Proto-Ionian Theory
grapheus
Steve-the-pseudo-scientist challenged me to produce the evidence
concerning the existence of the Proto-Ionians in the Aegean during the
Early Bronze Age, and their identification with the inhabitants of the
Cyclades. As he was falsely pretending to know the "Proto-Ionian
Theory" and to have read all the J. Faucounau's papers on the subject
(an obvious lie !), I refused, asking him to read first the papers he
pretended to know...
I don't have the same motive to refuse to open the discussion about
the Proto-Ionian Theory with the other, of good faith, netters. So,
for anybody but Steve-the-bluffing-ignorant, I propose the following :
a)- In a first step, I'll give a short SUMMARY of the evidence
concerning the Proto-Ionian Theory, "chapter by chapter".
b)- If anyone but Steve-the-verbose-pseudo-scientist is interested in
knowing more, or has some objections, concerning ONE chapter, he will
open a NEW THREAD related to THIS particular chapter, so the
discussion can take place without being killed by a flooding of
questions in the Steve's usual way.
c)- If therefore one netter but Steve is interested by several
chapters, he has to open as many new threads.
Here are now the FIRST CHAPTERS of the Summary of J.F.'s arguments :
Chapter 1 : The Phaistos Disk and the Cyclades :
The Phaistos Disk has several Cycladic characteristics, belonging to
the Keros-Syros Culture.
There is therefore a link between the Disk and the Cycladic
Keros-Syros Culture. The Disk appears as the heir of this culture.
Chapter 2 : Linguistical Data :
The Disk has been written in Proto-Ionic.
This is contradictory with the "Risch-Chadwick Theory". But the
linguistical facts are against this last theory. In particular, there
are traces of "Proto-Ionisms" in Mycenaean Greek.
Chapter 3 : The Kretschmerian Theory :
From Ch.1 and 2, one has to deduce that the Cycladic people of the
Keros-Syros Culture spoke a Proto-Ionic language.
The best explanation of this fact can be found in the "Kretschmerian
Theory", which had been considered as obsolete by the followers of the
"Risch-Chadwick Theory" during the last 50 years.
Chapter 4 : The Troy Problem in the frame of the Proto-Ionian Theory :
From Ch.3, one has to conclude, as a consequence, that the
Proto-Ionians coming from the mouth of the Danube, settled at Troy
c.3000 BC, and a bit later in the Cyclades.
Chapter 5 : ... (to be followed)
Regards to all !
grapheus
steve
>belonging to the Keros-Syros Culture.
>There is therefore a link between the Disk and the Cycladic
>Keros-Syros Culture. The Disk appears as the heir of this culture.
Short answer:
There is no similarity whatsoever between the
Keros-Syros and Phaistos cultures
Longer response:
The pottery is completly different
the Cycladic Islands have geometric ornament.
============
CRETE
Early Neolithic I (ca. 5700-4000 b.c.) [Levels IX-V]
Pottery, which appears in a fully developed form and
increases in quantity with time, is generally
*dark-surfaced and
*burnished. It is
*decorated with
*incised and
*dot-impressed ({pointillé}) motifs which are often
*filled with
*white, and occasionally with
*red, paste.
*Complex handles and rims are claimed as evidence
that the pottery was not in a formative stage of
development and hence that the technology behind
it was imported wholesale from outside the island,
but such features could conceivably have been
imitated from containers in other media such as
woodwork or basketry.
============
THE CYCLADIC ISLANDS
The Saliagos Culture (ca. 4300-3700 b.c.)
The only extensively excavated site of this culture,
Saliagos, lies on what is now a small islet between
Paros and Antiparos. This site was clearly a settlement,
the finds from it including architecture, pottery,
stone artifacts, and both plant and animal
(including fish and shellfish) remains.
The architecture consists of buildings with rectangular rooms.
In the last of the three distinguishable strata on the site,
much of the excavated area was occupied by a single rectangular
complex measuring 15 by more than 17 meters.
The pottery is
*dark-surfaced, usually
*unburnished when coarse and
*burnished when fine. Characteristic are
*open bowls, of which ca. 40% stand on
*high pedestal feet.
Equally characteristic is the
*decoration of this dark-surfaced pottery with
*geometric ornament, both
*rectilinear and
*curvilinear, in
*white matt paint.
========================
1.)The dates are different
2.)The pottery styles are different
3.)The burials are different
4.)The Phaistoes Disk represents heads and shields
not found in the Cycladic culture
5.)The spiral layout of the Disk is
different from those on Frying pans
which all have long linear extensions
6.)The symbols are all different
7.)The boats shown on the Phaistos Disk don't look anything
like the boats on Cycladic frying pans. How come?
>Chapter 2 : Linguistical Data :
>The Disk has been written in Proto-Ionic.
There is no such thing as a linguistic definition of proto-Ionic
There is no proto-Ionic grammar
There is no proto-Ionic script
There is no proto-Ionic language
>This is contradictory with the "Risch-Chadwick Theory". But the
>linguistical facts are against this last theory. In particular, there
>are traces of "Proto-Ionisms" in Mycenaean Greek.
There is no such thing as proto-Ionisms
There is nothing to compare to Mycenean Greek
There is no proto-Ionic grammar
There is no proto-Ionic script
There is no proto-Ionic language
>Chapter 3 : The Kretschmerian Theory :
>From Ch.1 and 2, one has to deduce that the Cycladic people of the
>Keros-Syros Culture spoke a Proto-Ionic language.
There is no proto-Ionic language
There is no way to tell what language
the people of the Keros-Syros Culture spoke
You could make an equally invalid assumption they spoke Greek.
>The best explanation of this fact can be found in the "Kretschmerian
>Theory", which had been considered as obsolete by the followers of the
>"Risch-Chadwick Theory" during the last 50 years.
Why do you think a theory which hasn't been sucessfully defended
in fifty years should replace the linguistic consensus of the present day.
>
>Chapter 4 : The Troy Problem in the frame of the Proto-Ionian Theory :
>From Ch.3, one has to conclude, as a consequence, that the
>Proto-Ionians coming from the mouth of the Danube, settled at Troy
There were no proto Ionians
How would you propose that people
from the mouth of the Danube could be shown
to have made their way to Troy
can you list any similarities in:
Pottery
Burials
Burial goods
Architecture
Defensive walls
that date to c 3000 BC?
Here is a brief description of the Vinca culture pottery:
Vinca-Turdas, and Vinca-Plocnik, dated by radiocarbon
to c. 5400-4800 and 4800-4500 B.C.
The pottery throughout is typically
*dark
*burnished,
*with fluting and
*simple incised decoration.
http://archweb.cimec.ro/arch/terms.htm
Compare the comparable period pottery of Greece
at Franchthi and again thewre is a predominence of
dark, monochrome burnished ware but there is
*also red painted ware*
<http://devlab.cs.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/images/prevnext.gif>
EARLY NEOLITHIC: (ca. 6000-5000 b.c.)
[Renfrew's Introduction of Simple Village Farming]
The beginning of the Neolithic period at Franchthi Cave
Early Neolithic pottery is mostly (70%)
*dark
*monochrome
*burnished ware in the form of
*hole-mouthed jars and
*deep hemispherical bowls
fired at relatively low temperatures
(<650C) in small batches.
A variety of
*painted ware
*with patterns in
*red or
*red-brown paint
appears after the beginning of the Early Neolithic but never
exceeds 5% of the total pottery.
Now look at the pottery of Crete and the Cycladic islands.
http://devlab.cs.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/1.html#10
THE NEOLITHIC SEQUENCE IN CRETE
Early Neolithic finds are so far restricted to the
settlement at Knossos.
Early Neolithic I (ca. 5700-4000 b.c.) [Levels IX-V]
Pottery, which appears in a fully developed form and
increases in quantity with time, is generally
*dark-surfaced and
*burnished. It is
*decorated with
*incised and
*dot-impressed ({pointillé}) motifs which are often
*filled with
*white, and occasionally with
*red, paste.
*Complex handles and rims are claimed as evidence
that the pottery was not in a formative stage of
development and hence that the technology behind
it was imported wholesale from outside the island,
but such features could conceivably have been
imitated from containers in other media such as
woodwork or basketry.
>c.3000 BC, and a bit later in the Cyclades.
THE NEOLITHIC SEQUENCE IN THE CYCLADIC ISLANDS
The Saliagos Culture (ca. 4300-3700 b.c.)
The only extensively excavated site of this culture,
Saliagos, lies on what is now a small islet between
Paros and Antiparos. This site was clearly a settlement,
the finds from it including architecture, pottery,
stone artifacts, and both plant and animal
(including fish and shellfish) remains.
The architecture consists of buildings with rectangular rooms.
In the last of the three distinguishable strata on the site,
much of the excavated area was occupied by a single rectangular
complex measuring 15 by more than 17 meters.
The pottery is
*dark-surfaced, usually
*unburnished when coarse and
*burnished when fine. Characteristic are
*open bowls, of which ca. 40% stand on
*high pedestal feet.
Equally characteristic is the
*decoration of this dark-surfaced pottery with
*geometric ornament, both
*rectilinear and
*curvilinear, in
*white matt paint.
The Vinca culture is not located on the mouth of the Danube
1.)The dates are different
2.)The pottery styles are different
3.)The burials are different
4.) The symbols are all different
>Chapter 5 : ... (to be followed)
Please... spare yourself the embarassment...
>
>Regards to all !
>
>grapheus
steve
steve
Assuming we have disposed of Grapheus attempt to connect
the Neolithic Vinca of the Danube to the much later Keros-Syros
culture of the Cycladic and to connect the Knossos assemblages
of North East Crete to the Phaistos culture on the south side
of the island we can procede to look at the time frame in which
the proposed connections did exist.
The Korakou culture is Early Helladic IIA meaning that it
comes along a millenia after the period Graphaeus proposes
By Early Helladic IIA we can show that it is possible to
connect Crete with the Cycladic Islands, but later
in Early Minoan II (ca. 2700/2650-2150 B.C.) the
connection dissapears.
It isn't until Middle Minoan IIIA-B (ca. 1750/1720-1700/1675 B.C.)
that the connection is re-established and is of the nature
Grapheus wants to show already existed 1300 years earlier.
As to the connection between the Vinca and Troy, thats
also absurd. A millenia after the date Grapheus gives
Troy I overlaps in date with the Korakou culture on
the Greek Mainland and the Keros-Syros culture in
the central Aegean islands.
Its another three centuries before there is a connection
between the central Aegean Islands and Phaistos in Crete.
All of these cultures have well known existing names,
dates, assemblages of pottery and other associations
that the proto-Ionian theory seeks to brush aside
as inconvenient to its fantasy.
Troy I
Changes are minimal. Pattern-painted light-on-dark
decoration appears as an alternative to incisions
filled with white paste, but it is rare. The first
Aegean ceramic imports appear, including fragments
of EH/EC II Urfirnis which show that the middle of
Troy I overlaps in date with the Korakou culture on
the Greek Mainland and the Keros-Syros culture in
the central Aegean islands.
Troy II is broadly contemporary with the middle and
later stages of the Korakou and Keros-Syros cultures
of EH IIA and EC IIA respectively.
In early Troy II, the pottery continues the tradition
of Troy I. As Troy II progresses, more of the pottery is
red to tan in color instead of black, although black-polished
ware is still common. In Troy IIb, the first evidence for the
use of the fast wheel appears in the form of bowls with
flaring sides. The introduction of the wheel leads to the
popularity of new shapes, shallow dishes and plates in
red-slipped-and-polished ware. Such wheelmade types
increase in quantity in Troy IIc. In phase IId, the
depas amphikypellon, a highly distinctive form of
two-handled tankard or flagon, appears in red-washed
ware. One- and two-handled tankards, first appearing
in Troy IIa, have become extremely popular by the
middle of Troy II. The first face-pots and face-lids
appear between middle and late Troy II.
The anthropomorphic features of these vases are generally
agreed to be directly descended from the incised facial
features on the interior rims of the bowls of Troy I.
TROY III (West Anatolian EB 3 (early):
ca. 2250-2100/2050 B.C.)
Deposit 2.0-2.65 m. deep. Three or four architectural phases.
Town demolished at end of Troy III, although for no obvious reason.
The Korakou culture existed significantly earlier than the
Early Helladic III levels of the Tiryns culture.
"This assemblage appears to have developed directly
out of the central and southern Greek Final Neolithic culture.
For the first phase of the "Bronze Age", it is very poor in metal.
(another reason not to attempt to connect it to the Vinca.)
From the point of view of stages in economic growth,
the culture is perhaps best viewed as a terminal
phase of the Neolithic.
THE KORAKOU CULTURE OF EARLY HELLADIC IIA
(ca. 2650-2200/2150 B.C.)
This culture is defined stratigraphically at Eutresis
and Tsoungiza above Early Helladic I levels of the
Eutresis culture and at Eutresis, Lerna, Tiryns, and
Tsoungiza below Early Helladic III levels of the
Tiryns culture.
The Korakou culture is widely distributed all over the
Peloponnese, Attica, Euboea, Boeotia, Phocis, Locris,
and as far west as the islands of Lefkas and Ithaca.
Pottery typical of the Korakou culture is found in
quantity as far north as Pefkakia in coastal Thessaly,
and in small amounts even further north at Servia in
the Haliakmon valley of western Macedonia.
To the south, it occurs in Early Minoan II levels at
Knossos in Crete, while to the east it is common in
Keros-Syros culture levels at sites such as Skarkos
(Ios) and Ayia Irini (Keos) in the Cyclades and occurs
sparingly in EB 2 levels at the fortified coastal site
of Limantepe on the south side of the Gulf o Izmir on
Turkey's west coast..
Many settlements of this culture, especially in the
Argolid (e.g. Lerna, Tiryns), suffer burnt destructions
before being either abandoned or reoccupied by bearers
of the Tiryns culture, but at Eutresis in Boeotia and
at Kolonna on Aegina there is said to be a smooth and
peaceful transition to the new Tiryns culture.
Pottery
A basically tripartite ceramic assemblage appears to have
developed gradually and smoothly out of that of the preceding
Eutresis culture.
The fine wares, employed for most open shapes (saucers,
bowls with T-shaped rims, large dippers with ring handles,
small spoons, and especially {sauceboat}s [deep cups with
a single small horizontal or vertical handle attached just
below the rim on one side opposite an unusually long and
high-swung, troughed spout on the other]) as well as for
some of the smaller closed shapes (beaked jugs, askoi),
fall into two major classes.
The most common is {Early Helladic Urfirnis} (so labelled
to distinguish it from the much earlier and quite different
Middle Neolithic Urfirnis).
This ware is
*normally unburnished and
*usually coated solidly with a paint/slip
*varying in color from
*black through
*brown to
*red (depending on firing conditions) and
*often mottled in a variety of these darker colors
on one and the same vase.
*Large bowls,
*some water jars,
and, towards the end of the period,
*numerous smaller shapes are only
*partially painted or
*have a simple band at the rim instead of
*the more common solid coating.
Rarely, vases are
*decorated with
*true patterns in
*dark Urfirnis paint on a
*light clay ground (patterned Urfirnis).
The second major fine class,
*{Yellow Mottled ware} (or, in German,
"Elfenbeinware" = "Ivory Ware"),
has a shape range very similar to that of Urfirnis
ware but is
*coated with a
*light-colored slip rather than a dark one and is usually burnished.
*The surface colors of Yellow Mottled vary enormously,
even on the same vase, and include
*yellow,
*pink, and
*bluish-gray. Most
*large closed shapes, including the extremely common
*hydrias or water jars, are made in a
*pale-surfaced,
*medium coarse fabric which is usually
*left unpainted.
The third and final component of Korakou culture ceramics
consists of
*medium coarse and
*coarse,
*dark-surfaced, and
*unburnished cooking pottery. Very closely related to that
of the preceding Eutresis culture, such pottery consists
primarily of
*deep bowls with
*incurving rims which often feature
*plastic and
*impressed decoration in the form of
*bands or
*lugs just below the rim.
http://devlab.cs.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/3.html#3
>>The Phaistos Disk has several Cycladic characteristics,
>>belonging to the Keros-Syros Culture.
>>There is therefore a link between the Disk and the Cycladic
>>Keros-Syros Culture. The Disk appears as the heir of this culture.
>
>Short answer:
>There is no similarity whatsoever between the
>Keros-Syros and Phaistos cultures
EARLY MINOAN II (ca. 2700/2650-2150 B.C.)Pottery
Ayios Onouphrios ware and probably also Lebena ware continue from EM I.
