two early Neolithic causewayed enclosures, built in Wales 6,000 years ago
Roger Bagula
North Wales
Drought unearths treasure trove of ancient monuments
Aug 8 2006
By David Greenwood, Daily Post
THE summer drought has unearthed a treasure trove of finds for
historians taking a birds eye view of Wales.
Heatwave conditions, which have parched the Welsh countryside, proved
ideal for aerial archaeologists.
Last night they were described as the best for at least adecade with a
host of buried sites revealed from the air.
The Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales
made major discoveries using light aircraft to survey the Welsh landscape.
"It has been absolutely astounding. Discoveries have been made across
Wales visible both as cropmarks in ripening crops and scorched
grassland," said a spokesman.
They include two early Neolithic causewayed enclosures, built in Wales
6,000 years ago, of which only three were previously known.
IEJ
"Roger Bagula" <rlba...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:FYHFg.10793$kO3...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/regionalnews/tm_objectid=17526724%2
6method=full%26siteid=50142%26headline=drought%2dunearths%2dtreasure%2dtrove
%2dof%2dancient%2dmonuments-name_page.html
>
> North Wales
>
>
> Drought unearths treasure trove of ancient monuments
>
> Aug 8 2006
>
> By David Greenwood, Daily Post
>
>
> THE summer drought has unearthed a treasure trove of finds for
> historians taking a birds eye view of Wales.
>
> Heatwave conditions, which have parched the Welsh countryside, proved
> ideal for aerial archaeologists.
>
> Last night they were described as the best for at least adecade with a
> host of buried sites revealed from the air.
>
> The Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales
> made major discoveries using light aircraft to survey the Welsh landscape.
>
> "It has been absolutely astounding. Discoveries have been made across
> Wales visible both as cropmarks in ripening crops and scorched
> grassland," said a spokesman.
>
>
>
>
> They include two early Neolithic causewayed enclosures, built in Wales
> 6,000 years ago, of which only three were previously known.
Thanks. I long to see photos. Have you seen any?
Inger E
Roger Bagula
>
>Thanks. I long to see photos. Have you seen any?
>
>Inger E
>
>
>
>
I searched Dr. Tioby Drivber and got pictures:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/5253824.stm
IEJ
Thanks.
Inger E
Roger Bagula
(It is hard telling but I think Tody Driver is a pilot ? Toby Driver,
Air Survey Officer. Toby....@rcahmw.org.uk
and not qualified to date stuff at 6000 years old from aerial
photographs: good digital photographer though)
http://aarg.univie.ac.at/worldwide/wales/wales.html
Aerial Archaeology in Wales
Toby Driver
The flying programme
The Royal Commission's flying programme has three main aspects:
exploratory work, the photography of sites and landscapes of national
importance, and recording of industrial or architectural subjects.
Exploratory reconnaissance is used to discover and record 'new' sites,
some of which may only be seen from the air. In late spring or summer
the buried ditches of plough-levelled sites may cause patterns of lush
growth or 'cropmarks' in ripening arable fields or pasture; at the same
time, buried stonework of walls and roads can cause crops to whither and
parch out leaving lighter lines. In both these ways, cropmarks can show
the position and layout of otherwise invisible archaeological sites.
Very faint earthwork remains, often found in upland regions, can be
equally difficult to see on the ground. When these sites are
photographed in low winter or spring sunlight the effects of light and
shadow, at times combined with a dusting of frost or wind-blown snow,
can help to pick out indistinct outlines with striking clarity. In very
dry summers, when conditions are exceptional, many hundreds of 'new'
cropmark sites can be discovered in the space of just a few months,
showing the fundamental contribution aerial photography can make to our
understanding of the archaeology of Wales.
In liaison with Cadw, the Royal Commission also overflies Scheduled
Ancient Monuments (SAMs) to monitor and photograph their condition. The
flying programme continues to respond to changing research and
conservation priorities and in recent years aerial photography has been
employed to record for posterity the rapidly-changing urban and
industrial landscapes of Wales. The Royal Commission actively
co-ordinates and funds the work of aerial reconnaissance and air photo
mapping by other bodies in Wales.
Contact :
Toby Driver, Air Survey Officer. Toby....@rcahmw.org.uk
Air Photo Mapping and Record Creation programme
Air photography of archaeological sites in Wales can only be a first
step towards fully identifying, recording and eventually managing the
archaeological heritage of Wales. Many parts of Wales, particularly in
the upland zone, still await basic archaeological survey to identify and
record their archaeological heritage. In recent years, field projects
such as the Royal Commission's Uplands Initiative, begun in 1991, have
sought to redress this balance. However, since 1995 a programme of
digital air photo mapping and record creation in Wales has also begun to
make a significant impact on the study of upland and plough-levelled
lowland archaeological landscapes in the country. By the year 2000, air
photo mapping had been completed for 551.75 sq kms of Wales or 2.67% of
the total landmass, while mapping of cropmark evidence alone has been
completed for a further 1,118 sq kms or 5.41% of Wales.
The air photo mapping programme in Wales has a remit to rapidly record
all redundant features of the built landscape from earliest times until
the end of the Second World War, mapping and recording all sites for a
25 sq. km area in about 10 days. Crucially, the programme in Wales has
always been computer-based and provides a digital plan of each and every
site for use in research and management work.
Since 1995 our programme of air photo mapping has developed enormously
in terms of technology and technique, from the days of FastCAD and
FastMAP GIS between 1995 and 1998, to the change over to ArcView GIS in
1999. The Bradford Aerial 5 programme and AutoCAD are used for
rectification in the flat plane (for scanned images and vector plots
respectively) which, with careful checking, gives us the accuracy levels
we require for 1:10,000 first-level mapping; to within 5m on level
terrain and between 5-15m in undulating or hilly terrain. Sites plots
are drawn up in ArcView GIS. Records are created on-screen writing to a
FoxPro database. Once incorporated into a GIS and viewed against other
datasets, such as site databases and priority areas for Upland Survey,
the air photo map becomes a powerful tool for managing the
archaeological heritage over wide areas.
Contact :
David Thomas, Air Photo Mapping Officer. David....@rcahmw.org.uk
For general enquiries: NMRW Reader Services, Crown Building, Plas Crug,
Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, SY23 1NJ, UK. Telephone: +1970 621200 Fax:
+1970 627701 email: nmr....@rcahmw.org.uk. Public opening hours
09.30-16.00 Monday-Friday. http://www.rcahmw.org.uk/
All images are Crown Copyright RCAHMW.
IMAGE GALLERY
th_Cwmcerwyn.jpg - 19602 Bytes
Cwmcerwyn: Bronze Age burial cairns under winter frost in the
Preseli Mountains, west Wales (Crown Copyright RCAHMW. Neg: 99-CS-2309)
th_Cilcennin.jpg - 6152 Bytes
Cilcennin: Iron Age hillfort at Cilcennin, west Wales (Crown
Copyright RCAHMW Neg: 99-CS-2359)
th_Caerphilly.jpg - 12251 Bytes
Caerphilly: Caerphilly Castle, south Wales (Crown Copyright RCAHMW.
Neg: 99-CS-2096).
th_Machen.jpg - 19005 Bytes
Machen quarry: Quarry at Machen, south Wales (Crown Copyright
RCAHMW. Neg: 99-CS-2105)
th_Solva.jpg - 14719 Bytes
Solva: Harbour and limekilns at Solva, west Wales (Crown Copyright
RCAHMW. Neg: 00-CS-0697)
th_Fishtraps.jpg - 5051 Bytes
Fishtraps: Post-Medieval fish traps exposed at low tide in Swansea
Bay, south Wales (Crown Copyright RCAHMW. Neg: 00-CS-435)
th_Penallta Horse.jpg - 5107 Bytes
Penallta Horse: Landscape sculpture of a giant horse at Penallta
Community Park, south Wales (Crown Copyright RCAHMW. Neg: 99-CS-2115)
th_Minnellium stadium.jpg - 9812 Bytes
Millennium stadium: The re-built Millennium Stadium in Cardiff,
capital city of Wales. (Crown Copyright RCAHMW. Neg: 00-CS-0758)
HOME
Roger Bagula
If Toby Driver were really good,
he would probably be using infared and doing his work at night.
He wouldn't have to wait for a draught that way, I think.
It is the insolating effects of the underground stone that causes the
differences in vegitation ( differences in heat content... stone
compared to soil).
IEJ
> More pictures here:
> (It is hard telling but I think Tody Driver is a pilot ? Toby Driver,
> Air Survey Officer. Toby....@rcahmw.org.uk
> and not qualified to date stuff at 6000 years old from aerial
> photographs: good digital photographer though)
Well he might be. When I had my Military voluntar education in Nyköping,
which included analyzing air-photos an other type of way then what I had
when studying Geography at Gothenburg's University and learnt air-photo
'reading', we did have some Air Survey Officers learning more advanced
'alternatives'.
Since it's more than 30 years ago I guess it's no secret now that it's
possible to identify things deep in ground and depending on growth above how
water and soil react, which colors etc that shows up during which type of
lightning etc etc - it's possible to identify if something is built
recently, 100 years ago , 1000 years ago etc. Learnt a new variant six years
ago in civil Geography-course..... the analyse 'systems' I know of and known
of gives more creditentials to the possibility that he actually could give a
good estimation of how long the remains been in the ground.
For example on one of the photos, no 4, one easily could see at least one
older and two later(!) tracks/remains as well as a very interesting 'figure'
not the same but alike others I have read of having been known in Wales for
ages.
Inger E
<skip the rest>, since I am not sure what to say about them before we
'settled' the part above.
IEJ
> Spelling...I hit two keys at once and sent before I looked at it...
> If Toby Driver were really good,
> he would probably be using infared and doing his work at night.
Well that haven't been needed for the last 30 years..... better way to do
that. If you find 'tracks' from air-photo you can go to ground and during
three periods a year - early spring, hot summermornings and early fall, you
can combine airphotos taken with 'normal' equipment, divide the colors of
the photo into red blue and yellow and work from that together with special
programs, ocular observations and photos taken on ground + using
3D-techinque photography(old method not the last 20 years one) on photos
taken using lilac-color scale. Easy to track several on each other existing
remains. Using an electric 'scanner' you can get a lot of more information
inclusively the deep and then all it takes is a small 'pin' down to that
deep. Nothing complicated, easy. Seen it down more than once.
Analysing photos myself as late as five years ago.
Inger E
Roger Bagula
IEJ wrote:
He appears to be claiming 6000 years only because that type of
architecture was abandoned later
not through photo analysis? (the Neolithic causeway)
The stones rows in the causeways actually appear closer to the surface
than in the circles.
