Migration patterns

[singhals]

I've spent six months looking, and so here I am asking if anyone here has EVER
seen this migration pattern.

IS there a migration path between central Pennsylvania and Shelby county KY?

I'm not seeing one on any of the maps or articles I've consulted, and none of
my consultants have either. OTOH, none of us actually research that far west,
so I'm looking for local knowledge and expertise!

Cheryl

singhals <sing...@erols.com>

[Keith Nuttle]

> Cheryl Singhals <sing...@erols.com>


The exact route would depending on the time period. In the late 1700's and
early 1800's my guess would be that the family traveled down the Bradock road
to Pittsburgh, and either took a Riverboat or flatboat down to one of the
river towns between Carrolton and Louisville. From there the land is fairly
level so the last 30 so miles could have been completed by wagon. While I am
unsure of the exact route, the Communications between Bardstown and the river
were fairly easy by 1800, when the Cathedral at Bardstown was constructed.

There is another way that they could crossed Pennsylvania, and that is the
National Road which was completed to Wheeling by about 1820.

There were also many Indian trails that had were converted to roads by the
early 1700's in both Kentucky and in Pennsylvania. The trip from central
Pennsylvania could vary depending on exactly where in Pennsylvania they were
coming from.

Keith Nuttle <Keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

[Wes Groleau]

> IS there a migration path between central Pennsylvania and Shelby county KY?
>

> Cheryl Singhals


In the grand scheme of things, this is negligible, but I went to
familysearch.org and with no names and no dates, tried the following
combinations, with "exact" checked on each:

Pennsylvania Shelby, Kentucky
birth death
birth marriage
birth residence
marriage death
residence death

Total number of hits was a little over three hundred. Some probably the same
person--I didn't check for that.

Another thing you could do if you have lots of time on your hands is read one
or more of the county histories popular from 1880 to 1920. They typically
have lots of brief biographies that tell where the person or his parents came
from, or where his children moved to.


--
Wes Groleau

He that complies against his will is of the same opinion still.
— Samuel Butler, 1612-1680

Wes Groleau <Grolea...@FreeShell.org>

[singhals]

> > Cheryl Singhals<sing...@erols.com>
>
> The exact route would depending on the time period. In the late 1700's and
> early 1800's my guess would be that the family traveled down the Bradock road
> to Pittsburgh, and either took a Riverboat or flatboat down to one of the
> river towns between Carrolton and Louisville. From there the land is fairly
> level so the last 30 so miles could have been completed by wagon. While I am
> unsure of the exact route, the Communications between Bardstown and the river
> were fairly easy by 1800, when the Cathedral at Bardstown was constructed.
>
> There is another way that they could crossed Pennsylvania, and that is the
> National Road which was completed to Wheeling by about 1820.
>
> There were also many Indian trails that had were converted to roads by the
> early 1700's in both Kentucky and in Pennsylvania. The trip from central
> Pennsylvania could vary depending on exactly where in Pennsylvania they were
> coming from.
>
> Keith Nuttle

Essentially, they were coming out of the State College (Penn State) area.

By 1826 the head of household and his wife were both dead. By 1820, both would
have been in their 50s and (one would have thought) done with pioneering and
blazing new paths. Could be wrong there, I suppose. Still everything I find
on migrations implies a year or more in Ohio somewhere before Kentucky.

I'll worry about how and why *IF* I establish that people did in statistically
significant numbers go from "State College" directly to Shelby county without
stopping off anywhere for a year or so. Otherwise, it seems to me, I'm writing
fairy tales?

Cheryl

singhals <sing...@erols.com>

[singhals]

> > IS there a migration path between central Pennsylvania and Shelby county KY?
> >

> > Cheryl Singhals
>
> In the grand scheme of things, this is negligible, but I went to
> familysearch.org and with no names and no dates, tried the following
> combinations, with "exact" checked on each:
>
> Pennsylvania Shelby, Kentucky
> birth death
> birth marriage
> birth residence
> marriage death
> residence death
>
> Total number of hits was a little over three hundred. Some probably the same
> person--I didn't check for that.
>
> Another thing you could do if you have lots of time on your hands is read one
> or more of the county histories popular from 1880 to 1920. They typically
> have lots of brief biographies that tell where the person or his parents came
> from, or where his children moved to.
>

> Wes Groleau


The back-tracking from Shelby Co. to PA most often ends me up in Philadelphia
and comes through Adams co Ohio. The locale I've been given is closer to
State College than Philly.