*Pyrgos ware disappears as does
the coarse Incised ware with its Cycladic connections.*
The following new wares are significant:
Fine Gray Ware (Betancourt 1985: 40):
Very fine in texture, gray in color, and normally featuring
a polished surface, this ware is typical of the earlier part
of the period that is therefore designated EM IIA.
The favorite shapes are spherical and cylindrical pyxides.
Decoration, exclusively incised, typically takes the form
of short diagonals, semicircles, rings, and dots.
This ware occurs throughout the island, though never
in very large quantities.
Vasiliki Ware (Betancourt 1985: 43-48):
Solidly painted but intentionally mottled and generally
dark-surfaced, this ware occurs in small amounts in some EM IIA
deposits in east Crete but becomes overwhelmingly dominant
among the fine wares in the subsequent EM IIB phase throughout
the eastern and southern portions of the island. T
he favorite shapes are flat-bottomed jugs, teapots, dishes,
spouted bowls, and goblets. Jugs and teapots often have
applied pellets ("eyes") on either side of the spout.
Always relatively rare in the north central and western regions
of Crete, this ware declines steeply in popularity even in the east
and south after EM IIB.
EARLY MINOAN III (ca. 2150-2050/2000 B.C.)
Problems of Definition
Evans defined this period ceramically by the appearance
of a white-on-dark pattern-painted pottery decorated
in a style altogether different from the earlier Lebena ware
of EM I-II. This definition relied, however, primarily on
the ceramic sequence typical of sites in eastern Crete
(e.g. Gournia, Vasiliki) and not on the sequence at the
site of Knossos which Evans himself was excavating.
For many years, Evans' definition of EM III caused considerable
confusion for excavators working at sites outside of eastern Crete
and was a particular problem for archaeologists interested in
the period immediately preceding the construction of the first
palaces at Knossos, Phaistos, and perhaps Mallia in MM I.
Andreou's dissertation of 1978 resolved much of this confusion
by publishing in some detail a large deposit from Knossos
(the Upper East Well group) which certainly postdates EM II
but which equally clearly precedes Knossian (or north central
Cretan) MM IA, a period itself represented by Andreou's Kouloures group.
*The result of Andreou's work is that EM III is now definable
as a distinct period in north central as well as in eastern Crete.*
It is, however, a brief period in comparison either to the EM II phase
which precedes (500 years long) or to the MM I phase which follows
(250-300 years long).
Pottery
(Betancourt 1985: 53-63)
In eastern Crete, EM III pottery is characterized by a white-on-dark
pattern-painted style which includes both rectilinear and curvilinear
(e.g. circles, spirals) ornament. Such pottery seems to develop directly
from a light-on-dark pattern-painted class present in small quantities
in the EM IIB period at sites such as Myrtos. In north central Crete,
there is relatively little light-on-dark-painted pottery in this phase
and none whatsoever decorated with spirals. In fact, dark-on-light-painted
pottery is more popular in the Knossos area, though patterns are rare
and most of the painted decoration is purely linear (i.e. banding).
Particularly characteristic of the north central region is the footed
or flat-based goblet or "egg-cup" (Hood, The Minoans 38 Fig.14),
a shape which occurs in the eastern part of the island only in the
form of imports. What is happening in the south at this time
(i.e. in the Mesara plain) is not yet clear.
Neither barbotine nor polychrome painted decoration make their
appearance anywhere until MM IA.
"Middle Minoan IIA-B (ca. 1900/1850-1750/1720 B.C.)
These two designations describe ceramic styles
(Walberg's Classical Kamares) current at the palatial sites
of Knossos, *Phaistos*, and Mallia but rarely found outside
of them except in certain specialized cult contexts
(e.g. the Kamares Cave or the peak sanctuary on Mt. Iuktas).
As a result, MM IIIA directly succeeds MM IB at most
Minoan sites, although MM II is stratified between MM IB
and MM III at Knossos and Phaistos and therefore does
have some chronological value, however limited.
At Knossos and Phaistos, the end of MM IIB is marked by
a major destruction horizon (probably due to an earthquake)
which defines the end of the Protopalatial or Old Palace period.
At Mallia, a shrine and the impressive Protopalatial complex
known as Quartier Mu appear to have been violently destroyed
by fire at about the same time or perhaps slightly later.
*During the 18th century, ceramics became a major art form and
the best "{Kamares ware}" (also known as "eggshell ware" due
to the thinness of its walls - it is so fine that many have
argued that it must have been mouldmade rather than having
been thrown on a wheel) is of a technical and artistic quality
never again attained during the Aegean Bronze Age."*
Middle Minoan IIIA-B (ca. 1750/1720-1700/1675 B.C.)
This period witnesses the rebuilding of the palaces at Knossos,
Phaistos, and possibly Mallia (where the existence of a true palace
in the Protopalatial period is not altogether certain at present),
as well as the construction of the palace at Zakro.
Pottery no longer appears to have constituted a major art form
in this phase (= Walberg's Post-Kamares), with the result that
MM III vases, though perfectly serviceable and technically still
of high quality, seem dull and lack-luster compared to those of
MM IB-II. Most tableware is either unpainted, solidly painted,
or decorated with white patterns on a dark coated ground.
Polychromy is relatively rare. The carinated cup disappears
during this period and the most popular drinking vessels are
straight-sided (Vapheio or Keftiu) cups and semiglobular "teacups".
At Knossos, the pottery from the Temple Repositories and the
Room of the Lily Vases, as well as from several quite recently
published large deposits found in houses west of the palace,
exemplifies the shape and decorative ranges of the period.
During this phase, Minoan influence expands and intensifies
throughout the southern Aegean.
For the first time there is good evidence for Minoan contacts
with the western Peloponnese, especially with Messenia.
Minoan artists and craftsmen have been considered by some to
be resident at some Mainland sites at this time (potters at
Ayios Stephanos, smiths at Mycenae). The sites of Trianda
(Rhodes), the Serraglio (Kos), Miletus, Iasos, and Knidos
are thought by many to be firmly established Minoan colonies
by this time if indeed they had not been settlements of this
kind earlier.
In the Cyclades, Minoan influence becomes so pervasive in this
and the ensuing Late Cycladic (LC) I period that Cycladic culture
in many ways is in danger of losing a distinct identity.
It is against this backdrop of marked Minoan cultural expansion
in the early Neopalatial period that, in the opinion of most
specialists, the later Greek traditions of a Minoan thalassocracy
(or sea-empire) must be evaluated for their potential historicity.
http://devlab.cs.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/10.html#21
"All in all, the pottery of the Tiryns culture is quite different
from that of the Korakou culture of the EH IIA period."
http://devlab.cs.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/8.html
grapheus
Steve, who was pretending to have studied the Proto-Ionian Theory,
shows HIS TOTAL IGNORANCE of the subject !.. And, as always, he tries
to kill an honest debate by a flood of secondary developments, of
irrelevant remarks, of unfounded but repeated statements, and of
voluntary ( or unvoluntary, due to ignorance and/or stupidity ??)
mistakes !..
First (voluntary?) mistake, aiming at bringing confusion : Instead of
the "Phaistos Disk's Culture", he talks about the "Phaistos Culture" -
with, as a bonus, a lenghty lecture on the Cretan Civilization !- ..
As if the location where the Disk has been found was the location of
its origin !.. With the same reasoning, an Hittite Letter found at
Tel-el-Amarna would become an "Egyptian" document, to be compared to
the Egyptian Culture !!!
Second (unvoluntary?) mistake : Steve talks about the "Saliagos
Culture" - with, as a premium, a lenghty lecture of his about this
irrelevant subject !- when the "Keros-Syros Culture" was CLEARLY
mentioned !!! (Even a 10 years child would have noticed it. But not
Steve !..)
But let's examine further the first lines of his post :
whi...@shore.net (steve) wrote in message news:<vAIu7.2497$v6.3...@news.shore.net>...
> >The Phaistos Disk has several Cycladic characteristics,
> >belonging to the Keros-Syros Culture.
> >There is therefore a link between the Disk and the Cycladic
> >Keros-Syros Culture. The Disk appears as the heir of this culture.
>
> Short answer:
> There is no similarity whatsoever between the
> Keros-Syros and Phaistos cultures
>
> Longer response:
> The pottery is completly different
> the Cycladic Islands have geometric ornament.
As always with Steve, a SUPERFICIAL answer !
a)- The Phaistos Disk is a ROUND object of BAKED CLAY, anterior to
c.1750 BC, bearing a SPIRAL. Where one may find, at a slightly early
date, a similar (not-inscribed) object ?.. In the Goulandris
Collection : Cycladic "Frying Pan" from the Keros-Syros Culture n° 61
!...
b)- The clay of the Disk has been IMPRESSED with stamps in RELIEF.
Where one may find, at a slightly anterior date, a similar technique
?.. At the National Museum at Athens, the clay of several "Frying
Pans" from Syros have also been impressed with stamps in relief !...
c)- the clay has been well baked, in an oven. So its color is ocre,
almost red. Wher one may find such a type of clay, at a slightly
posterior date ?.. Not at Syros, it is true, but in the Southern
Cyclades, where the Keros-Syros Culture lasted longuer than at Syros
!..
> ========================
> 1.)The dates are different
Of course, they are !.. Do you know the meaning of the word : HEIR
?...
> 2.)The pottery styles are different
Stupid remark ! The Disk is not a vase or a jug ! How can you talk
about "style"?
Do you mean "style in DECORATION" ?.. But a DECORATION is not a SCRIPT
!..
> 3.)The burials are different
???? How do you know that, Steve ?.. The Phaistos Disk has been robbed
by the Minoans !.. Where you with the robbers in a previous life, so
you know WHERE it has been robbed from ?... Please, tell us !..
> 4.)The Phaistoes Disk represents heads and shields
> not found in the Cycladic culture
But found in later Cultures, closely linked to, or heirs of the Disk's
Cycladic Civilization !..
> 5.)The spiral layout of the Disk is
> different from those on Frying pans
> which all have long linear extensions
Stupid remark from an ignorant !.. Of course, you IGNORE the
references given by J.F. in his papers, WITH THE CORRESPONDING
FIGURES... There is no real difference between the spiral on the Disk
and the one on the Goulandris Frying Pan n° 61 !..
Please, be informed, before acting as a professor !..
> 6.)The symbols are all different
WRONG ! At least one of them can be found impressed on a jug probably
coming from Syros. The "adze" is clearly Cycladic. And the characters
of the "Warrior" and the "Woman" can be found on later cultures,
closely linked to the Disk's Civilization... Read J.F.'s papers !..
Don't stay as ignorant as you presently are !..
> 7.)The boats shown on the Phaistos Disk don't look anything
> like the boats on Cycladic frying pans. How come?
WRONG ! The Phaistos Disk's ship is EXACTLY the same as the ships from
the Keros-Syros Culture, including the fish-shaped vane !.. Why you
don't read the J.F.'s papers, where you will be able to found enlarged
photos and figures showing the evolution of the Cycladic ships ?...
>
>
> >Chapter 2 : Linguistical Data :
> >The Disk has been written in Proto-Ionic.
>
> There is no such thing as a linguistic definition of proto-Ionic
STUPID ! "Proto-Ionic" is an intermediary linguistical step between
"Common Greek" (as "reconstructed" by the linguists) and "Ionic" (as
known from the First Millenium BC Inscriptions) !... Obviously, you
don't know what you are talking about !..
> There is no proto-Ionic grammar
STUPID ! The Proto-Ionic Grammar is indermediary between the "Proto-IE
Grammar" (as reconstructed by linguists) and the later Greek Grammar
(as known by any student in Ancient Greek) !..
> There is no proto-Ionic script
?????.. AND WHAT ABOUT THE PHAISTOS DISK ?... Have you another PROVED
decipherment to propose ?... Please, do. But don't omit the PROOFS
!...
> There is no proto-Ionic language
>
STUPID ! See hereabove.
> >This is contradictory with the "Risch-Chadwick Theory". But the
> >linguistical facts are against this last theory. In particular, there
> >are traces of "Proto-Ionisms" in Mycenaean Greek.
>
> There is no such thing as proto-Ionisms
STUPID ! Please, read J.F.'s papers on the subject !..
> There is nothing to compare to Mycenean Greek
?????
> There is no proto-Ionic grammar
> There is no proto-Ionic script
> There is no proto-Ionic language
>
You may REPEAT this one thousand times, it will not change the fact
that you are an IGNORANT, both in J.F.'s work and in Ancient Greek
Linguistics !..
So, I will stop my comments here.
grapheus
Jorn Barger
> c)- the clay has been well baked, in an oven. So its color is ocre,
> almost red. Wher one may find such a type of clay, at a slightly
> posterior date ?..
Has the composition of the clay been matched, scientifically, yet?
And have they dated it by electroluminescence (or whatever)?
--
http://www.robotwisdom.com/ "Relentlessly intelligent
yet playful, polymathic in scope of interests, minimalist
but user-friendly design." --Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
grapheus
> >From Ch.1 and 2, one has to deduce that the Cycladic people of the
> >Keros-Syros Culture spoke a Proto-Ionic language.
> >Theory", which had been considered as obsolete by the followers of the
> >"Risch-Chadwick Theory" during the last 50 years.
> Here is a brief description of the Vinca culture pottery:
>
> Vinca-Turdas, and Vinca-Plocnik, dated by radiocarbon
> to c. 5400-4800 and 4800-4500 B.C.
>
> The pottery throughout is typically
>
> *dark
> *burnished,
> *with fluting and
> *simple incised decoration.
>
> http://archweb.cimec.ro/arch/terms.htm
Extract from G.Poisson's book about "the peopling of Europe"
(Translation from French is mine) :
"In the large and fertile plains of the Danube, a Civilization, called
"Danubian", developped early. Its main characteristic is its pottery,
called "Poterie Rubannée"... In this area, the "Poterie Rubannée" has
followed a special evolution by the adoption of two nexw techniques :
First, the incised lines have been grouped by two, so forming bands
with dots or dashes inside... Secondly, these bands have, with the
time, been curved so to form meanders or spirals... The Vinca site has
been studied since 1908, with the Vassitz' excavations... Excepted in
the oldest layer where the decoration is still linear (Note of the
translator : Starcevo type pottery), the site's pottery is decorated
with incised bands, in form of meanders and spirals... Bowls and urns,
of similar shape and fabrication as the ones found at Troy (Note of
the translator : Troy I/II), have been discovered there. And, next to
the incised black pottery, a red-burnished pottery has been found..."
Extract from M. Gimbutas in "Gods and Goddesses of Old Europe"
(p.22/24) :
"The Vinca sequence is best documented at the site of Vinca itself, 14
km east of Belgrade, excavated intermittently between 1908 and 1932 by
M. Vasitz.... When Professor vasitz first reported the result of the
Vinca mound in the "Illustrated London News" in 1930, he described the
site as "a centre of Aegean civilization " (Note of the present editor
: such were striking the links between Vinca and the Aegean! But he
was wrong about the datation of the Vinca Culture !..)... The
calibrated radiocarbon dates obtained from eight sites of different
phases of the Vinca Culture (...) place this culture between 5300 and
4000 BC (Note of the present editor : In fact, these dates cover at
least two distinct periods : one from 5300 to c.4800 , the second
going from 4800 to 4000 BC).
From the link quoted by Steve, but reading "Lesson 4", NOT "Lesson 1"
!...
" Keros-Syros CAII Pottery : Stamped and/or incised dark-surfaced and
burnished ware. This ware represents a development from the
Grotta-Pelos Pottery which incorporated more curvilinear ornaments and
makes use of stamped concentric circles, spirals and small triangles
for the first time ( Note of the present editor : "in the Aegean area
!")...
I believe that all these quotations make obvious to anyone but
Steve-the-ignorant-one, the kinship and evolution in time between the
Late Vinca Culture (4800-4000BC), the Cycladic Early Bronze Cultures
(Grotta-Pelos (3200-2800) and Kampos first, then Keros-Syros CA II
(2650-2300), the Phaistos Disk (c.1800 BC), and the "Red burnished
Pottery" corresponding to the latest phase of the Cycladic
Civilization *IN THE SOUTHERN CYCLADES and DODECANNESE ONLY* , with
the apex of this last type of pottery at Cyprus during the Early
Bronze Age III ...
grapheus
grapheus
> grapheus <grap...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > c)- the clay has been well baked, in an oven. So its color is ocre,
> > posterior date ?..
>
> Has the composition of the clay been matched, scientifically, yet?
>
> And have they dated it by electroluminescence (or whatever)?
To the best of my knowledge, the answer is NO. The Herakleion Museum
has always been too afraid of dammaging the precious item, which is
its most glorious trophy. (In the same way, he prefers to keep alive
the "mystery of the Disk"! You will not hear the guide to say another
thing than : "the script is still undeciphered" ... Well, I may,
personally, understand that !...).