As I said and I'll repeat it, now,
actual sediment digging is necessary to document ages for sites like this
unless you have sites that are similar that have been imaged under the
same conditions
whose ages are determined by geological sediment analysis and carbon 14
of wooden artifacts.
Without that you have no regressive method of analysis that is accurate.
Otherwise you can only say: they are "real old" from such pictures.
I'll agree that they are very old... not that they are 6000 years old.
Peter Alaca
Is that so? Why than is it that you don't know that the color
chanels are not red, blue and _yellow_, but red, blue and
_green_, and that what you call photos in "lilac-color scale",
are in shades of red?
Stop presenting your ignorance as expertise.
--
p.a.
IEJ
I shouldn't say 6000 years, but I would definitely cross the 0 line and go
relatively long beyond that. If you look closer, (hope you know how to, if
not send me a private mail because that's nothing I will tell in detail on
net) and analyse no 4 you will find so called 'celtic fields' above part of
two of the remains one directly can observe. Please note that only one of
those two I refer to is noted under photo and one other which in my mind is
a bit obscure.
> The stones rows in the causeways actually appear closer to the surface
> than in the circles.
They should. Btw this is one of the reasons for my questions re. Stonehenge.
Can take that discussion later.
> As I said and I'll repeat it, now,
> actual sediment digging is necessary to document ages for sites like this
> unless you have sites that are similar that have been imaged under the
> same conditions
> whose ages are determined by geological sediment analysis and carbon 14
> of wooden artifacts.
You get better reading with actual sediment, yes. But you don't need that
now-a-days to establish if something is new, 100 or 1000 years old etc. Now
for exact information regarding that I can't present here in an open group.
Only mention what I know have been presented elsewhere, and that's quite a
lot but not all that was possible 30 years ago and definitely not what last
five years added to that.
I take it that you are aware of some of the officially presented mark-radar
systems. Let's here state that the possibilities to use them and what they
can present in question of information and fact combined with the other
methods I mentioned are far more exact than what's been presented. For
example combined with the lilac color scale photos, which as I guess you
know can be used to establish exactly which type and how many of each
species grow on the field you have photographed?, and a pin which gives
resistence as well as a testing result for Ph-value, can give you much more
information than what's commonly known.
> Without that you have no regressive method of analysis that is accurate.
> Otherwise you can only say: they are "real old" from such pictures.
> I'll agree that they are very old... not that they are 6000 years old.
I would say more than 3500 years old less than 7000.
That is due to the overlapping part which definitely is from Bronze Age, at
least. Btw did you notice the figure? If you use Paintshop Pro 7 or better
and 'convert' the photo into black-white scale than add yellow resp lilac
(two sets of photos) color scale (from white to yellow resp from white to
lilac) you probably will have a better view of the figure. Looks like one of
the other Wales figures. Have the photo of that one somewhere but in a book.
Haven't had time looking.
Guess it's too late to do it today. Been up since 6 and travelled 280 km
today. A bit tired.
Best
Inger E
Tedd Jacobs
pop quiz:
who pioneered the use of aerial photography in archaeology and when?
--
I say to the party hacks and bourgeois toadies, "a plague on both your
houses," and to get on with the business of seeking truth, wherever the
search may lead.
Inger-Eleonora
"Tedd Jacobs" <TJa...@mail.boisestate.edu> wrote in message
news:ecdvq...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>
> pop quiz:
>
> who pioneered the use of aerial photography in archaeology and when?
Don't know who, even if I have an idea of a person who I know worked with
this back in 60's trying from new instrumental and analysing technique to
have archaeologists see the advantage in using it. But the instrumental and
analysing technique at that stage was a 'daughter'-line from a military
technique to analyse what was on ground and up to 10 meters under
ground(later deeper)......
Inger E
Kendall K. Down
Roger Bagula <rlba...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> If Toby Driver were really good,
> he would probably be using infared and doing his work at night.
> He wouldn't have to wait for a draught that way, I think.
> It is the insolating effects of the underground stone that causes the
> differences in vegitation ( differences in heat content... stone
> compared to soil).
No it isn't. It's the difference in the depth of soil and consequent
retention of moisture. Plants in disturbed soil (as in a ditch surrounding a
hill fort) can grow deeper roots and therefore are a darker green than those
on shallow soil. There are also plants which grow selectively on disturbed
soil and not elsewhere.
Neither need infra-red photography.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
Alan Crozier
>
> who pioneered the use of aerial photography in archaeology and when?
Do you know the answer and just want to test us?
Anyway, I can't give you a name, but there is information to be had in a
book called Flights into Yesterday (1969), by Leo Deuel.
The realization that new archaeological information could be obtained
from the air goes back to the early days of ballooning.
In Sweden the first systematic work in aerial archaeology was done by a
man called Esse Ericsson in the 1950s and 60s.
http://www.ikfoundation.org/shop/history-from-the-air-en.html
Alan
--
Alan Crozier
Lund
Sweden
Alan Crozier
ews:UwpGg.13944$E02....@newsb.telia.net...
For Roger's benefit. If you don't understand Swedish, it might help to
know that "mark-radar" is ground radar.
And "resp" means "and".
> Looks like one of
> the other Wales figures. Have the photo of that one somewhere but in a
book.
> Haven't had time looking.
> Guess it's too late to do it today. Been up since 6 and travelled 280
km
> today. A bit tired.
Inger, how was the symposium in Götene?
Inger-Eleonora
"Alan Crozier" <name1...@telia.com> wrote in message
news:ptxGg.13970$E02....@newsb.telia.net...
Didn't go. Have had more problems with my right foot than you want to know
about, back to my ortoped-doctor today.....
never signed me up for the symposium when I heard of the problem to find a
for me suitable place to stay without having to walk too long. Have had a
lot of other things to do as well. More about that privately.
Inger E
Uwe Müller
"Kendall K. Down" <webm...@diggingsonline.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:b376f8594...@diggingsonline.com...
> In message <44E9E13D...@sbcglobal.net>
> Roger Bagula <rlba...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > If Toby Driver were really good,
> > he would probably be using infared and doing his work at night.
> > He wouldn't have to wait for a draught that way, I think.
> > It is the insolating effects of the underground stone that causes the
> > differences in vegitation ( differences in heat content... stone
> > compared to soil).
>
> No it isn't. It's the difference in the depth of soil and consequent
> retention of moisture. Plants in disturbed soil (as in a ditch surrounding
a
> hill fort) can grow deeper roots and therefore are a darker green than
those
> on shallow soil. There are also plants which grow selectively on disturbed
> soil and not elsewhere.
>
> Neither need infra-red photography.
There are a number of features that can be detected from above even though
on ground level, there is nothing to be seen.
There are features which inhibit or decrease plant growth. The filling of a
ditch or a pit will provide more nourishment and keep moisture, so plants
above will grow earlier and taller. With light falling in at an angle, the
shadows can be seen quite clearly. The same thing goes with stone walling,
only with an adverse effect, there is less nourishment and less moisture in
the ground. So plants above the walls will be smaller, so there will be
shadows of surrounding plants in slanting lights.
The same goes for elevations from walls or depressions from ditches, in
areas that have not been plowed regularly.
Subterran stone walling will store heat, so you should be able to detect
them after night fall with infrared. The first little bit of snow (if there
is only a little bit) will not keep above buried stone walling, because its
temperature is higher than that of the surrounding earth. In spring these
areas will be free of snow first, because the stones store heat from the
sun.
Moisture is a good marker in summer, when grass above ditches is still
green, while the surrounding areas are already turning yellow. Buried stone
or brick structures will make the plants above them wither earlier, creating
yellow lines in a green field.
There are also differences in what sort of plants grow on top of subterran
structures, a slavic castle near here was discovered because the soil above
the ditch were settled by thistles in a field of grass.
This ditch has been discovered while taking photos from a ladder from the
Fire Brigade, I've seen such marks from a second floor balcony, a little
hill, the top of an excavator.
Aerial photographies have increased the number of archaeologic sites
enormously, by a factor of 5-7 in some areas. But to be succesfull it has to
be done regularly, early in the morning or before sunset, after the first
light snow, and much depends on the crops planted/plants growing above.
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Peter Alaca
> pop quiz:
>
> who pioneered the use of aerial photography in archaeology and when?
The Infra Red Baron in WW I?
--
p.a.
prd
"Tedd Jacobs" <TJa...@mail.boisestate.edu> . . . :
>
> pop quiz:
>
> who pioneered the use of aerial photography in archaeology and
> when?
Orville Wright 1906.
Uwe Müller
"Tedd Jacobs" <TJa...@mail.boisestate.edu> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:ecdvq...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>
> pop quiz:
>
> who pioneered the use of aerial photography in archaeology and when?
>
"The first aerial photograph of Stonehenge was taken from a military balloon
in 1906, ..." by Lt. Sharp, http://aarg.univie.ac.at/ an english site
"Aerial archaeology was probably born in Syria, about 1925, with the works
of a French soldier, Reverend Pčre Poidebard." meaning regular and
intentional flights http://www.archaero.com/archeo32.html a french site
" Advances in airplane and camera technology since 1903 took aerial
archaeology to new heights, ..." pointing at the Wright brothers
http://www.nmia.com/~jaybird/AANewsletter/WhatIsAAPage.html an american site
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Tedd Jacobs
"Tedd Jacobs" wrote...
>
> pop quiz:
>
> who pioneered the use of aerial photography in archaeology and when?
>
O. G. S. Crawford, 1922.
Roger Bagula
" The English Patient":
the Hungarian Baron...
Roger Bagula
I don't think anyone has applied Mössbauer but Raman has been applied
to archeology:
http://epsc.wustl.edu/haskin-group/Raman/overview.htm
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1:83260765/Raman+microscopy+in+art+and+archaeology~C~+Illumination+of+historical+mysteries+in+rock+art+and+frescoes~R~~R~~R~~R~.html?refid=ency_botnm
Raman microscopy in art and archaeology: Illumination of historical
mysteries in rock art and frescoes. (Raman).(Statistical Data Included)
The scientific study of works of art and the materials used in their
creation has received impetus with the development of nondestructive
microsampling analytical techniques and an increasing awareness on the
part of art historians, museum conservators, and scientists of the
importance of characterization for the attribution of the historical
period and genuineness of an artifact. Useful information about ancient
technologies and methods used in the construction of works of art is now
forthcoming; in particular, Raman spectroscopists are realizing the
challenge in the analytical ..
http://www.springer.com/west/home/generic/order?SGWID=4-40110-22-49643984-0
Raman Spectroscopy in Archaeology and Art History
Edwards, H G M; Chalmers, J M (Eds.)
