympian gods existed since
> > > Mycenaean times as inscriptions have shown. Before the Olympians there
> > > was
> > > no religion. Read Herodotus histories book 2.51.1
>
> > And you believe that Herodotus knew well what was happening at 2000
> > BCE???
> > Of course there was a religion in Greece prior to the arrival of the
> > Greeks.
>
> <<<ADR is absolutely right on this one. For one the Minoan civilization
> had plenty of goddesses, and it was not confined to Crete for they
> were traders and their culture spread far and wide.>>>
>
> Absolute rubbish. Since nothing in Linear A can actually be read apart from
> a few names there is no way to identity anything as a goddess. You are
> making stuff up. The so-called Minoans didn't have a religion because their
> kings became the gods of the Greeks and Romans including Satur ie. Saturn.
>
Agaga is the kindest of contenders, as always. His claims are so
nutty that an infant's feeble fists would be more than sufficient to
knock them over.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_Goddess
> <<<It is in fact moronic to posit any primitive group of humans without a
> religion, when science was not at hand to tell them things like that>>>
>
> WRONG. It is in fact moronic to posit any primitive group of humans with a
> religion. Do cats worship gods, do dogs?
Agaga example for a primitive human group is 'cats.'
Thank you for the laughter.
Agamemnon
There were not legends or folklore. They were written history and
transcribed and corroborated from from primary sources. The Greek words
Mythologies and Istoria are synonymous.
>
> Herodotus had heard Pelsagian and he knew that Greek was directly
> descended
<<<Not necessarily, by the time of Herodot, Pelasgian was a dead
language, Creek was spoken for over a thousand years. Likely, whoever
called themselfs Pelasgi were speakers of Indo-European dialect.>>>
No. In Herodotus time Pelasgians was still spoken by the Pelasgians beside
Thrace and above the Tyrrhenians and everywhere else Pelasgians lived.
Herodotus heard the language because he visited these places and know that
it was common to all Pelasgians and that Greek was descended from it,
whereas it bore no relation to any other languages.
Pelasgian was a dialect of Ionic-Arcadian-Cyprian-Mycenaean since the
Pelasgians came from Arcadia, and also since Herodotus could recognise it
since he spoke the Ionic dialect and could read Homer. From that we can
deduce that it was closer to Mycenaean that Homeric Greek is if not
unadulterated Mycenaean.
Agamemnon
On Dec 21, 9:00 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
> Herodotus had heard Pelsagian and he knew that Greek was directly
> descended
> from it but not any of the languages of the people who lived next to the
> Pelasgians. The only thing he did not know was where Pelasgian came from
> because there was no one else apprat from the Hellenes who spoke anything
> similar to it, not even the Italians and Tyrrhenians or Carians who were
> his
> own people. Pelsagian was Arcado-Cypriot Mycenaean Greek. Get used to it.
<<<This is so much fun, I do not want it to end!
Where did Herodotus hear Pelasgian??? (This would be good)>>>
In the regions around Thrace and above the Tyrrhenians. Learn to read, or is
it that your memory is shorted than that of a goldfish?
<<<"Arcado-Cyprian Mycenean"? What is that? A new language division?>>>
An existing language division you clueless imbecile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic-Ionic
<<<Why do you want to make such a fool of yourself is unexplainable, but
you do. You want to use Greek mythology as history, a patently
ridiculous idea. The Greeks themselves are laughing their hearts out
with these ridiculous assertions. Here is a guy who actually believes>>>
They are laughing their hearts out with these ridiculous assertions by you
because what I have said is what Greek historians have written.
<<<all that when not even the ancient Greeks believed any of these tall
tales. Had they had any interest in the veracity of these cute>>>
WRONG! Firstly they were NEVER considered tall tales and secondly they were
considered to be history. You clearly have not even read the first couple of
paragraphs of Herodotus.
<<<stories, then the mystery religions and rites would not have had any
currency.>>>
More evidence of your total and utter cluelessness. Mystery religions your
clueless fool were so called because they were about the misdeeds or sins of
the gods and were so called from the Greek word Mysos meaning Unclean. There
was nothing whatsoever mysterious about them. They were kept secret because
people didn't want to talk about the gods committing the rape and murder of
their own sisters and brothers.
<<<I suggest that you take a tour of the Archaeological Museum and the
Museum of Cycladic Art at Athens and see all the pre-Greek exhibits
etc, etc. Greece contains many archaeological sites in which the pre-
Greek stratum is clearly recognizable from the Greek one and it is
apparent that it has been violently destroyed (Orchomenos is a good
example). As for the pre-Greek toponyms and words in Greek (including
Olympos), you would find the statement that they are pre-Greek even in
the publications of the Hellenic Academy. So, what now? Are you
going to declare even the Greek Academics as morons?>>>
I am going to declare that you are a clueless moron. The etymology of
Olympos is clearly indo-European as has already been shown to you and
everyone who can speak Greek already knows this. Oli Mpas = Where Everyone
Goes, Oli has the same root as All and Mpas has the same root as Via to go.
<<<Now, a useful link for you:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/15919760/The-Pelasgian-PreGreek-Substrate-and-the-Linear-A>>>
You are talking COMPLETE AND UTTER BOLLOCKS!
The Pelasgians did NOT EXIST before 1600 BC at the earliest so anything
before that time cannot possible in any way be called Pelasgian. Nor can it
be called pre-Greek since the Greeks were already in the Greek peninsular by
2200 BC and had reached Mycenae by 1600 BC and that is exactly when the
Pelasgians first appear in the historical record being Argive Greeks who
migrated to Arcadia and then moved to Thessaly in 1450 BC as well as
founding colonies in Italy at the same time.
The genealogy and pattern of migration is well known to all historians.
1606 Pelasgus (son of Niobe daughter of Phoroneus the founder of Argos)
1685 Aezeius
1560 Lycaon
1507 Pelasgus + Deianira (daughter of Lycaon)
1488 Lycaon II
1455 Calisto
1420 Arcas (founder of Arcadia)
1507 Pelasgus
1472 Haemon (king of Thessaly)
1430 Thessalus
1405 Graecus (after whom the Greeks were so called)
Agamemnon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_Goddess>>>
And you think a toy doll of Cretan prostitute dancing with snakes is a
goddess. YOU ARE TOTALLY CRAZY!
Tiglath
> <<<Agaga is the kindest of contenders, as always. His claims are so
> nutty that an infant's feeble fists would be more than sufficient to
> knock them over.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_Goddess>>>
>
> And you think a toy doll of Cretan prostitute dancing with snakes is a
> goddess. YOU ARE TOTALLY CRAZY!
So "prostitute" is what first occurs to you when viewing a topless
woman.
Never mind that "fertility" seems to be much preferred by the ancients
who had not yet developed the your kind of sickness.
The scholarly consensus is quite clear on the fact that there was a
Minoan religion with abounded with goddesses.
http://traumwerk.stanford.edu:3455/Archaeopaedia/148
Feel free to post EVIDENCE to the contrary, instead of your mindless
denials, for a change.
ADR
I guess that you are not keeping up with your education. Recent
excavations in Krete have not only revealed Minoan shrines but also
elements of human sacrifice. Both the bull and the snakes are
elements of fertility religions. In fact, the snake is incorporated
into the symbols of several Olympian Gods.
Your thinking is so muddled that I am beginning to question if you
have any connection with the real world or if you are in a lunatic
asylum with access to the Internet. What so difficult to accept in
all these propositions? As for the pre-Greeks, you have lots of
Linear A samples that have never been decoded because of lack of
connection with known languages. And these Linear A samples occupy
levels in periods between 2200 BCE to 1550 BCE,
There were lots of pre-Greeks in Greece and they did have a religion.
Since you live in the Greek myths, then the myth of Theseus in Megara
should be familiar to you.
Agamemnon
On Dec 21, 4:07 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> <<<Agaga is the kindest of contenders, as always. His claims are so
> nutty that an infant's feeble fists would be more than sufficient to
> knock them over.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_Goddess>>>
>
> And you think a toy doll of Cretan prostitute dancing with snakes is a
> goddess. YOU ARE TOTALLY CRAZY!
<<<So "prostitute" is what first occurs to you when viewing a topless
woman.>>>
<<<Never mind that "fertility" seems to be much preferred by the ancients
who had not yet developed the your kind of sickness.>>>
You are CRAZY! What they preferred was getting cheep sex.
<<<The scholarly consensus is quite clear on the fact that there was a
Minoan religion with abounded with goddesses.>>>
They revisionist consensus but not the scholarly one.
<<<http://traumwerk.stanford.edu:3455/Archaeopaedia/148
Feel free to post EVIDENCE to the contrary, instead of your mindless
denials, for a change.>>>
All ancient historians state that the gods were nothing more than defied
kings and since the gods of the ancient Greeks were the kings of the Minoan
era as is clear from all historical texts and chronologies it is also clear
that there was no religion before them. When know when the names of the gods
came to Greece and that was in around 1474 BC brought by the Egyptians and
before that the kings were simply regarded as kings and paid funery honours
and nothing more.
We have the names of the entire pantheon of Greek gods and none of them was
or was represented as a snake carrying dancing prostitute.
Gog
> "Gog" <iispeciali...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2549b015-122b-4101...@15g2000prz.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 21, 9:04 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Gog" <iispeciali...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > >
.
>
> <<<There is always some truth to legends and folklore.>>>
>
> There were not legends or folklore. They were written history and
> transcribed and corroborated from from primary sources.
You mean legends about gods? Herodotus writes about prehistory, he was
not an eyewitness, I am sure you know that. Genealogy of gods spans
for hundreds of years, who or what is the primary source, who was the
corroborator? Most definitely gods were not followed by an eyewitness
who wrote about their deeds, how absurd to suppose that.