Best regards
grapheus
steve
>
>whi...@shore.net (steve) wrote in message news:<vAIu7.2497$v6.3...@news.shore.net>...
>
>> >Chapter 3 : The Kretschmerian Theory :
>> >From Ch.1 and 2, one has to deduce that the Cycladic people of the
>> >Keros-Syros Culture spoke a Proto-Ionic language.
>> >The best explanation of this fact can be found in the "Kretschmerian
>> >Theory", which had been considered as obsolete by the followers of the
>> >"Risch-Chadwick Theory" during the last 50 years.
>
>> Here is a brief description of the Vinca culture pottery:
>>
>> Vinca-Turdas, and Vinca-Plocnik, dated by radiocarbon
>> to c. 5400-4800 and 4800-4500 B.C.
>>
>> The pottery throughout is typically
>>
>> *dark
>> *burnished,
>> *with fluting and
>> *simple incised decoration.
>>
>> http://archweb.cimec.ro/arch/terms.htm
>" Keros-Syros CAII Pottery : Stamped and/or incised dark-surfaced and
>burnished ware. This ware represents a development from the
>Grotta-Pelos Pottery which incorporated more curvilinear ornaments and
>makes use of stamped concentric circles, spirals and small triangles
>for the first time ( Note of the present editor : "in the Aegean area
>!")...
>
>I believe that all these quotations make obvious to anyone but
>Steve-the-ignorant-one, the kinship and evolution in time between the
>Late Vinca Culture (4800-4000BC), the Cycladic Early Bronze Cultures
>(Grotta-Pelos (3200-2800) and Kampos first, then Keros-Syros CA II
>(2650-2300), the Phaistos Disk (c.1800 BC), and the "Red burnished
The problem with trying to connect cultures separated by thousands of
years and thousands of miles without filling in the gaps in detail
is that it amounts to meaningless handwaving.
The Vinca culture c 5400-4500 BC has dark burnished pottery
with simple incised decoration while the Keros-Syros culture
c 2700-2000 BC has light unburnished painted pottery and the
pottery of Crete c 1750 BC is fine, light grey and polished.
The pottery of Troy is in yet another diferent Anatolian style
that won't match up with any of the first three
The bottom line is you can't get any more different than that.
Grapheus has no idea that pottery styles are how cultures are
identified and that the changes tend to be measured in centuries
rather than millenia. He confuses similarities with identities
with identities are whats needed to make the connection.
>
>grapheus
steve
steve
Don't you think that if you want to claim the Phaistos Disk doesn't
come from Crete but instead is just some Minoan plunder that it
would make sense to at least make a formal request to get the data?
As I recall the Disk was found in the course of an archaeological
excavation of the minoan palace library at Phaistos by Luigi Pernier.
where it was found in close association to tablets of Linear A.
>Best regards
>
>grapheus
steve
grapheus
> In article <9421101.01100...@posting.google.com>, grap...@my-deja.com says...
> >
> >whi...@shore.net (steve) wrote in message news:<vAIu7.2497$v6.3...@news.shore.net>...
> >>
> >> Vinca-Turdas, and Vinca-Plocnik, dated by radiocarbon
> >> to c. 5400-4800 and 4800-4500 B.C.
> >>
> >> The pottery throughout is typically
> >>
> >> *dark
> >> *burnished,
> >> *with fluting and
> >> *simple incised decoration.
> >>
> >> http://archweb.cimec.ro/arch/terms.htm
>
> >" Keros-Syros CAII Pottery : Stamped and/or incised dark-surfaced and
> >burnished ware. This ware represents a development from the
> >Grotta-Pelos Pottery which incorporated more curvilinear ornaments and
> >makes use of stamped concentric circles, spirals and small triangles
> >for the first time ( Note of the present editor : "in the Aegean area
> >!")...
> >I believe that all these quotations make obvious to anyone but
> >Steve-the-ignorant-one, the kinship and evolution in time between the
> >Late Vinca Culture (4800-4000BC), the Cycladic Early Bronze Cultures
> >(Grotta-Pelos (3200-2800) and Kampos first, then Keros-Syros CA II
> >(2650-2300), the Phaistos Disk (c.1800 BC), and the "Red burnished
> The Vinca culture c 5400-4500 BC has dark burnished pottery
> with simple incised decoration while the Keros-Syros culture
> c 2700-2000 BC has light unburnished painted pottery
Steve, CAN YOU READ ?.. Where have you seen that the typical
Keros-Syros Pottery was PAINTED ??? Quote a single item of PAINTED
pottery coming from the Keros-Syros Culture !.. Not only, you are
IGNORING THE BASICS, but you cannot even read what it's written : a
dark burnished pottery, with stamped or incised decoration!.. Where
is the difference with the Vinca Pottery ?.. Only in the new STAMPING
technique. But the OLD incised technique of decoration has survived...
> and the
> pottery of Crete c 1750 BC is fine, light grey and polished.
IRRELEVANT !
>
> The pottery of Troy is in yet another diferent Anatolian style
> that won't match up with any of the first three
STUPID ! (But I'll not deal here with this subject, which ask for an
important development)
> Grapheus has no idea that pottery styles are how cultures are
> identified and that the changes tend to be measured in centuries
> rather than millenia. He confuses similarities with identities
> with identities are whats needed to make the connection.
>
It's always nice to be called an ignorant by such a guy like Steve,
who knows obviously NOTHING in matter of Aegean pottery !..
grapheus
grapheus
who pretend to have studied J.F.'s work !...
whi...@shore.net (steve) wrote in message news:<YX6v7.2632$v6.3...@news.shore.net>...
> As I recall the Disk was found in the course of an archaeological
> excavation of the minoan palace library at Phaistos by Luigi Pernier.
> where it was found in close association to tablets of Linear A.
>
Surely not a "library" !.. The local was a vault, which by comparison
with the similar Minoan buildings has been recognized by
archaeologists as a "Temple Depository"... The rest of your sentence
is correct... As for the motive why the Disk has been found there, see
J.F.'s book on p. 167, with reference to F. Carinci...
grapheus
steve
>Where have you seen that the typical
>Keros-Syros Pottery was PAINTED ??? Quote a single item of PAINTED
>pottery coming from the Keros-Syros Culture !..
The vinca pottery is dark and burnished
Keros-Syros pottery is unburnished and painted light
THE KORAKOU CULTURE OF EARLY HELLADIC IIA
(ca. 2650-2200/2150 B.C.)
common in Keros-Syros culture levels
Pottery
This ware is
*normally unburnished and
========================================
*usually coated solidly with a paint/slip
===========================================
...
*decorated with
*true patterns in
*dark Urfirnis paint on a
*light clay ground (patterned Urfirnis).
The second major fine class,
*{Yellow Mottled ware} (or, in German,
"Elfenbeinware" = "Ivory Ware"),
...
*coated with a
*light-colored slip
...
*The surface colors of Yellow Mottled vary enormously,
even on the same vase, and include
*yellow,
*pink, and
*bluish-gray.
http://devlab.cs.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/3.html#3
>dark burnished pottery, with stamped or incised decoration!..
>Where is the difference with the Vinca Pottery ?..
Aside from the fact that the vinca pottery is dark and burnished
while the Keros-Syros pottery is unburnished and painted light
there are also differences in shape, utility and decoration.
> Only in the new STAMPING technique. But the OLD incised
>technique of decoration has survived...
The Keros-Syros pottery is not stamped, it is incised.
>
>> and the
>> pottery of Crete c 1750 BC is fine, light grey and polished.
>
>IRRELEVANT !
Its entirely relevent if you want to claim there is a linkage
to anything on Crete...such as the Phaistos Disk...
>
>>
>> The pottery of Troy is in yet another diferent Anatolian style
>> that won't match up with any of the first three
>
>STUPID ! (But I'll not deal here with this subject, which ask for an
>important development)
You won't deal with it because you can't deal with it.
The Vinca culute is Neolithic separated by millenia from Keros-Syros
and as different in style as could be imagined. The Cultures of Crete
are so different you have been forced to whine that its irrelevant
they are different. The pottery of Troy is in yet another diferent
Anatolian style that won't match up with any of the first three.
>
>> Grapheus has no idea that pottery styles are how cultures are
>> identified and that the changes tend to be measured in centuries
>> rather than millenia. He confuses similarities with identities
>> with identities are whats needed to make the connection.
>>
>It's always nice to be called an ignorant by such a guy like Steve,
>who knows obviously NOTHING in matter of Aegean pottery !..
Its not necessary to lable you ignorant when you go out of your way
to prove it to us for yourself.
There is no proto-Ionian culture,
There is no proto-Ionian language
There is no proto-Ionian grammar
Any theory involving proto-Ionians
is a totally unsubstantiated fantasy.
>
>grapheus
steve
steve
While it's ok if you want to call it a temple depository, why a building
identified as a "palace" would have a "temple" depository
might be interesting to see you try and explain.
Most ancient buildings of substance had libraries in their basements.
The vault where the palace kept its books and records, contracts,
accounts, and calendars typically had sturdy wooden shelves on
which clay tablets were stacked. This was the case with the
Minoan palace at Phaistos.
The Phaistos Disk was found in close association to tablets of Linear A
There was no dark burnished Vinca pottery, or Cycladic frying pans, or
any artifact of Anatolia.
>grapheus
steve
grapheus
> In article <9421101.01100...@posting.google.com>, grap...@my-deja.com says...
> >
> >Another "approximative knowledge" from Steve !.. Surprising for a guy
> >who pretend to have studied J.F.'s work !...
> >
> >whi...@shore.net (steve) wrote in message news:<YX6v7.2632$v6.3...@news.shore.net>...
> >
> >> As I recall the Disk was found in the course of an archaeological
> >> excavation of the minoan palace library at Phaistos by Luigi Pernier.
> >> where it was found in close association to tablets of Linear A.
> >>
> >
> >Surely not a "library" !.. The local was a vault, which by comparison
> >with the similar Minoan buildings has been recognized by
> >archaeologists as a "Temple Depository"... The rest of your sentence
> >is correct... As for the motive why the Disk has been found there, see
> >J.F.'s book on p. 167, with reference to F. Carinci...
>
> While it's ok if you want to call it a temple depository,
This is not a fancy of mine !.. It has been recognized as such by all
the specialists !
> why a building
> identified as a "palace" would have a "temple" depository
> might be interesting to see you try and explain.
> Most ancient buildings of substance had libraries in their basements.
> The vault where the palace kept its books and records, contracts,
> accounts, and calendars typically had sturdy wooden shelves on
> which clay tablets were stacked. This was the case with the
> Minoan palace at Phaistos.
That is what YOU say !... No serious archaeologist will agree !.. No
"library" has been found in the (destroyed) Palace of Phaistos !..
Please, be informed correctly !..Read good books on the subject !..
>
> The Phaistos Disk was found in close association to tablets of Linear A
NO ! Not to "tablets" ! To ONE tablet !.. Please, be informed before
playing to the professor !..
> There was no dark burnished Vinca pottery, or Cycladic frying pans, or
> any artifact of Anatolia.
>
So what ???? The Disk has NOTHING to do with the Minoan Civilization
!.. Can you put this into your head ?..
grapheus
grapheus
> >Where have you seen that the typical
> >Keros-Syros Pottery was PAINTED ??? Quote a single item of PAINTED
> >pottery coming from the Keros-Syros Culture !..
>
> The vinca pottery is dark and burnished
> Keros-Syros pottery is unburnished and painted light
> ===========================================
.
Steve, you are again showing your amateurish ignorance !.. You should
not refer to the "Lesson n° 3", but to "Lesson n°4" of this thread
!...
This being said, I recognize that my post was rendered a bit clumsy by
the omission of the word "early" in my question. And, of course, there
was no chance that an ignorant like you could understand it !...
Please know that the definition of the "Keros-Syros Culture" has
varied with the time : It has been described for the first time in
1972 by C. Renfrew. This scholar included, at that time, in HIS
definition, the "Kastri Group" and the "Kampos Group", so that some
"painted pottery" was included in the assemblage ... The "painted
pottery" found in the "Keros-Syros sites" represents less than 4% of
the total. It is obviously not "TYPICAL" of this Culture (the word I
used in my preceding post), the more as about half of this pottery
type has been shown to have been imported from Crete ... In the
"Lesson 4" of the Dartmouth College, the text has been supervised by
Prof. Jeremy Rutter, who is known for having taken a "middle position"
between the partisans of "Cultural labels" (Renfrew, Doumas,
Faucounau, etc.) for the Early Cycladic artifactual assemblages, and
the partisans of the "Chronological labels" (Barber, Mc Gillivray).
This text mentions therefore in its description of the "Keros-Syros
Culture" not only the "Stamped and/or Incised Ware" - which is the
true "marker" of the KS-Culture - but also the secondary wares found
during the ECII Period (corresponding to the KS-Culture) :
"pattern-painted ware" and "Urfirnis Ware". This is CHRONOLOGICALLY
correct...
But, taking into account the prospect of the "Cultural labeling", the
same paper indicates explicitly that the "Urfirnis" is a "Cycladic
version" of the Mainland Pottery, and implicitly that the
"pattern-painted ware" is (when not imported) a "Cycladic version" of
the Cretan Pottery...
That *only* the "Stamped and/or Incised Black Burnished Ware" is truly
CHARACTERISTIC of the "KS-Culture" has become obvious since in 1977,
when the Renfrew's definition has been improved by Christos Doumas,
mainly with the introduction of the "Kampos Group", which appears - in
a CHRONOLOGICAL prospect - as labeling the "early ECII Period"
(Doumas) or the "Transitional ECI/II Period" (Peter Warren). AND THERE
IS NO "PAINTED POTTERY" of any kind in the "Kampos Group", which is at
the origin of the "Keros-Syros Culture" !...This is what I wanted to
express in my preceding post..
I am not sure that your total ignorance of the Cycladic Pottery types
will allow you to understand this lenghty lecture... But, at least,
I've tried, for once, to teach you something you ignored ...
>
> >dark burnished pottery, with stamped or incised decoration!..
> >Where is the difference with the Vinca Pottery ?..
>
> Aside from the fact that the vinca pottery is dark and burnished
> while the Keros-Syros pottery is unburnished and painted light
> there are also differences in shape, utility and decoration.
TOTALLY WRONG ! See hereabove.
>
> > Only in the new STAMPING technique. But the OLD incised
> >technique of decoration has survived...
>
> The Keros-Syros pottery is not stamped, it is incised.
Here you go again with STUPID STATEMENTS !!! Have you ever had a look
at some "Frying pans", for instance ?...
> >
> >> and the
> >> pottery of Crete c 1750 BC is fine, light grey and polished.
> >
> >IRRELEVANT !
>
> Its entirely relevent if you want to claim there is a linkage
> to anything on Crete...such as the Phaistos Disk...
>
STUPID REMARK ! Are you really that dumb, not to make the difference
between the MINOAN POTTERY found at Phaistos and an IMPORTED object,
the Phaistos Disk ?..
grapheus
steve
>
>whi...@shore.net (steve) wrote in message news:<dohv7.2651$v6.3...@news.shore.net>...
>> In article <9421101.01100...@posting.google.com>, grap...@my-deja.com says...
>> >
>> >Another "approximative knowledge" from Steve !.. Surprising for a guy
>> >who pretend to have studied J.F.'s work !...
>> >
>> >whi...@shore.net (steve) wrote in message news:<YX6v7.2632$v6.3...@news.shore.net>...
>> >
>> >> As I recall the Disk was found in the course of an archaeological
>> >> excavation of the minoan palace library at Phaistos by Luigi Pernier.
>> >> where it was found in close association to tablets of Linear A.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Surely not a "library" !.. The local was a vault, which by comparison
>> >with the similar Minoan buildings has been recognized by
>> >archaeologists as a "Temple Depository"... The rest of your sentence
>> >is correct... As for the motive why the Disk has been found there, see
>> >J.F.'s book on p. 167, with reference to F. Carinci...
>>
>> While it's ok if you want to call it a temple depository,
>
>This is not a fancy of mine !.. It has been recognized as such by all
>the specialists !
http://www.libraries.gr/Images/FAISTOS_P59.jpg>
"The Phaistos Disc, found in the Minoan palace at Phaistos,
probably comes from a cultural environment unknown to us
in which the use of writing was common."
<http://www.libraries.gr/Images/FAISTOS_P49.jpg>
"Linear A tablet (KH 11), recording quantities of wine,
sheep and other agricultural products. Found at Chania,
ancient Kydonia (1450 BC).
<http://www.libraries.gr/Images/BIBLIOTHIKI_P215.jpg>
The building appears to have always been called the Minoan Palace
it was located near the adjacent chapel of Hagia Triada.