The county mug books I've read show a path following (essentially, for today's
map-reader) the Pennsy-Pike from Philly to Pittsburgh, then down the Ohio to
Adams co. OH, then on down the river to the Louisville area over a period of
perhaps 5 years.

What I've got implies a direct quick-march from State College to Shelby-county
(lasting under a year), 10 to 20 years later a slow dawdle back up the Ohio
River to Adams co.

So far, the best I can say for it is, the name's the same and I can't prove it
isn't the right family. But then, there's that small issue with proving a
negative?

Cheryl

singhals <sing...@erols.com>

[Wes Groleau]

> The county mug books I've read show a path following (essentially, for today's
> map-reader) the Pennsy-Pike from Philly to Pittsburgh, then down the Ohio to
> Adams co. OH, then on down the river to the Louisville area over a period of
> perhaps 5 years.
>

> Cheryl Singhals


You could check whether anyone has researched any of the families I "counted"
on FamilySearch for possible confirmation of a trend. Otherwise, it may be a
matter of land records, which all too often are not online.


--
Wes Groleau

In any formula, constants (especially those obtained
from handbooks) are to be treated as variables.

Wes Groleau <Grolea...@FreeShell.org>

[Keith Nuttle]

> Cheryl Singhals <sing...@erols.com>


While we have corresponded for some years I did not realize you were an
author.

You mentioned the Pennsylvania road so I assume you have did some research on
the roads across Pennsylvania. In addition to leaving Pittsburgh, some went
across county and through Beaver Co and joined the river at Stuebenville. (I
don't know when it became Stuebenville, but I know one expidition into the
Ohio territories by the US Army went that.

The first Steam boat down the Ohio was in 1811

http://steamboattimes.com/flatboats.html
http://steamboattimes.com/keelboats.html

http://mjcpl.org/rivertorail/beforesteam/flatboat
http://www.riverworksdiscovery.org/tour.cfm

If you are old enough you may remember "Davy Crockett and the King of the
River" and the Keel boat race from the 1950's. While it is a Disney
presentation it does show modes of travell on the Ohio River.

As for getting from the Ohio into Shelby Co there appears to be several
rivers, and trails into that area.

http://www.history-map.com/picture/003/Kentucky-1700s-the-in.htm

There is one other thing that would encourage roads into Shelby Co. That is
Whiskey. Some of the greatest American Whiskeys in the world have been made
in that area of Kentucky for since the late 1700's. So there would be roads
to get their product to the river.

As for Adams Co Ohio, unless their boat was wrecked and they had to rebuild
the boat, I do not know why they would have spent any time in Adams Co. There
are several small river towns in the County, and I don't believe any major
tributaries in to either Ohio nor Kentucky.


Hope this helps.

Keith Nuttle <Keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

[Steve Hayes]

> Essentially, they were coming out of the State College (Penn State) area.
>
> By 1826 the head of household and his wife were both dead. By 1820, both would
> have been in their 50s and (one would have thought) done with pioneering and
> blazing new paths. Could be wrong there, I suppose. Still everything I find
> on migrations implies a year or more in Ohio somewhere before Kentucky.
>
> I'll worry about how and why *IF* I establish that people did in statistically
> significant numbers go from "State College" directly to Shelby county without
> stopping off anywhere for a year or so. Otherwise, it seems to me, I'm writing
> fairy tales?
>

> Cheryl Singhals <sing...@erols.com>


Are you writing family history or a historical novel?

Families do what they do, and if they happen to do what other people did, that
can help you guess WHY they did what they did, but sometimes they just do
stuff for reasons that get forgotten after a couple of generations.

In other words, they might have migrated without following any established
pattern.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net>

[Keith Nuttle]

> Cheryl Singhals <sing...@erols.com>


I saw your post on ES that did not appear on aioe. Since we are talking about
the period of the early 1800's there is another factor that would explain
going to Shelby Co Ky and then back to Adams Co Ohio.