>The Greek words
> Mythologies and Istoria are synonymous.
>
So what? these are just words.
Agamemnon
On Dec 21, 12:16 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> "Gog" <iispeciali...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2549b015-122b-4101...@15g2000prz.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 21, 9:04 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Gog" <iispeciali...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > >
.
>
> <<<There is always some truth to legends and folklore.>>>
>
> There were not legends or folklore. They were written history and
> transcribed and corroborated from from primary sources.
<<<You mean legends about gods? Herodotus writes about prehistory, he was>>>
They were not legends. The gods were known to be historical kings and
nothing more than that. Their locations of their graves were known and
became places of pilgrimage.
<<<not an eyewitness, I am sure you know that. Genealogy of gods spans>>>
Herodotus was a primary source since he had eyewitness accounts to go by or
was an eye witness himself and copied directly from primary sources
including civic records or the work of his predecessors which was regarded
as the historical consensus and had full provenance all they way back to
primary sources.
<<<for hundreds of years, who or what is the primary source, who was the
corroborator? Most definitely gods were not followed by an eyewitness
who wrote about their deeds, how absurd to suppose that.>>>
WRONG! The history of the gods was written in the time in which they lived
by the palace chronographers and historians and other clerics who wrote day
to day records of all the events that took place and was also based on
primary sources including official dispatches, recognisance reports carried
out in regard to battles and defence and logistics documents, the latter of
which are still extant today in Linear B and Linear A (but mostly illegible
in Linear A).
The height of power of the gods was during the Hyksos period before the
Thera Eruption between 1700 and 1628 BC. We have the names of gods including
Saturn, Zeus, Sarapis and the Phoenician and Jewish god Jehovah extant in
Egyptian and Linear A inscriptions as kings from that period, Satur, Sheshi
(Saasitepis/Ausstaeb/Istaveon), Saapis (Apophis/Awoserre Apepi), Meruserenre
Yakubher, as well as the names of other Greek kings who ruled over Egypt
including Epaphus - Apachnas/Seneferankhre Apepi, Agenor - Aqenienre Apepi,
Aegyptus - Djehutymes/Tutmoses III, Cassiopeia - Kasiyope/Ankhesenpaaten and
Proteus - Ktes/Setnakte.
We also have Phoenician documents which corroborate the existence of same
gods and their origins as Hyksos period kings including Philo, Sanchuniathon
and the Ras Sharma Tablets.
>The Greek words
> Mythologies and Istoria are synonymous.
Mythologia I mean.
>
<<<So what? these are just words.>>>
They were synonymous in Greek and that is what matters.
Agamemnon
More of your fantastic crazy delusions.
What excavations have revealed as sites where people were executed or
murdered either as prisoners or political opponents to the rules as well as
shrines dedicated to the rulers of Crete which were used in the same was as
Roman shrines dedicated to Julius Caesar and Augustus or any other emperor.
<<<Your thinking is so muddled that I am beginning to question if you
have any connection with the real world or if you are in a lunatic
asylum with access to the Internet. What so difficult to accept in
all these propositions? As for the pre-Greeks, you have lots of>>>
They are TOTALLY CRAZY AND IRRATIONAL. Next you'll be telling us that ghosts
exist and that you have your own personal spirit guide.
<<<Linear A samples that have never been decoded because of lack of
connection with known languages.>>>
WRONG! The majority of the body of Linear A was decoded using computer
statistical analysis as being a dialect of Aeolic Greek and another sample
was decoded as being proto-Ionic Greek.
<<< And these Linear A samples occupy
levels in periods between 2200 BCE to 1550 BCE,>>>
The period of the arrival of the first Greeks to the Greek peninsula, the
Greek gods and the first Greek city states in the Peloponnesus.
Put 2 and 2 together you stupid fool. Linear A is invented and the Cretan
and Trojan stone palaces only start being built AFTER THE GREEKS HAD ARRIVED
IN GREECE and not before. The Greeks WERE the so-called Minoans (who aren't
even named correctly since Minos I did not reign until 1406 BC which is
during the Mycenaean period). They easily conquered the existing population
of solitary farmers and small villages and were the most likely cause of the
First Intermediate Period in Egyptian history which 2181-2055 BC which
coincides with the first wave of their arrival. Later in 1900 BC a second
wave arrived in northern Greece pushing the first wave further south and
east and the stone palaces at Troy and in Crete start to appear and Linear A
is developed. This coincided with the time that the kings who would later
become the Orphic gods, so named after Orpheus (1260 BC) who was the first
to worship them, Hydros, Khronos, Aither, Phanes, Nyx and her son
Uranus/Ophion.
Uranus lived at that time as the Hurrian god Anu and the Hindu Varuna. They
were all the same entity. Why do you think the Hurrians where so called? It
was after Uranus, ie. Hourrianos who conquered them at the start of the
Hyksos period and built an empire spanning from Italy to India including
Babylon, Egypt and Phoenicia. Look at that archaeology. Other than
Assyro-Babylonia and Egypt then only powerful civilisation that existed in
the Hyksos period that build anything in stone on a similar scale was that
of the Cretan Greeks, and the Mittani who followed the Hurrians but spoke an
indo-European language preserved the name of the Greco-Roman god Saturn
(also preserved in Linear A) in the names of their kings and also named the
Hindu gods in their inscriptions since they were their own ancestors. F E
Pargiter's dating of the first Hindu kings placed the Hindu gods at the same
time Greek and Phoenician and Hurrian chronology places their own gods and
this is the period of the Hyksos.
<<<There were lots of pre-Greeks in Greece and they did have a religion.>>>
WRONG!
Latham >ned@woden.valhalla.oz >
----snip----
> The term barbarians was used to refer to people who did not speak the
> Hellenic dialect of Greek.
Wrong. The term barbarian was used to refer to people who did not speak Greek.
----snip----
> The Pelasgians are Greeks by definition
Wrong. The Pelasgians were non-Greek by definition.
----snip----
Ned Latham
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> >
> > ----snip----
> >
> > > Religion was invented by the ancient Babylonians and Egyptians who had
> > > writing before anyone else
> >
> > Wrong. Get your head out of your arse. The Sumerians had writing before
> > them.
No response to that, blubberbrain?
> > They had religion too, you blundering boob.
>
> Get an education
The type you had isn't suitable for sane people, so if that's all you can
offer, no.
> you IMBECILE!
Quit projecting.
> The Babylonian and Sumerian religions were
> exactly the same
Wrong.
> and based on the worship of same historical kings as was
> the Assyrian religion.
Wrong.
> Maybe I should have said Mesopotamian so it would
> register properly in your tiny feeble mind.
It wouldn't have concealed your stupidity or your delusions.
Ned Latham
Agamemnon
<Ned Latham >n...@woden.valhalla.oz>> wrote in message
> Tlwch Agamemnon wrote:
>
> ----snip----
>
>> The term barbarians was used to refer to people who did not speak the
>> Hellenic dialect of Greek.
>
> Wrong. The term barbarian was used to refer to people who did not speak
> Greek.
WRONG!
The term barbarian was used by Herodotus to refer to people who did not
speak the Hellenic dialect of Greek. It was also used by the Athenians to
refer to those who did not speak the Attic dialect of Greek including the
Spartans and Macedonians who as we know were both Greek tribes who spoke the
Doric dialect. So it is clear that you don't have the remotest clue of what
you are talking about.
>
> ----snip----
>
>> The Pelasgians are Greeks by definition
>
> Wrong. The Pelasgians were non-Greek by definition.
WRONG!
Gaercus was the son of Thessalus the son of Haemon the son of Pelasgians.
The term Greeks come from the great grandson of Pelsagus. The Pelasgains are
therefore Greeks by definition.
>
> ----snip----
>
> Ned Latham
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
> Tlwch Agamemnon wrote:
>
> The type you had isn't suitable for sane people, so if that's all you can
> offer, no.
>
>> you IMBECILE!
>
> Quit projecting.
Quit stealing my lines and stop projecting.
>
>> The Babylonian and Sumerian religions were
>> exactly the same
>
> Wrong.
WRONG!
>
>> and based on the worship of same historical kings as was
>> the Assyrian religion.
>
> Wrong.
WRONG!
>
>> Maybe I should have said Mesopotamian so it would
>> register properly in your tiny feeble mind.
>
> It wouldn't have concealed your stupidity or your delusions.
Obviously nothing registers properly in your tiny feeble mind since
everything you have said is totally WRONG and historically BASELESS!
>
> Ned Latham
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> > Tlwch Agamemnon wrote:
> > > Ned Latham wrote:
> > > > Agamemnon wrote:
> > > > > Ned Latham wrote:
----snip----
> > > > > Nope. The Pelasgians were Greeks.
> > > >
> > > > Your own evidence below says otherwise.
> > >
> > > No it doesn't. You obviously have comprehensions problems.
> >
> > Quit prjecting, you idiot.
>
> Stop stealing my lines you puny feeble minded imbecile.
Quit prjecting, you idiot.
> > > > ----irrelevant twaddle snipped----
> > > >
> > > > > [1.57.1] What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any
> > > > > certainty.
> > > >
> > > > So unlike you, Tlwch Agamemnon, Herodotos is not certain what it is.
> >
> > Try to get your pointy little had around this, bubblehead: Herodotos was
> > quite familiar with Greek (if you try real hard, you might be able to work
> > out why that's so), and he had heard Pelasgian speech. That he couldn't
> > say what it was means that it *can't* have been Greek.
>
> LEARN TO READ
I did. Several times (see if you can work that out, bubblebrain).
> IN FULL DICKHEAD!
Not one of my languages. I'll leave that one to you.