"The palace has been excavated by Italian Archaeologists.
Its importance lies not only in its size but in the fact
that we have there a clear stratigraphical sequence of
two successive palaces.
This is of great consequence for our understanding of
Minoan history and for our reconstruction of the major
phases of Minoan civilization.
We know that there were two palace periods.
The period of the old palaces ( c.1900-1700 BC) and
the period of the new palaces (c 1650-1400 BC).
The old palaces were destroyed by earthquakes, and that
made the Cretans rebuild them on an even grander scale.
Although such early palaces existed also at Knossos, Malia
and Zakros, it is mostly at Phestos that we have their
visible remains.
One can easily observe the existence of the two different
Palaces built one on top of the ruins of the previous.
A destructive earthquake around 1700 BC brought the
old palace to an end.
Much of the palace has been destroyed, particularly on
its south side where it has been eroded away.
It was a complex structure with five different, independent
but still coordinated units that had separate functions.
Included were magazines and workshops indicating its role
as industrial and trade center."
http://www.kriti.net/phaistos.htm
>> why a building
>> identified as a "palace" would have a "temple" depository
>> might be interesting to see you try and explain.
>> Most ancient buildings of substance had libraries in their basements.
>> The vault where the palace kept its books and records, contracts,
>> accounts, and calendars typically had sturdy wooden shelves on
>> which clay tablets were stacked. This was the case with the
>> Minoan palace at Phaistos.
>
>That is what YOU say !... No serious archaeologist will agree !.. No
>"library" has been found in the (destroyed) Palace of Phaistos !..
>Please, be informed correctly !..Read good books on the subject !..
Magazines
All four palaces are distinguished by having large areas
of their ground-floor plans devoted to storage facilities.
Mallia perhaps has more in the way of such storage facilities
than any other palace, certainly in terms of the ratio between
the area of the ground floor devoted to storage and the total
area of the palace at this level.
At Knossos and Mallia the main series of magazines open to the
west off a long north-south corridor in the west wing of each
palace.
At Knossos magazines are virtually restricted to the area just
inside the west facade, but at Mallia they occur inside the
west facade, in the east wing, and also in the northeast quarter.
At Phaistos, the major magazines run north-south on either side
of a broad east-west corridor located in the west wing just south
of the monumental west entrance into the palace.
Major magazines do not seem to be a feature of the palace at Zakro,
but there is a group of somewhat less imposing magazines located
in the northwest corner of the palace there.
At Knossos, Phaistos, and Mallia, the exterior face of the west
magazines constitutes the west facade of the palace, the most
carefully built of all the palace facades.
These west facades are characterized by major projections and
recessions which correspond to groups or "blocks" of magazines
on the interior.
Normally at or near the middle of the west facade of such a
"block" is a shallow recess which, Graham has argued, indicates
the location of a window embrasure at the level of the second
floor or "Piano Nobile" (see below).
Alternating projections and recessions are also a feature of
the Protopalatial retaining wall constituting the northern limit
of the theatral area at Phaistos as well as of the contemporary
west facade of the palace building at that site.
>> The Phaistos Disk was found in close association to tablets of Linear A
>
>NO ! Not to "tablets" ! To ONE tablet !.. Please, be informed before
>playing to the professor !..
There was one Tablet of Linear A at Knossos, the rest are at Phaistos.
from "The Decipherment of Linear B by John Chadwick"
"The writing Evans found at Crete dating c 2000-1650 BC consisted
of a pictorial script Evans called hieroglyphic". "This was the
same script used on the many seal stones found on Crete."
"A hieroglyphic tablet from Phaistos after comparison with similar
linear B tablets was found to record quantities of four commodities
wheat, oil, olives and figs."
"The next stage dating from c 1750-1450 Evans called linear B
because the hieroglyphic scripts glyphs have now been reduced
to mere outlines."
"At some stage Linear A was replaced by Linear B which so far
has only been found at one site in Crete. These are firmly
dated at c 1400 BC by the destruction of the Mycenean II
palace they were found in."
"*Linear A at Phaistoes* overlaps Linear B at Knossos but
generally seems to fade out c 1450 BC. Almost all the
clay tablets found at Knossos were in Linear B."
"Here is what Evans originally called the room where
they were found."...from the room called after them
*the room of the Chariot Horses*"
"*120 tablets* were published in a book called
"The Palace of Minos""
"The Phaistos Disk was found in the excavation
of the Minoan Palace at Phaistos."
"A related script was in use in Cyprus and it
is called Cypro-Minoan. The early 15th century BC
date suggests affinities with Linear A."
"Classical Cypriot is also related to Linear B
and was used in its decipherment."
"The conclusion of Evans was that the culture
of Minoan Crete was totally different from
Mycenean Greece."
>> There was no dark burnished Vinca pottery, or Cycladic frying pans, or
>> any artifact of Anatolia.
>>
>So what ???? The Disk has NOTHING to do with the Minoan Civilization
>!.. Can you put this into your head ?..
The Disk is an artifact of Phaistos Crete found in a magazine
of the Minoan Palace basement. Nothing like it in terms of
form or technique has been found anywhere in the ancient
world, although its script is associated with Classical Cypriot
Akkadian, Egyptian and Kassite Kuderu having 10 glyphs that match
exactly other scripts. Those glyphs also match Linear B.
>
>grapheus
steve
grapheus
scholars!..
You are confusing the Palace at Phaistos with the Hagia Triada Villa,
the Cretan Hieroglyphic Script with the Linear A script, etc.
I have never met an ignorant guy, as arrogant and stupid as you are
!.. Your apparent "knowledge" is ALWAYS, whatever the subject, a
superficial coating masking a deep ignorance !..
whi...@shore.net (steve) wrote in message news:<XCqv7.2710$v6.3...@news.shore.net>...
> In article <9421101.01100...@posting.google.com>, grap...@my-deja.com says...
> >
> >whi...@shore.net (steve) wrote in message news:<dohv7.2651$v6.3...@news.shore.net>...
> >> In article <9421101.01100...@posting.google.com>, grap...@my-deja.com says...
> >> >
> >> >Another "approximative knowledge" from Steve !.. Surprising for a guy
> >> >who pretend to have studied J.F.'s work !...
> >> >
> >> >whi...@shore.net (steve) wrote in message news:<YX6v7.2632$v6.3...@news.shore.net>...
> >> >
> >> >> As I recall the Disk was found in the course of an archaeological
> >> >> excavation of the minoan palace library at Phaistos by Luigi Pernier.
> >> >> where it was found in close association to tablets of Linear A.
> >> >
> >> >Surely not a "library" !.. The local was a vault, which by comparison
> >> >with the similar Minoan buildings has been recognized by
> >> >archaeologists as a "Temple Depository"... The rest of your sentence
> >> >is correct... As for the motive why the Disk has been found there, see
> >> >J.F.'s book on p. 167, with reference to F. Carinci...
> >>
> >> While it's ok if you want to call it a temple depository,
> >
> >This is not a fancy of mine !.. It has been recognized as such by all
> >the specialists !
>
> http://www.libraries.gr/Images/FAISTOS_P59.jpg>
> "The Phaistos Disc, found in the Minoan palace at Phaistos,
> probably comes from a cultural environment unknown to us
> in which the use of writing was common."
So what ?.. Surely, the use of writing was common at that time in the
Aegean !.. Does it means that the vault where the Disk has been found
with ONE tablet in Linear A a "library" ?.. NO !
>
> <http://www.libraries.gr/Images/FAISTOS_P49.jpg>
> "Linear A tablet (KH 11), recording quantities of wine,
> sheep and other agricultural products. Found at Chania,
> ancient Kydonia (1450 BC).
What the hell has this tablet FROM KHANIA to do with the problem ???..
Have you got a look at a map of Crete ?...
> <http://www.libraries.gr/Images/BIBLIOTHIKI_P215.jpg>
>
> The building appears to have always been called the Minoan Palace
> it was located near the adjacent chapel of Hagia Triada.
>
Yes, it has been called "a Palace" by Evans. Was it really one ?.. The
question is still disputed... But I will not argue about that ...
Many THANKS, Steve, for the lecture !... But what is the use of it in
the problem?.. Just probably to make YOU familiar with what the other
readers already know!..
> > No "library" has been found in the (destroyed) Palace of Phaistos !..
> > Please, be informed correctly !..Read good books on the subject !..
>
> Magazines
> All four palaces are distinguished by having large areas
> of their ground-floor plans devoted to storage facilities.
>
SO WHAT ?..
THANKS again, Steve, for this new lecture on the Minoan Palaces !..
What is the use of it ? Just to make you familiar with what others
already know, I suppose!..
> >> The Phaistos Disk was found in close association to tablets of Linear A
> >
> >NO ! Not to "tablets" ! To ONE tablet !.. Please, be informed before
> >playing to the professor !..
>
> There was one Tablet of Linear A at Knossos, the rest are at Phaistos.
YOU HAVE TOTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD what you have read !.. 40 tablets
written in Linear A have been found at Knossos, versus more than 1,000
found IN THE PHAISTOS AREA. In the "Palace of Phaistos" itself, less
than 50 tablets in Linear A have been found. The one found a few
centimeters from the Disk is known by the specialists as PH 1. And it
was the UNIQUE tablet accompagning the Disk !.. We are far from the
tens of tablets found in a "library" !!!
>
> from "The Decipherment of Linear B by John Chadwick"
>
> "The writing Evans found at Crete dating c 2000-1650 BC consisted
> of a pictorial script Evans called hieroglyphic". "This was the
> same script used on the many seal stones found on Crete."
>
What the hell has the "Cretan Hieroglyphic Script" to do here ???
> "A hieroglyphic tablet from Phaistos after comparison with similar
> linear B tablets was found to record quantities of four commodities
> wheat, oil, olives and figs."
> "The next stage dating from c 1750-1450 Evans called linear B
> because the hieroglyphic scripts glyphs have now been reduced
> to mere outlines."
> "At some stage Linear A was replaced by Linear B which so far
> has only been found at one site in Crete. These are firmly
> dated at c 1400 BC by the destruction of the Mycenean II
> palace they were found in."
> "*Linear A at Phaistoes* overlaps Linear B at Knossos but
> generally seems to fade out c 1450 BC. Almost all the
> clay tablets found at Knossos were in Linear B."
> "Here is what Evans originally called the room where
> they were found."...from the room called after them
> *the room of the Chariot Horses*"
> "*120 tablets* were published in a book called
> "The Palace of Minos""
>
THANKS again for the lecture, Steve !.. But I've to make the same
remark as hereabove !..
>
> "The Phaistos Disk was found in the excavation
> of the Minoan Palace at Phaistos."
>
YES ! In the afternoon of July 3d, 1908 !..
> "A related script was in use in Cyprus and it
> is called Cypro-Minoan. The early 15th century BC
> date suggests affinities with Linear A."
YES !.. And you should read the papers that J.Faucounau has written
concerning this type of script, in particular in "Archaeologia Cypria"
1994 !.. Strange that a guy like you, who pretends to be familiar with
J.F.'s work, seems not to know his papers on Cypro-Minoan !..
>
> "Classical Cypriot is also related to Linear B
> and was used in its decipherment."
>
YES ! You are making progress !
> "The conclusion of Evans was that the culture
> of Minoan Crete was totally different from
> Mycenean Greece."
>
What the hell has this to do with the problem ?..
> >> There was no dark burnished Vinca pottery, or Cycladic frying pans, or
> >> any artifact of Anatolia.
> >>
> >So what ???? The Disk has NOTHING to do with the Minoan Civilization
> >!.. Can you put this into your head ?..
>
> The Disk is an artifact of Phaistos Crete found in a magazine
> of the Minoan Palace basement. Nothing like it in terms of
> form or technique has been found anywhere in the ancient
> world, although its script is associated
What do you mean by "ASSOCIATED" ?.. That some glyphs of the Disk are
similar to the scripts you quote ?.. This is a STUPID reasoning !..
You may find a lot of other scripts - including Eskimo ! - which have
a few "similar glyphs". Because
there are not so many ways to represent a "fish", a "child" or a "ram"
!...
> with Classical Cypriot
WRONG ! Classical Cypriot is a LINEAR script, not a hierglyphic one !
> Akkadian, Egyptian and Kassite Kuderu having 10 glyphs that match
> exactly other scripts.
SO WHAT ?.. As I said, this PROVES NOTHING concerning an eventual
kinship between script, or civilization, or language !..
> > Those glyphs also match Linear B.
> >
That is what YOU say !.. Surely, a glyph representing "a woman"
"matches" (as you say) another glyph representing a "woman" !... So,
one may find A FEW of such MEANINGLESS correspondences ( maybe as many
as 15% when one is "forcing" a bit the comparisons ! Some scholars did
try to go further in this direction. They ALL failed, not in
deciphering the Disk, but in showing that their "decipherment" was
correct !).
grapheus
grapheus
I wrote this from memory, but after checking Renfrew's book and
papers, I have to correct a small mistake I made : Instead of : " This
scholar included, at that time, in HIS definition, the "Kastri Group"
and the "Kampos Group", so that some "painted pottery" was included in
the assemblage" , please read :
"This scholar included, at that time, in HIS definition, the "Kastri
Group", so that some "painted pottery was included in the assemblage.
As for the "Kampos Group", he - wrongly- rattached it to the
"Grotta-Pelos Culture"."
Sorry for the unfaithful account of the old 1972 Renfrew's
classification of the Cycladic Pottery!..
steve
>scholars!..
>You are confusing the Palace at Phaistos with the Hagia Triada Villa,
Linear A found at the Minoan Palace complex at Phaistos
(adjacent to the Haga Triada church) is closely associated
with the Phaistos Disk found at the Minoan palace complex
at Phaistos with one Linear A tablet found resting within
15 cm of the Phaistos Disk.
From Chadwick p 13
"*The largest single collection of documents* however
is a group of about 150 clay tablets from *a palace
a few miles from Phaistos* known in the absence of an
ancient name by that of the adjacent chapel of
Hagia Triada, (Holy, Trinity). It is quite clear
that these are mostly records of agricultural produce."
From Chadwick p 19
"...the famous Phaistos Disk. This was found by the
Italian excavators of *the Minoan palace at Phaistos*
in southern Crete in 1908"
"A hieroglyphic tablet from Phaistos after comparison with similar
linear B tablets was found to record quantities of four commodities
wheat, oil, olives and figs."
Linear B is closely associated with the hieroglyphic tablet.
Linear B is called Linear B because it replaces pictographic
or hieroglyphic glyphs with their outlines.
"The next stage dating from c 1750-1450 Evans called linear B
because the hieroglyphic scripts glyphs have now been reduced
to mere outlines."
"At some stage Linear A was replaced by Linear B which so far
has only been found at one site in Crete. These are firmly
dated at c 1400 BC by the destruction of the Mycenean II
palace they were found in."
"*Linear A at Phaistoes* overlaps Linear B at Knossos but
generally seems to fade out c 1450 BC. Almost all the
clay tablets found at Knossos were in Linear B."
"Here is what Evans originally called the room where
they were found."...from the room called after them
*the room of the Chariot Horses*"
"*120 tablets* were published in a book called
"*The Palace of Minos*"
Although such early palaces existed also at Knossos, Malia and
Zakros, it is mostly at Phestos that we have their visible remains.
One can easily observe the existence of the two different Palaces
built *one on top of the ruins of the previous*.
A destructive earthquake around 1700 BC brought the old palace
to an end. Much of the palace has been destroyed, particularly
on its south side where it has been eroded away.
It was a complex structure with five different, independent
but still coordinated units that had separate functions.
Included were magazines and workshops indicating its role
as industrial and trade center." http://www.kriti.net/phaistos.htm
>the Cretan Hieroglyphic Script with the Linear A script, etc.
...
>> >> >> As I recall the Disk was found in the course of an archaeological
>> >> >> excavation of the minoan palace library at Phaistos by Luigi Pernier.
>> >> >> where it was found in close association to tablets of Linear A.
>> >> >
>> >> >Surely not a "library" !.. The local was a vault, which by comparison
>> >> >with the similar Minoan buildings has been recognized by
>> >> >archaeologists as a "Temple Depository"... The rest of your sentence
>> >> >is correct... As for the motive why the Disk has been found there, see
>> >> >J.F.'s book on p. 167, with reference to F. Carinci...
>> >>
>> >> While it's ok if you want to call it a temple depository,
>> >
>> >This is not a fancy of mine !.. It has been recognized as such by all
>> >the specialists !
No, just the ones you read.
Most call it the excavation of the Minoan palace.
From Chadwick p 19
"...the famous Phaistos Disk. This was found by the
Italian excavators of *the Minoan palace at Phaistos*
in southern Crete in 1908"
Fauconeau doesn't like Chadwick because what Chadwick found
tears his pet theory to shreads.
