But were the philistines the phoenicians

Oh so rich & successful JTEM

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Jul 12, 2016, 12:02:25 AM7/12/16

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Well?

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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/147271804323

Yusuf B Gursey

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Jul 12, 2016, 1:39:58 AM7/12/16

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On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 7:02:25 AM UTC+3, Oh so rich & successful JTEM wrote:
> Well?
>
>

It would be a no brainer to make the archaeological identification
if so.

>
>
> -- --
>
> http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/147271804323

Italo

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Jul 12, 2016, 6:39:01 AM7/12/16

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Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> schreef:

> On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 7:02:25 AM UTC+3, Oh so rich & successful JTEM wrote:
> > Well?
> >
> >
>
> It would be a no brainer to make the archaeological identification
> if so.

The archaelogical definition of "Phoenicians" does not quite cover the historical usage of the term.
Herodotus specifically mentions the "Phoenicians" of Askalon as the same people that founded the oldest sanctuary of Aphrodite, at Paphos, Cyprus.
And these Askalonians attacked Sidon "one year before the fall of Troy" (Justinus 18.3) - mirroring Paris' Teucrians capturing Sidon (Cypria, summary by Proclus).

--

b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Yusuf B Gursey

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Jul 12, 2016, 8:57:24 AM7/12/16

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1. I am using contempopary usage.

2. "Phoenicia" in ancient usage included teh whole
Eastern Mediterranian coast at times.

3. Herodotus includes legendary material.

Italo

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Jul 12, 2016, 6:23:43 PM7/12/16

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Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> schreef:

> On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 1:39:01 PM UTC+3, Italo wrote:
> > Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> schreef:
> >
> > > On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 7:02:25 AM UTC+3, Oh so rich & successful JTEM wrote:
> > > > Well?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > It would be a no brainer to make the archaeological identification
> > > if so.
> >
> > The archaelogical definition of "Phoenicians" does not quite cover the historical usage of the term.
> > Herodotus specifically mentions the "Phoenicians" of Askalon as the same people that founded the oldest sanctuary of Aphrodite, at Paphos, Cyprus.
> > And these Askalonians attacked Sidon "one year before the fall of Troy" (Justinus 18.3) - mirroring Paris' Teucrians capturing Sidon (Cypria, summary by Proclus).
> >
> >
> >
>
> 1. I am using contempopary usage.

contempopulary ?

> 2. "Phoenicia" in ancient usage included teh whole
> Eastern Mediterranian coast at times.

At times, maybe (but where?). Mostly it is reserved for the area belonging with Tyre and Sidon.

> 3. Herodotus includes legendary material.

That is not the issue, it is corroborated by pseudo-Skylax who calls Askalon "a city of the Tyrians".
But Tyre taking over Askalon is 7th c at the earliest.
The issue is anachronistic usage, both with Greek and with biblical authors.
Personally, I believe that also the "Phoenicians" of Samothrace and Thebes were rather Pelasgians and Philistines.

Similar confusion with the Danites (led by Menelaus, the Plisthenid, I suppose) that held the sea-coast from Askalon northwards (_far northwards_ actually, but then the same are labeled Canaanite Hivites).

Yusuf B Gursey

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Jul 14, 2016, 5:43:12 AM7/14/16

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On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 1:23:43 AM UTC+3, Italo wrote:
> Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> schreef:
>
> > On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 1:39:01 PM UTC+3, Italo wrote:
> > > Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> schreef:
> > >
> > > > On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 7:02:25 AM UTC+3, Oh so rich & successful JTEM wrote:
> > > > > Well?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It would be a no brainer to make the archaeological identification
> > > > if so.
> > >
> > > The archaelogical definition of "Phoenicians" does not quite cover the historical usage of the term.
> > > Herodotus specifically mentions the "Phoenicians" of Askalon as the same people that founded the oldest sanctuary of Aphrodite, at Paphos, Cyprus.
> > > And these Askalonians attacked Sidon "one year before the fall of Troy" (Justinus 18.3) - mirroring Paris' Teucrians capturing Sidon (Cypria, summary by Proclus).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > 1. I am using contempopary usage.
>
> contempopulary ?
>

typo. Contemporary.

> > 2. "Phoenicia" in ancient usage included teh whole
> > Eastern Mediterranian coast at times.
>
> At times, maybe (but where?). Mostly it is reserved for the area belonging with Tyre and Sidon.
>

Canaan and Phoenicia seem both to mean "purple.

The Phoenicians called themselves Canaanites.

Italo

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Jul 14, 2016, 6:20:03 PM7/14/16

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Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> schreef:

> On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 1:23:43 AM UTC+3, Italo wrote:
> > Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> schreef:
> >
> > > On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 1:39:01 PM UTC+3, Italo wrote:
> > > > Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> schreef:
> > > >
> > > > > On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 7:02:25 AM UTC+3, Oh so rich & successful JTEM wrote:
> > > > > > Well?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It would be a no brainer to make the archaeological identification
> > > > > if so.
> > > >
> > > > The archaelogical definition of "Phoenicians" does not quite cover the historical usage of the term.
> > > > Herodotus specifically mentions the "Phoenicians" of Askalon as the same people that founded the oldest sanctuary of Aphrodite, at Paphos, Cyprus.
> > > > And these Askalonians attacked Sidon "one year before the fall of Troy" (Justinus 18.3) - mirroring Paris' Teucrians capturing Sidon (Cypria, summary by Proclus).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > 1. I am using contempopary usage.
> >
> > contempopulary ?
> >
>
> typo. Contemporary.
>
> > > 2. "Phoenicia" in ancient usage included teh whole
> > > Eastern Mediterranian coast at times.
> >
> > At times, maybe (but where?). Mostly it is reserved for the area belonging with Tyre and Sidon.
> >
>
> Canaan and Phoenicia seem both to mean "purple.