2005, XXII, 508 p., Hardcover
ISBN: 0-85404-522-8
Table of contents
Section I. Introduction; Introduction to Raman Spectroscopy; Practical
Raman Spectroscopy and Complementary Techniques; Section II. Dyes and
Pigments: Overview: Dyes and Pigments; Case Study: Prehistoric Art; Case
Study: Painters and Decorators: Raman Spectroscopic Studies of Five
Romano-British Villas and The Domis Coiedii at Suasa, Italy; Case Study:
Xth Century Manuscript Beato de Valcavdo; Case Study: Micro-Raman and
GC-MS of Frescoes; Case Study: Field and in situ identification of
pigments in works of art by micro-Raman and visible-NIR reflectance
spectroscopies: a polychrome 16th-century Italian fresco and
black-coloured Etruscan pottery; Case Study: The Analysis of Dyes by
SERRS; Section III. Artefacts; Overview; Case Study: Raman spectroscopy:
a powerful tool for the analysis of museum objects; Case Study: Glasses,
Glazes and Ceramics - Recognition of the Ancient Technology from the
Raman Spectra; Case Study: Fifteen Years of Artefacts Investigations by
Raman Microscopy; Case Study: Phase Analysis of Third Millenium Syrian
Ceramics by Micro-Raman Spectroscopy; Secion IV. Biological Materials
and Degradation; Overview: Biological Materials and Degradation; Case
Study: Raman Spectroscopy and Archaeological Biomaterials: Ochred Bones
and Resin Tembetá; Case Study: Chinese Scrolls and other Fluorescent
samples; Case Study: Ancient Textile Fibres; Case Study: Application of
Raman spectroscopy to corrosion products; Overview: Jewellery and
precious stones; Case Study: Diamonds, Gemstones and Pearls: From the
Past to the Present; Case Study: Analysis of nephrite jade using Raman
microscopy and X-ray fluorescence spectroscopy; Case Study: Mesoamerican
Jade; Section VI. Databases; Database of 74 Raman Spectra of Standard
Minerals of relevance to metal corrosion, stained glass or Prehistoric
rock art; Section VII. Summary; Summary and Future.
Raman Spectroscopy in Archaeology and Art History highlights the
important contributions Raman spectroscopy makes as a non-destructive
method for characterising the chemical composition and structure and in
determining the provenance and authenticity of objects of archaeological
and historical importance. It brings together studies from diverse areas
and represents the first dedicated work on use of this technique in this
increasingly important field.
Coverage includes: An Introduction to Raman Spectroscopy, including
practical aspects of Raman spectroscopy and complementary techniques;
Dyes and Pigments; Artefacts; Biological Materials and Degradation;
Jewellery and Precious Stones. The book contains a broad selection of
real-world examples in the form of case studies to provide the reader
with a true appreciation of the procedures that need to be invoked to
derive spectroscopic information from some of the most challenging
specimens and systems. Colour illustrations of objects of investigation
and a database of 72 Raman spectra of relevant minerals are included.
With its extensive examples, Raman Spectroscopy in Archaeology and Art
History will be of particular interest to specialists in the field,
including researchers and scientific/conservation staff in museums.
Academics will find it an invaluable reference to the use of Raman
spectroscopy.
Written for:
Specialists in the field, including researchers and
scientific/conservation staff in museums, academics will find it an
invaluable reference to the use of Raman spectroscopy
Roger Bagula
>In message <44E9E13D...@sbcglobal.net>
> Roger Bagula <rlba...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>If Toby Driver were really good,
>>he would probably be using infared and doing his work at night.
>>He wouldn't have to wait for a draught that way, I think.
>>It is the insolating effects of the underground stone that causes the
>>differences in vegitation ( differences in heat content... stone
>>compared to soil).
>>
>>
>
>No it isn't. It's the difference in the depth of soil and consequent
>retention of moisture. Plants in disturbed soil (as in a ditch surrounding a
>hill fort) can grow deeper roots and therefore are a darker green than those
>on shallow soil. There are also plants which grow selectively on disturbed
>soil and not elsewhere.
>
>Neither need infra-red photography.
>
>Ken Down
>
>
>
Ken Down
http://www.reference-wordsmith.com/cgi-bin/lookup.cgi?exact=1&terms=sedimentation
sedimentation
SYNONYM: sedimentary petrology, sedimentology
CATEGORY: geology
DEFINITION: The process of deposition of a solid material from a
state of suspension or solution in a fluid (air, water, ice). It also
includes deposits from glacial ice and those materials collected by
gravity, or accumulations of rock debris at the base of cliffs.
Depending on the conditions of sedimentation, archaeological deposits
may be buried intact or with redistribution of the pre-existing material.
All righty then, now,
Let see ?
If the sedimentation rate is just 0.01 inches per year for 6000 years in
an open relatively flat field
that comes to?
0.01*6000=60 inches
which is 5 feet.
So the disturbed soil is over 5 feet thick,
Probably more like 8 to 12 feet with the rain rate being what is is
there in Wales.
So it is much more likely that turf with a depth of not over ten inches
in root length is not seeing 6000 year old disturbed soil?
Where would you place for a meter and a half square test hole over
picture number two or four ?
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41975000/jpg/_41975464_causestath_other_203jp.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41975000/jpg/_41975476_tembpleaber_other_416.jpg
Since they are both double rings and no gaps appear to show?
Since they are made by a people who had mid-summer and mid -winter festivals
and they were said to want the light right at those times of year?
Roger Bagula
Kendall K. Down
"Uwe Müller" <uwemu...@go4more.de> wrote:
> Subterran stone walling will store heat, so you should be able to detect
> them after night fall with infrared. The first little bit of snow (if there
> is only a little bit) will not keep above buried stone walling, because its
> temperature is higher than that of the surrounding earth. In spring these
> areas will be free of snow first, because the stones store heat from the
> sun.
Indeed, but in the first place you don't need a drought to do that and in
the second, drought conditions where both day and night are hot, are not the
best times for infrared photography. What you want is the situation where
the ground surface is cooler than the buried stones to which you refer.
Peter Alaca
> Darn and I thought it was
> " The English Patient":
> the Hungarian Baron...
> Tedd Jacobs wrote:
I didn't know Ted wrote that.
--
p.a.
IEJ
When I was working as an executive secretary at Östergötlands länsmuseum in
Linköping, I happened to be at sites when test holes were to be made. Never
saw so small testholes at all. Are you telling me that that size is the
normal one in England? US?
The normal procedure were to take away the upper soil of disturbed
earthlayers at areas at least 1 x 5 meter. And most of those testholes were
larger.
Anyhow if I from what I was told by the archaeologists who looked at
airphotos, was to choose a specificly interesting place I would have chosen
to go right 8 cm on top and down approx 8 cm on the photo and chosen that
place or 6 cm right bottom and 2,8 up.
But of course that's only from what I have been told to look for.... :-)
>
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41975000/jpg/_41975476_tembpleaber_oth
er_416.jpg
> Since they are both double rings and no gaps appear to show?
> Since they are made by a people who had mid-summer and mid -winter
festivals
> and they were said to want the light right at those times of year?
> Roger Bagula
Inger E
Roger Bagula
>
>>
>>
>>
>http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41975000/jpg/_41975464_causestath_othe
>r_203jp.jpg
>
>When I was working as an executive secretary at Östergötlands länsmuseum in
>Linköping, I happened to be at sites when test holes were to be made. Never
>saw so small testholes at all. Are you telling me that that size is the
>normal one in England? US?
>
>The normal procedure were to take away the upper soil of disturbed
>earthlayers at areas at least 1 x 5 meter. And most of those testholes were
>larger.
>
>Anyhow if I from what I was told by the archaeologists who looked at
>airphotos, was to choose a specificly interesting place I would have chosen
>to go right 8 cm on top and down approx 8 cm on the photo and chosen that
>place or 6 cm right bottom and 2,8 up.
>But of course that's only from what I have been told to look for.... :-)
>
>
>http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41975000/jpg/_41975476_tembpleaber_oth
>er_416.jpg
>
>
>
>
>Inger E
>
>
>
>
You must be getting a bigger photograph or have a much smaller resolution
screen. My comes up 5cm by5cm.
Anyway to find the sacrifice alter you need to find the rising sun
directions.
It was a bad question unless you know the picture has up as north.
Then you have to know the location of Wales as being about 1/2 hour
after English mean time ( when the sun come up and where in the east)
so that it lights the alter at first light.
That would be where the window in the two rings would be placed.
This idea goes back to an very old scientific American article about
Stone Henge...
Also the windows have to be spaced so one lights mid-winter and one
lights mid-summer.
It was proably a standard priest tricvk.
Roger Bagula
Roger Bagula
which says that 200 have been found in Europe and only 20 excavated:
( this one does come in at very near 6000 years old)
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?SID=mail&articleID=000CDCCF-1783-1FA8-95ED83414B7F0000&chanID=sa004
IN FOCUS
December 08, 2003
ARCHAEO-ASTRONOMY
Circles for Space
German "Stonehenge" marks oldest observatory
By Madhusree Mukerjee
>
>
>
> Although aerial surveys have demarcated 200-odd similar circles
> scattered across Europe, the Goseck structure is the oldest and best
> preserved of the 20 excavated thus far, and it is the first circle
> whose function is evident. Though called the German Stonehenge, it
> precedes Stonehenge by at least two millennia. The linear designs on
> pottery shards found within the compound suggest that the observatory
> was built in 4900 B.C.
>
> Perhaps the observatory's most curious aspect is that the roughly
> 100-degree span between the solstice gates corresponds with an angle
> on a bronze disk unearthed on a hilltop 25 kilometers away, near the
> town of Nebra. The Nebra disk, measuring 32 centimeters in diameter,
> dates from 1600 B.C. and is the oldest realistic representation of the
> cosmos yet found. It depicts a crescent moon, a circle that was
> probably the full moon, a cluster of seven stars interpreted to
> represent the Pleiades, scattered other stars and three arcs, all
> picked out in gold leaf from a background rendered
> violet-blue--apparently by applying rotten eggs.
>
> The two opposing arcs, which run along the rim, are 82.5 degrees long
> and mark the sun's positions at sunrise and sunset. The lowest points
> of the two arcs are 97.5 degrees apart, signifying sunrise and sunset
> on the winter solstice in central Germany at the time. Likewise, the
> uppermost points mark sunrise and sunset on the summer solstice. The
> sun's position at solstice has shifted slightly over the past
> millennia, notes Wolfhard Schlosser of the Ruhr University in Bochum,
> so that the angle between sunrise and sunset is now slightly farther
> apart than when the Nebra disk and the Goseck circle were made (by 1.6
> and 2.8 degrees, respectively).