>> http://www.libraries.gr/Images/FAISTOS_P59.jpg>
>> "The Phaistos Disc, found in the Minoan palace at Phaistos,
>> probably comes from a cultural environment unknown to us
>> in which the use of writing was common."
>
>So what ?.. Surely, the use of writing was common at that time in the
>Aegean !.. Does it means that the vault where the Disk has been found
>with ONE tablet in Linear A a "library" ?.. NO !
From Chadwick p 13
"*The largest single collection of documents* however
is a group of about 150 clay tablets from *a palace
a few miles from Phaistos* known in the absence of an
ancient name by that of the adjacent chapel of
Hagia Triada, (Holy, Trinity). It is quite clear
that these are mostly records of agricultural produce."
>> <http://www.libraries.gr/Images/FAISTOS_P49.jpg>
>> "Linear A tablet (KH 11), recording quantities of wine,
>> sheep and other agricultural products. Found at Chania,
>> ancient Kydonia (1450 BC).
>
>What the hell has this tablet FROM KHANIA to do with the problem ???..
>Have you got a look at a map of Crete ?...
If you were correct that these tabets represented loot,
we shouldn't expect to find them recording quantities
of wine, sheep and other agricultural products at Chania,
ancient Kydonia (1450 BC).
>
>> <http://www.libraries.gr/Images/BIBLIOTHIKI_P215.jpg>
>>
>> The building appears to have always been called the Minoan Palace
>> it was located near the adjacent chapel of Hagia Triada.
>>
>Yes, it has been called "a Palace" by Evans. Was it really one ?.. The
>question is still disputed... But I will not argue about that ...
I take it that when you started off this post by saying...
"You are confusing the Palace at Phaistos with the Hagia Triada Villa,"
you now realise that it was you who were confused.
I would like you to realise that you are incorrect when you allege
that Linear A was not associated with the Phaistos Disk.
>
>> > No "library" has been found in the (destroyed) Palace of Phaistos !..
>> > Please, be informed correctly !..Read good books on the subject !..
You should realise that a Library of Linear A agricultural accounts
is closely associated with the Phaistos Disk.
From Chadwick p 13
"*The largest single collection of documents* however
is a group of about 150 clay tablets from *a palace
a few miles from Phaistos* known in the absence of an
ancient name by that of the adjacent chapel of
Hagia Triada, (Holy, Trinity). It is quite clear
that these are mostly records of agricultural produce."
From Chadwick p 19
"...the famous Phaistos Disk. This was found by the
Italian excavators of *the Minoan palace at Phaistos*
in southern Crete in 1908"
>>
>> Magazines
>> All four palaces are distinguished by having large areas
>> of their ground-floor plans devoted to storage facilities.
>>
>SO WHAT ?..
So one function of the palace was to store agricultural goods
and to record the accounts of those goods on clay tablets.
You don't seem to realise that one function of archaeology is to create
a context in which the objects found in that context can be evaluated
according to the stratigraphy of the site. In this case the Minoan
Palace at Crete needs to be viewed in an agricultural context.
>
>> >> The Phaistos Disk was found in close association to tablets of Linear A
>> >
>> >NO ! Not to "tablets" ! To ONE tablet !.. Please, be informed before
>> >playing to the professor !..
From Chadwick p 13
"*The largest single collection of documents* however
is a group of about 150 clay tablets from *a palace
a few miles from Phaistos* known in the absence of an
ancient name by that of the adjacent chapel of
Hagia Triada, (Holy, Trinity). It is quite clear
that these are mostly records of agricultural produce."
From Chadwick p 19
"...the famous Phaistos Disk. This was found by the
Italian excavators of *the Minoan palace at Phaistos*
in southern Crete in 1908"
The Phaistos Disk was found in association with a large number
of Linear A tablets, one of which was within 15 cm of it.
>> There was one Tablet of Linear A at Knossos, the rest are at Phaistos.
>
>YOU HAVE TOTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD what you have read !.. 40 tablets
>written in Linear A have been found at Knossos, versus more than 1,000
>found IN THE PHAISTOS AREA.
I was speaking of the original discoveries published almost a century ago
but the point remains the same. The Phaistos Disk was found in association
with a large number of Linear A tablets.
>In the "Palace of Phaistos" itself, less than 50 tablets in Linear A
>have been found. The one found a few centimeters from the Disk is known by
>the specialists as PH 1. And it was the UNIQUE tablet accompagning the Disk
>!.. We are far from the tens of tablets found in a "library" !!!
The entire Minoan Palace complex is swimming in Linear A tablets. There
is not one "Palace of Phaistos" itself but rather a sucession of palaces
built one on top of another. All of them share the function of storing
and recording the storing of agricultural produce. There was nothing
unique about the Linear A tablet which happened to be found closest
to the Phaistos Disk.
>> from "The Decipherment of Linear B by John Chadwick"
>>
>> "The writing Evans found at Crete dating c 2000-1650 BC consisted
>> of a pictorial script Evans called hieroglyphic". "This was the
>> same script used on the many seal stones found on Crete."
>>
>What the hell has the "Cretan Hieroglyphic Script" to do here ???
Well for one thing if you look at fig3 and fig 4, Chadwick p 12 and 13,
you will note that in fig 3 the glyphs are arranged with the same
format as Fauconeau claims starts the Phaistos Disk.
The principle difference is that the panels are not curved
and the glyphs are inscribed rather than stamped.
_______________________________________________
| glyph set 1 : glyph set 2: glyph set 3 |
|_____________________________________:glyph |
|glyph6:glyph:glyph set 8 :glyph set 10\ glyph |
| set 7 glyph set 9:glyph set 11 \glyph:|On the Phaistos Disk
|_________________________________________\set 4|Fauconeau says start
reading here
If you look at fig.4 (which is Linear A tablet no. 114)
you will note many of the same glyphs are used:
the second glyph from set 2
the second glyph from set 3 and 8 (Greek Psi)
the second glyph from set 4 and 9
the glyph sets are divided into rows in both tablets
in both tablets quantities are given using vertical strokes for numbers
Both tablets use the Glyph Fauconeau numbers 39
The Linear A tablet also uses the glyph Fauconeau numbers 35
>> "A hieroglyphic tablet from Phaistos after comparison with similar
>> linear B tablets was found to record quantities of four commodities
>> wheat, oil, olives and figs."
>> "The next stage dating from c 1750-1450 Evans called linear B
>> because the hieroglyphic scripts glyphs have now been reduced
>> to mere outlines."
>> "At some stage Linear A was replaced by Linear B which so far
>> has only been found at one site in Crete. These are firmly
>> dated at c 1400 BC by the destruction of the Mycenean II
>> palace they were found in."
>> "*Linear A at Phaistoes* overlaps Linear B at Knossos but
>> generally seems to fade out c 1450 BC. Almost all the
>> clay tablets found at Knossos were in Linear B."
>> "Here is what Evans originally called the room where
>> they were found."...from the room called after them
>> *the room of the Chariot Horses*"
>> "*120 tablets* were published in a book called
>> "The Palace of Minos""
...
"*120 tablets* were published in a book called "The Palace of Minos""
>> "The Phaistos Disk was found in the excavation
>> of the Minoan Palace at Phaistos."
>
>YES ! In the afternoon of July 3d, 1908 !..
What difference does it make when it was found?
Are you suggesting the name or location of the
Minoan Palace complex was changed in the interim?
>
>> "A related script was in use in Cyprus and it
>> is called Cypro-Minoan. The early 15th century BC
>> date suggests affinities with Linear A."
>
>YES !.. And you should read the papers that J.Faucounau has written
>concerning this type of script, in particular in "Archaeologia Cypria"
>1994 !.. Strange that a guy like you, who pretends to be familiar with
>J.F.'s work, seems not to know his papers on Cypro-Minoan !..
Strange that you, in babbling about Fauconeaus proto-Ionian lunacy
have speculated about neolithic Vinca, and chalcolithic Keros-Cyros
and iron age Troy, but apparently neglected to consider the related
Cypro-Minoan script as a part of the linkage.
>
>> "Classical Cypriot is also related to Linear B
>> and was used in its decipherment."
>>
>YES ! You are making progress !
I see. So now does this mean that you want to expand
the proto-Ionian world to include Cyprus?
>
>> "The conclusion of Evans was that the culture
>> of Minoan Crete was totally different from
>> Mycenean Greece."
>>
>What the hell has this to do with the problem ?..
um...unless you want to remove the Mycenean Greeks from the Aegean
sphere of influence Fauconeau wants to use to tie together the Danube,
the Aegean, the Cycladies and Anatolia, (which is sort of like taking
the stuffing out of a pumpkin to leave a hollow shell), Evans is providing
you the information that refutes Fauconeaus proto-Ionian theory
>
>grapheus
steve
steve
>> >> any artifact of Anatolia.
>> >>
>> >So what ???? The Disk has NOTHING to do with the Minoan Civilization
>> >!.. Can you put this into your head ?..
>>
>> The Disk is an artifact of Phaistos Crete found in a magazine
>> of the Minoan Palace basement. Nothing like it in terms of
>> form or technique has been found anywhere in the ancient
>> world, although its script is associated
>
>What do you mean by "ASSOCIATED" ?..
http://csf.colorado.edu/jwsr/archive/vol2/v2_nb.htm
>That some glyphs of the Disk are
>similar to the scripts you quote ?.. This is a STUPID reasoning !..
>You may find a lot of other scripts - including Eskimo ! - which have
>a few "similar glyphs". Because
>there are not so many ways to represent a "fish", a "child" or a "ram"
Chadwick p 23
"Seven signs can be easily equated, and there are others showing
various degrees of resemblence"
>> with Classical Cypriot
>
>WRONG ! Classical Cypriot is a LINEAR script, not a hierglyphic one !
"The Egyptians never reduced their writing to an alphabet and the same
was until comparatively recently believed to be true for cuneiform.
Both systems made some apparent progress towards an alphabet.
The Egyptian scribes developed an acrophonic pseudo-alphabet
and there was the cuneiform alphabet discovered at Ugarit.
considered below.
The Egyptian pseudo-alphabet consisted of twenty-four consonants;
it was in use for nearly-alphabetic transcription of foreign names
in the Middle Kingdom, that is during the early 2nd millennium BC.
(Naveh 1987: 1).
Much more importantly in the case of cuneiform was the discovery
of Ugarit, from the excavations begun by the French in 1929 at
Ras Shamra on the North Syrian coast.
Ugarit was a capital city which was at the height of its prosperity
from about 1450 to 1200 BC and was destroyed in the 12th century.
When the large temple was excavated, the high priest's library
produced a very considerable number of texts written on clay tablets.
These were both in Babylonian cuneiform and in a hitherto unknown
cuneiform script. Similarly to the north-west Semitic writing
(found in much the same general area), the new script turned out
to be purely alphabetic with no syllable signs, ideograms or
determinatives.
Several copies of a 30-character alphabet were found representing
twenty seven consonants and three vowels.
*The texts found at Ras Shamra were remarkably diverse in script
and language: four languages, Ugaritic, Akkadian, Sumerian and
Hurrian, and seven different scripts, Egyptian and Hittite
hieroglyphic, Cypro-Minoan, Sumerian, Akkadian, Hurrian and
Ugaritic cuneiform.*
The origin of the Ugaritic script remains a mystery.
Driver interpreted it as an experimental attempt to adapt the cuneiform
to the alphabetic system in the light of the Phoenician alphabet.
Doblhofer notes that Jensen (described as the broadest alphabet
scholar of the century) in 1935 considered that the problem of
the origin of Ugaritic cuneiform had not been solved.
No great advance has taken place since then.
Investigators have variously considered Ugaritic forms as an imitation
or development of the northern Semitic alphabet, as a derivation from
so-called Sinaitic writing, or even as a simplification and reduction
of the Babylonian syllabic signs. "All these attempts can be considered
as failures.
Another more plausible theory is... that the Ras Shamra cuneiform script
is not an inherited and adapted system but a free creation, the autonomous
invention of a man who, while knowing the north Semitic alphabet...
was used to writing with the aid of a sharpened reed on wet clay tablets"
(Doblhofer 1973: 216-217).
Even this account is open to doubt - the relative dating of the Ugaritic
and the Semitic alphabets presents a problem.
The oldest inscriptions in the Phoenician alphabetic writing date from
ca. 1000 B.C., the earliest Ugaritic script is thought to date from
about 1500 BC.
Origin of the Semitic/Phoenician alphabet
Neither the Egyptian pseudo-alphabet nor the Ugaritic cuneiform alphabet
became widely used or appears to have survived for long.
The successful alphabet was, of course, the Phoenician, ultimately
adopted (with additions and variations) by the Greeks and Romans and
which we use today. The debate over the centuries has been about the
manner in which this alphabet originated and spread and, in particular,
its relation to earlier writing systems. The traditionally accepted view
has been that whilst syllabaries were developed independently in various
parts of the world, alphabetic writing was invented only once, "a conscious
and free creation by one man" (Jensen, following Bauer, 1970: 270).
Diringer also concludes that the alphabet has been invented only once,
though whether this is correct depends on how one categorises the Ugaritic script.
The Greeks and Romans considered five different peoples as the possible
inventors of the alphabet they used - the Phoenicians, Egyptians, Assyrians,
Cretans and Hebrews.
Modern views regarding the ultimate origin of the alphabet are almost as numerous.
There still remain a the Egyptian theory, the Cretan theory, the Sumerian,
the 'geometric' theory.
The most favoured account sees the North Semitic alphabet as the earliest
known form of alphabet and dates its appearance to the first half of the
second millennium B.C.
However, this leaves the further question whether the alphabet was an
unheralded invention or in some way developed from a previous writing
ystem, specifically from the Egyptian or the Sumerian.
Martinet has recently commented:
"on peut hésiter entre le sumérien et l'égyptien" (Martinet 1993: 22).
The theory which has for many years commanded the greatest degree of
support has been that the alphabet is one more step (though obviously
a most important one) in a continuous process of refinement and
conventionalisation of writing. The endeavour has been to discover
*evidence of the gradual steps by which scripts which initially were
pictographic became formalised progressively and ultimately converted
into the non-representational letters of the Roman alphabet*.
In the absence largely of any more likely source, the most strenuous
efforts have been made to establish *a connection between
Egyptian hieroglyphs and the earliest Semitic forms*.
Geoffrey Driver, who was Professor of Semitic Philology at Oxford,
argued for *an essentially Egyptian origin for the North Semitic alphabet*.
Nevertheless he concluded on the origin of the alphabet:
"Who first took this step is and may always remain unknown;
all that can be said is that he or they were sprung in all
probability from one or other of the Semitic peoples who came
into contact with the Egyptians c. 2500- 1500 B.C....
*the invention was developed in Palestine and perfected
on the Phoenician coast.*
*It survived to be carried by the Phoenicians overseas to Greece,*
whence it passed to the nations of the western hemisphere"
.(Driver, 1954: 196).
The other main hypothesis, evolved after the discoveries at Ugarit,
argued for development of the Semitic/Phoenician alphabet from
the cuneiform system.
Here one has to make a distinction between two issues:
the origination of the principle of the alphabet, that is,
the production of a symbolic system which represents by
single characters a limited number of distinct speech sounds
(rather than words, ideas, or syllables) and, on the other hand,
the origin of the particular forms and sound-values which
ultimately went to form the alphabet as we know it.
The Egyptian pseudo-alphabet, in effect and probably without any
deliberate intention, constituted such a restricted set of characters
(though without vowels).
The Ugaritic cuneiform alphabet included some vowels as well as a full set
of consonants and could more justifiably be thought to express the genuine
alphabetic principle.
Ugaritic characters, however, with the sound-values attached to them,
apparently never gained wide acceptance any more than did the
Egyptian pseudo-alphabet.
If one compares the characters in these two scripts with the
North Semitic set of characters, It seems pretty obvious that
neither the Egyptian pseudo-alphabet nor the Ugaritic alphabet
can plausibly be seen as precursors of the forms which the
characters of the alphabet took - though there is more of
a query about the relation between the order of the Ugaritic
characters and the order of the North Semitic alphabet.
The earliest evidenced abecedary - that is, letters written
in the fixed alphabetic order - undoubtedly comes from Ugarit
and *dates back to the 16th century B.C*.(Naveh, 1982: 1)
Diringer suggests that the north-western Semitic inventor
or inventors (Canaanites, Hebrews, or Phoenicians) of the
alphabet were influenced by Egyptian writing ;
he thinks that they were probably also acquainted with most
of the scripts current in the eastern Mediterranean.