Until after the War of 1812, the lands north of the Ohio River were consider
Indian territory. Known area of large Indian populations were on the Wabash
River in central Indiana, in Seneca Co Ohio, and I believe in the Columbus
Ohio the Scioto River. After the end of the war in 1814, the Indians were
removed from the areas in the territory. Since the river towns had been
established, I assume the Indian left those areas earlier. I know that the
Indiana were removed from Central Indiana and Seneca Co Ohio about 1830. In
fact there is a book about the painter George Winter with his paintings of the
Indians and his note that he wrote about his travels among the Indians that
gives a very good picture of the Indians in this period.

>From the late 1700's Kentucky was a relative civilized area, with towns and
communities in many area. The Catholic Diocese which consisted of many of the
states bordering the Ohio River was established at at Bardstown Ky in 1808 and
the Cathedral built there in 1816.

Here is a scenario that could explain the travels of your family. The family
came down the Ohio and like the area in Adams county. However trying to
establish a farm placed them in conflict with the Indians and the federal
government who were trying to control settlements in the Indian Territories.

After enduring the hassle for about a year they moved on down the river to
Shelby county Ky. In the late 1820's when they heard the Indians had been
removed from the Adams County areas they moved back to that area.

Keith Nuttle <Keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

[singhals]

>> Cheryl Singhals<sing...@erols.com>
>
> While we have corresponded for some years I did not realize you were an
> author.

Now, now. ;)

> You mentioned the Pennsylvania road so I assume you have did some research on
> the roads across Pennsylvania. In addition to leaving Pittsburgh, some went
> across county and through Beaver Co and joined the river at Stuebenville. (I
> don't know when it became Stuebenville, but I know one expidition into the
> Ohio territories by the US Army went that.

Oh, yeah.

> The first Steam boat down the Ohio was in 1811
>
> http://steamboattimes.com/flatboats.html
> http://steamboattimes.com/keelboats.html
>
> http://mjcpl.org/rivertorail/beforesteam/flatboat
> http://www.riverworksdiscovery.org/tour.cfm
>
> If you are old enough you may remember "Davy Crockett and the King of the
> River" and the Keel boat race from the 1950's. While it is a Disney
> presentation it does show modes of travell on the Ohio River.

OK, good idea. The challenge alone might have appealed.

> As for getting from the Ohio into Shelby Co there appears to be several
> rivers, and trails into that area.
>
> http://www.history-map.com/picture/003/Kentucky-1700s-the-in.htm
>
> There is one other thing that would encourage roads into Shelby Co. That is
> Whiskey. Some of the greatest American Whiskeys in the world have been made
> in that area of Kentucky for since the late 1700's. So there would be roads
> to get their product to the river.

(G) Another good thought. The couple-of-interest would have been fairly
old in 1790-5, but Lord knows obstreperous enough genetically to need to
erm, relocate? with some speed and surreptition (if that's a word).

> As for Adams Co Ohio, unless their boat was wrecked and they had to rebuild
> the boat, I do not know why they would have spent any time in Adams Co. There
> are several small river towns in the County, and I don't believe any major
> tributaries in to either Ohio nor Kentucky.

The Ohio Company sold land there, and the Virginia Military District was
there. Going to Adams county from the EAST makes sense from several
angles. By-passing it does not, particularly since if one takes the easy
route (a river) you pass it.

Still, a single shred of supporting documentation would be useful in the
decades-long document gap. The fact that there was a John Doe, 46, in Pa
in 1765 who had a son James and a John Doe 48, in KY in 1769 who had a son
James, does not make James Doe of Ohio the son of either of 'em. In fact,
beyond the coincidence of names, there's no evidence that the two Johns are
the same person.

Cheryl

singhals <sing...@erols.com>

[singhals]

Steve Hayes wrote:

>> Essentially, they were coming out of the State College (Penn State) area.
>>
>> By 1826 the head of household and his wife were both dead. By 1820, both would
>> have been in their 50s and (one would have thought) done with pioneering and
>> blazing new paths. Could be wrong there, I suppose. Still everything I find
>> on migrations implies a year or more in Ohio somewhere before Kentucky.
>>
>> I'll worry about how and why *IF* I establish that people did in statistically
>> significant numbers go from "State College" directly to Shelby county without
>> stopping off anywhere for a year or so. Otherwise, it seems to me, I'm writing
>> fairy tales?
>>

>> Cheryl Singhals<sing...@erols.com>
>
> Are you writing family history or a historical novel?