----repeated delusional drivel snipped----
> > > > In other words, Tlwch Agamemnon, he concludes that it was not Greek.
> > >
> > > WRONG YOU
> >
> > You wrong me every time you describe me, you lying maggot.
>
> Once again your puny mind is too small to comprehend anything your read.
"Once again"? LOL. You think it changes size now and then?
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> > > DISSEMBLING LIAR!
> >
> > The .sig suits you. Now try to learn what will surely be the hard part
> > for you: putting it at the *end* of your posts.
>
> You are an imbecile.
Quit prjecting, you idiot.
> > > Read the part again which you deliberately cut out.
> >
> > Of course I cut it deliberately, you idiot. Do you think that sort of
> > thing happens by accident? I cut it out because it was superfulous.
>
> You cut it because it totally demolishes your entire argument and you can't
> live with that.
LOL. It's about time you took your meds, Aggie.
----snip----
> > > The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were,
> > > as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied.
> >
> > Ooh, look: the Pelasgians were barbarians; ie, not Greeks.
>
> IGNORANT PUNY IMBECILE!
There's another .sig that suits you. But when are you going to learn where
to place them, slow boy?
> Learn the meanings of the words Greek, Hellene and Barbarian
Practise what you preach, moron.
----more delusional drivel snipped----
> > > The Hellenic language was a branch of Pelasgian, and the Pelasgians are
> > > Greeks by definition.
> >
> > LOL. "... a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied".
>
> A non-Hellenic race you IMBECILE, not a non-Greek race.
By Classical times, you imbecilic lunatic, that was the same thing.
> The Pelasgians are
> Greeks by definition
Wrong. They were (not "are", you blithering idiot) non-Greek by definition.
----more delusional drivel snipped----
> > > The Pelasgians spoke
> >
> > "... a barbarous language ...". See your own evidence above, you moron.
> >
> >
> > > the Arcado-Cypriot Mycenaean dialect
> >
> > LOL. Your falsehoods get stupider and stupider. We know what language was
> > spoken by the Pelasgians who lived on Lemnos before Miltiades evicted
> > them, and that it's not Greek and not related to Greek.
>
> WRONG!
Nope.
> Where know what language the Pelasgians who lived in Palestine after
> whom the land was named originally spoke and it was Greek.
I said Lemnos, you idiot. Palestine is irrelevant. The Athenians too were
Pelasgians who spoke Greek -- after they joined the Greek community. But
that too is irrelevant to the point at hand. The language of the Pelasgians
of Lemnos was not Greek.
> The people who
> lived in Lemnos also included Carians and Thracians.
They weren't the Pelasgians evicted by Miltiades, imbecile.
----more fantasy from Tlwch snipped----
> > ----cretinous drivel and insane frothing at the mouth snipped----
>
> So you snipped your own cretinous drivel then. Good.
Ha! You wish.
Ned Latham
Ned Latham
----snip----
> Not necessarily, by the time of Herodot, Pelasgian was a dead
> language,
Not true. The descendants of the Pelasgians Miltiades evicted from
Lemnos were still speaking it when Thukydides encountered them during
the Peloponnesian War.
----snip----
Ned Latham
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> >
> > ----snip----
> >
> > > The term barbarians was used to refer to people who did not speak the
> > > Hellenic dialect of Greek.
> >
> > Wrong. The term barbarian was used to refer to people who did not speak
> > Greek.
>
> WRONG!
You were ever thus.
----snip----
> > > The Pelasgians are Greeks by definition
> >
> > Wrong. The Pelasgians were non-Greek by definition.
>
> WRONG!
You were ever thus.
----snip----
Ned Latham
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> > Tlwch Agamemnon wrote:
----snip----
> > > Get an education
> >
> > The type you had isn't suitable for sane people, so if that's all you can
> > offer, no.
> >
> > > you IMBECILE!
> >
> > Quit projecting.
>
> Quit stealing my lines and stop projecting.
Quit projecting, you idiot.
> > > The Babylonian and Sumerian religions were
> > > exactly the same
> >
> > Wrong.
>
> WRONG!
You were ever thus.
> > > and based on the worship of same historical kings as was
> > > the Assyrian religion.
> >
> > Wrong.
>
> WRONG!
You were ever thus.
> > > Maybe I should have said Mesopotamian so it would
> > > register properly in your tiny feeble mind.
> >
> > It wouldn't have concealed your stupidity or your delusions.
>
> Obviously nothing registers properly in your tiny feeble mind since
> everything you have said is totally WRONG and historically BASELESS!
Quit projecting, you idiot.
Ned Latham
Tiglath
Faulty logic. Even if the Greek gods had sprung from Minoan kings,
that in no way precludes the Minoans from having their own gods.
You are SO boring Agaga. The same pathetic non-arguments you used to
support the historicity of Romulus, you recycle to support any stupid
claim, like the current one that the Minoans had no religion. Your
arguments are not only completely wrong but also lacking in
entertainment value, repetitive shit from a shithead.
Where are your references from ANY historian saying the Minoans had no
religion. Where? Put up evidence or shut the fuck up, moron.
Agamemnon
Yes it does since if they worshiped other gods they would have been their
previous kings and those kings would have formed part of the Greek religion,
thus before the Greek religion there was nothing. Before there was writing
there were no names of kings therefore there could be no religion.
> Where are your references from ANY historian saying the Minoans had no
> religion. Where? Put up evidence or shut the fuck up, moron.
You don't have a single reference to the Minoans having a religion because
there are none. The default position is that they didn't have one other than
the Greek religion since that is the only religion there is any record of
even in Mycenaean times, and that religion did not exist until the Egyptians
came to Greece with it.
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
You are the one projecting, and stealing my lines too. IMBECILE!
>
> Ned Latham
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
> Tlwch Agamemnon wrote:
>> Ned Latham wrote:
>> > Tlwch Agamemnon wrote:
>> > > Ned Latham wrote:
>> > > > Agamemnon wrote:
>> > > > > Ned Latham wrote:
>
>> > > The Pelasgians spoke
>> >
>> > "... a barbarous language ...". See your own evidence above, you moron.
>> >
>> >
>> > > the Arcado-Cypriot Mycenaean dialect
>> >
>> > LOL. Your falsehoods get stupider and stupider. We know what language
>> > was
>> > spoken by the Pelasgians who lived on Lemnos before Miltiades evicted
>> > them, and that it's not Greek and not related to Greek.
>>
>> WRONG!
>
> Nope.
WRONG! Ignorant clueless fool. We know from Herodotus that the Pelasgians
spoke Greek since the Greek he spoke was descended from Pelasgian by his own
admission.
>
>> Where know what language the Pelasgians who lived in Palestine after
>> whom the land was named originally spoke and it was Greek.
>
> I said Lemnos, you idiot. Palestine is irrelevant. The Athenians too were
> Pelasgians who spoke Greek -- after they joined the Greek community. But
> that too is irrelevant to the point at hand. The language of the
> Pelasgians
> of Lemnos was not Greek.
WRONG! It was Greek and Herodotus and Thucydides heard it and knew it was
Greek. There is no evidence to the contrary. The Pelasgians are Greek by
definition. Graecus was the great-grandson of Pelasgus.
>
>> The people who
>> lived in Lemnos also included Carians and Thracians.
>
> They weren't the Pelasgians evicted by Miltiades, imbecile.
Who ever said they were. The Pelasgians evicted by Miltiades spoke GREEK you
imbecile.
>
> ----more fantasy from Tlwch snipped----
>
>> > ----cretinous drivel and insane frothing at the mouth snipped----
>>
>> So you snipped your own cretinous drivel then. Good.
>
> Ha! You wish.
You did.
>
> Ned Latham
Tiglath
>
> > Faulty logic. Even if the Greek gods had sprung from Minoan kings,
> > that in no way precludes the Minoans from having their own gods.
>
> Yes it does since if they worshiped other gods they would have been their
> previous kings and those kings would have formed part of the Greek religion,
> thus before the Greek religion there was nothing. Before there was writing
> there were no names of kings therefore there could be no religion.
>
Faulty logic. Just because the Greeks derived thier gods from kings,
allegedly, it does not mean that the Minoans also ought to have.
> > Where are your references from ANY historian saying the Minoans had no
> > religion. Where? Put up evidence or shut the fuck up, moron.
>
> You don't have a single reference to the Minoans having a religion because
> there are none.
On the contrary there are plenty. I gave you two already. But you
simply deny that exist. Stupidly, thinking that by dismissing them
they will disappear.
Britormartis is a Minoan goddess of the mountains and hunting, which
made it into Greek mythology. She appears in Minoan seals and coins
as a goddess.
A goddess implies religion. You lose.
> The default position is that they didn't have one other than
> the Greek religion
Minoans could not have a Greek religion, as the Greeks came AFTER the
Minoans, you stupid moron.
Agamemnon
> On Dec 22, 2:32 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> > Faulty logic. Even if the Greek gods had sprung from Minoan kings,
>> > that in no way precludes the Minoans from having their own gods.
>>
>> Yes it does since if they worshiped other gods they would have been their
>> previous kings and those kings would have formed part of the Greek
>> religion,
>> thus before the Greek religion there was nothing. Before there was
>> writing
>> there were no names of kings therefore there could be no religion.
>>
>
> Faulty logic. Just because the Greeks derived thier gods from kings,
> allegedly, it does not mean that the Minoans also ought to have.
Yes it does because that's what EVERYONE did without exception.
>
>
>
>
>> > Where are your references from ANY historian saying the Minoans had no
>> > religion. Where? Put up evidence or shut the fuck up, moron.
>>
>> You don't have a single reference to the Minoans having a religion
>> because
>> there are none.