He suggests that the original letters were probably conventional
signs and not pictures used as ideograms.
"The great achievement in the creation of the alphabet was not
the invention of signs but the inner working principle...
each sound represented by one symbol and each symbol
generally represents one sound"(Diringer 1976: 619).
This is arguable - *the Egyptians and the Ugaritians* had more or
less achieved 'the alphabetic principle'.
What made the alphabet ultimately successful was the selection
of the forms of the characters and the limitation of the number
of distinct sounds which the characters represented
(omitting all the refinements of vowel and consonantal sounds
which modern phonetics has identified).
Driver, after comparing the Semitic, Egyptian and cuneiform characters,
concluded that "the borrowing of the Phoenician alphabet can hardly
have been immediate....the Egyptian signs ... show few, if any,
close resemblances to the Phoenician letters... and
[when there is resemblance of signs] the value of the signs
does not generally agree."(Driver 1954; 139}
This one can see for oneself.
Detailed speculation about the relationships of the alphabet
has concentrated a great deal also on the names of the letters,
on the relation between the names and the forms of the letters
and on the variation in the forms of the letters in different
places and cultures.
Driver argued that the names must have come first;
"if the signs had preceded the names, there would be no reason
why the letters should take any particular forms; their forms
therefore were based on their names...
The names must be regarded as going back to the very beginnings
of the alphabet." (Driver, 1954: 152, 160).
In this he assumed that the forms must have been derived,
not original inventions, but the relation between form and name
in fact is highly speculative - "the Aramaic and Arabic name
for n is nun 'fish'... but... the sign at no stage...
resembles a fish.
If then a fish is meant, it must have been an eel...
[the sign for qop koppa ] has been thought to be
from the word for bird-trap but is generally supposed
to be the Hebrew for monkey" (Driver 1954: 168).
Diringer, on the other hand, contends that the principle governing
the conventional names of the letters was acrophony; names were not
derived from pictographic representations of the letters but were
an artificial mnemonic device.
Jensen concludes that the meanings brought forward up to now
for the Semitic names of the alphabet "belong in the realm of
pure concept- guessing".(Jensen 1970: 269)
There has been equally various speculation about the factors
determining the order of the alphabet and argument about whether
or not the order has any special significance.
Driver has a useful discussion of this.
"The order of the Phoenician alphabet is attested by the evidence
of the Hebrew scriptures [acrostic Psalms] and confirmed by
external authority.. [the step at Lachish]...
The most fantastic reasons for the order of the letters have been
suggested based, for example, on astral or lunar theories, even
to the extent of using South-Semitic meanings of cognate words
to explain the North-Semitic names.
Another method has been to seek for mnemonic words which the
successive letters when combined into words may spell out
[ab gad father grandfather -from different language dialects]
(Driver, 1954: 181)
The order of the alphabet has recently been explained as representing
a didactic poem.... The latest suggestion is that the order of
the letters of the Semitic alphabet is based on the notation of
the Sumerian musical scales". (Driver, 1954: 268)
Diringer briefly remarks: "As to the order of the letters,
various theories have been propounded, but here again
[as for the names of the letters] it is highly probable
that the matter has no particular significance...
There is some appearance of phonetic grouping in the order
of the letters of the North Semitic alphabet, but this may be
accidental(Diringer 1968: 169-170).
Finally, in this very compressed survey of debate about the alphabet,
there has been some puzzlement about the source of variations in the
forms of the alphabetic characters in different places and cultures. -
so to say, errors in transmission.
Herodotus says that the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus introduced
into Greece upon their arrival a great variety of arts, among the rest
that of writing "And originally they shaped their letters exactly like
all the other Phoenicians, but afterwards, in course of time, they
changed by degrees their language, and together with it the form
likewise of their characters".(1858: 25)
Individual signs in early Greek inscriptions frequently vary so much
in form that it is clearly impossible to speak of a single Greek alphabet
in this early period; the borrowing and adaptation of the Phoenician writing
took place independently in the various areas of the Greek world (Gelb 180).
Naveh says the fact that the archaic Greek alphabet
had not one set of letters but various local forms
also poses a problem;
"we know that the Phoenician script was a uniform one,
without regional variations" (Naveh 182)
And there are some more notorious and unexplained variations
in supposedly descendant alphabets, particularly the runic and
glagolitic alphabets. The order of the runes differs completely
from the Semitic, Greek, Etruscan and Latin alphabets.
Jensen comments
"where do the strange names of the runes come from?
And their special order?
And the supplementary signs of the runic alphabet?"
Speculation about the origin of the runic alphabet includes
"another hypothesis, the native originality of the runes as
primordial Germanic script"
(Jensen 1970: 573-574) Diringer comments that the origin of the runes
offers many difficult problems and speculates that it might be from
a North Etruscan Alpine alphabet.(Diringer 1976: 625)
The glagolitic alphabet is another puzzle: an alphabet with 40 letters,
in form very unlike the Greek or Cyrillic letters.
http://www.percepp.demon.co.uk/alphabet.htm
>
>> Akkadian, Egyptian and Kassite Kuderu having 10 glyphs that match
>> exactly other scripts.
>
>SO WHAT ?.. As I said, this PROVES NOTHING concerning an eventual
>kinship between script, or civilization, or language !..
What you should take away from this long lecture is that the
pictographic and hieroglyphic forms became alphabetic or linear
over a long period of time. They are ultimately sourced back
through Phoenician and Ugartic to Sumerian pictographs, and
through North Semitic scripts to Egyptian hieroglyphics.
The hieroglyphic forms can be seen in the first alphabetic scripts.
>
>> > Those glyphs also match Linear B.
>> >
>That is what YOU say !.. Surely, a glyph representing "a woman"
>"matches" (as you say) another glyph representing a "woman" !...
Its not just a woman, its a very specific bare brested goddess
whose image is as common at Ugarit as is the dotted pubic triangle
of Asherah, (Fauconeaus glyph No. 43 which he associates with a
musical instrument!!!) That's just plain ignorance.
Crete, Cyprus and Ugarit represent this bare breasted goddess
wearing a similar long layered skirt. She is often represented
holding either medicinal herbs or snakes whose pharmeceutical
commonality was the relief of pain and inducement of euphoria.
When it comes to recognizing images fauconeau gets low marks.
For example: The Fauconeau number 24 beehive shaped shrine
that can be readily recognized on Kassite Kuderu serving
the function of shrine, gets identified by Fauconeau as
a cow shed.
There is also his analysis of boats his glyph number 23 where he
can't tell stem from stern and confuses a mast and yard at the stern
of the Phaistos Disk boat with the fish on the stem of a Cycladic
boat fromSyros.
> So,one may find A FEW of such MEANINGLESS correspondences ( maybe as many
>as 15% when one is "forcing" a bit the comparisons ! Some scholars did
>try to go further in this direction. They ALL failed, not in
>deciphering the Disk, but in showing that their "decipherment" was
>correct !).
The correct correspondences are not meaningless but rather an
important clue to the correct associations in a decipherment.
>grapheus
steve
grapheus
your errors, you go on with them !... You are really a hopeless case
!...
whi...@shore.net (steve) wrote in message news:<PVEv7.2731$v6.3...@news.shore.net>...
> In article <9421101.01100...@posting.google.com>, grap...@my-deja.com says...
> >
> >Please, Steve, keep for yourself your MISREADING of the work of true
> >scholars!..
> >You are confusing the Palace at Phaistos with the Hagia Triada Villa,
>
> Linear A found at the Minoan Palace complex at Phaistos
> (adjacent to the Haga Triada church) is closely associated
> with the Phaistos Disk found at the Minoan palace complex
> at Phaistos
You are still confusing TWO different buildings : the "PALACE
Complex", where the Phaistos Disk has been found, and the "Hagia
Triada Villa" (or "Palace", if you prefer !.. But the word "Villa" is
better for avoiding confusion by people ill-informed, like you !)..
Both buildings are about TWO MILES apart (3 kilometers in straight
line). So, there is NO physical "close association" between the Disk
(found in the Palace) and the bulk of Linear A tablets (found in the
"Villa") !.. You statement is just FALSE...
Why are you REPEATING this useless lecture ?.. To learn it by heart
?.. Congratulations ! This is a good move...
> >> >> >> As I recall the Disk was found in the course of an archaeological
> >> >> >> excavation of the minoan palace library at Phaistos by Luigi Pernier.
> >> >> >> where it was found in close association to tablets of Linear A.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Surely not a "library" !.. The local was a vault, which by comparison
> >> >> >with the similar Minoan buildings has been recognized by
> >> >> >archaeologists as a "Temple Depository"... The rest of your sentence
> >> >> >is correct... As for the motive why the Disk has been found there, see
> >> >> >J.F.'s book on p. 167, with reference to F. Carinci...
> >> >>
> >> >> While it's ok if you want to call it a temple depository,
> >> >
> >> >This is not a fancy of mine !.. It has been recognized as such by all
> >> >the specialists !
>
> No, just the ones you read.
> Most call it the excavation of the Minoan palace.
>
ONCE AGAIN, you are showing your ignorance !.. I was talking about
the function of the "Vano 8" of the "Building 101", where the Disk has
been found : Please read L. Pernier's report, which has been accepted
by ALL archaeologists !.. I challenge you to find a single serious
scholar who has denied the function of the "Vano 8 " and of the
adjacent "vani" as "Temple Repository", and has supported your
"Library" interpretation !... (ANOTHER easy-to-win bet for me !)...
> From Chadwick p 19
>
> "...the famous Phaistos Disk. This was found by the
> Italian excavators of *the Minoan palace at Phaistos*
> in southern Crete in 1908"
>
YES. SO WHAT ?..
> Fauconeau doesn't like Chadwick because what Chadwick found
> tears his pet theory to shreads.
>
TOTALLY WRONG !.. As Chadwick had been unable to decipher the Disk, he
has always considered it as "undecipherable", and he acted with J.F.
as he acted with Steven Fischer... He died before the J.F.'s book was
published, and nobody knows what would have been his attitude after
looking at the PROOFS... I believe he would have been convinced... The
difference between him and you is that *he* was a true scholar ...
> >> http://www.libraries.gr/Images/FAISTOS_P59.jpg>
> >> "The Phaistos Disc, found in the Minoan palace at Phaistos,
> >> probably comes from a cultural environment unknown to us
> >> in which the use of writing was common."
> >
> >So what ?.. Surely, the use of writing was common at that time in the
> >Aegean !.. Does it means that the vault where the Disk has been found
> >with ONE tablet in Linear A was a "library" ?.. NO !
>
> From Chadwick p 13
>
> "*The largest single collection of documents* however
> is a group of about 150 clay tablets from *a palace
> a few miles from Phaistos* known in the absence of an
> ancient name by that of the adjacent chapel of
> Hagia Triada, (Holy, Trinity). It is quite clear
> that these are mostly records of agricultural produce."
>
> >> <http://www.libraries.gr/Images/FAISTOS_P49.jpg>
> >> "Linear A tablet (KH 11), recording quantities of wine,
> >> sheep and other agricultural products. Found at Chania,
> >> ancient Kydonia (1450 BC).
> >
> >What the hell has this tablet FROM KHANIA to do with the problem ???..
> >Have you got a look at a map of Crete ?...
>
> If you were correct that these tabets represented loot,
BUT WHO SAID THAT ?.. You are really stupid !.. Of course, the Linear
A tablets found in Crete are autochthonous !.. IT IS ONLY THE DISK
WHICH HAS BEEN IMPORTED!
> we shouldn't expect to find them recording quantities
> of wine, sheep and other agricultural products at Chania,
> ancient Kydonia (1450 BC).
YES. SO WHAT ?
> >> <http://www.libraries.gr/Images/BIBLIOTHIKI_P215.jpg>
> >>
> >> The building appears to have always been called the Minoan Palace
> >> it was located near the adjacent chapel of Hagia Triada.
> >>
> >Yes, it has been called "a Palace" by Evans. Was it really one ?.. The
> >question is still disputed... But I will not argue about that ...
>
> I take it that when you started off this post by saying...
> "You are confusing the Palace at Phaistos with the Hagia Triada Villa,"
> you now realise that it was you who were confused.
> >
ANOTHER STUPID REMARK of yours !.. It's YOU who have confused TWO
different buildings, more than two miles apart !.. I repeat : one is
the "Palace Complex", made of several buildings, some built on top of
another, older, destroyed building. The second is the "Hagia Triada
Villa", not destroyed by the Earthquake which partially destroyed the
"Palace", and situated several miles from it !..
Can you put this into your small brain ?..
Why are you REPEATING this useless lecture ?..
> >> >> why a building
> >> >> identified as a "palace" would have a "temple" depository
> >> >> might be interesting to see you try and explain.
> >> >> Most ancient buildings of substance had libraries in their basements.
> >> >> The vault where the palace kept its books and records, contracts,
> >> >> accounts, and calendars typically had sturdy wooden shelves on
> >> >> which clay tablets were stacked. This was the case with the
> >> >> Minoan palace at Phaistos.
> >> >
> >
> >Many THANKS, Steve, for the lecture !... But what is the use of it in
> >the problem?.. Just probably to make YOU familiar with what the other
> >readers already know!..
>
> I would like you to realise that you are incorrect when you allege
> that Linear A was not associated with the Phaistos Disk.
> >
What do you call "ASSOCIATED" ?.. If you mean that the Disk has been
found near a Linear A tablet, and therefore was contemporaneous with
this script, I FULLY AGREE. But if you mean that there is any "link"
between both scripts, I maintain that you are deadly wrong. The Sript
of the Disk HAS NOTHING TO DO with the Linear A Script, and more
generally with the Cretan Scripts !... Can you understand that ?..
> >> > No "library" has been found in the (destroyed) Palace of Phaistos !..
> >> > Please, be informed correctly !..Read good books on the subject !..
>
> You should realise that a Library of Linear A agricultural accounts
> is closely associated with the Phaistos Disk.
>
ONCE AGAIN : NO, NO and NO !..
> From Chadwick p 13
> "*The largest single collection of documents* however
> is a group of about 150 clay tablets from *a palace
> a few miles from Phaistos* known in the absence of an
> ancient name by that of the adjacent chapel of
> Hagia Triada, (Holy, Trinity). It is quite clear
> that these are mostly records of agricultural produce."
>
> From Chadwick p 19
> "...the famous Phaistos Disk. This was found by the
> Italian excavators of *the Minoan palace at Phaistos*
> in southern Crete in 1908"
> >>
> >> Magazines
> >> All four palaces are distinguished by having large areas
> >> of their ground-floor plans devoted to storage facilities.
> >>
> >SO WHAT ?..
>
> So one function of the palace was to store agricultural goods
> and to record the accounts of those goods on clay tablets.
> >
YES !.. And I repeat : SO WHAT ?..
And the function of archaeology is also to DISTINGUISH between what
belongs to the context and what has been IMPORTED !.. Even a 10 years
old child would understand that !..
> >> >> The Phaistos Disk was found in close association to tablets of Linear A
> >> >
> >> >NO ! Not to "tablets" ! To ONE tablet !.. Please, be informed before
> >> >playing to the professor !..
>
> From Chadwick p 13
>
> "*The largest single collection of documents* however
> is a group of about 150 clay tablets from *a palace
> a few miles from Phaistos* known in the absence of an
> ancient name by that of the adjacent chapel of
> Hagia Triada, (Holy, Trinity). It is quite clear
> that these are mostly records of agricultural produce."
>
> From Chadwick p 19
>
> "...the famous Phaistos Disk. This was found by the
> Italian excavators of *the Minoan palace at Phaistos*
> in southern Crete in 1908"
>
> The Phaistos Disk was found in association with a large number
> of Linear A tablets, one of which was within 15 cm of it.
>
ONCE AGAIN : NO, NO and NO !.. The Phaistos Disk Script HAS NOTHING TO
DO with the Linear A !.. THe "association" between the Phaistos Disk
and the Linear A Tablets is ONLY CHRONOLOGICAL : BOTH WERE
CONTEMPORANEOUS... Is it now clear for you, or shall I repeat it ?..
> >> There was one Tablet of Linear A at Knossos, the rest are at Phaistos.
> >
> >YOU HAVE TOTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD what you have read !.. 40 tablets
> >written in Linear A have been found at Knossos, versus more than 1,000
> >found IN THE PHAISTOS AREA.
>
> I was speaking of the original discoveries published almost a century ago
> but the point remains the same. The Phaistos Disk was found in association
> with a large number of Linear A tablets.
ONCE AGAIN : NO, NO and NO !.. See hereabove !..
>
> >In the "Palace of Phaistos" itself, less than 50 tablets in Linear A
> >have been found. The one found a few centimeters from the Disk is known by
> >the specialists as PH 1. And it was the UNIQUE tablet accompagning the Disk
> >!.. We are far from the tens of tablets found in a "library" !!!