>
Roger Bagula
>
>
>
>
Nebra Sky Disc
Restored Nebra Sky Disc
Mittelberg: a 252m hill in the Ziegelroda Forest 180km south-west of
Berlin, Germany
Archaeologists are investigating a site atop the Mittelberg where a 32cm
bronze-and-gold disc was found.
'The oldest concrete representation of the stars in the world'
The disc maps 32 stars, including the Pleiades, as they appear in
reference to a local mountain on the horizon, the Brocken. Since the
Mittelberg is near the German town of Nebra, the star map has been
dubbed the "Nebra Disc."
The researchers suggest that the artifact, which was discovered within a
pit inside a Bronze Age ringwall, is around 3600 years old and claim it
to be the "oldest concrete representation of the stars in the world."
Archaeologists assume that Mittelberg served as a type of observatory
for the peoples of that time.
The disc 32cm in diameter shows a golden ship, Sun, Moon and stars as
well as the constellation Pleiades just before the eclipse. Astronomers
have confirmed that the sky map matches the latitude of the place where
it was found.
As seen from the Mittelberg, the sun sets every June 22 behind the
Brocken, the highest mountain in northern Germany. The Brocken is in a
direct line of sight on a clear day, 85km to the north-west.
The archaeological dig has gone down about half a metre into the soil,
leaving loose stone walls standing. The site was once surrounded by
wooden palisades and a complex of defensive ditches.
Wolfhard Schlosser, an expert in ancient astronomy at the University of
the Ruhr, states "The ringwall was built in such a way that the sun
seemed to disappear every equinox behind the Brocken."
Experts believe the map and site formed an observatory, which was used
to set the calendar for planting and harvesting crops.
The nearby forest contains perhaps 1000 barrows or princely graves from
the period, but little else is known about the lost people, who are not
mentioned in ancient Greek or other Mediterranean sources.
The culture of people from the Bronze Era was lost in the course of time
and only material evidence of their existence is saved - the places
where settlements, graves and treasure used to be. Scientists claim that
it is impossible to assume which language they used.
Geographic representation
Commented disc
Last updated: December 4, 2002 by John (Hans) Pohland
IEJ
> IEJ wrote:
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41975000/jpg/_41975464_causestath_oth
e
> >r_203jp.jpg
> >
> >When I was working as an executive secretary at Östergötlands länsmuseum
in
> >Linköping, I happened to be at sites when test holes were to be made.
Never
> >saw so small testholes at all. Are you telling me that that size is the
> >normal one in England? US?
> >
> >The normal procedure were to take away the upper soil of disturbed
> >earthlayers at areas at least 1 x 5 meter. And most of those testholes
were
> >larger.
> >
> >Anyhow if I from what I was told by the archaeologists who looked at
> >airphotos, was to choose a specificly interesting place I would have
chosen
> >to go right 8 cm on top and down approx 8 cm on the photo and chosen that
> >place or 6 cm right bottom and 2,8 up.
> >But of course that's only from what I have been told to look for.... :-)
> >
> >
>
>http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41975000/jpg/_41975476_tembpleaber_ot
h
> >er_416.jpg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Inger E
> >
> >
> >
> >
> You must be getting a bigger photograph or have a much smaller resolution
> screen. My comes up 5cm by5cm.
Could have had that as a third choice.
> Anyway to find the sacrifice alter you need to find the rising sun
> directions.
I am not familiar with your knowledge of reading photos. Anyhow it's
possible to establish a lot more than what people 'normally' believe to be
possible. Of course one usually has knowledge of camera, the
optic-'positions' chosen, type of film etc, but still you can from a photo
if you have a good program or have a good copy of the photo in most cases
establish:
* north and south direction. (That one is usually easy but the photos we
discuss has a bit too bad dissolution for me to do it from a screen as old
as mine)
* When during the year the photo is taken (of course it's easier to look
closer on the growth and details etc)
Sometimes it's even possible to decide when during a month it's taken.
* the most skilled person can establish the time during day.
* from the second '*' follows that it's possible using correct methods to
establish what's growing on ground, type of soil(s)
* from second and forth '*' it's not only possible but relatively easy to
with a high degree of certainty predict what can be found up to 7-8 meters
under ground. For more specific information one would have more than one
photo. Pretty much the seasons suggested by Uwe.
* You can observe the difference of 3 (sometimes more) layers of remains
from the past.
Well it's a lot of more information one can 'read' and get from a photo, but
classified information is not to be discussed in open groups.
> It was a bad question unless you know the picture has up as north.
> Then you have to know the location of Wales as being about 1/2 hour
> after English mean time ( when the sun come up and where in the east)
> so that it lights the alter at first light.
?????
> That would be where the window in the two rings would be placed.
> This idea goes back to an very old scientific American article about
> Stone Henge...
> Also the windows have to be spaced so one lights mid-winter and one
> lights mid-summer.
> It was proably a standard priest tricvk.
> Roger Bagula
I am very well aware of the mid-winter and mid-summer lights, or should I
say where the light falls the first 3-6 minuits after sunrise. That's not a
problem to establish that. One doesn't have to do so much calculations as
some seem to believe. Never had any problem knowing exactly where the sun
rises those days no matter where I have been.
Inger E
Roger Bagula
> http://www3.sympatico.ca/hpohland/docs/Nebra.html
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Nebra Sky Disc
> Restored Nebra Sky Disc
>
>
Let's look at the artifact without where it was found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloisonn%C3%A9
> *Cloisonné* is a multi-step enamel
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitreous_enamel> process used to produce
> jewelry <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewelry>, vases
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vase>, and other decorative items.
> Objects produced by this process are also called
> /cloisonné/.Cloisonneis a unique art form that originated in Beijing
> during the Yuan Dynasty (1271 - 1368).
So we have an object that uses a science way beyond what was thought
known in even Babylon
in this time period by a technique not pioneered by the best porcelain
makers until 5000 years later?
http://www.bible-history.com/links.php?cat=5&sub=75&cat_name=Ancient+Near+East&subcat_name=Art+%26+Images+2
A torque pair with lion-head terminals. Some of the cloisonne inlays
survive. Achaemenid grave at Susa, 4th c. B.C. (Paris: Louvre). 20 cm.
[Achæmids and Medes] [images] [Achæmenid metal working and coinage]
http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ugk/jewelry01.jpg
So the only known similar artifact in the same tome period is from:
> Achaemenid grave at Susa, 4th c. B.C.
That would also fit the state of astronomical knowledge.
So we have a middle easterner in the middle of Germany
acting as a priest of a new and spreading religion.
It seems logical to me.
Chemical analysis of the copper, gold and cloisonnes paint
should be able to give an idea of where the object was actually
manufactured.
Roger Bagula
>
>Inger E
><skip the rest>, since I am not sure what to say about them before we
>'settled' the part above.
>
>
>
>
I never said I was an archaeologist.
I'm a Physical -Inorganic chemist by training.
I actually like astronomy and history,too.
So I've learned things over the years.
1.5 meter hole is about the minimum
you can get to hold up to a depth of up to 12 feet.
Without mine like shoring...
IEJ
> IEJ wrote:
>
> >
> >Inger E
> ><skip the rest>, since I am not sure what to say about them before we
> >'settled' the part above.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> I never said I was an archaeologist.
> I'm a Physical -Inorganic chemist by training.
> I actually like astronomy and history,too.
Astronomy is very interesting when one read about what the 'Old'
civilizations knew and compare that with how they used it. BUT..... while I
am interesting reading about it, I have a hard time following and
understanding the Astronomy part. Especially how well they could follow the
star constellations etc and draw conclusions from that. My problem here is
mainly that I can't understand how it was possible to give so precise
predictions and observe so exact details without having a lot of mathematic
knowledge and skill.....
> So I've learned things over the years.
> 1.5 meter hole is about the minimum
> you can get to hold up to a depth of up to 12 feet.
I belive you are right.
> Without mine like shoring...
Without that or drills of modern types....
Inger E
Peter Alaca
> "Roger Bagula" wrote
>> You must be getting a bigger photograph or have a much smaller
>> resolution screen. My comes up 5cm by5cm.
> Could have had that as a third choice.
>> Anyway to find the sacrifice alter you need to find the rising sun
>> directions.
> I am not familiar with your knowledge of reading photos.
Mm, I remember you very recently saying
you are an expert, studie and all.
Don't say you were lying then.
> Anyhow it's possible to establish a lot more than what people
> 'normally'
> believe to be possible. Of course one usually has knowledge of camera,
> the optic-'positions' chosen, type of film etc, but still you can from
> a
> photo if you have a good program or have a good copy of the photo in
> most cases establish:
>
> * north and south direction. (That one is usually easy
No it isn't, unless you know the location
> but the photos we discuss has a bit too bad dissolution for
> me to do it from a screen as old as mine)
Nothing to do with dissolution. Oh, perhaps you
mean resolution? Nothing to do with that either
> * When during the year the photo is taken
If you now nothinh of the location, usualy all you can tell
is summer or winteri
> (of course it's easier to look closer on the growth and details etc)
What do you mean?
> Sometimes it's even possible to decide when during a month it's taken.
Only if you are familiar with the location
> * the most skilled person can establish the time during day.
Only if you are familiar with the location.
But all these things are extremely easy to figure out
(for a skilled person that is) because on official aerial
photos all that information, and much more, is printed
(and/or written) on the rim of the photos.
> * from the second '*' follows that it's possible using correct
> methods to establish what's growing on ground, type of soil(s)
Again, only if you know what you are looking at.
You need more than a photo. You need to know
the type of soil and much more
> * from second and forth '*' it's not only possible but relatively
> easy to with a high degree of certainty predict what can be found up
> to 7-8 meters under ground.
Predict? No. Only see, and interpret what you
see with the knowledge you have.
> For more specific information one would have more than one photo.
Yes, but then you also can combine it
with the results excavationre and geophysics
> Pretty much the seasons suggested by Uwe.
> * You can observe the difference of 3 (sometimes more) layers of
> remains from the past.
> Well it's a lot of more information one can 'read' and get from a
> photo, but classified information is not to be discussed in open
> groups.
>
If you refer to asterisks as "'first '*'", etc. why
then did't you use numbers in the first place?
Do you know the nice little book (64pp) by the
late Derrick Riley (1982), in 1996 revised by
Robert Bewley "Aerial Archaeology in Britain"?
It is published by Shire Publications, as Shire
Archaeology 22
Recommended.
BTW, did I ever tell you that interpreting and
comparing aerial photographs is part of my
paid and unpaid work? Yes, I thought so.
--
p.a.
Roger Bagula
>
>>>
>> Nebra Sky Disc
>>
>
> Chemical analysis of the copper, gold and cloisonnes paint
> should be able to give an idea of where the object was actually
> manufactured.