>
> On the contrary there are plenty. I gave you two already. But you
> simply deny that exist. Stupidly, thinking that by dismissing them
> they will disappear.
Ha, ha, ha. A pornographic dolly and what?
You provided no evidence whatsoever.
>
> Britormartis is a Minoan goddess of the mountains and hunting, which
> made it into Greek mythology. She appears in Minoan seals and coins
> as a goddess.
WHAT A LOAD OF COMPLETE AND UTTER BOLLCOCKS!
Britormartis was the daughter Karme the daughter of Euboulos the son of
Karmanor (who lived at the time of Tityas or 1352 BC according to Jerome)
and was contemporary to Philammon who first set up the choral dance at
Delphi in 1282 BC (Jerome) and thus lived during the reign of Minos II,
therefore there is NOTHING WHATSOEVER "Minoan" (which is a misnomer) about
her. She's complexly Mycenaean.
"The Kretans say that Karmanor, who purified Apollon after he killed Pytho,
was the father of Euboulos, and that the daughter of Zeus and of Karme, the
daughter of Euboulos, was Britomartis." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 2.30.3
[Apollodorus 1.4.1] Now Artemis devoted herself to the chase and remained a
maid; but Apollo learned the art of prophecy from Pan, the son of Zeus and
Hybris, and came to Delphi, where Themis at that time used to deliver
oracles; and when the snake Python, which guarded the oracle, would have
hindered him from approaching the chasm, he killed it and took over the
oracle. Not long afterwards he slew also Tityus, who was a son of Zeus and
Elare, daughter of Orchomenus; for her, after he had debauched her, Zeus hid
under the earth for fear of Hera, and brought forth to the light the son
Tityus, of monstrous size, whom she had borne in her womb. When Leto came to
Pytho, Tityus beheld her, and overpowered by lust drew her to him. But she
called her children to her aid, and they shot him down with their arrows.
And he is punished even after death; for vultures eat his heart in Hades.
"The most ancient contest the Delphic people remember and the one where a
prize was first offered was for singing a hymn to the god. Khrysothemis of
Krete, whose father Karmanor is said to have purified Apollon, sang and won
a victory. After Khrysothemis they record that Philammon won a singing
victory." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 10.7.2
>
> A goddess implies religion. You lose.
She isn't a goddess.
>
>> The default position is that they didn't have one other than
>> the Greek religion
>
> Minoans could not have a Greek religion, as the Greeks came AFTER the
> Minoans, you stupid moron.
The Minoans were Greeks you stupid ignorant imbecile.
You have been exposed and humiliated for your total, complete and utter
fabrications and lack of any knowledge of genuine history. I suggest you
shut up from now own before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.
Britormartis a Minoan goddess of mountains? You are out of your crazy raving
little mind.
ADR
> > Minoans could not have a Greek religion, as the Greeks came AFTER the
> > Minoans, you stupid moron.
>
> The Minoans were Greeks you stupid ignorant imbecile.
>
> You have been exposed and humiliated for your total, complete and utter
> fabrications and lack of any knowledge of genuine history. I suggest you
> shut up from now own before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.
> Britormartis a Minoan goddess of mountains? You are out of your crazy raving
> little mind.
Your delusions are incredible. Not even the ancient Greeks believed
that the Eteocretans (the original inhabitants) were Greek. But, in
any case, if the Minoans were Greek, then you can translate for us the
Eteocretan inscriptions found in the island of Krete, would you? They
are written with the typical Greek alphabet but nobody so far has
provided a translation. I am sure you can do it. Give it a try!!
Tiglath
>
> > On the contrary there are plenty. I gave you two already. But you
> > simply deny that exist. Stupidly, thinking that by dismissing them
> > they will disappear.
>
> Ha, ha, ha. A pornographic dolly and what?
>
Agaga's projects his own views of females on the ancients' fertility
symbols.
What a moron.
According to this moron, the human predisposition and need for
religious experience, which evolved with our consciousness, came into
existence suddenly with the advent of the Greeks, who of course
invented everything, including horsefeathers.
Before the Greeks no on had a religion according to this moron. The
Sumerian gods did not exist, or the Babylonian or Assyrian, nothing,
zilch, until the Greeks.
Thank you for making it so easy to laugh at you.
Italo
"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> schreef:
> Britormartis was the daughter Karme the daughter of Euboulos the son
> of Karmanor (who lived at the time of Tityas or 1352 BC according to
> Jerome) and was contemporary to Philammon who first set up the choral
> dance at Delphi in 1282 BC (Jerome) and thus lived during the reign
> of Minos II, therefore there is NOTHING WHATSOEVER "Minoan" (which is
> a misnomer) about her. She's complexly Mycenaean.
>
> "The Kretans say that Karmanor, who purified Apollon after he killed
> Pytho, was the father of Euboulos, and that the daughter of Zeus and
> of Karme, the daughter of Euboulos, was Britomartis." - Pausanias,
> Guide to Greece 2.30.3
>
> [Apollodorus 1.4.1] Now Artemis devoted herself to the chase and
> remained a maid; but Apollo learned the art of prophecy from Pan, the
> son of Zeus and Hybris, and came to Delphi, where Themis at that time
> used to deliver oracles; and when the snake Python, which guarded the
> oracle, would have hindered him from approaching the chasm, he killed
> it and took over the oracle. Not long afterwards he slew also Tityus,
> who was a son of Zeus and Elare, daughter of Orchomenus; for her,
> after he had debauched her, Zeus hid under the earth for fear of
> Hera, and brought forth to the light the son Tityus, of monstrous
> size, whom she had borne in her womb. When Leto came to Pytho, Tityus
> beheld her, and overpowered by lust drew her to him. But she called
> her children to her aid, and they shot him down with their arrows.
> And he is punished even after death; for vultures eat his heart in
> Hades.
'Tityos' may belong with a pre-greek title tit-, as in titênê
('queen'), Tydo (queen of Lydia) etc.
Compare also Tutaias (the Neo-Hittite god), Titiuatti (Hattic goddess).
At Rome perhaps the same title in 'Titoi Mercui' (Mercurius) 'Titus
Tatius', 'Mutinus Titinus/Tutunus' (founder of Cures), from Etruscan
perhaps.
'Carian' was spoken by oracle of Apollo Ptoon in Boeotia.
> "The most ancient contest the Delphic people remember and the one
> where a prize was first offered was for singing a hymn to the god.
> Khrysothemis of Krete, whose father Karmanor is said to have purified
> Apollon, sang and won a victory.
Pausanias also mentions that Delphi's old name Pteras (hence the story
of the winged shrine) was associated with the town Aptara on Crete.
The name of nearby mt.Catopterius may have meant 'above Pteras' rather
as 'the look-out'.
Other links to Crete in the general area; e.g. the Curetes of Aetolia
and the town Phaistos south of Delphi.
> After Khrysothemis they record that
> Philammon won a singing victory." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 10.7.2
--
boycott american products!
Agamemnon
What a moron.
More projections of your own clueless delusions and fantasies.
ALL ANCIENT HISTORIANS clearly state that the gods were nothing more than
deified ancestral kings that a mythology was built around by the poets.
Before writing there were no gods whatsoever since no memory can be passed
down beyond living memory without it. Before writing was invented and
ancestral kings were made into gods nobody believed in anything except the
forces of nature, and in that case they were regarded as nothing more than
the physical forces that they are known to be today and markers of time, the
weather and the harvest. Nobody is born with any urge whatsoever to worship
any kind of god. Religion is something that is brainwashed into you. Animals
don't worship gods and neither did pre-historical humans. The gods of the
Babylonians and Assyrians were the kings of the Sumerians. The gods of the
Egyptians were their predynastic rulers. The gods of the Phoenicians were
their past kings and those of the Jews, Hurrians, Greeks, Romans and Hindus
and even the Vikings were the same entities as the Phoenician gods of the
Hyksos period who were Minoan kings who ruled over Palestine, Egypt, Crete
and Troy. That is what the historical consensus is and always has been.
Agamemnon
On Dec 22, 4:55 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> > Minoans could not have a Greek religion, as the Greeks came AFTER the
> > Minoans, you stupid moron.
>
> The Minoans were Greeks you stupid ignorant imbecile.
>
> You have been exposed and humiliated for your total, complete and utter
> fabrications and lack of any knowledge of genuine history. I suggest you
> shut up from now own before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.
> Britormartis a Minoan goddess of mountains? You are out of your crazy
> raving
> little mind.
<<<Your delusions are incredible. Not even the ancient Greeks believed
that the Eteocretans (the original inhabitants) were Greek. But, in>>>
WRONG! You don't have the remotest clue of the meaning of the words Greek
and Hellenic. The Eteocretans were only regarded as not being Hellenes. That
does not mean that they were not regarded as Greeks. The Hellenes were
Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans and Ionians, and named after Hellene the son of
Deukalion, the father of Dorus, Aeolus and Xuthus and the word was not
coined as a collective term until the first Olympiad. The term Greeks was
coined by the Romans to refer to ALL the inhabitants of Greece since the
first people from Greece they came into contact with were Pelasgians from
Thessaly who were descended from Graecus the great grandson of Pelasgus. Get
an education you ignorant fool and start reading historical texts using the
definition of the ancients not your own totally clueless modern inventions
of what you mistakenly think the terms mean.
<<<any case, if the Minoans were Greek, then you can translate for us the
Eteocretan inscriptions found in the island of Krete, would you? They>>>
How do you know there are written in Eteocretan, a language which no record
of exists?
<<<are written with the typical Greek alphabet but nobody so far has
provided a translation. I am sure you can do it. Give it a try!!>>>
Clueless fool. Crete was inhabited by Carians, Leleges and Phoenicians all
of whom used the Cadmian alphabet and if 90% of the text is corrupted as is
normal then it would be impossible to read even if it was written in
English.