>
> The entire Minoan Palace complex is swimming in Linear A tablets.
WRONG !.. I gave you the figures concerning the Linear A Tablets !..
Are you *also* unable to understand English ?..
> There
> is not one "Palace of Phaistos" itself but rather a sucession of palaces
> built one on top of another.
STUPID REMARK !.. There is ONE "Palace Complex", comprising several
buildings...And several miles away was the "Hagia Triada Villa"
(supposed by some scholars to have been a "Summer Residence") !..
> All of them share the function of storing
> and recording the storing of agricultural produce. There was nothing
> unique about the Linear A tablet which happened to be found closest
> to the Phaistos Disk.
>
Surely !. It was a Linear A tablet, as the others !..
> >> from "The Decipherment of Linear B by John Chadwick"
> >>
> >> "The writing Evans found at Crete dating c 2000-1650 BC consisted
> >> of a pictorial script Evans called hieroglyphic". "This was the
> >> same script used on the many seal stones found on Crete."
> >>
> >What the hell has the "Cretan Hieroglyphic Script" to do here ???
>
> Well for one thing if you look at fig3 and fig 4, Chadwick p 12 and 13,
> you will note that in fig 3 the glyphs are arranged with the same
> format as Fauconeau claims starts the Phaistos Disk.
> The principle difference is that the panels are not curved
> and the glyphs are inscribed rather than stamped. _______________________________________________
> | glyph set 1 : glyph set 2: glyph set 3 |
> |_____________________________________:glyph |
> |glyph6:glyph:glyph set 8 :glyph set 10\ glyph |
> | set 7 glyph set 9:glyph set 11 \glyph:|On the Phaistos Disk
> |_________________________________________\set 4|Fauconeau says start
> reading here
>
> If you look at fig.4 (which is Linear A tablet no. 114)
> you will note many of the same glyphs are used:
> the second glyph from set 2
> the second glyph from set 3 and 8 (Greek Psi)
> the second glyph from set 4 and 9
> the glyph sets are divided into rows in both tablet
> in both tablets quantities are given using vertical strokes for numbers
> Both tablets use the Glyph Fauconeau numbers 39
> The Linear A tablet also uses the glyph Fauconeau numbers 35
>
Steve, congratulations !.. You are discovering that it is ALWAYS easy
to find some "correspondences" between the Glyphs sets of two
"Hieroglyphic Scripts"!.. And it is easier - with a bit of imagination
- to find more "correspondences" between a Linear Script and a
Hieroglyphic Script. J.F. has shown, as a joke, that there was an
astonishing "correspondence" between the Phaistos Disk Script and...
the Hebrew Alphabet !!!
Such "correspondences" HAVE NO MEANING AT ALL.
> >> "A hieroglyphic tablet from Phaistos after comparison with similar
> >> linear B tablets was found to record quantities of four commodities
> >> wheat, oil, olives and figs."
> >> "The next stage dating from c 1750-1450 Evans called linear B
> >> because the hieroglyphic scripts glyphs have now been reduced
> >> to mere outlines."
> >> "At some stage Linear A was replaced by Linear B which so far
> >> has only been found at one site in Crete. These are firmly
> >> dated at c 1400 BC by the destruction of the Mycenean II
> >> palace they were found in."
> >> "*Linear A at Phaistoes* overlaps Linear B at Knossos but
> >> generally seems to fade out c 1450 BC. Almost all the
> >> clay tablets found at Knossos were in Linear B."
> >> "Here is what Evans originally called the room where
> >> they were found."...from the room called after them
> >> *the room of the Chariot Horses*"
> >> "*120 tablets* were published in a book called
> >> "The Palace of Minos""
>
> "*120 tablets* were published in a book called "The Palace of Minos""
>
> >> "The Phaistos Disk was found in the excavation
> >> of the Minoan Palace at Phaistos."
> >
> >YES ! In the afternoon of July 3d, 1908 !..
>
> What difference does it make when it was found?
> Are you suggesting the name or location of the
> Minoan Palace complex was changed in the interim?
>
No. I was just trying to show that you can still improve your
knowledge !..
> >> "A related script was in use in Cyprus and it
> >> is called Cypro-Minoan. The early 15th century BC
> >> date suggests affinities with Linear A."
> >
> >YES !.. And you should read the papers that J.Faucounau has written
> >concerning this type of script, in particular in "Archaeologia Cypria"
> >1994 !.. Strange that a guy like you, who pretends to be familiar with
> >J.F.'s work, seems not to know his papers on Cypro-Minoan !..
>
> Strange that you, in babbling about Fauconeaus proto-Ionian lunacy
> have speculated about neolithic Vinca, and chalcolithic Keros-Cyros
> and iron age Troy, but apparently neglected to consider the related
> Cypro-Minoan script as a part of the linkage.
>
ANOTHER STUPID REMARK of yours !.. 1)- As there is NO LINK between the
Phaistos Disk Script/Civilization and the Cretan Scripts/Civilization,
why should I talk about the Cypro-Minoan Script, which is a branch of
the Cretan Scripts ?...
2)- There *is*, on the contrary, a link between the Vinca Culture,
Troy, AND MAINLY the "Keros-Syros Culture", which is the "ancestor" of
the "Disk's Civilization". This is why these last cultures are
relevant in a discussion about the Proto-Ionians !...
> >> "Classical Cypriot is also related to Linear B
> >> and was used in its decipherment."
> >>
> >YES ! You are making progress !
>
> I see. So now does this mean that you want to expand
> the proto-Ionian world to include Cyprus?
>
NO, at least for the moment!.. As I said, there is NO LINK between the
Disk Script and the Cypro-Minoan Script. So, this aspect of the
Cypriot Civilization can be put aside in the present discussion... But
this does'n't mean that the *descendents* of the Proto-Ionians did not
play a role at Cyprus, six hundred years AFTER the time of the Disk...
But this is a pretty long story, which will be developped in the next
chapters of my "Proto-Ionian Theory"...
> >> "The conclusion of Evans was that the culture
> >> of Minoan Crete was totally different from
> >> Mycenean Greece."
> >>
> >What the hell has this to do with the problem ?..
>
> um...unless you want to remove the Mycenean Greeks from the Aegean
> sphere of influence Fauconeau wants to use to tie together the Danube,
> the Aegean, the Cycladies and Anatolia, (which is sort of like taking
> the stuffing out of a pumpkin to leave a hollow shell), Evans is providing
> you the information that refutes Fauconeaus proto-Ionian theory
>
Evans has provided NOTHING. His statement is even wrong, when one
considers the End of the Late Bronze Age !.. And he has refuted
NOTHING concerning the Proto-Ionian Theory !.. Would it be possible to
ask you to have a better look at the map at
<http://users.hol.gr/~dilos/anistor/vpoints/v013.htm>
So, you will (maybe !) notice that the Proto-Ionians on one part, the
Mycenaeans/Acheans on the other, have followed DIFFRENT PATHS for
coming from the Danube to Greece !.. I am sure that even a 10 years
old child would be able to follow the "arrows" marking the different
paths... But for you, I have some doubts ...
Let's just hope for the best ...
grapheus
steve
>> >scholars!..
>> >You are confusing the Palace at Phaistos with the Hagia Triada Villa,
>>
>> Linear A found at the Minoan Palace complex at Phaistos
>> (adjacent to the Haga Triada church) is closely associated
>> with the Phaistos Disk found at the Minoan palace complex
>> at Phaistos
>
>You are still confusing TWO different buildings : the "PALACE
>Complex", where the Phaistos Disk has been found, and the "Hagia
>Triada Villa" (or "Palace", if you prefer !.. But the word "Villa" is
>better for avoiding confusion by people ill-informed, like you !)..
>Both buildings are about TWO MILES apart (3 kilometers in straight
>line). So, there is NO physical "close association" between the Disk
>(found in the Palace) and the bulk of Linear A tablets (found in the
>"Villa") !.. You statement is just FALSE...
short answer:
Phaistos was not a building. It was a city state.
The site covered 18000 square meters. Its the entire site which is
known as the Minoan palace. Both the Linear A and Phaistos Disk
were found at the Minoan palace.
"The Italians have rediscovered the magnificent Minoan palace
of Phaistos with its great royal courts, the great staircases,
the theatre, the storerooms and the famous disk of Phaistos.
Many Linear A inscriptions were found by the archaeologists,
so they are still undecipherd. All we know about the site,
including its name, are based to the ancient writers and
findings from Knossos."
http://www.dragonridge.com/greece/phaistos.html
longer version:
"Palace of Phaistos
Phaistos is Minoan palace site situated on a hill with a commanding view
of the Mesara Plain to the south and west. It is about 60 km south of
Heraklion in the fertile Messara valley that is surrounded by mountain
ranges and the plain extends south to the Libyan sea.
Regular public transportation is available from Iraklion and Rethimnon.
During the Minoan times, Phaistos was a very important city-state,
being the second largest city after Knossos.
Where this great city once stood, there is now the village of Agios Ioannis,
buillt next to Phaistos.Today the village has 103 inhabitants.
According to mythology, Phaistos was the seat of king Radamanthis,
brother of king Minos. It was also the city that gave birth to the
great wise man and soothsayer Epimenidis, one of the seven wise men
of the ancient world.
The city also participated in the Trojan war and was an important
city-state in the Dorian period. Phaistos continued to flourish
during Archaic, Classical and Hellenistic times, but was destroyed
by the Gortynians during the 3rd century B.C.
Still, Phaistos existing even during the Roman period.
Phaistos had two ports, Matala and Kommos.
The archaeological investigation of the palace started in 1884
y the Italians F. Halbherr and A. Taramelli.
After the declaration of the independent Cretan State in 1898,
excavations were carried out by F. Halbherr and L. Pernier
in 1900-1904 and later, in 1950-1971, by Doro Levi, under
the auspices of the Italian Archaeological School at Athens.
The Italians have rediscovered the magnificent Minoan palace
of Phaistos with its great royal courts, the great staircases,
the theatre, the storerooms and the famous disk of Phaistos.
Many Linear A inscriptions were found by the archaeologists,
so they are still undecipherd. All we know about the site,
including its name, are based to the ancient writers and
findings from Knossos.
The first palace was built at 2000 BC, but traces of Neolithic
habitation have been found, so people lived here long before then.
This palace was destroyed at 1700 BC by an earthquake.
Rebuilt to be more luxurious and magnificent, it was destroyed again,
probably by another earthquake, at 1400 BC.
The palace dominated and controlled the Messara valley, with excellent
panoramic views, and it was the center of the city. It was also the
administrational and economical center of the area.
Goods for consumption and trade were kept in its huge storerooms.
The palace was surrounded by luxurious mansions and crowded urban
communities. Along with the surrounding settlements it covered
an area of 18000 square meters.
West Court at Phaistos, or theatral area. This is a large open area
with a monumental staircase to the east and many tiers of seating
to the north. The staircase leads to the Royal Apartments and
eventually to the Central Court. The tiers of seating are to
the left of the photo."
>grapheus
steve
grapheus
> >> >Please, Steve, keep for yourself your MISREADING of the work of true
> >> >scholars!..
> >> >You are confusing the Palace at Phaistos with the Hagia Triada Villa,
> >>
> >> Linear A found at the Minoan Palace complex at Phaistos
> >> (adjacent to the Haga Triada church) is closely associated
> >> with the Phaistos Disk found at the Minoan palace complex
> >> at Phaistos
> >
> >You are still confusing TWO different buildings : the "PALACE
> >Complex", where the Phaistos Disk has been found, and the "Hagia
> >Triada Villa" (or "Palace", if you prefer !.. But the word "Villa" is
> >better for avoiding confusion by people ill-informed, like you !)..
> >Both buildings are about TWO MILES apart (3 kilometers in straight
> >line). So, there is NO physical "close association" between the Disk
> >(found in the Palace) and the bulk of Linear A tablets (found in the
> >"Villa") !.. You statement is just FALSE...
>
> short answer:
>
> Phaistos was not a building. It was a city state.
>
> The site covered 18000 square meters.
Short Reply : A mathematical probllem for Steve-the-ignorant : 18000
square meters = 180 meters X 100 meters. HOW SUCH A SURFACE CAN
INCLUDE A SITE (the Hagia Triada Villa) SITUATED THREE THOUSANDS
METERS AWAY?
Waiting for your answer, Steve !..
grapheus
Ned Latham
> grapheus wrote:
> >
> > Chapter 2 : Linguistical Data :
> > The Disk has been written in Proto-Ionic.
> > This is contradictory with the "Risch-Chadwick Theory". But the
> > linguistical facts are against this last theory. In particular, there
> > are traces of "Proto-Ionisms" in Mycenaean Greek.
>
> of John Chadwick with National Geographic when he was
> trying to dissuade them from making complete asses of
> themselves, the Chadwick theory is that the Phaistos
> Disk is written in Medieval Japanese. Chadwick's _true_ theory
> was that the disk being unique and far too short, it
> was undecipherable. To make his point, he deciphered it
> as a legal document on wells and water rights, all in
> good Medieval Japanese.
ROFL!
Ned
--
* Democracy means "the people rule". *
* Fight for the power of assent. *
grapheus
Hi, Ned !
J.Faucounau has never denied that it was *possible* to "decipher" the
Disk in ANY language... So, John Chadwick was right on this particular
point... But the *essential difference* between the "Proto-Ionic
Solution" and *all the other* decipherments of the Disk is that the
former is PROVED by more than 30 pieces of evidence !.. This is the
point where Chadwick erred : as he has been unable himself to find the
correct solution (being blind because of his faith in the "Risch-
Chadwick Theory"), he stated that the Disk was "undecipherable" ...
Maybe you remember that the same thing was said by the Nazi
Cifer-Officers during the Second World War !... An example to be
meditated !..
Why, if you have some objections against the PROOFS in favour of the
Proto-Ionic Solution, don't you begin by studying *in detail* one of
them, the "astronomical" one, for instance ?.. (You may find a SUMMARY
- I insist on the word - of this PROOF in the thread "Re: Phaistos
Disk,the LAST WORD" of June 1st, 2001 on "sci.archaeology")... Good
luck for refuting it ! (And remember : there are many other evidences
of the same kind !)
regards
grapheus
steve
Phaistos was a city state.
Hagia Triada (or Agia Trias) is a modern village.
So is Festos another vestige of Phaistos the old city state,
which is located 1.8 miles from Hagia Triada. The Minoan Palace
is located in its suburbs, adjacent to the village of Hagia Triada.
Both the original excavations of the Minoan Palace complex
and the village took their name from an old church (Hagia Triada)
that was also located adjacent to the excavations.
There was a neolithic occupation, a larger pre-palatial complex,
a proto-palatial complex with over 100 buildings, a neo-palatial
complex of reduced size built amid the ruins of the older
complex, a Mycenean complex which essentially adds on to
the neo-palatial complex enlarging it to the size of the
proto-palatial complex, a geometric period occupation
which is another small addition on the perimeter of the
earlier occupations and a Helenic occupation which brings
the complex to its full extent.
More than 50 Linear A tablets were found in the same room of
the Minoan Palace as the Phaistos Disk. Others were in adjacent
rooms. Still others were in other rooms of the Palace itself
Still others were in the Palace complex which includes
storeooms, corridors and buildings of other periods.
A circle with diameter 1.8 miles and both Hagia Triada
and Festos on its circumference, contains the Minoan Palace,
the neolithic occupation, the larger pre-palatial complex,
the proto-palatial complex the neo-palatial complex
the Mycenean complex, the geometric period occupation
the Helenic occupation, the Phaistos Disk and
over 1000 Linear A tablets.
Though the modern village of Hagia Triada has a population
of about 138 persons, at one time Phaistos the city state
covered a very large area, including both Hagia Triada
and Festos. Phaistos even had ports at Komos and Matala
on the coast
>grapheus
steve
grapheus
> Ned
Oops ! Sorry, Ned, I gave you a wrong reference in my answer!.. Please
read (for the "Astronommical Proof") : Post n° 68 of June 12, 2001 in
the thread : "Re: Phaistos Disk, the LAST WORD".
I hope this correction will arrive before you have to read the entire
thread !..
With my apologies
grapheus
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> > Jacques Guy wrote:
> > > grapheus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Chapter 2 : Linguistical Data :
> > > > The Disk has been written in Proto-Ionic.
> > > > This is contradictory with the "Risch-Chadwick Theory". But the
> > > > linguistical facts are against this last theory. In particular, there
> > > > are traces of "Proto-Ionisms" in Mycenaean Greek.