Neither. I'm trying to decide whether "this family" is part of "my
family". And to do that I'd like to have a shred of something beyond "this
family's family always said..." Since that documentation isn't where one
would expect to find it (i.e., county of residence or county of possible
terminus) it suggests several things -- (a) the county of residence or
terminus is wrong, (b) it's not true, (c) the dates of residence or
terminus are wrong.

> Families do what they do, and if they happen to do what other people did, that
> can help you guess WHY they did what they did, but sometimes they just do
> stuff for reasons that get forgotten after a couple of generations.

I don't care /why/; I care only /IF/.

> In other words, they might have migrated without following any established
> pattern.

which is what I was trying to establish -- WAS there an established pattern
which I had not previously noticed in an area I'm not comfortable
researching, despite my contacts and consultants.

Cheryl

singhals <sing...@erols.com>

[singhals]

>> Cheryl Singhals<sing...@erols.com>
>
>
> I saw your post on ES that did not appear on aioe. Since we are talking about

???

> the period of the early 1800's there is another factor that would explain
> going to Shelby Co Ky and then back to Adams Co Ohio.
>
> Until after the War of 1812, the lands north of the Ohio River were consider
> Indian territory. Known area of large Indian populations were on the Wabash
> River in central Indiana, in Seneca Co Ohio, and I believe in the Columbus
> Ohio the Scioto River. After the end of the war in 1814, the Indians were
> removed from the areas in the territory. Since the river towns had been
> established, I assume the Indian left those areas earlier. I know that the
> Indiana were removed from Central Indiana and Seneca Co Ohio about 1830. In
> fact there is a book about the painter George Winter with his paintings of the
> Indians and his note that he wrote about his travels among the Indians that
> gives a very good picture of the Indians in this period.
>
>> From the late 1700's Kentucky was a relative civilized area, with towns and
> communities in many area. The Catholic Diocese which consisted of many of the
> states bordering the Ohio River was established at at Bardstown Ky in 1808 and
> the Cathedral built there in 1816.
>
> Here is a scenario that could explain the travels of your family. The family
> came down the Ohio and like the area in Adams county. However trying to
> establish a farm placed them in conflict with the Indians and the federal
> government who were trying to control settlements in the Indian Territories.

Nahhh, this family would have been more likely to set up a trading post
than fight 'em. (g)

> After enduring the hassle for about a year they moved on down the river to
> Shelby county Ky. In the late 1820's when they heard the Indians had been
> removed from the Adams County areas they moved back to that area.

>From other evidence (see above) it would seem more likely that the more
peace there was the less this family would like it. OTOH, they /were/
getting on in years, and I find myself a lot less likely to fight these
days ...

cheryl

singhals <sing...@erols.com>

[Keith Nuttle]

On 8/6/2012 5:34 PM, singhals wrote:

> Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>
> Neither. I'm trying to decide whether "this family" is part of "my
> family". And to do that I'd like to have a shred of something beyond "this
> family's family always said..." Since that documentation isn't where one
> would expect to find it (i.e., county of residence or county of possible
> terminus) it suggests several things -- (a) the county of residence or
> terminus is wrong, (b) it's not true, (c) the dates of residence or
> terminus are wrong.
>
>
>> Families do what they do, and if they happen to do what other people did, that
>> can help you guess WHY they did what they did, but sometimes they just do
>> stuff for reasons that get forgotten after a couple of generations.
>
> I don't care /why/; I care only /IF/.
>
>
>> In other words, they might have migrated without following any established
>> pattern.
>
> which is what I was trying to establish -- WAS there an established pattern
> which I had not previously noticed in an area I'm not comfortable
> researching, despite my contacts and consultants.
>
> Cheryl
>
> singhals <sing...@erols.com>
>

It sounds like you are desperate enough to tackle the following databases

For Adams Co Ohio.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysearch.org%2Frecords%2Fwaypoint%2FMMPW-N4R%3An344718717%3Fcc%3D1992421

For Shelby Co Kentucky.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysearch.org%2Frecords%2Fwaypoint%2F11533292%3Fcc%3D1875188


I have found some great stuff in the unindexed records so it is worth while.
However for some files has taken me an over an hour to understand how they
were organized.

In one set of probate records I found the information the linked a Susan
Barlet in Berks county Pa to a Susan Berlet Miller who is buried at the Ohio
Indiana state line. That one was one of the larger records over 100 pages.

Keith Nuttle <Keith_...@sbcglobal.net>