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> > Tlwch Agamemnon wrote:
----snip----
> > > Obviously nothing registers properly in your tiny feeble mind since
> > > everything you have said is totally WRONG and historically BASELESS!
> >
> > Quit projecting, you idiot.
>
> You are the one projecting, and stealing my lines too. IMBECILE!
Quit projecting, you idiot.
Ned Latham
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> > Tlwch Agamemnon wrote:
> > > Ned Latham wrote:
----snip----
> > > > > The Pelasgians spoke
> > > >
> > > > "... a barbarous language ...". See your own evidence above,
> > > > you moron.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > the Arcado-Cypriot Mycenaean dialect
> > > >
> > > > LOL. Your falsehoods get stupider and stupider. We know what
> > > > language was spoken by the Pelasgians who lived on Lemnos
> > > > before Miltiades evicted them, and that it's not Greek and
> > > > not related to Greek.
> > >
> > > WRONG!
> >
> > Nope.
>
> WRONG! Ignorant clueless fool. We know from Herodotus that the Pelasgians
> spoke Greek since the Greek he spoke was descended from Pelasgian by his
> own admission.
You're wrong again, fool.
> > > Where know what language the Pelasgians who lived in Palestine
> > > after whom the land was named originally spoke and it was Greek.
> >
> > I said Lemnos, you idiot. Palestine is irrelevant. The Athenians
> > too were Pelasgians who spoke Greek -- after they joined the Greek
> > community. But that too is irrelevant to the point at hand. The
> > language of the Pelasgians of Lemnos was not Greek.
>
> WRONG! It was Greek and Herodotus and Thucydides heard it and knew it was
> Greek.
You're wrong again, fool.
> There is no evidence to the contrary.
You're wrong again, fool.
> The Pelasgians are Greek by
> definition.
You're wrong again, fool.
> Graecus was the great-grandson of Pelasgus.
Irrelevant.
> > > The people who > lived in Lemnos also included Carians and Thracians.
> >
> > They weren't the Pelasgians evicted by Miltiades, imbecile.
>
> Who ever said they were.
You implied it, moron.
> The Pelasgians evicted by Miltiades spoke GREEK you imbecile.
You're wrong again, fool.
> > > > ----cretinous drivel and insane frothing at the mouth snipped----
> > >
> > > So you snipped your own cretinous drivel then. Good.
> >
> > Ha! You wish.
>
> You did.
You're wrong again, fool. Try to think: Why the fuck would *I* make such
a silly wish?
You drivelling idiot.
Ned Latham
ADR
> <<<any case, if the Minoans were Greek, then you can translate for us the
> Eteocretan inscriptions found in the island of Krete, would you? They>>>
>
> How do you know there are written in Eteocretan, a language which no record
> of exists?
Well, apparently there are a number of inscriptions in that language
utilizing the Greek alphabet. Three of them were found at Phaistos.
You can check with the local museum and archaeological records.
> <<<are written with the typical Greek alphabet but nobody so far has
> provided a translation. I am sure you can do it. Give it a try!!>>>
>
> Clueless fool.
He, he...
> Crete was inhabited by Carians, Leleges and Phoenicians all
> of whom used the Cadmian alphabet and if 90% of the text is corrupted as is
> normal then it would be impossible to read even if it was written in
> English.
Now, we have a historical record of the presence of the Eteokretans
and the fact that they did not speak Greek. You claim that other
ethnic groups also settled there. On the other hand, you want to
insist that the Minoans were Greek. I think that you have your
knickers in a twist and you do not know where to turn next. In any
case, point us to any credible source with a translation of Linear A
tablets (the ones you claim are indeed Greek). Anything???
Tiglath
> Before writing there were no gods whatsoever since no memory can be passed
> down beyond living memory without it. Before writing was invented and
> ancestral kings were made into gods nobody believed in anything except the
> forces of nature, and in that case they were regarded as nothing more than
> the physical forces that they are known to be today and markers of time, the
> weather and the harvest.
Such a beautiful self-defeating argument, Agaga put together for our
delight...
He tells us about the beliefs men had before the time they could pass
down anything in their memory.
How the fuck can he know?
You may have survived mad cow disease, Agaga, but it ate most of your
brain.
> Nobody is born with any urge whatsoever to worship
> any kind of god. Religion is something that is brainwashed into you. Animals
> don't worship gods and neither did pre-historical humans.
Really? Get out from under your cosy blanket of ignorance and meet,
right in your backyard, gods from before people had any writing
system, as inscriptions attest: the main British pagan gods Etharun,
the stag-horned god, Cernunnos, the bull-horned or ram-horned God of
War, and Sulis the healing god, and different mother goddesses
concerned with the earth, fertility, sexual pleasures.
> The gods of the
> Babylonians and Assyrians were the kings of the Sumerians.
Who were the gods of the Sumerians?
Gog
>
> news:1366e70d-af4a-4630...@g4g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 22, 4:55 pm, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>
> > > Minoans could not have a Greek religion, as the Greeks came AFTER the
> > > Minoans, you stupid moron.
>
> > The Minoans were Greeks you stupid ignorant imbecile.
>
>
> that the Eteocretans (the original inhabitants) were Greek. But, in>>>
>
> WRONG! You don't have the remotest clue of the meaning of the words Greek
> and Hellenic. The Eteocretans were only regarded as not being Hellenes. That
> does not mean that they were not regarded as Greeks. The Hellenes were
> Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans and Ionians, and named after Hellene the son of
> Deukalion, the father of Dorus, Aeolus and Xuthus and the word was not
> coined as a collective term until the first Olympiad. The term Greeks was
> coined by the Romans to refer to ALL the inhabitants of Greece since the
> first people from Greece they came into contact with were Pelasgians from
> Thessaly who were descended from Graecus the great grandson of Pelasgus. Get
> an education you ignorant fool and start reading historical texts using the
> definition of the ancients not your own totally clueless modern inventions
> of what you mistakenly think the terms mean.
>
> <<<any case, if the Minoans were Greek, then you can translate for us the
> Eteocretan inscriptions found in the island of Krete, would you? They>>>
>
> How do you know there are written in Eteocretan, a language which no record
> of exists?
>
> <<<are written with the typical Greek alphabet but nobody so far has
> provided a translation. I am sure you can do it. Give it a try!!>>>
>
> Clueless fool. Crete was inhabited by Carians, Leleges and Phoenicians all
Who were not Greeks.
> of whom used the Cadmian alphabet and if 90% of the text is corrupted as is
> normal then it would be impossible to read even if it was written in
> English.
The oldest evidence of enhabitance goes back to 7000BC, Greeks were
nowere near until 2000BC.
ADR
> "ADR" <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> WRONG! You don't have the remotest clue of the meaning of the words Greek
> and Hellenic. The Eteocretans were only regarded as not being Hellenes. That
> does not mean that they were not regarded as Greeks. The Hellenes were
> Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans and Ionians, and named after Hellene the son of
> Deukalion, the father of Dorus, Aeolus and Xuthus and the word was not
> coined as a collective term until the first Olympiad. The term Greeks was
> coined by the Romans to refer to ALL the inhabitants of Greece since the
> first people from Greece they came into contact with were Pelasgians from
> Thessaly who were descended from Graecus the great grandson of Pelasgus. Get
> an education you ignorant fool and start reading historical texts using the
> definition of the ancients not your own totally clueless modern inventions
> of what you mistakenly think the terms mean.
It is amazing how deep your ignorance is. The Hellenes and the Greeks
are tautologies. Sure, the term Greek originated from the Latin
Graecus but there is a much simpler explanation for this than the
"Romans meeting the Pelasgians who were descended from Graecus". Where
do you find these gems? In fact, the term originated by the fact that
travellers from Italy usually landed in the gulf of Ambrakia, which
was near the lands of the Graikoi. As for the term "Hellene", it was
only adopted by Greek speakers from about the beginning/middle of the
7th century BCE. Prior to that, the term only applied to a small area
in Phthia, where the followers of Achilles came from, as it is
described in the Iliad. How the term became widespread is really
unknown. By the way, the term "Hellene" is not a Greek word!!
Listen, this is fun. I have never seen anybody as deluded as you.
Tell me one thing since you are so Helleno-centric. Does anybody in
Greece agree with you? Can you provide any evidence than anybody else
other than you in the 21st century believes these wild theories apart
from you?
myrmidon
>
> - Show quoted text -
Greeks were relatively new comers to Crete, around 1500BC.
ADR
As conquerors, yes. However, the Mycenean Greeks had a long
association with the Minoans and served as mercenaries in their
armies. The famous fresco of the fleet in Akrotiri displays a sea
battle (and an expedition to the coast of Africa) in which Minoan
sailors intermingle with Mycenan warriors, prominent with their ox
hide shields and boar tusk helmets.
Agamemnon
"Gog" <iispec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:95b38699-e380-4f25...@k32g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
<<<Who were not Greeks.>>>
Which is when writing was invented in Greece. Who do you thing invented it.
The previous inhabitants, who spent 5000 years without it or the new
arrivals who arrived just when writing first appears.
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote in message
> Tlwch Agamemnon wrote:
>> Ned Latham wrote:
>> > Tlwch Agamemnon wrote:
>> > > Ned Latham wrote:
>> > > > Tlwch Agamemnon wrote:
>
> ----snip----
>
>
>> > > > > The Pelasgians spoke
>> > > >
>> > > > "... a barbarous language ...". See your own evidence above,
>> > > > you moron.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > the Arcado-Cypriot Mycenaean dialect
>> > > >
>> > > > LOL. Your falsehoods get stupider and stupider. We know what
>> > > > language was spoken by the Pelasgians who lived on Lemnos
>> > > > before Miltiades evicted them, and that it's not Greek and
>> > > > not related to Greek.