> > >
> > > To my knowledge, judging from the personal correspondence
> > > of John Chadwick with National Geographic when he was
> > > trying to dissuade them from making complete asses of
> > > themselves, the Chadwick theory is that the Phaistos
> > > Disk is written in Medieval Japanese. Chadwick's _true_ theory
> > > was that the disk being unique and far too short, it
> > > was undecipherable. To make his point, he deciphered it
> > > as a legal document on wells and water rights, all in
> > > good Medieval Japanese.
> >
> > ROFL!
>
>
> J.Faucounau has never denied that it was *possible* to "decipher" the
> Disk in ANY language... So, John Chadwick was right on this particular
> point... But the *essential difference* between the "Proto-Ionic
> Solution" and *all the other* decipherments of the Disk is that the
> former is PROVED by more than 30 pieces of evidence !..
The other thing about such limited texts is that the "translations"
that can be produced can be made to fit any preconceived idea:
indeed they generally *result* from a preceonceived idea.
Sorry, but those "proofs" are no such thing. That's what Chadwick's
exercise illustraded.
> This is the
> point where Chadwick erred : as he has been unable himself to find the
> correct solution (being blind because of his faith in the "Risch-
> Chadwick Theory"), he stated that the Disk was "undecipherable" ...
Did he say that? Or did he say that it's undecipherable without further
texts of the same type?
> Maybe you remember that the same thing was said by the Nazi
> Cifer-Officers during the Second World War !... An example to be
> meditated !..
Did they say that?
Not that it matters, I suppose: they certainly behaved as if they
believed it.
But your example casts no light on this matter: the enigma code was
heavily used, and there was a positively *huge* amount of traffic for
the codebreakers at Bletchley Park to work on. Not only that, but the
cleartext was in a known language, the texts were in regular and
frequently repeated formats, and they contained names, some of which
were known, and aided in the deciphrement. A very different kettle
of fish than the Phaistos disc.
> Why, if you have some objections against the PROOFS in favour of the
> Proto-Ionic Solution, don't you begin by studying *in detail* one of
> them, the "astronomical" one, for instance ?.. (You may find a SUMMARY
> - I insist on the word - of this PROOF in the thread "Re: Phaistos
> Disk,the LAST WORD" of June 1st, 2001 on "sci.archaeology")...
Well, I didn't see a proof, or anything like one. One article from you
had some stuff about 13-day groupings and what not, but it was very
unconvincing, especially with the "probably" and the need to ignore one
of the signs. If that article is what you're referring to, you have no
proof. If not, can you give me a message ID?
> Good
> luck for refuting it ! (And remember : there are many other evidences
> of the same kind !)
On what I've seen, that's no recommendation. Sorry, but I think you're
barking up the wrong tree.
Ned Latham
> Ned Latham wrote:
> > Jacques Guy wrote:
> > >
> > > as a legal document on wells and water rights, all in
> > > good Medieval Japanese.
> >
> > ROFL!
>
> 1998). Open it page 44. Second column, last paragraph, fifth
> last line: "Crete's Phaistos Disc of 1600 BC, a large, carved
> stone disc". Large? Carved? Stone?
New Scientist? What were they smoking?
> Like the webmaster of
> http://www.champollion.nu comments: disc is "probably a typo for
> 'dish'!".
Ah. The Wonders of the Web.
Jorn Barger
> If that article is what you're referring to, you have no
> proof. If not, can you give me a message ID?
I've linked (and summarised) a lot of JF's theory at:
http://www.robotwisdom.com/science/phaistos/
grapheus
Otherwise, you would know that, except if you are able to walk during
several hours in mountain-paths, it's not possible to go from the
Palace to the Hagia Triada Villa ! Am I wrong ?..
Once again, you are just BLUFFING !.. Here is, for instance, an
extract from a touristic guide in French : (Translation is mine)
- To go to the Palace's remains : From the "Touristic Pavillon" (with
restaurant-bar) at the Phaistos village, take the road to the left...
The site of the Palace is about half-a-mile away, once you have
crossed the Hieropotamos...
- For visiting the Hagia Triada remains, : Starting from the
"Touristic Pavillon", don't take the road to the left going to the
Palace, but follow the main road to Rethymnon. Drive about one mile,
until you find a small road to the left (please, drive carefully !),
until you reach the Hieropotamos. Let the car at the parking, and take
the foot-path to the right. After a 10 minutes walk, you will arrive
to... etc.
What you write about "the Minoan Palace situated in the suburbs,
adjacent to the village of Hagia Triada" is just non-sense !.. As for
your statement concerning the "50 Linear A tablets found in the same
room as the Phaistos Disk", it's just preposterous !..
Steve, ONCE AGAIN, you have shown how little serious you are !..
grapheus
whi...@shore.net (steve) wrote in message news:<5QZv7.2790$v6.4...@news.shore.net>...
steve
>Otherwise, you would know that, except if you are able to walk during
>several hours in mountain-paths, it's not possible to go from the
>Palace to the Hagia Triada Villa ! Am I wrong ?..
>
>Once again, you are just BLUFFING !.. Here is, for instance, an
>extract from a touristic guide in French : (Translation is mine)
>- To go to the Palace's remains : From the "Touristic Pavillon" (with
>restaurant-bar) at the Phaistos village, take the road to the left...
>The site of the Palace is about half-a-mile away, once you have
>crossed the Hieropotamos...
>- For visiting the Hagia Triada remains, : Starting from the
>"Touristic Pavillon", don't take the road to the left going to the
>Palace, but follow the main road to Rethymnon. Drive about one mile,
>until you find a small road to the left (please, drive carefully !),
>until you reach the Hieropotamos. Let the car at the parking, and take
>the foot-path to the right. After a 10 minutes walk, you will arrive
>to... etc.
>What you write about "the Minoan Palace situated in the suburbs,
>adjacent to the village of Hagia Triada" is just non-sense !.. As for
>your statement concerning the "50 Linear A tablets found in the same
>room as the Phaistos Disk", it's just preposterous !..
>
>Steve, ONCE AGAIN, you have shown how little serious you are !..
V. La Rosa, ""Preliminary Considerations on the Problem
of the Relationship between Phaistos and Hagia Triada,"
in J. W. and M. C. Shaw (eds.), A Great Minoan Triangle
in South-central Crete: Kommos, Hagia Triadha, Phaistos
[Scripta Mediterranea 6] (Toronto 1985) 45-54.
You are going from a Tourist Guide? Well ok,
let me just jot down your directions
\ | The Heiropotamos north
\|
small road /|\ Road northwest to
to the left / | \ Rethymon 1 mile
10 min / | \
path to / | \
Hagia / | \
Triada / | \
Minoan / | \
Palace/ _____________|______________\ Phaistos
| Village
Another | The road to
halfmile | the left 1 mi
|
|
| The Heiropotamos south
I was looking at the site map and comparing it to a road map
Phaistos and Hagia Triada are 1.8 mi apart with Phaistos
to the east of the Hieropotamos and Hagia Triada.
Following your directions, from Phaistos village to
reach the Palace you take the road to the left
(heading west) until you reach the main road,
the Hieropotamos. You cross that and procede
another half mile to the Minoan Palace.
To reach Hagia Triada from Phaistos you go
1 mi.on the road to Rethymon and again reach
the Heiropotamos, the main road to Heraklion,
then you take a left and walk 10 min to
Hagia Triada and the Minoan Palace.
grapheus
Yes. I agree !.. So, the real problem is in the PROOFS that a
particular "decipherment" is THE CORRECT ONE !
>
> Sorry, but those "proofs" are no such thing.
> That's what Chadwick's
> exercise illustraded.
>
No. Chadwick illustrated only the easiness for "deciphering the Disk".
He did'n't prove anything else...
> > This is the
> > point where Chadwick erred : as he has been unable himself to find the
> > correct solution (being blind because of his faith in the "Risch-
> > Chadwick Theory"), he stated that the Disk was "undecipherable" ...
>
> Did he say that? Or did he say that it's undecipherable without further
> texts of the same type?
He said both. In fact, from the easiness of "deciphering the Disk", he
concluded that no PROOF was possible. He just forgot that PROOFS can
come FROM OUTSIDE, not only from the Disk itself. This was his
error...
>
> > Maybe you remember that the same thing was said by the Nazi
> > Cipher-Officers during the Second World War !... An example to be
> > meditated !..
>
> Did they say that?
>
Yes. They believed that any "decipherment" of their code was
"impossible". They were just wrong !
> Not that it matters, I suppose: they certainly behaved as if they
> believed it.
>
> But your example casts no light on this matter: the enigma code was
> heavily used, and there was a positively *huge* amount of traffic for
> the codebreakers at Bletchley Park to work on. Not only that, but the
> cleartext was in a known language, the texts were in regular and
> frequently repeated formats, and they contained names, some of which
> were known, and aided in the deciphrement. A very different kettle
> of fish than the Phaistos disc.
Not so much different !.. 1)- The German code was studied to "resist"
to a huge amount of traffic... The Phaistos Disk is alone of its kind,
but the inventor of the script did'n't try to hide its message !.. 2)-
It's a TEXT with more than 60 words. Largely enough to submit it to a
statistical screening... This is the way J.Faucounau reached the
decipherment : don't forget he is a mathematician, and comes from a
family of mathematicians and physicians...
>
> > Why, if you have some objections against the PROOFS in favour of the
> > Proto-Ionic Solution, don't you begin by studying *in detail* one of
> > them, the "astronomical" one, for instance ?.. (You may find a SUMMARY
> > - I insist on the word - of this PROOF in the thread "Re: Phaistos
> > Disk,the LAST WORD" of June 1st, 2001 on "sci.archaeology")...
>
> Well, I didn't see a proof, or anything like one.
Sorry, my reference was wrong !.. Look at the post n° 69 of June 12th,
2001 of the mentioned thread. But don't forget : IT'S JUST A SUMMARY
: if you want to seriously check the said proof, you have to carefully
read 6 or 7 references...
> > Good
> > luck for refuting it ! (And remember : there are many other evidences
> > of the same kind !)
>
> On what I've seen, that's no recommendation. Sorry, but I think you're
> barking up the wrong tree.
Sorry to contradict you. When I started to be interested in the Disk,
I had the intent to write a book about the diverse decipherments of
the Phaistos Disk. I studied - very carefully - some 20 different
solutions when I began to read J.F.'s papers. And I was FULLY
CONVINCED that his Proto-Ionic Solution was the GOOD ONE !... The
problem with this old man is that he does'n't care at all for his
decipherment to be known. He has scattered his work into c.45/60
papers, most of them in difficult-to-get journals, and has never
published some parts of his work... I have had a lot of trouble to
convince him to publish, two years ago, a book disclosing about 30% of
his discoveries, and to put a few url on the web !..
Since then, I've tried to make his Proto-Ionian Theory known ...
Therefore, the threads I launched, like "Phaistos Disk: the End of an
Enigma"...
Regards
grapheus
Day Brown
Phaistos were such because of earthquake, and
which were the result of being sacked and burnt?
grapheus
> Jacques Guy wrote in <3BC080C8...@alphalink.com.australia>:
> > Ned Latham wrote:
> > > Jacques Guy wrote:
> > > >
> > > > To make his point, [Chadwick] deciphered it
> > > > as a legal document on wells and water rights, all in
> > > > good Medieval Japanese.
> > >
> > > ROFL!
> >
> > More ROFL for you to enjoy. Get no.2121 of New Scientist (14 February
> > 1998). Open it page 44. Second column, last paragraph, fifth
> > last line: "Crete's Phaistos Disc of 1600 BC, a large, carved
> > stone disc". Large? Carved? Stone?
>
> New Scientist? What were they smoking?
>
> > Like the webmaster of
> > http://www.champollion.nu comments: disc is "probably a typo for
> > 'dish'!".
>
> Ah. The Wonders of the Web.
>
> Ned
Yes, Ned ! That is the problem with the Phaistos Disk !..
Too many "amateurs" having never seen the Disk and with a superficial
knowledge of the Aegean Archaeology have written stupidities about it
!..
The best example is, in the soc.history.ancient Group, a guy called
Steve (Whittet), which I call my-self "the pseudo-scientist". I quote
a few of his statements :
"The disc of Phaistos was discovered in 1903" (Wrong : 1908)
"More than 50 Linear A Tablets were found in the same room of the
Minoan Palace as the Phaistos Disk" (Wrong : only one)
"Some Linear A tablets have stamped hieroghyphics" (wrong : only
sealings or clay-labels, never the tablets)
Etc.
And such a guy is so stupid that even when one points his finger on
the error, he goes on !...
regards
grapheus
grapheus
> Is there any data to suggest which ruins at
> Phaistos were such because of earthquake, and
> which were the result of being sacked and burnt?
Hi, Day !
You have to read the Pernier's reports in the "Bolletino d'Arte del
Ministerio della P. Istruzione 4 (1910) and in "Monumenti Antichi
(1901 to 19O3). You may also read his book (in Italian) "Il palazzo
minoico di Festos". But the best report on the subject is probably
J.Carinci's recent paper "The III fase protopalatiale" in "Aegeum 3" :
this last author has reexamined Pernier's work, and attempted to
reconstruct the history of the Palace.
Sorry, all these first-hand references are in Italian... But you may
also find good summaries in English books dealing with Cretan
Archaeology. The problem is that they are just that : Summaries !
regards
grapheus
grapheus
> Phaistos were such because of earthquake, and
> which were the result of being sacked and burnt?
Oops ! I forgot to mention the excellent book in English of Gerald
Cadogan "Palaces of Minoan Crete", Methuen London and New-York 1976
regards
grapheus
steve
>
>Is there any data to suggest which ruins at
>Phaistos were such because of earthquake, and
>which were the result of being sacked and burnt?
The date for the destruction of the old palace
is very close to c 1628, the date for the
explosion of Thera.
regards,
steve
hagen
Remind you: I've actually come up with the best possible decipherment
on this (on the edge of pre-historic times) unique artifact.
No reason why an exposed ( lunacy or not ) perfect calendar should
not be the starting point for all future reflexions on this topic.
http://www.gvdnet.dk/~hagen/phaistos.htm
NB. New images: demo 8, demo 1, demo 2 . . .
Wishing well
Ole Hagen
grapheus
Hi, Ole !
Your "decipherment" would be nice if you had a few external pieces of
evidence confirming it. Unhappily, there are none... Or at least, I
did'n't find a single one when I studied it... A big difference with
J.F.'s Proto-Ionic Solution and its c.30 undeniable pieces of evidence
!..
This being said, I advise people interested in the matter to read you
book as a good example of the "Calendaric Solution", and to judge by
them-selves what I consider as a good idea, but leading to a
dead-end...
Best regards
grapheus
Kat's Scan
J.Guy seems to have come closest to hitting the nail on the head:
Proto-Ionion, ie, 'Ionian' (Enyan, ie, mother-tongue) was the 'Kana'
language.
The 'C arians' were 'arians' or Basques, alias Celts or Phoenicians
(Pelasqiuians) alias Estruscans (Turks, ie, Hindis).
The 'Basques' spoke what is known as a gutteral Gaelic/Kana,' (old
Arabic/Irish) which is known as 'Qui Che' in South America, Cherokee in
the U.S., Japanese in Japan, Turkish/Hindi in the Aegean and
Mediterranean, and old Slavika in Latvia.
The list goes on.
As for the 'Phaistos' disk, it is written in runes and stamped
pictographs. The main character is that of a Gallic warrior who is
willing to lay down his 'arms' for peace, or continue fighting for what
is his bounty.
Dump the 'psuedo-think-they- know-it-alls.' They haven't got a stitch
of 'truth'--in any department. You've heard the statement: 'Much ado
about nothing'--a lot of noise, but nothing said.
Kat
grapheus
> --a lot of noise, but nothing said.
>
> Kat
Right ! Concerning your message...
grapheus
hagen
Dead ends are for others to bring alive in the future.
Research goes on and on, thats the rhytm of progress.
(Think of the aztec calendar stones' lots of dead ends),
but the pussle, that everyone deeply engaged in this
subject intuitively feel, is clarified by my isolation of
the 22 stemforms. By publishing this dicovery,
I therefore announce a break-through of the great riddle,
while for my own part a break is needed.
By the way, a good external evidence is the only 8
not 12 names of months known from the Linear B
vocabulary, corresponding with the 8 actual
months on the disc
Or the multiplication table from 2 to 10, often printed
on the reverse of elementary-school notebooks.
I too don't mind if J.F.'s Proto Ionian hypothesis stands
its trial, only the Phaistos disc is a calendar system.
Now for everyone to see:
www.gvdnet.dk/~hagen/phaistos.htm
www.gvdnet.dk/~hagen/demo2.gif
Best regards to all my readers
Ole Hagen