If (at Nuzi) Kinahhu refers to purpur dye (?) that still derives from
the name rather as vice versa.
Phoinike is from Egyptian fnxw (Fenkhu), literally meaning
"woodworkers, carpenters", as ethnic name at least since the Middle
Kingdom (Sinuhe). The lands (plural) of the Fenkhu should be at the
Lebanon (supplier of cedar wood), or in any case different from Retenu
("Syria-Palestine") and the Setiu ("Asiatics").

> The Phoenicians called themselves Canaanites.

Right. And the country Canaan, by my understanding, it is the same as
Phoenicia - i.e. the lands belonging with Tyre and Sidon..

My point was merely that some of the better known "Phoenician"
references from Greek legends may've been anachronistically labeled as
such.

Martin Edwards

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Jul 15, 2016, 2:41:31 AM7/15/16

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On 7/14/2016 10:43 AM, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> The Phoenicians called themselves Canaanites

Some argue from this that there really were no "Israelites", they were
simply inland Phoenicians and spoke more or less the same language.
Even today the majority in Scotland do not speak Gaelic, and the
dividing line between "Scots" and English with a Scottish accent is
unclear. The "Geordie" accent of Northeast England can be pretty
impenenetrable to the rest of the country.

--
Myth, after all, is what we believe naturally. History is what we must
painfully learn and struggle to remember. -Albert Goldman

Yusuf B Gursey

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Jul 15, 2016, 3:11:11 AM7/15/16

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On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 9:41:31 AM UTC+3, Martin Edwards wrote:
> On 7/14/2016 10:43 AM, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> > The Phoenicians called themselves Canaanites
>
> Some argue from this that there really were no "Israelites", they were
> simply inland Phoenicians and spoke more or less the same language.
> Even today the majority in Scotland do not speak Gaelic, and the
> dividing line between "Scots" and English with a Scottish accent is
> unclear. The "Geordie" accent of Northeast England can be pretty
> impenenetrable to the rest of the country.
>

That was probably true. Neverthless the Phoenician cities had
a written standard that is distinguishable from the southern
Canaanites dialects in writing. From Greek transcriptions we know
that Biblical Hebrew in the 3rd cent. BCE preserved phonemic
distinctions from Proto-Semitic not distinguished in the idiom
of the inventors of the alphabet, the Phoenicians.

Oh so rich & successful JTEM

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Jul 16, 2016, 12:16:49 AM7/16/16

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Yusuf B Gursey wrote:

[snip]

Hebrew and Phoenician were two dialects.

That's all.

Sure you can CHERRY PICK from amongst the
later ancient Hebrews, compare one of them
to Phoenician & pretend they don't match,
but that's dishonest.

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http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/147466389883

Martin Edwards

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Jul 16, 2016, 2:25:37 AM7/16/16

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Thanks for the update.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Jul 18, 2016, 9:20:42 AM7/18/16

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On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 7:16:49 AM UTC+3, Oh so rich & successful JTEM wrote:
> Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Hebrew and Phoenician were two dialects.
>
> That's all.
>
> Sure you can CHERRY PICK from amongst the
> later ancient Hebrews, compare one of them
> to Phoenician & pretend they don't match,
> but that's dishonest.
>
>

The "later ancient Hebrews" had preserved phonemes
lost to the "earlier" Phoenicians. Go figure. OTOH Phoenician
has some basic vocabulary not found in the epigraphy
further south at the same period. Calling them dialects
or seperate languages is a matter of sociology. They
were closely related and on the whole mutually intelligibile
(so are the Germanic Scandivanian languages).

>
>
> -- --
>
> http://jtem.tumblr.com/post/147466389883

Martin Edwards

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Jul 19, 2016, 2:35:12 AM7/19/16

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In "The Bridge" Swedes and Danes seem to understand each other if they
stick to the standard language and speak clearly. In England people
with little English usually can understand if you talk like a BBC
newsreader. In my part of Birmingham many people try to speak to them
in the local accent riddled with clichés, with disappointing results.

Message has been deleted

Chris Jones

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Mar 9, 2022, 7:25:39 PM3/9/22

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Yusuf B Gursey, Im a Sailor by trade, 30yrs on the ocean ive went thru a few thousand books. I consider myself an amateur historian and Im impressed with your knowledge on the Phoenicians, philistines and the caananites. There is no solid proof or none that I have found that links the 4 different peoples. or were they one, or maybe mixed races. I think I have the answer and since I am an Amateur Ill connect the dots cause I dont have a reputation to lose. The minionans who were also sea traders mixed with the philistines and became Phoenicians, philistines were upper class Canaanites, I believe the jews were the disenfranchised caananites. The poorest, undesirables. Who were kicked out of Caanan and came back and reclaimed their land as Isreal. I haven found any literature that ties this, but the books ive read about the subject the dots are there to connect but people dont want to connect them because of lack of proof. I respect ur knowledge on the subject and would grateful for any feedback.

Oh so rich & successful JTEM

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Mar 9, 2022, 7:46:36 PM3/9/22

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Chris Jones wrote:

> Yusuf B Gursey, Im a Sailor by trade, 30yrs on the ocean ive went thru a few thousand books. I consider myself an amateur
> historian and Im impressed with your knowledge on the Phoenicians, philistines and the caananites.

How do you tell them apart?

HINT: There is ZERO difference.

> There is no solid proof or none that I have found that links the 4 different peoples.

If you begin with the assumption that there are four different peoples, that is.

The bible is not a history book.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/678200964744904704