>> > >
>> > > WRONG!
>> >
>> > Nope.
>>
>> WRONG! Ignorant clueless fool. We know from Herodotus that the Pelasgians
>> spoke Greek since the Greek he spoke was descended from Pelasgian by his
>> own admission.
>
> You're wrong again, fool.
WRONG AGAIN CLUELESS IGNORANT IDIOT!
>
>> > > Where know what language the Pelasgians who lived in Palestine
>> > > after whom the land was named originally spoke and it was Greek.
>> >
>> > I said Lemnos, you idiot. Palestine is irrelevant. The Athenians
>> > too were Pelasgians who spoke Greek -- after they joined the Greek
>> > community. But that too is irrelevant to the point at hand. The
>> > language of the Pelasgians of Lemnos was not Greek.
>>
>> WRONG! It was Greek and Herodotus and Thucydides heard it and knew it was
>> Greek.
>
> You're wrong again, fool.
WRONG AGAIN CLUELESS IGNORANT IDIOT!
>
>> There is no evidence to the contrary.
>
> You're wrong again, fool.
WRONG AGAIN CLUELESS IGNORANT IDIOT!
>
>> The Pelasgians are Greek by
>> definition.
>
> You're wrong again, fool.
WRONG AGAIN CLUELESS IGNORANT IDIOT!
>
>> Graecus was the great-grandson of Pelasgus.
>
> Irrelevant.
WRONG AGAIN CLUELESS IGNORANT IDIOT!
>
>> > > The people who > lived in Lemnos also included Carians and Thracians.
>> >
>> > They weren't the Pelasgians evicted by Miltiades, imbecile.
>>
>> Who ever said they were.
>
> You implied it, moron.
WRONG AGAIN CLUELESS IGNORANT IDIOT!
>
>> The Pelasgians evicted by Miltiades spoke GREEK you imbecile.
>
> You're wrong again, fool.
WRONG AGAIN CLUELESS IGNORANT IDIOT!
>
>> > > > ----cretinous drivel and insane frothing at the mouth snipped----
>> > >
>> > > So you snipped your own cretinous drivel then. Good.
>> >
>> > Ha! You wish.
>>
>> You did.
>
> You're wrong again, fool. Try to think: Why the fuck would *I* make such
> a silly wish?
BECAUSE YOU HAVE TOTALLY HUMILIATED YOURSELF WITH YOUR COMPLETE LACK OF
KNOWLEDGE OR UNDERSTANDING OF TRUE HISTORY AS WRITTEN BY HISTORIANS!
WHO DO YOU THINK IS CORRECT MORON, HERODOTUS WHO WERE THERE AND SAID
HELLENIC WAS A DIALECT OF PELASGIAN OR YOU WHO DOESN'T HAVE A CLUE ABOUT
HISTORY?
>
> You drivelling idiot.
WRONG AGAIN CLUELESS IGNORANT IDIOT!
>
> Ned Latham
Agamemnon
On Dec 23, 5:16 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> <<<any case, if the Minoans were Greek, then you can translate for us the
> Eteocretan inscriptions found in the island of Krete, would you? They>>>
>
> How do you know there are written in Eteocretan, a language which no
> record
> of exists?
<<<Well, apparently there are a number of inscriptions in that language
utilizing the Greek alphabet. Three of them were found at Phaistos.
You can check with the local museum and archaeological records.>>>
Which doesn't in any way imply that is was Eteocretan.
> <<<are written with the typical Greek alphabet but nobody so far has
> provided a translation. I am sure you can do it. Give it a try!!>>>
>
> Clueless fool.
<<<He, he...>>>
> Crete was inhabited by Carians, Leleges and Phoenicians all
> of whom used the Cadmian alphabet and if 90% of the text is corrupted as
> is
> normal then it would be impossible to read even if it was written in
> English.
<<<Now, we have a historical record of the presence of the Eteokretans
and the fact that they did not speak Greek. You claim that other>>>
WRONG!
Stop making up fictitious history which is totally contradicted by what all
ancient historians have actual written. Nobody says that the Eteocretans did
not speak Greek. In fact according to Homer their language overlapped with
the languages of the Achaeans, Dorians and Pelasgains. The only way this
could be possible is if the Eteocretans were indo-Europeans and their
language was descended from proto-Greek and most likely to be have been a
dialect of proto-Aeolic or proto-Mycenaean.
"There is a fair and fruitful island in mid-ocean called Crete; it is
thickly peopled and there are nine cities in it: the people speak many
different languages which overlap one another, for there are Achaeans, brave
Eteocretans, Dorians of three-fold race, and noble Pelasgi."
<<<ethnic groups also settled there. On the other hand, you want to
insist that the Minoans were Greek. I think that you have your>>>
Of course they were Greek. The Minoan civilisation only picks up and writing
is invented when the Greeks arrive in the north.
<<<knickers in a twist and you do not know where to turn next. In any
case, point us to any credible source with a translation of Linear A
tablets (the ones you claim are indeed Greek). Anything???>>>
I have done that already on plenty of occasions. The majority of Linear A
has been proven to be an Aeolic dialect.
Agamemnon
On Dec 23, 5:16 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> "ADR" <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> WRONG! You don't have the remotest clue of the meaning of the words Greek
> and Hellenic. The Eteocretans were only regarded as not being Hellenes.
> That
> does not mean that they were not regarded as Greeks. The Hellenes were
> Dorians, Aeolians, Achaeans and Ionians, and named after Hellene the son
> of
> Deukalion, the father of Dorus, Aeolus and Xuthus and the word was not
> coined as a collective term until the first Olympiad. The term Greeks was
> coined by the Romans to refer to ALL the inhabitants of Greece since the
> first people from Greece they came into contact with were Pelasgians from
> Thessaly who were descended from Graecus the great grandson of Pelasgus.
> Get
> an education you ignorant fool and start reading historical texts using
> the
> definition of the ancients not your own totally clueless modern inventions
> of what you mistakenly think the terms mean.
<<<It is amazing how deep your ignorance is. The Hellenes and the Greeks
are tautologies. Sure, the term Greek originated from the Latin>>>
WRONG! The Hellenes are a sub-set of Greeks which is used as the common
identifier of the universal group.
<<<Graecus but there is a much simpler explanation for this than the
"Romans meeting the Pelasgians who were descended from Graecus". Where
do you find these gems? In fact, the term originated by the fact that>>>
IN BOOKS WRITTEN BY ANCIENT HISTORIANS unlike you who keeps making
everything up out of thin air.
<<<travellers from Italy usually landed in the gulf of Ambrakia, which
was near the lands of the Graikoi. As for the term "Hellene", it was
only adopted by Greek speakers from about the beginning/middle of the
7th century BCE. Prior to that, the term only applied to a small area>>>
WRONG! It was adopted by at least 776 BC when the first Olympiad began,
since only Hellenes were allowed to take part in the Olympic Games and from
its very beginning it allowed all Hellenic city states to take part. Why
don't you actually read what historians have actually written instead a
making stuff up based on you're historical revisionist clulessness.
<<<in Phthia, where the followers of Achilles came from, as it is
described in the Iliad. How the term became widespread is really
unknown. By the way, the term "Hellene" is not a Greek word!!>>>
What a load of bullshit. The word Hellene means the shining ones and Hellas
or Ellada means land of light. It comes from the same Indo-European root as
Helios and Elf and is part of the Greco-Phoenician language which preceded
Indo-European and shares the same Greco-Phoenician roor as El or Alohi or
Allah.
<<<Listen, this is fun. I have never seen anybody as deluded as you.
Tell me one thing since you are so Helleno-centric. Does anybody in
Greece agree with you? Can you provide any evidence than anybody else
other than you in the 21st century believes these wild theories apart
from you?>>>
You are totally clueless about Greek history. You are nothing more than a
revisionist puppet. All genuine Greek historians accept what I have said as
being true since it is what all ancient Greek historians have actually
written, unlike what you have claimed which as a work of historically
baseless fiction.
Agamemnon
On Dec 23, 8:01 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> Before writing there were no gods whatsoever since no memory can be passed
> down beyond living memory without it. Before writing was invented and
> ancestral kings were made into gods nobody believed in anything except the
> forces of nature, and in that case they were regarded as nothing more than
> the physical forces that they are known to be today and markers of time,
> the
> weather and the harvest.
<<<Such a beautiful self-defeating argument, Agaga put together for our
delight...
He tells us about the beliefs men had before the time they could pass
down anything in their memory.
How the fuck can he know?
You may have survived mad cow disease, Agaga, but it ate most of your
brain.>>>
CLUELESS IGNORANT FOOL! We have the observations and records of ancient
historians including Philo, Porphyry and Eusebius which state what I have
said exactly. What do you have? NOTHING!
> Nobody is born with any urge whatsoever to worship
> any kind of god. Religion is something that is brainwashed into you.
> Animals
> don't worship gods and neither did pre-historical humans.
<<<Really? Get out from under your cosy blanket of ignorance and meet,
right in your backyard, gods from before people had any writing
system, as inscriptions attest: the main British pagan gods Etharun,
the stag-horned god, Cernunnos, the bull-horned or ram-horned God of
War, and Sulis the healing god, and different mother goddesses
concerned with the earth, fertility, sexual pleasures.>>>
WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT!
The gods of the ancient Britons were the same as those as the ancient
Greeks, Romans, Vikings and Germanic tribes. The ancient Britons had writing
since at least 1600 BC and we have the names of their kings from this time
until the time of Brutus recorded by Nennius, the Book of Invasions and
Annius. Brutus is also recorded by Diodorus and from Brutus onwards were
have the records of Monmouth, Gildas, Bede and others which take up all the
way to Athelson.