I doubt anybody at Cambridge would have guts enough to claim this disk
might have had middle eastern origin...
They would rather let it die as a mystery disk filed in a museum drawer.
Like a lot of the pre-Clovis evidence in American museums for the last
40 years?
Cynical comment from experience with the academic type.
Eric Stevens
Why is it that such ancient astyronomical devices are nearly always
held to have been built to enable the construction of calendars used
only for planting crops? Is it that no better purpose can be conceived
for them?
I have always wondered why such precise calendars should be required
for agricultural purposes except in a few special cases.
>
>The nearby forest contains perhaps 1000 barrows or princely graves from
>the period, but little else is known about the lost people, who are not
>mentioned in ancient Greek or other Mediterranean sources.
>The culture of people from the Bronze Era was lost in the course of time
>and only material evidence of their existence is saved - the places
>where settlements, graves and treasure used to be. Scientists claim that
>it is impossible to assume which language they used.
>
>Geographic representation
>
>Commented disc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Last updated: December 4, 2002 by John (Hans) Pohland
Eric Stevens
Peter Alaca
>Roger Bagula wrote:
>> Experts believe the map and site formed an observatory, which was
>> used to set the calendar for planting and harvesting crops.
> Why is it that such ancient astyronomical devices are nearly always
> held to have been built to enable the construction of calendars used
> only for planting crops? Is it that no better purpose can be conceived
> for them?
>
> I have always wondered why such precise calendars should be required
> for agricultural purposes except in a few special cases.
Good point.
Why is there never e.g. a megalithic 'contraceptive'
calender found?
--
p.a.
Eric Stevens
wrote:
But seriously - people use calendars for all kinds of reasons. Why
always the focus on agriculture? Is there any evidence to support
this?
Eric Stevens
Peter Alaca
> "Peter Alaca" wrote:
>> Eric Stevens wrote:
>>> Roger Bagula wrote:
>>>> Experts believe the map and site formed an observatory, which was
>>>> used to set the calendar for planting and harvesting crops.
>>> Why is it that such ancient astyronomical devices are nearly always
>>> held to have been built to enable the construction of calendars used
>>> only for planting crops? Is it that no better purpose can be
>>> conceived for them?
>>>
>>> I have always wondered why such precise calendars should be required
>>> for agricultural purposes except in a few special cases.
>> Good point.
>> Why is there never e.g. a megalithic 'contraceptive'
>> calender found?
> But seriously - people use calendars for all kinds of reasons. Why
> always the focus on agriculture? Is there any evidence to support
> this?
I don't think so. It is more the most likely reason
we can think of. I mean, we can't imagin that
bronze age man was realy interested in the birthday
of his mother in law, or in the period of his wife, do we?
--
p.a.
VtSkier
Here's a thought, and I have absolutely nothing to back it
up except a recent reading of 'Guns, Germs and Steel'
What is the single most important event, behavior, activity,
whatever, that makes the Neolithic lifestyle possible? That's
neolithic with settled villages, a growing population, time
to polish your stone tools and so on.
I believe it is agriculture. By the time calenders are invented,
groups have probably organized themselves into some sort of
hierarchical society with at least a headman and a shaman of
some sort who keeps track of the times to do things. Since all
is based on agriculture and the leaders want to keep their jobs,
it stands to reason that the astronomical events are important
and seeming to prophesy when they will happen seems like a
magical thing to the hoi poloi of the times and if the leaders
can make the astronomical events really grand, they stand a
better chance of being recognized as special and more able to
keep their jobs.
Well, it makes some sense to me anyway.
Uwe Müller
"Roger Bagula" <rlba...@sbcglobal.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:44EC74D0...@sbcglobal.net...
> Roger Bagula wrote:
>
> > http://www3.sympatico.ca/hpohland/docs/Nebra.html
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > Nebra Sky Disc
> > Restored Nebra Sky Disc
> >
> >
> Let's look at the artifact without where it was found:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloisonn%C3%A9
>
> > *Cloisonné* is a multi-step enamel
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitreous_enamel> process used to produce
> > jewelry <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewelry>, vases
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vase>, and other decorative items.
> > Objects produced by this process are also called
> > /cloisonné/.Cloisonneis a unique art form that originated in Beijing
> > during the Yuan Dynasty (1271 - 1368).
>
> So we have an object that uses a science way beyond what was thought
> known in even Babylon
Note the difference between 'what was known' and ' what was thought to be
known'
> in this time period by a technique not pioneered by the best porcelain
> makers until 5000 years later?
>
>
http://www.bible-history.com/links.php?cat=5&sub=75&cat_name=Ancient+Near+East&subcat_name=Art+%26+Images+2
> A torque pair with lion-head terminals. Some of the cloisonne inlays
> survive. Achaemenid grave at Susa, 4th c. B.C. (Paris: Louvre). 20 cm.
> [Achæmids and Medes] [images] [Achæmenid metal working and coinage]
> http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ugk/jewelry01.jpg
>
> So the only known similar artifact in the same tome period is from:
>
> > Achaemenid grave at Susa, 4th c. B.C.
The Nebra disc carries no email inlays, and it is not decorated with
cloissonee. There are other objects even older that show metal decorations
on a metal base, for instance the famous Mycenean dagger showing hunting
scenes. Comparable north alpine stuff can be dated to the early bronze age
whle the Nebra disc is supposed to be from the middle Bronze Age.
>
>
> That would also fit the state of astronomical knowledge.
Astronomical knowledge was good enough in the Neolithic.
>
> So we have a middle easterner in the middle of Germany
> acting as a priest of a new and spreading religion.
No, it was just the documentation of something they knew for a long time.
But it is the first time such a documentationnhas been found.
>
> It seems logical to me.
> Chemical analysis of the copper, gold and cloisonnes paint
> should be able to give an idea of where the object was actually
> manufactured.
The analyses of the metals used points to a a north alpine source, probably
the Ore mountains. The Brocken is at the fringe of the tertiary mountain
range, called Ore mountains, Middle mountains etc. So the raw material was
at least local.
The Nebra disc was reworked, adding some decorations and removing others, so
there was no single production.
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Roger Bagula
>
>
>The analyses of the metals used points to a a north alpine source, probably
>the Ore mountains. The Brocken is at the fringe of the tertiary mountain
>range, called Ore mountains, Middle mountains etc. So the raw material was
>at least local.
>
>The Nebra disc was reworked, adding some decorations and removing others, so
>there was no single production.
>
>have fun
>
>Uwe Mueller
>
>
>
>
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1915398,00.html
Knowledge comes and goes:
The sky disc of Nebra was first discovered by treasure
huntersBildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der
Bildunterschrift: The sky disc of Nebra was first discovered by
treasure hunters
The Bronze Age astronomers would hold the Nebra clock against the sky
and observe the position of the celestial objects. The intercalary month
was inserted when what they saw in the sky corresponded to the map on
the disc they were holding in their hands. This happened every two to
three years.
But the German researchers also discovered that in the 400 years that
the disc was in use, its status had evolved. The perforations on the
edge of the object as well as a ship that was later added to the map
suggest that the knowledge about the lunar calendar's shortage of days
was lost along the way.
"That means, that in the end the disk became a cult object," Meller said.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebra_skydisk
According to an analysis of trace elements by x-ray fluorescence by E.
Pernicka, University of Freiberg, the copper originated at the
Mitterberg in Austria, while the gold is from the Carpathian Mountains.
Copper from Bottendorf in the immediate vicinity of Nebra has definitely
not been used. But few copper objects are found where they were
originally smelted.
If the disk is authentic then it may be argued that quantitative
astronomy in central Europe may possibly date back 3,600 years. Egyptian
representations of the sky are purely schematic at this time. The lack
of a secure archaeological context for the disk however, means that it
is difficult to accurately date or even authenticate it. It is unlike
any known artistic style from the period and has been described as a
fake by some archaeologists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uriel%27s_machine
Uriel's machine
The theory of Uriel's Machine is postulated in a book of the same name
by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas
The book supposes that ancient (pre-historic) European (and by extension
British) astronomers developed a stellar calendar. The author then
suggests that the Book of Enoch records that an archangel by the name of
Uriel warned Enoch about the impending flood and gave him instructions
for building a form of calendar so that crops could be re-planted. This
is then compared with the early roots of religion and archaeoastronomy
in Britain and suggests that Uriel was in fact a mortal 'astronomer
priest' from Britain who sought to spread his knowledge.
Roger Bagula
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> have fun
>>
>> Uwe Mueller
>>
>>
>>
>>
( I'm reposting this as it appears to have gotten lost somewhere)
Hey, I'm not always right,
but I have a pretty good track record.
I don't know everything,
but I don't call 6000 years of turf "recently disturbed" either...
Neolithic astronomy is only being discovered
... the only reason we know it was better than it probably should been
is Stone Henge and the Nebra disc.
There is also the pre-Roman Greek gear wheel device that was found
lately in a wreck
that indicates knowledge that was "unexpected".
( added : my spelling isn't always the best. And my spell checker isn't
either)
>
>
>
>
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>Eric Stevens wrote: news:egnpe2d149jt19eg2...@4ax.com
There is an alternative explanation - repeated cometary catastrophies.
See many of the abstracts at
http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/cambproc.htm ,
particularly http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/abstract/clube.htm
http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/abstract/masse.htm and
http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/abstract/steel2.htm
It would not take many cycles of Tunguska-like bombardments from space
for ancient peoples to start watching the night sky with forboding in
anticipation of the next episode. This possibility has not been
considered until recently as the knowledge of these events has been
lost - that is, if anyone ever understood them in the first place.
Eric Stevens
Roger Bagula
>
>
>Uwe Mueller
>
>
>
>
Uwe Müller
You seem to be a scientist. ( Despite of getting where the copper came
from wrong,
you didn't complain about my spelling).
In one of my egroups a fellow came up with an interesting question:
has any study of Pictish dna from burials been done?
My question was has any dna work been done
on the beaker folk from graves all over Europe compared to Pictish
and present Scottish dna?
I did a search and came up empty.
I certainly don't trust most of the other posters to give an honest
unbiased answer.
They tend to give web newsgroup archeology a bad name, LOL...
I've seen some really bad stuff in SAP in the last few years.
Personally I tend to reserve judgement long past normal time:
you never know who you might find on these newsgroups
and under what name.
In the astronomy news group their is this famous guy
( his name is a kind of asteriod naming system)
who gets loaded on by local nits.
It makes them look pretty rotten.
Michael Brown got his recognition:
the international astronomers voted his way on planets ( we now have 8)
and a mess of new planeoids that Brown has discovered along with Ceres
and Pluto.
