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Keith Nuttle

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Sep 23, 2012, 12:31:12 PM9/23/12
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Situation:

My cousin who has been researching our family for years, says that his mother
had a document in German which she thought was John George Hindelong's
discharge papers from the German Army (Which army is unknown)

At some time in the last forty years I have been told that document which was
in a leather binder disappeared into dust before it could be copied.

Based on the age of the "Discharge" document, it could help determine what
generation came from German.

1st Generation ?Christian? b: ?1770-1890?
2st Generation John George b:about 1810
3st Generation John Frederick b:1839

Assuming the discharge document was kept as a prized document in a drawer,
would anyone be willing to estimate how old the document would be when it
crumbled to dust?

If this 1st generation ?Christian? was the a Christian Hindelong from Russia
who immigrated from Baiersbronn in 1804 to the US, the discharge document
would have been issued before 1804. It would have been 140 - 160 years old
when my cousin said it crumbled to dust.

Knowing the approximate life span of a document of this type could help in my
search as it would give me a better idea as to who was in the army and when
they came to America.

Thank you for any help you can give me.

Keith Nuttle <Keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

Dennis Lee Bieber

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Sep 30, 2012, 12:36:33 AM9/30/12
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> At some time in the last forty years I have been told that document which was
> in a leather binder disappeared into dust before it could be copied.
>
<snip>

> Assuming the discharge document was kept as a prized document in a drawer,
> would anyone be willing to estimate how old the document would be when it
> crumbled to dust?
>
> Keith Nuttle <Keith_...@sbcglobal.net>


Without knowing more about the environment, I wouldn't care to
estimate...

If the leather had a high latent acid content (left-over tannic acid),
a few decades could result in a very yellowed and brittle document (at least
the odds are good that the paper wasn't high-acid wood-pulp -- I've got
paperbacks from ~1970 that look ready to crumble).
The use of iron-gall ink could also contribute to an early demise of
the paper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_gall_ink

If the binder had been stored in a cheap cardboard box, with other
documents, the acidity of the box would have an effect.

IOWs, the document could have been practically any age and still
decompose in just the last half century if the storage conditions changed
(humidity, acidity in the air or emitted from adjacent objects, etc.)


--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlf...@ix.netcom.com HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

Joe Makowiec

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Sep 30, 2012, 12:39:43 AM9/30/12
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Wood-pulp based paper was introduced around 1844. Prior to that, paper was
linen-based (and expensive). Wood-pulp based paper is acidic and deteriorates
fairly rapidly. (Think paperbacks published mid-20th century and the
condition they're in now.) Linen (and, I would assume, cotton) based papers
are fairly stable. So I would guess that John Frederick would be the likelier
candidate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_paper

More on the deterioration of paper:

http://www.loc.gov/preservation/resources/care/deterioratebrochure.html

--
Joe Makowiec
http://makowiec.org/
Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/

Joe Makowiec <mako...@invalid.invalid>

bob gillis

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Sep 30, 2012, 12:42:31 AM9/30/12
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> Situation:
>
> My cousin who has been researching our family for years, says that
> his mother had a document in German which she thought was John George
> Hindelong's discharge papers from the German Army (Which army is
> unknown)
>
> At some time in the last forty years I have been told that document
> which was in a leather binder disappeared into dust before it could
> be copied.
>
> Based on the age of the "Discharge" document, it could help determine
> what generation came from German.
>
> 1st Generation ?Christian? b: ?1770-1890? 2st Generation John
> George b:about 1810 3st Generation John Frederick b:1839
>
> Assuming the discharge document was kept as a prized document in a
> drawer, would anyone be willing to estimate how old the document
> would be when it crumbled to dust?
>
> If this 1st generation ?Christian? was the a Christian Hindelong from
> Russia who immigrated from Baiersbronn in 1804 to the US, the
> discharge document would have been issued before 1804. It would have
> been 140 - 160 years old when my cousin said it crumbled to dust.
>
> Keith Nuttle


Until the mid 1900s most paper in the USA was made from cotton or linen fibers
with no acids. A number of years ago I personally handled a 1685 probate
record in the MA Archives .It and the ink were as though it had been written a
few years before not 200

So if the paper disintegrated it probably was wood based acidic paper. I have
no idea what type of paper would have been used by a German state army.


bob gillis

bob gillis <robert...@verizon.net>

Keith Nuttle

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Sep 30, 2012, 2:19:03 PM9/30/12
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I wish to thank those who responded to my original post. From their response,
it appears that because of the different possible storage conditions and
papers there is no way to estimate the age of this document.