> The gods of the
> Babylonians and Assyrians were the kings of the Sumerians.
<<<Who were the gods of the Sumerians?>>>
Take a look for yourself.
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/babylonpanth.gif
Before Apsu and Tiamat the Sumerians had no gods.
Agamemnon
"Ned Latham" <n...@valhalla.oz> wrote in message
news:slrnhj4gh9...@woden.valhalla.oz...
Quit projecting and quit humiliating yourself, you clueless idiot.
>
> Ned Latham
ADR
> You are totally clueless about Greek history. You are nothing more than a
> revisionist puppet. All genuine Greek historians accept what I have said as
> being true since it is what all ancient Greek historians have actually
> written, unlike what you have claimed which as a work of historically
> baseless fiction.
I may reply to other element of your fertile imagination. But let me
put it bluntly. Not a ***single*** historian, Greek or otherwise has
even come close to supporting positions similar to your idiocies and
wild imaginings. Just mention one (a legitimate historian with an
academic appointment, not a crackpot). Just one!
I had really fun reading your link to the crackpot who supposedly
"deciphered" Linear A and found it similar to Aeolic Greek. Have you
noticed that not a single person ever supported this crackpot's
theories? Do you know how many highly trained linguists are in the
world? Have you any idea of how many experts with deep knowledge of
languages in the area (many extinct ones) have worked on this
problem? Let me tell you something. The moment a person believes
that he has deciphered Linear A, he is going to publish his findings
to many peer-reviewed publications on archaeology and linguistics.
His work will be examined and a scientific consensus will emerge.
This is how it is done, not by having wet dreams.
igor
> "Gog" <iispeciali...@gmail.com> wrote in message
writing aside, the point is those previous inhabitants who lived there
for at least 5000 years ARE the Minoans who were not Greeks.
Agamemnon
On Dec 24, 9:31 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> You are totally clueless about Greek history. You are nothing more than a
> revisionist puppet. All genuine Greek historians accept what I have said
> as
> being true since it is what all ancient Greek historians have actually
> written, unlike what you have claimed which as a work of historically
> baseless fiction.
<<<I may reply to other element of your fertile imagination. But let me
put it bluntly. Not a ***single*** historian, Greek or otherwise has
even come close to supporting positions similar to your idiocies and
wild imaginings. Just mention one (a legitimate historian with an
academic appointment, not a crackpot). Just one!>>>
All that you ever go on about is stuff from crackpot revisionist theories
that have no basis whatsoever in historical fact let alone the work of
ancient historians all of whose work you have decided to throw out of the
window because it totally contradicts all of your crackpot theories.
I quoted to you from Homer's Odyssey which states in perfectly clear
language that the Eteocretans the Pelasgians the Dorians and the Achaeans
all spoke related Greek dialects which totally demolishes everything you
have said and you have nothing whatsoever to refute it. Everything you have
said is complexly baseless fiction. All genuine historians agree with Homer
not with your baseless clueless revisionist fiction.
<<<I had really fun reading your link to the crackpot who supposedly
"deciphered" Linear A and found it similar to Aeolic Greek. Have you
noticed that not a single person ever supported this crackpot's
theories? Do you know how many highly trained linguists are in the
world? Have you any idea of how many experts with deep knowledge of
languages in the area (many extinct ones) have worked on this
problem? Let me tell you something. The moment a person believes>>>
Have you any idea what ancient historians have actually written?
"There is a fair and fruitful island in mid-ocean called Crete; it is
thickly
peopled and there are nine cities in it: the people speak many different
languages which overlap one another, for there are Achaeans, brave
Eteocretans, Dorians of three-fold race, and noble Pelasgi." (Homer's
Odyssey 19.170-180)
[Herodotus 1.58.1] "The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin,
changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of
the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in
numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a
multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of
numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I
think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied."
The above supports the language recorded in Linear A was Aeolic Greek.
<<<that he has deciphered Linear A, he is going to publish his findings
to many peer-reviewed publications on archaeology and linguistics.
His work will be examined and a scientific consensus will emerge.
This is how it is done, not by having wet dreams.>>>
Tsikritsis has published his work and no one has been able to refute it. It
is the most extensive and scientifically based study ever carried out on
Linear A and its shows it to be a dialect of Aeolic Greek.
igor
Here you defeated your own assertion. First you erroneously claim that
Minoans were Creeks, then you change your mind and state that previous
inhabitants spent 5000 years without writing until Creeks arrived. you
shoot yourself in the foot here, end of argument, you loose.
Agamemnon
"igor" <inbel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d75a9c13-a546-44b9...@h14g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
No. The point is that before the Greeks arrived there was no writing and
when they did there was. That means that Linear A was invented as a
consequence of the Greeks invading and therefore it was most likely invented
to record Greek. This is also supported by the used of Cypriot Linear Script
in Cyprus to write Greek until 400 BC and Cypriot Linear Stripe is know to
have been descended from the same common ancestor as Linear A whereas Linear
B is descended from Linear A. Since both Cypriot Linear Script and Linear B
are both Greek, it is most likely that the ancestor of Linear A and Cypriot
Linear Script from which all these scripts derived was used to write Greek
from the moment the Greeks arrived in Greece and thus the Greeks must have
also been in Crete at this time as well and this fits in with the appearance
of stone palaces in Crete and Troy at the same time as the Greeks arrived in
the north.
Agamemnon
Wrong. The term Minoans is a misnomer and an invention of fiction. The
people who built the stone palaces in Crete and Troy were the people who
were newly arrived in Greece at the time these palaces first appear and
these are the Greeks.
There were no such things are Minoans, only Greeks and the previous Hellads.
igor
> "igor" <inbellt...@gmail.com> wrote in message
High Energy Liquid Laser Area Defense System (HELLADS), dont change
the subject, this is the only term for hellads out there and it has
nothing to do with present discussion.
You yourself stated that the original inhabitants of Crete were the
amalgamation of Anatolians and Levantines people for at least 5000
years, and they are called the Minoans. Creeks came much later, after
2000BC first as mercenaries (heavily borrowed from this ancient
society) and much later after 1500BC as conquerers of the declining
civilization (much like Rome and barbarian invaders).
Now you can keep arguing as much as you want, but this is getting
tiring and I am rather go out and enjoy the company of sane people.
Agamemnon
Clueless fool. The term Hellads means the original inhabitants of Greece.
<<<You yourself stated that the original inhabitants of Crete were the
amalgamation of Anatolians and Levantines people for at least 5000
years, and they are called the Minoans. Creeks came much later, after>>>
There are no such things as Minoans. Minos I did not reign until 1406 BC.
The first inhabitants of Greece were the Hallads who came from eastern
Anatolia and Palestine.
<<<2000BC first as mercenaries (heavily borrowed from this ancient
society) and much later after 1500BC as conquerers of the declining
civilization (much like Rome and barbarian invaders).>>>
Wrong. Greeks from the Balkans came into the Greek peninsula starting in
2200 BC and came down again in a far larger wave in 1900 BC. These people
were already contact with the Helladic people of Greece before they came
down into the Greek peninsula.
<<<Now you can keep arguing as much as you want, but this is getting
tiring and I am rather go out and enjoy the company of sane people.>>>
You are a clueless ignorant fool.
igor
Not in this universe. Googling "hellads" returnes: High Energy Liquid
Laser Area Defense System (HELLADS), absolutely zero results for
Greeks.
However if you google Pelasgians, you get the original inhabitants of
Greece.
>
> <<<You yourself stated that the original inhabitants of Crete were the
> amalgamation of Anatolians and Levantines people for at least 5000
> years, and they are called the Minoans. Creeks came much later, after>>>
>
> There are no such things as Minoans. Minos I did not reign until 1406 BC.
>
Correct. Minoan is not a self designation.
> The first inhabitants of Greece were the Hallads who came from eastern
> Anatolia and Palestine.
Dude, there is no such a thing as Hallads, are you high?
>
> <<<2000BC first as mercenaries (heavily borrowed from this ancient
> society) and much later after 1500BC as conquerers of the declining
> civilization (much like Rome and barbarian invaders).>>>
>
> Wrong. Greeks from the Balkans came into the Greek peninsula starting in
> 2200 BC and came down again in a far larger wave in 1900 BC. These people
> were already contact with the Helladic people of Greece before they came
> down into the Greek peninsula.
Why am I wrong? Where did I mention Greek peninsula?
>
> <<<Now you can keep arguing as much as you want, but this is getting
> tiring and I am rather go out and enjoy the company of sane people.>>>
>
> You are a clueless ignorant fool.
Shut up.
ADR
> <<<It is amazing how deep your ignorance is. The Hellenes and the Greeks
> are tautologies. Sure, the term Greek originated from the Latin>>>
>
> WRONG! The Hellenes are a sub-set of Greeks which is used as the common
> identifier of the universal group.
So, you are saying that I am right, right????
> <<<Graecus but there is a much simpler explanation for this than the
> "Romans meeting the Pelasgians who were descended from Graecus". Where
> do you find these gems? In fact, the term originated by the fact that>>>
>
> IN BOOKS WRITTEN BY ANCIENT HISTORIANS unlike you who keeps making
> everything up out of thin air.
Please cite the ancient historian who said exactly what you say.
There can't be many, I am sure. In fact, it is you who is making this
up from a whole cloth. Tell me of any historian who mentions that the
Romans met the Pelasgians. Come on!!