In math the great Russian prover Dr. Perelman has refused the Fields medal.
It seems he was probably treated badly by establishment types when
he did his lecture series? They tend to complain about his hair and
fingernails. He has
some bone to pick at least...
Roger Bagula
Uwe Müller
> > Uwe Müller wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> have fun
> >>
> >> Uwe Mueller
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ( I'm reposting this as it appears to have gotten lost somewhere)
> Hey, I'm not always right,
> but I have a pretty good track record.
> I don't know everything,
> but I don't call 6000 years of turf "recently disturbed" either...
> Neolithic astronomy is only being discovered
There was a book out in the early 70s, by a guy called Thom studying British
henge monuments, with acurate plans and all.
> ... the only reason we know it was better than it probably should been
> is Stone Henge and the Nebra disc.
The idea, that henges and other mounuments were placed to enable precision
dating, or if you like, aligning a calendar to real time, is older. But it
took large scale excavations and precision mapping to prove it.
There are 'decorations' from the palaeolithic, that come in groups of 28 and
have been interpreted as moon calendars.
There are the famous gold hats, whose 'decorations' have also been
interpreted, as showing calendars, and enabling people to compare lunar and
solar calendar dates.
Wether you hunt migrating animals or plant crops, if you have a recurrent
annular phenomenon, that is important to your food supply, you either learn
to determine the right time, or you die.
> There is also the pre-Roman Greek gear wheel device that was found
> lately in a wreck
> that indicates knowledge that was "unexpected".
> ( added : my spelling isn't always the best. And my spell checker isn't
> either)
>
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Uwe Müller
> Uwe Müller wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Uwe Mueller
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Uwe Müller
> You seem to be a scientist. ( Despite of getting where the copper came
> from wrong,
> you didn't complain about my spelling).
>
> In one of my egroups a fellow came up with an interesting question:
> has any study of Pictish dna from burials been done?
Philip should be the person, to answer that question.
>
> My question was has any dna work been done
> on the beaker folk from graves all over Europe compared to Pictish
> and present Scottish dna?
>
> I did a search and came up empty.
There is one article I found, dealing with corded ware DNA,
Thiele K, Birkenbeil S, Huck T, Bruchhaus H (2003) DNA-Analyse an einer
Körperbestattung aus der Kultur der Schnurkeramik. In: May E und Benecke N
(Hrsg.) Beiträge zur Archäozoologie und Prähistorischen Anthropologie,
Bd.IV. Wais Verlag, Erlangen -Stuttgart, S. 218-222
You could also try
MEYER, E., M. WIESE, H. BRUCHHAUS, U. CLAUSSEN and A. KLEIN:
Extraction and amplification of authentic DNA from ancient human remains.
Forensic Science International. 113 (2000), 87 - 90.
COBB JA (2002): Ancient DNA recovered by a non-destructive method. Ancient
Biomolecules 4(4): 169-172.
or, on the net
http://tinyurl.com/fcn8h in English
(references and contact information given at the bottom of the page)
> snip >
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Roger Bagula
>
>
>have fun
>
>Uwe Mueller
>
>
>
>
Thanks I forwarded your info
to my egroups.
Roger Bagula
Roger Bagula
>
>
>The idea, that henges and other mounuments were placed to enable precision
>dating, or if you like, aligning a calendar to real time, is older. But it
>took large scale excavations and precision mapping to prove it.
>
>There are 'decorations' from the palaeolithic, that come in groups of 28 and
>have been interpreted as moon calendars.
>There are the famous gold hats, whose 'decorations' have also been
>interpreted, as showing calendars, and enabling people to compare lunar and
>solar calendar dates.
>Wether you hunt migrating animals or plant crops, if you have a recurrent
>annular phenomenon, that is important to your food supply, you either learn
>to determine the right time, or you die.
>
>
>
>
>
>Uwe Mueller
>
>
>
>
This same reasoning can be applied to coastal living in hurricane zones
under global warming.
There has certainly been a lot of academic chatter on that subject
and the government still won't come out and say ,
you probably ought to move from a certain zone
if you want to live safely.
It may come to either learning or dying.
It is pretty sure that although we have no record of written
information being passed on
that there must have been some oral tradition that allowed such buildings
to be placed in more than 200 verified locations
just in continental Europe ( without Britain and Ireland).
It is pretty much like Levis and rock music,
they conquered Europe
despite what the authorities said.
As much as any other characteristic ,
these churches characterize this people.
Roger Bagula
Roger Bagula
> *Blair urged to act over Stonehenge*
>
> Press Association
> *Friday August 25, 2006 2:08 AM*
>
> Prime Minister Tony Blair should intervene in the "disgrace" of the
> Stonehenge road saga, the RAC Foundation has said.
>
> The foundation favours putting the A303 at the Wiltshire site into a
> deep-bored tunnel - a £510 million option being re-examined by the
> Government on cost grounds.
>
> The foundation said it had written to Mr Blair, asking him to "cut
> through departmental inertia and get some action".
>
> A 1.3 mile tunnel was recommended after a public inquiry, but was put
> on hold by the Department for Transport because of the rising cost of
> the scheme.
>
> The foundation said a tunnel had substantial support across the
> archaeological spectrum, including English Heritage, the UK Committee
> of UNESCO, the Society of Antiquaries of London, the All-Party
> Parliamentary Group on Archaeology and archaeologists specifically
> concerned with Stonehenge.
>
> The tunnel option is also backed by local councils, local MPs, tourist
> bodies and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds.
>
> In his letter to Mr Blair, RAC Foundation chairman David Holmes said:
> "I am writing to appeal to you to resolve the indecision which is
> delaying a desperately needed improvement to a major route to the
> south west, and preventing the Stonehenge World Heritage Site from
> being restored to the setting which it deserves.
>
> "Only you have the authority to cut through departmental inertia and
> get some action."
>
> Mr Holmes also said: "Because the cost estimate for the scheme rose to
> £510 million, the Department for Transport insisted on re-examining
> some of the options which the public inquiry ruled out.
>
> "This is a backwards step, as any of these alternatives would have to
> be the subject of further consultation and full public inquiries. None
> could start for a decade or more."
>
> © Copyright Press Association Ltd 2006, All Rights Reserved.
>
Roger Bagula
ruined many priceless sites by too rapid and careless excavations.
http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/nwh_gfx_en/ART39580.html
ARCHAEOLOGISTS DIG UP MORE ICE AGE REMAINS AT CRESWELL CRAGS
By Graham Spicer 23/08/2006
aerial photo of a tree lined gorge with a lake at its end
Creswell Crags is a limestone gorge containing important evidence of Ice
Age life. Photo Creswell Heritage Trust
Archaeologists searching for clues about Ice Age artists have completed
a major excavation in Nottinghamshire, unearthing more than 1,000 finds.
A team from the University of Sheffield and The British Museum conducted
the dig in Church Hole cave at Creswell Crags between August 7 and 18
2006, the site of the only British discovery of Ice Age rock art.
The rock art discoveries, made in 2003 and 2004, are one of the most
important finds from the Palaeolithic era in Britain, dating back 13,000
years. Other rock art has been found in Britain, but was mostly made
some 8,000 years after the animal and bird images found at Creswell.
Archaeologists from Sheffield University and the British Museum
conducted the dig. Photo Creswell Heritage Trust
photo of several peope working on an archaeological dig
Church Hole had been excavated in the 19th century, and the latest dig
aimed to first explore the Victorian ‘spoil heap’ of discarded earth and
materials outside the cave.
Dr Paul Pettitt, leading the project, explained: “We know that Church
Hole was excavated very rapidly by the Victorians in the 1870s, and as a
result very little is known about the animals and people who inhabited
this cave during the Ice Age.”
The team have now been able to find the original Ice Age sediments below
and examine the bones and artefacts from that period and later. The
finds indicate that there has been activity at the gorge since the Ice
Age onwards with later remains from the Roman and medieval ages and beyond.
photo of several trays laid out on the grass with small objects in them
More than 1,000 artefacts were found. Photo Creswell Heritage Trust
Many bones of now extinct animals were found, like the leg bone of an
arctic hare (not found in Britain since the end of the last Ice Age) and
teeth of hyenas, which would have used Church Hole as a den some 25,000
years ago.
There was also a reindeer antler showing signs of being gnawed by
hyenas, a mammoth tooth, woolly rhino bones and evidence of human flint
working and tools.
A fragment of an awl, used for piercing animal hide and made from the
tibia of an arctic hare, was found to have regular scratch marks on it,
akin to the lines on a ruler. A similar find at Cheddar Gorge like this
one indicates that the people who lived at Creswell Crags may be of the
same group of hunter-gatherers.
This engraved rock is thought to be an early games board. Photo Creswell
Heritage Trust
photo of a rock with a series of square engravings in it
Another fascinating discovery was of a deeply engraved stone, thought to
be a ‘nine men’s morris’ board – a game of possibly Egyptian origin
popular in the Roman and medieval periods. Further analysis will be
carried out to date it to one of those periods.
There was one possible find of Ice Age art, which researchers will be
examining further, and the excavation will provide the archaeologists
with enough information to plan a further major dig at the site next year.
The last Ice Age started about 50,000 years ago and ended around 8,000
BC. Ice covered Britain as far south as Wales and the midlands and the
south was frozen tundra. Temperatures were about minus eight degrees
Celsius.
photo of a rock art stag
Some 80 items of rock art were found - the outlines of this stag have
been hightlighted. Photo Creswell Heritage Trust
More than 80 engraved figures were found in the soft limestone at Church
Hole during the 2003 and 2004 research. Subjects include horses, bison,
birds and stags and are similar to those found in continental Europe.
Creswell Crags is a Scheduled Ancient Monument and Site of Special
Scientific Interest and could also become a World Heritage Site.
Creswell Heritage Trust was also awarded £4.2m from the Heritage Lottery
Fund in January 2005 to create a new museum and education centre.
Eric Stevens
A problem is that the general climate/weather varies so much from year
to year that there is no great point in calendrical precision for
agricultural purposes.
>
>> There is also the pre-Roman Greek gear wheel device that was found
>> lately in a wreck
>> that indicates knowledge that was "unexpected".
>> ( added : my spelling isn't always the best. And my spell checker isn't
>> either)
>>
>
>have fun
>
>Uwe Mueller
>
Eric Stevens
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Müller) wrote:
> There was a book out in the early 70s, by a guy called Thom
> studying British henge monuments, with acurate plans and all.
A book called Circles and Standing Stones published in the 80s
is good non specialist introduction. It gives an overview of all
the major megalithic monuments in the British Isles plus some in
Brittany. It also covers the major theories like Thom's
Megalithic Yard and Inch.