To put a slightly different spin on my original question, would a soldier
discharge form a German Army in the period from about 1780 through 1830
receive discharge papers?

If it was not a military discharge would a person in Germany in the same
period receive a written discharge from the town he lived in so he could
emigrate to the US? I could see a person with poor in the German language
interpreting this type of document as a military discharge.

I could see where both would become treasured documents.

Keith Nuttle <Keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

bob gillis

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Oct 1, 2012, 5:38:37 PM10/1/12
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> To put a slightly different spin on my original question, would a soldier
> discharge form a German Army in the period from about 1780 through 1830
> receive discharge papers?
>
> If it was not a military discharge would a person in Germany in the same
> period receive a written discharge from the town he lived in so he could
> emigrate to the US? I could see a person with poor in the German language
> interpreting this type of document as a military discharge.
>
> Keith Nuttle


I suggest that you join a a list for the area that the family lived, on
rootsweb, Yahoo or genealogy.net. The army/ies that these men may have
belonged to could be in different duchies , electorates. principalities etc.

Not giving the details of the people being discussed just makes a lot of
guesses usually not leading to a good answer.

Keith Nuttle

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Oct 2, 2012, 12:20:29 PM10/2/12
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> bob gillis <robert...@verizon.net>


Unfortunately that is easier said than done. I just recently found the father
in Crawford Co Ohio who would have been the person who was in Germany. I have
no idea at this time where in Germany the family came from, if that generation
came from Germany and not one of the eastern states like Pa.

Trying to piece things together, I had hoped that that discharge paper could
provide a clue to the Germany or Pennsylvania question.

If anyone has information on the recently found father, John George Hindenlang
(Hindelong), who married a Catharine Smith (Parents Frederick and Eva Smith)
in 1838 in Crawford CO Ohio, had a son John Frederick Hindenlang in 1839, and
died there about 1840, I would appreciate it.

Keith Nuttle <Keith_...@sbcglobal.net>

bob gillis

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Oct 2, 2012, 9:02:34 PM10/2/12
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On 10/2/2012 12:20 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:

snip

> Unfortunately that is easier said than done. I just recently found the father
> in Crawford Co Ohio who would have been the person who was in Germany. I have
> no idea at this time where in Germany the family came from, if that generation
> came from Germany and not one of the eastern states like Pa.

BUT YOU CAN DO IT

Genealogy research is often a process of elimination.

How old was John George at any of the events you have?

Search the US Census for Hindenlang in 1790-1830 in USA. check out any in
NY, PA, MD and VA. Check out any FAMILIES that have a male child that
matches the age of John George.

Search Castle Garden for him and for any Hindenl*g

Search the Philadelphia Passenger Arrivals


> Trying to piece things together, I had hoped that that discharge paper could
> provide a clue to the Germany or Pennsylvania question.
>
> If anyone has information on the recently found father, John George Hindenlang
> (Hindelong), who married a Catharine Smith (Parents Frederick and Eva Smith)
> in 1838 in Crawford CO Ohio, had a son John Frederick Hindenlang in 1839, and
> died there about 1840, I would appreciate it.

Searching FS for Hindenlang √ Germany √ 1800-1838 returns 59 records.
and 1780 - 1838 77. Check them out.

bob gillis

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Oct 2, 2012, 9:03:32 PM10/2/12
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Further to my previous message a male Hindenlag age 19 arrived in NY on 25 jun
1833 from Le Havre.

Also in searching the <=1830 Census include OH.

Keith Nuttle

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Oct 3, 2012, 12:47:14 PM10/3/12
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> bob gillis <robert...@verizon.net>


Bob thank you for all of the help you have given me. I found John George
Hindenlang was John Frederick Hindenlang's father about 2 months ago and have
been working to confirm what I have found, I am now ready to start searching
for John George, and will follow your suggestions.

bob gillis

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Oct 6, 2012, 12:30:17 PM10/6/12
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On 10/2/2012 9:02 PM, bob gillis wrote:

snip
Searching FS for Hindenlang √ Germany √ 1800-1838 returns 59 records.
and 1780 - 1838 77. Check them out.

just looked at this reply and noticed that alt 251 did not come out as a check
mark.

This is the only list where that has happened so I think is is due to the way
that Linkpendium processes GENMTD messaages

Keith Nuttle

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Oct 7, 2012, 3:53:32 PM10/7/12
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I have been working Familyserach from the unindexed records and from the
search page https://www.familysearch.org/

However the results I get do not seem to be the ones you get.

How are you searching Familysearch?

Keith Nuttle <Keith_...@sbcglobal.net>
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