> <<<travellers from Italy usually landed in the gulf of Ambrakia, which
> was near the lands of the Graikoi. As for the term "Hellene", it was
> only adopted by Greek speakers from about the beginning/middle of the
> 7th century BCE. Prior to that, the term only applied to a small area>>>
>
> WRONG! It was adopted by at least 776 BC when the first Olympiad began,
> since only Hellenes were allowed to take part in the Olympic Games and from
> its very beginning it allowed all Hellenic city states to take part. Why
> don't you actually read what historians have actually written instead a
> making stuff up based on you're historical revisionist clulessness.
He, he, he...Are you dreaming these things up as you go??? How do you
know what was ever said or declared in the first Olympiad when there
is not a single text from anybody contemporary? The term Hellene for
the inhabitants of Greece does not occur in Homer's work (the term
only applies to the followers of Achilles) although more prevalent in
the later work by Hesiod, In any way, I would suggest that you may
want to read Jonathan Hall's great work "Hellenicity" regarding the
evolution of the Hellenic identity.
> <<<in Phthia, where the followers of Achilles came from, as it is
> described in the Iliad. How the term became widespread is really
> unknown. By the way, the term "Hellene" is not a Greek word!!>>>
>
> What a load of bullshit. The word Hellene means the shining ones and Hellas
> or Ellada means land of light.
No, it does not. You are confusing ^Ellas (Hellas) -the h was
inserted to denote the higher E which was indicated in Alexandrine
Greek with the daseia- with selas. These are two different words.
>It comes from the same Indo-European root as
> Helios and Elf and is part of the Greco-Phoenician language which preceded
> Indo-European and shares the same Greco-Phoenician roor as El or Alohi or
> Allah.
You are inventive, this is for sure.
> <<<Listen, this is fun. I have never seen anybody as deluded as you.
> Tell me one thing since you are so Helleno-centric. Does anybody in
> Greece agree with you? Can you provide any evidence than anybody else
> other than you in the 21st century believes these wild theories apart
> from you?>>>
>
> You are totally clueless about Greek history. You are nothing more than a
> revisionist puppet. All genuine Greek historians accept what I have said as
> being true since it is what all ancient Greek historians have actually
> written, unlike what you have claimed which as a work of historically
> baseless fiction.
Who are the "genuine" Greek historians?
myrmidon
I am in agreement with you here. We know about the legend of Cudmus,
the Phoenician prince who founded Thebes. In thish legend by the
instructions of Athena, Cadmus, the Phoenician sowed the dragon's
teeth in the ground, from which there sprang a race of fierce armed
men, called Spartes ("sown"), this very well could mean Phoenician
futhers, local mothers for the founding tribe for Spartans. Phoenician
tribe of Dan and Greek Danaans COULD have some connections also. There
is many more supporting clues, I am sure. Not sure about the Hallads,
but it is irrelavant.
>
> <<<2000BC first as mercenaries (heavily borrowed from this ancient
> society) and much later after 1500BC as conquerers of the declining
> civilization (much like Rome and barbarian invaders).>>>
>
> Wrong. Greeks from the Balkans came into the Greek peninsula starting in
> 2200 BC and came down again in a far larger wave in 1900 BC. These people
> were already contact with the Helladic people of Greece before they came
> down into the Greek peninsula.
>
> <<<Now you can keep arguing as much as you want, but this is getting
> tiring and I am rather go out and enjoy the company of sane people.>>>
>
> You are a clueless ignorant fool.- Hide quoted text -
Ned Latham
> WRONG AGAIN CLUELESS IGNORANT IDIOT!
----snip----
LOL. He sure is.
Ned Latham
Ned Latham
> Quit projecting and quit humiliating yourself, you clueless idiot.
But is he sane enough and smart enough to take it?
Ned Latham
Agamemnon
POPPYCOCK!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helladic_period
Early Helladic I 2800-2500
Early Helladic II 2500-2300
Early Helladic III 2300-2100
Middle Helladic 2100-1550
Late Helladic I 1550-1500
Late Helladic II 1500-1400
Late Helladic III 1400-1060
This proves just how clueless about history your are.
<<<However if you google Pelasgians, you get the original inhabitants of
Greece.>>>
You mean Hellads? Because the Pelasgians were Mycenaean Greeks.
>
> <<<You yourself stated that the original inhabitants of Crete were the
> amalgamation of Anatolians and Levantines people for at least 5000
> years, and they are called the Minoans. Creeks came much later, after>>>
>
> There are no such things as Minoans. Minos I did not reign until 1406 BC.
>
<<<Correct. Minoan is not a self designation.>>>
> The first inhabitants of Greece were the Hallads who came from eastern
> Anatolia and Palestine.
<<<Dude, there is no such a thing as Hallads, are you high?>>>
Dude, YOU ARE TOTALLY CLUELESS ABOUT HISTORY!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helladic_period
Early Helladic I 2800-2500
Early Helladic II 2500-2300
Early Helladic III 2300-2100
Middle Helladic 2100-1550
Late Helladic I 1550-1500
Late Helladic II 1500-1400
Late Helladic III 1400-1060
>
> <<<2000BC first as mercenaries (heavily borrowed from this ancient
> society) and much later after 1500BC as conquerers of the declining
> civilization (much like Rome and barbarian invaders).>>>
>
> Wrong. Greeks from the Balkans came into the Greek peninsula starting in
> 2200 BC and came down again in a far larger wave in 1900 BC. These people
> were already contact with the Helladic people of Greece before they came
> down into the Greek peninsula.
<<<Why am I wrong? Where did I mention Greek peninsula?>>>
I am stating a fact.
The time spanning the arrival of the Greeks from the north into the Greek
peninsula is known as the Middle Helladic Period 2100-1550 BC of culture for
good reason. The term Minoan is a misnomer and has been superseded by more
scientific and accurate terminology.
>
> <<<Now you can keep arguing as much as you want, but this is getting
> tiring and I am rather go out and enjoy the company of sane people.>>>
>
> You are a clueless ignorant fool.
<<<Shut up.>>>
Get an education.
Agamemnon
On Dec 24, 9:31 am, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
> <<<It is amazing how deep your ignorance is. The Hellenes and the Greeks
> are tautologies. Sure, the term Greek originated from the Latin>>>
>
> WRONG! The Hellenes are a sub-set of Greeks which is used as the common
> identifier of the universal group.
<<<So, you are saying that I am right, right????>>>
You never said that. That is what I have always said from the very start.
> <<<Graecus but there is a much simpler explanation for this than the
> "Romans meeting the Pelasgians who were descended from Graecus". Where
> do you find these gems? In fact, the term originated by the fact that>>>
>
> IN BOOKS WRITTEN BY ANCIENT HISTORIANS unlike you who keeps making
> everything up out of thin air.
<<<Please cite the ancient historian who said exactly what you say.>>>
ALL OF THEM!
<<<There can't be many, I am sure. In fact, it is you who is making this
up from a whole cloth. Tell me of any historian who mentions that the
Romans met the Pelasgians. Come on!!>>>
ALL OF THEM including Dionysus of Halicarnassus (Antiquites 1.11) and
Porcius Cato.
> <<<travellers from Italy usually landed in the gulf of Ambrakia, which
> was near the lands of the Graikoi. As for the term "Hellene", it was
> only adopted by Greek speakers from about the beginning/middle of the
> 7th century BCE. Prior to that, the term only applied to a small area>>>
>
> WRONG! It was adopted by at least 776 BC when the first Olympiad began,
> since only Hellenes were allowed to take part in the Olympic Games and
> from
> its very beginning it allowed all Hellenic city states to take part. Why
> don't you actually read what historians have actually written instead a
> making stuff up based on you're historical revisionist clulessness.
<<<He, he, he...Are you dreaming these things up as you go??? How do you
know what was ever said or declared in the first Olympiad when there
is not a single text from anybody contemporary? The term Hellene for>>>
Obviously you have never read anything written by an ancient historian in
your life. They all say what I have said starting from Herodotus.
<<<the inhabitants of Greece does not occur in Homer's work (the term
only applies to the followers of Achilles) although more prevalent in
the later work by Hesiod, In any way, I would suggest that you may
want to read Jonathan Hall's great work "Hellenicity" regarding the
evolution of the Hellenic identity.>>>
CLUELESS FOOL! Homer wrote in 900 BC. The First Olympiad was in 776 BC. The
collective term Hellene was therefore coined between those two dates.
> <<<in Phthia, where the followers of Achilles came from, as it is
> described in the Iliad. How the term became widespread is really
> unknown. By the way, the term "Hellene" is not a Greek word!!>>>
>
> What a load of bullshit. The word Hellene means the shining ones and
> Hellas
> or Ellada means land of light.
<<<No, it does not. You are confusing ^Ellas (Hellas) -the h was
inserted to denote the higher E which was indicated in Alexandrine
Greek with the daseia- with selas. These are two different words.>>>
I am not confusing anything.
>It comes from the same Indo-European root as
> Helios and Elf and is part of the Greco-Phoenician language which preceded
> Indo-European and shares the same Greco-Phoenician roor as El or Alohi or
> Allah.
<<<You are inventive, this is for sure.>>>
What I have said is accepted by all linguists clueless one.
> <<<Listen, this is fun. I have never seen anybody as deluded as you.
> Tell me one thing since you are so Helleno-centric. Does anybody in
> Greece agree with you? Can you provide any evidence than anybody else
> other than you in the 21st century believes these wild theories apart
> from you?>>>
>
> You are totally clueless about Greek history. You are nothing more than a
> revisionist puppet. All genuine Greek historians accept what I have said
> as
> being true since it is what all ancient Greek historians have actually
> written, unlike what you have claimed which as a work of historically
> baseless fiction.
<<<Who are the "genuine" Greek historians?>>>
Everyone who accepts what the ancients wrote as the only true accounts of
ancient history, not made up 19th and 20th century revisionist fiction.