Among other things stone fans and there possible use for eclipse
calculation are explained and the astronomical sight lines of a
lot of the monuments are explained. It also explains why the
circles are not actually circular but oval with the shape varying
by latitude. It is not a text book of course but it does provide
a good overview of the pluses and minuses of the various theories
Ken Young
Doug Weller
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
>In article <ecm3gr$8h3$1...@online.de>, uwemu...@go4more.de (Uwe
>Müller) wrote:
>
>> There was a book out in the early 70s, by a guy called Thom
>> studying British henge monuments, with acurate plans and all.
>
> A book called Circles and Standing Stones published in the 80s
>is good non specialist introduction. It gives an overview of all
>the major megalithic monuments in the British Isles plus some in
>Brittany. It also covers the major theories like Thom's
>Megalithic Yard and Inch.
I hope it doesn't just accept them uncritically.
>
> Among other things stone fans and there possible use for eclipse
>calculation are explained and the astronomical sight lines of a
>lot of the monuments are explained. It also explains why the
>circles are not actually circular but oval with the shape varying
>by latitude. It is not a text book of course but it does provide
>a good overview of the pluses and minuses of the various theories
>
Doug
--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
dwe...@ramtops.removethis.co.uk (Doug Weller) wrote:
> I hope it doesn't just accept them uncritically.
Not at all, it also mentions the Old Straight Track theory. It
goes into the arguments for both sides on everything mentioned.
Ken Young
deowll
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
news:0vuue25v7sla76psc...@4ax.com...
Some dates aren't that random. The leaves may be out but if you plant before
the last local date for frost you risk your crop and may need to replant if
you can. If you don't get the crop in the ground in time to mature before
the first possible frost in the fall you risk your crop. Crop failure meant
eating acorns if you could find them.
I don't know about you but that's plenty of motivation for me. I've eaten
acorns and living off them does not attract me besides sometimes there
weren't enough acorns.
Eric Stevens
wrote:
You are saying that in some parts of the world the timing of frosts
(or whatever) is so consistent that you can determine their likelihood
with clockwork precision. I don't think even the flooding of the Nile
was that consistent.
>
>I don't know about you but that's plenty of motivation for me. I've eaten
>acorns and living off them does not attract me besides sometimes there
>weren't enough acorns.
>
>>
>>>
>>>> There is also the pre-Roman Greek gear wheel device that was found
>>>> lately in a wreck
>>>> that indicates knowledge that was "unexpected".
>>>> ( added : my spelling isn't always the best. And my spell checker isn't
>>>> either)
>>>>
>>>
>>>have fun
>>>
>>>Uwe Mueller
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric Stevens
>
Eric Stevens
IEJ
Eric,
under other thread we have been discussing the rune-calender that came from
Olaus Magnus and his brother's family farm. That runecalender, as well as
the rune-stave that father Comanda had, as well as something we here in
Sweden called 'Bondepraktikan', all had relations to star/moon
constellations as well as time to do this and that during a farmer's year.
Then comes the old tradition to make the time when a comet or a special
starconstellation seen in sky to a very important 'exact' time to note down
and to calculate when next alike important observation,
solar or moon eclipse was expected to happen. This we can find from Rock
Carvings found around the world long before the written word told us about
such observations. There was a special need to know if you wanted to be
treated as a representant for the Gods. If a King's astronomists in old
days, before Iron Age in Old World before Modern Age in other parts of the
World, made wrong predictions due to uncertain or false data in
calculations, then that King might have lost his power..... we know of some
such 'situations'.
Inger E
Curt Emanuel
>>
> You are saying that in some parts of the world the timing of frosts
> (or whatever) is so consistent that you can determine their likelihood
> with clockwork precision. I don't think even the flooding of the Nile
> was that consistent.
Uh, you CAN determine the probability of frost with precision in any region
of the world with sufficient climactic data.
In the US frost free dates are generally given for 3 categories: 10%
probability, 50% (average) and 90%. If you plant at the 90% date your
chances of not having to replant are pretty good.
They use something called statistics, based on records of last spring frosts
to calculate these. They use the same general method to determine the
average date of the first frost (as well as first freeze) in the fall.
I believe you can find those at the National Ag Statistics Service for the
United States.
Curt Emanuel
Eric Stevens
I accept what you tell me. It's just that I am very doubtful of the
ability of the ancients to do that with meaningful precision using
'Stonehenge' type predictors.
Eric Stevens
Curt Emanuel
Well, my response was regarding your comment on how unpredictable local
climates are and how nobody could figure out when to plant crops.
Local climates aren't unpredictable. You can go by dates - and even prior to
calendars I imagine the concept of a planting or harvest moon was in vogue.
You can also base it on the appearance of migratory birds. You won't always
be right - this year in the Midwest a lot of replanting went on because a
severe cold stretch in early May resulted in seed rotting in the ground (and
a lot of dead swallows, particularly purple martins) but this was clearly an
aberration.
There have certainly been failed crops throughout history but those are also
the exception, not the rule.
I imagine a stonehenge type of predictor of when to plant could be pretty
accurate. You obviously give yourself a little wiggle room but if you can
plant 2 weeks after the average frost date, I imagine you'll be safe 9 years
out of 10.
Curt Emanuel
Uwe Müller
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:bko2f2tl808dbgtot...@4ax.com...
Classic Darwinism: anything that gives you an edge over your competitors
will work in your favour in the long run. Start with rough guides,
migratinng animals, flowering plants. 10% advantage. Note position of sun
during the favourite time, mark it for repeated viewing. 50 % Advantage. Use
a number of celestial objects, start counting days and making a calendar.
Bingo, even weeks of heavy cloud cover will not put you off your
agricultural dates.
have fun
Uwe Mueller
Tedd Jacobs
"Uwe Müller" wrote...
>
> "Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
[...]
>> I accept what you tell me. It's just that I am very doubtful of the
>> ability of the ancients to do that with meaningful precision using
>> 'Stonehenge' type predictors.
i'd rather not get into this knowing the dirrectional tendency of your
arguments. however, are you suggesting the 'ancients' did not have the
intellectual capacities to be able to recognize and understand the cyclical
nature of their own environment?
>
> Classic Darwinism: anything that gives you an edge over your competitors
> will work in your favour in the long run. Start with rough guides,
> migratinng animals, flowering plants. 10% advantage. Note position of sun
> during the favourite time, mark it for repeated viewing. 50 % Advantage.
> Use
> a number of celestial objects, start counting days and making a calendar.
> Bingo, even weeks of heavy cloud cover will not put you off your
> agricultural dates.
>
> have fun
basically.
;-)
Eric Stevens
<cema...@familyonline.com> wrote:
I never claimed that nobody could figure when to plant crops. This
discussion reminded me of my farmer uncle who used to plant much more
on the basis of the climate for the year and the feeling in his bones.
Admittently, there wouldn't be much variability from year to year but
there would be some. Most years he would have been in trouble one way
or another had he planted to the ticking of a solar calendar.
>
>Local climates aren't unpredictable.
That's not my experience.
>You can go by dates - and even prior to
>calendars I imagine the concept of a planting or harvest moon was in vogue.
>You can also base it on the appearance of migratory birds. You won't always
>be right - this year in the Midwest a lot of replanting went on because a
>severe cold stretch in early May resulted in seed rotting in the ground (and
>a lot of dead swallows, particularly purple martins) but this was clearly an
>aberration.
Nobody gets it right all the time. By the sound of it people (and
birds) were caught out no matter what the method they used.
>
>There have certainly been failed crops throughout history but those are also
>the exception, not the rule.
>
>I imagine a stonehenge type of predictor of when to plant could be pretty
>accurate. You obviously give yourself a little wiggle room but if you can
>plant 2 weeks after the average frost date, I imagine you'll be safe 9 years
>out of 10.
>
>Curt Emanuel
>
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
But weeks of heavy cloud cover might move you to amend them.
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
<TJa...@mail.boisestate.edu> wrote:
>[piggybacking 'cause i dont see the op]
>
>"Uwe Müller" wrote...
>>
>> "Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>[...]
>>> I accept what you tell me. It's just that I am very doubtful of the
>>> ability of the ancients to do that with meaningful precision using
>>> 'Stonehenge' type predictors.
>
>i'd rather not get into this knowing the dirrectional tendency of your
>arguments. however, are you suggesting the 'ancients' did not have the
>intellectual capacities to be able to recognize and understand the cyclical
>nature of their own environment?
Gosh no!
The long term accuracy of some of the ancient calendrical arrays is
quite extraordinary. My point stemmed from my original query about
whether they really used these devices for agricultural purposes. The
general climate varies from year to year so always planting at a
particular date is just as likely to put you wrong as it is to have
you right. (I accept that this argument does depend on just how
variable the local climate is and how susceptible to the variation the
local crop cycle is). When you get a bunch of agriculturalists working
together its amazing how much they will agree that it is now time (or
too early) to plant wheat (or put the rams in with the ewes), even
though they did these things at a different date last year (and a
different date the year before that). I am sceptical that the observed
precision was required just for agricultural purposes.
>
>>
>> Classic Darwinism: anything that gives you an edge over your competitors
>> will work in your favour in the long run. Start with rough guides,
>> migratinng animals, flowering plants. 10% advantage. Note position of sun
>> during the favourite time, mark it for repeated viewing. 50 % Advantage.
>> Use
>> a number of celestial objects, start counting days and making a calendar.
>> Bingo, even weeks of heavy cloud cover will not put you off your
>> agricultural dates.
>>
>> have fun
>
>basically.
>
>;-)
>
>
Eric Stevens
Tedd Jacobs
"Eric Stevens" wrote...
ah, okay. now i get it. thanks for clarifying, i'd lost the original
thread.
Inger E
Completely different here in Northern Hemisphere.
The 'old' methods are usually more reliable than today's Weather prognoses
made from the best skills and computerprograms. Using the old
'Bondepraktikan' combined with observing the sky early morning and during
sunset with ocular observation of the waterlevels if possible gives correct
information. 8 times of 10 better than the local weather forcast.
Inger E
Inger E
No not more than 1-2 days. And mostly if it has been an exceptionally good
weather with a lot of sun and too little rain before.
Inger E
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
Curt Emanuel
> The long term accuracy of some of the ancient calendrical arrays is
> quite extraordinary. My point stemmed from my original query about
> whether they really used these devices for agricultural purposes. The
> general climate varies from year to year so always planting at a
> particular date is just as likely to put you wrong as it is to have
> you right. (I accept that this argument does depend on just how
> variable the local climate is and how susceptible to the variation the
> local crop cycle is). When you get a bunch of agriculturalists working
> together its amazing how much they will agree that it is now time (or
> too early) to plant wheat (or put the rams in with the ewes), even
> though they did these things at a different date last year (and a
> different date the year before that). I am sceptical that the observed
> precision was required just for agricultural purposes.
>>
Well, not to relate this to ancient history but stating something that's
just blatantly wrong is another thing.
Agronomists HAVE calculated the optimum time to plant. For example, where I
live (Central Indiana USA), full season corn hybrids planted between April
20 and May 5 can be expected to yield from 99-100% of their potential.
Planting either before or after that date lessens the probability of
achieving maximum yields. Universities as well as seed companies have done
enormous amounts of research on this.
Does this mean that's always the case? Heck no - for one thing, corn won't
germinate with soil temps below 50 degrees F. And you can always get an
oddball year. But around here, farmers try, every year, to get as much of
their corn in the ground by May 5 as possible. That's playing the odds.
Similar research has been done for other crops. For Soybeans it's May 20.
Source for both of these is the Purdue University Corn and Soybean Field
Guide, 2006 Edition. Publication ID-179.
I'm not sure where you live that climactic variability is so profound, but
in pretty much every crop I'm aware of, and every region of the US, there's
an optimum planting date. I don't know why that wouldn't have been the case
a few thousand years ago.
Curt Emanuel
Eric Stevens
But surely you are not arguing that this is the same as relying on a
stonehenge type of solar clock?
Eric Stevens
Peter Alaca
> "Inger E" wrote:
>> "Eric Stevens" wrote
>>>> Local climates aren't unpredictable.
>>> That's not my experience.
>> Completely different here in Northern Hemisphere.
>> The 'old' methods are usually more reliable than today's Weather
>> prognoses made from the best skills and computerprograms. Using the
>> old 'Bondepraktikan' combined with observing the sky early morning
>> and during sunset with ocular observation of the waterlevels if
>> possible gives correct information. 8 times of 10 better than the
>> local weather forcast.
> But surely you are not arguing that this is the same as relying on a
> stonehenge type of solar clock?
Well, the Elderly in Sweden used to stand in a
huge circle, all taking a leak at the same time
while looking at the sky, and after that by ocular
obsevation of each others pants they knew from
where the wind blew.
Stonehenge never can beat that.
--
p.a.
Inger E
Surely I am. The 'notes'/marks written down in for example 'Bondepraktikan'
and the
runes on the runestaves we discussed earlier,
the one that Mr Comanda showed Lee as well as the one found on the homefarm
of Olaus Magnus, gives the same information that the elderly used long ago,
using solar and starpositions to establish when this and that was to take
place. Apart from that type of information the 'Bondepraktikan' has a text
filled with idioms that gives a lot of 'stuffed' information regarding
relations between weather a specific day/week and other periods during the
year.
Btw. I know several who celebrate winter-solstice at 'right' hour and day
same way as the summer-solstice, which due to administrative decisions
aren't always the same as the midsummernight Eve....
Inger E
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
deowll
It isn't but there was a very good reason rural types bought farmers
almanacs. You might enjoy reading one. At the present many people may plant
crops before the last date they can expect frost but at the present they can
afford to replant. They also aren't going to starve if they don't get their
crop in the ground in time to make a harvest before it is killed in the
fall.
The exact date of that first frost in the fall and last frost in the spring
vary each year but if you know when the earliest frost in the fall in a very
long time and the latest frost in the spring in a very long time occured by
calender as well as the averages you can work around them and avoid starving
unless something else gets the crop.
Of course many people must have felt like you seem to but seeing what
happened to them would have convenced the others to use those heavenly
calendars. There was a reason people planted by the signs.
deowll
They wouldn't have needed it. The calendar was in the sky. So where the
gods or some of them and as we all know showing due respect for the gods is
vital for a good crop. Shamens and kings all over the world have tried to
get a piece of this action. They control the weather and the seasons and
have great power until the weather patterns get out of kilter at which time
you sacrifice somebody, in many cases the old king, or at least the people
in Europe seem to have traditions that suggest such was once common
practice. Yes it was absolutely vital that the king be in prime condition
and that the tribe not suffer any serious reverses. If he wasn't or things
started to go wrong you sacrifice him and get a new king/chieftan. Later
rules seem to have done away with this for some reason. Sometimes I think
the old ways had a lot to commend them.
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
>
Eric Stevens
wrote:
Just as a matter of test, can anyone tell me where are the frost (or
any other agricultural) indicators on Stonehenge?
>
>Of course many people must have felt like you seem to but seeing what
>happened to them would have convenced the others to use those heavenly
>calendars. There was a reason people planted by the signs.
>
>
>
>>>
>>>I don't know about you but that's plenty of motivation for me. I've eaten
>>>acorns and living off them does not attract me besides sometimes there
>>>weren't enough acorns.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is also the pre-Roman Greek gear wheel device that was found
>>>>>> lately in a wreck
>>>>>> that indicates knowledge that was "unexpected".
>>>>>> ( added : my spelling isn't always the best. And my spell checker
>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>> either)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>have fun
>>>>>
>>>>>Uwe Mueller
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eric Stevens
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric Stevens
>
Eric Stevens
Tom McDonald
Eric Stevens wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:29:37 -0500, "deowll" <deo...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
> >news:m5k1f2ptng05e6l78...@4ax.com...
<snip>
> >> You are saying that in some parts of the world the timing of frosts
> >> (or whatever) is so consistent that you can determine their likelihood
> >> with clockwork precision. I don't think even the flooding of the Nile
> >> was that consistent.
> >
> >It isn't but there was a very good reason rural types bought farmers
> >almanacs. You might enjoy reading one. At the present many people may plant
> >crops before the last date they can expect frost but at the present they can
> >afford to replant. They also aren't going to starve if they don't get their
> >crop in the ground in time to make a harvest before it is killed in the
> >fall.
> >
> >The exact date of that first frost in the fall and last frost in the spring
> >vary each year but if you know when the earliest frost in the fall in a very
> >long time and the latest frost in the spring in a very long time occured by
> >calender as well as the averages you can work around them and avoid starving
> >unless something else gets the crop.
>
> Just as a matter of test, can anyone tell me where are the frost (or
> any other agricultural) indicators on Stonehenge?
There is a patch of treated rock on the inside of two uprights on the
south side of the circle. When there is a frost, these patches turn
white. :-)
Since you didn't include a smiley, I'll assume you may have been
serious with your question. As with the astronomical observations one
can make from various incarnations of what is now Stonehenge, the most
important indicators are in the minds of the folks who used them.
Since the site was used for a big chunk of the British Neolithic, ISTM
that things like dates of first and last frost would have varied by
some significant amount over that time. Users of the site for
observations would have had at least two, probably three, and perhaps
more, generations of experience ready to hand to help them interpret
the calendrical readings in terms of the timing of various activities,
agricultural and otherwise.
Assume for a moment a Henge authority (priesthood, shamanate, whatever)
that, like modern astrologers, did not update their relationship
between the time of year and the timing of planting as conditions
changed. Soon enough, they would be advising planting too early or too
late, and the harvest would suffer. I suspect that, soon enough, so
would they.
ISTM that a certain suppleness in collating the calendrical and the
agricultural functions of certain of the Henge's users would result in
a tool that adequately, if not perfectly, predicted the best times for
key agricultural activities. Very much as the modern situation with
almanacs and climate studies.
IOW, it is the software (or, in this case, wetware) that is vital; the
hardware merely offers astronomical precision.
<snip>
Peter Alaca
news:1156946213....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com
> Eric Stevens wrote:
>> Just as a matter of test, can anyone tell me where are the frost (or
>> any other agricultural) indicators on Stonehenge?
> There is a patch of treated rock on the inside of two uprights on the
> south side of the circle. When there is a frost, these patches turn
> white. :-)
Yes, and when the top of the stones were wet,
it was raining.
> [...]
--
p.a.
Eric Stevens
wrote:
I could have included a smiley but my question was directed to the
point I want to make. Stonehenge and other similar arangements do not
incorporate features to enable their purpose to be linked to
agriculture. The best that can be done is to show that they were
somehow connected to the solar calendar. That the calendar was
constructed and used for agricultural purposes is but a hypothesis for
which there is no evidence. The forceful assertion that this was their
purpose is a statement of belief and as such has no basis in science.
There are all kinds of hypothesese as to the purpose of these
arrangements of stone but there is little evidence supporting any.
>
>Since the site was used for a big chunk of the British Neolithic, ISTM
>that things like dates of first and last frost would have varied by
>some significant amount over that time. Users of the site for
>observations would have had at least two, probably three, and perhaps
>more, generations of experience ready to hand to help them interpret
>the calendrical readings in terms of the timing of various activities,
>agricultural and otherwise.
There are very few events in nature which occur with the regular
precision of a solar clock. If the henge calendars (for want of a
better name) were tied to natural processes then there are very few
candidate events. The alternative is that the need for precision lay
in the mind of men and may have been tied to ceremonial functions of
some kind.
>
>Assume for a moment a Henge authority (priesthood, shamanate, whatever)
>that, like modern astrologers, did not update their relationship
>between the time of year and the timing of planting as conditions
>changed. Soon enough, they would be advising planting too early or too
>late, and the harvest would suffer. I suspect that, soon enough, so
>would they.
But are there (or have there been) societies where planting does not,
cannot, occur without authority from priestly authority or the like?
>
>ISTM that a certain suppleness in collating the calendrical and the
>agricultural functions of certain of the Henge's users would result in
>a tool that adequately, if not perfectly, predicted the best times for
>key agricultural activities. Very much as the modern situation with
>almanacs and climate studies.
Well right now I'm looking at the weather and saying 'if I don't do
something soon it will be too late to transplant those seedling
trees'. I don't need a calendar for that and even if there is one I
don't know that I would pay too much attention to it.
>
>IOW, it is the software (or, in this case, wetware) that is vital; the
>hardware merely offers astronomical precision.
>
And its the need for the latter which I am questioning. Was there
something important in the lives of the peoples of those times which
needed such astronomical precision? If there was, why did the need
apparantly die out?
Eric Stevens
Inger E
Yesterday I spoke with a scholar specialist in these matters. It seems as if
it was around the time of Christ humans first started to divide time in
smaller parts than a quarter of an hour. Ptolomy and his describption of the
Earth being able to divide in 360 grades is said to have had influence in
this matter.
While it's known that the hour could be divided in 60 minuits from 1100's
monestry documents, I was told, it's impossible from today's knowledge to
say when it started and while the ancient people of Stonehenge most
certainly knew exact when the sun would rise shining over a certain point
during summer solstice, it's impossible to know how they divided their time
into pieces.
Inger E
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens