First Cousin Marriage, Sothill - Wasselin

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John Watson

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Feb 13, 2015, 11:17:05 PM2/13/15
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Dear all,

It seems a little slow round here recently so I thought that I would post this little genealogical snippet.

First cousin marriages were definitely not allowed by the church in medieval times, but I recently came across a papal dispensation for a first cousin marriage:-

1482, Absolution of John Sothel alias Sutil alias Suthil, layman, and Alice Waslyn', mulier, of the diocese of York, from excommunication etc. incurred by marrying, not in ignorance that they were related in the second and second degrees of kindred, because, although they were not descended from the same grandfather, they were descended from the same grandmother. The pope dispenses them to contract marriage anew, and decrees present and future offspring thereof legitimate [1].

21 July 1482, Licence to the rector of Everingham to marry John Sothill and Alice Waslyn in the chapel of the manor-house of the said John at Everingham [2].

The Sothill pedigree appears to be:-

Sir Gerard Sothill of Redbourne, Lincolnshire, born about 1352, died 1 August 1410, married (secondly?) before August 1397, Joan, widow of Robert Wasselin of Frodingham and Wasselin's manor in Redbourne, Lincolnshire. By her he had at least two sons, Gerard his son and heir, born 14 September 1398 and John. Joan died on 1 April 1442.

John Sothill born about 1401, married before May 1421, Joan daughter of John Poucher and Agnes Ellis, heiress of West Rasen, Lincolnshire, Drax and Everingham, Yorkshire. John Sothill died on 4 May 1445, leaving a son and heir John.

John Sothill of Everingham, born about 1430, died shortly before 23 November 1495. He married firstly Agnes Ingleby, the mother of his children, and secondly before 1482, Alice Wasselin, widow of ... West and his first cousin. Alice died 12 November 1501, leaving a son and heir Robert West, aged 46 and more.

The Wasselin pedigree appears to be:-

Robert Wasselin son of Robert Wasselin by Joan Luddington (d. 1392), mentioned in his mother's will. He married Joan and died before 1397, leaving a son and heir Robert. His widow married secondly before August 1397, Sir Gerard Sothill of Redbourne.

Robert Wasselin, born about 1395, died after May 1451, married Elizabeth Boys. He had a son Richard and a daughter Alice.

Alice Wasselin, born about 1435, died 12 November 1501, married firstly, before 1455 ... West and secondly in 1482, John Sothill of Everingham, her first cousin.

I posted here last year that I thought finding the identity of Joan, wife of Robert Wasselin and Gerard Sothill might be the answer to why Beatrice Neville granted the manor of Redbourne to Gerard Sothill. Now I don't think that Joan is the answer. Beatrice and her husband John Beckingham granted the manor of Redbourne to Gerard Sothill and his brother Robert in 1371-2, which must be at least 20 years before Gerard Sothill married Joan, probably as his second wife. According to Maddison (Lincolnshire Pedigrees, vol III, 915) Gerard only had one wife, a daughter of Sir Gerard Salvain, so I suppose there may be a possibility that Joan was a Salvain, but I can't find any direct or indirect evidence of this.

Regards,

John

1. Calendar of Papal Registers Relating To Great Britain and Ireland, vol. 13, 1471-1484 (1955), 110.
2. J. Raine, ed., Testamenta Eboracensia: A Selection of Wills from the Registry at York, Vol. III, Surtees Society 45, 1864, 346.

John Watson

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Feb 16, 2015, 3:18:48 PM2/16/15
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Dear all,

I have been informed off list that "Gerard Sothill's wife was Muriel Salvain in my records. They were ancestral to my 10th great grandfather William Farrar of Virginia".

This is easily shown to be incorrect from contemporary records:

In 1397, the wife of Gerard Sothill was named Joan.

1397, Non. Sept. Indults to have a portable altar are granted to the underwritten persons: Joan, noble woman, wife of Gerard de Sothell, donsel, nobleman, of the diocese of Lincoln.
Calendar of Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland, vol. 5: 1398-1404 (1904), 60.

The inquisition post mortem of Sir Gerard Sothill taken on 8 September 1410 states:
"He died on 1 Aug. last. Gerard his son and heir was aged 11 years on 14 Sept. last".
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 19, No. 760.

So Gerard, the eldest son, was born on 14 September 1398, and was the son of Joan. John the second son and I suppose the ancestor of William Farrar, must have been born about 1400-1410.

In 1421, Joan was fined 200 marks for marrying John to Joan Poucher.

26 May 1421, Pardon, for 200 marks paid in the hanaper, to Joan late the wife of Gerard Sothill, 'chivaler,' of her trespass in marrying Joan sister and heiress of Henry Poucher, deceased, to John son of the said Gerard; the marriage pertaining to the king because Henry held of the king in chief the manor of Westrasyn, co. Lincoln, and other lands in the counties of York and Wilts and by reason of the minority of the heiress.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry V, vol. 2, 343.

For some reason, Gerard the eldest son did not prove his age until 1427. Was he actually born in 1406?

14 July 1427, To the escheator in Lincolnshire. Order to take the fealty of Gerard Sothille, son and heir of Gerard Sothille knight, and to give him seisin of his father's lands; as he has proved his age before the escheator, and for 10s. paid in the hanaper the king has respited his homage until Christmas day next. To the same. Order to take of Joan who was wife of Gerard Sothille knight an oath etc., and in presence of the next friends of Gerard his son and heir, or of their attorneys, to assign her dower.
Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry VI: vol. 1: 1422-1429 (1933), 304-311.

From the above records I can be fairly certain that Joan was the mother of Sir Gerard Sothill's children. Whether she was Joan Salvain is another question, to which I cannot find the answer. If she was the daughter of Sir Gerard Salvain the next question is which one? Sir Gerard Salvain who died on 1 August 1369, left a grandson and heir Sir Gerard born about 1353 who died in 1418, but he also had a son called Gerard born about 1357 by his second wife.

Regards,

John

Robert O'Connor

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Nov 11, 2016, 9:27:17 PM11/11/16
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John,

In terms of the children of John Sothill (d 1445) and Joan Poucher, do you know if a Henry appears?

Back in 2001 or 2002, Brice Claggett made the following statement in a post on SGM - "I don't have time to check my sources just now, but I think it's clear that Henry Soothill the King's Attorney was grandson rather than son of Sir Gerard Soothill (d. 1410). Henry's father, I believe, was John Soothill (d. 1445) of West Rasen, Lincolnshire, which he acquired with other properties by his marriage to Joan Poucher, coheiress of the barony of Everingham".

I am attempting to verify this placement of Henry, the King's Attorney-General, as a son of John Sothill (d 1445) and Joan Poucher. He is usually identified as a son of Sir Gerard Soothill, but for chronological reasons, this looks unlikely to me.

Regards
Robert O'Connor

Richard Carruthers

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Nov 11, 2016, 10:40:43 PM11/11/16
to Robert O'Connor, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Somewhere I saw a genealogical table, possibly by T.R. Thomson, the
historian of Cricklade, detailing the inheritance of Purton Poucher
manor in Wilts.

Meanwhile, have you seen the following?


https://books.google.ca/books?id=uTwHG7akovwC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=purton+poucher+sothill&source=bl&ots=VP7oh0NGtN&sig=-BDbJnTwIaQlBbXi07KYCcFEyK8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWr4fuo6LQAhVDxWMKHQXoA_gQ6AEIITAA#v=onepage&q=purton%20poucher%20sothill&f=false

or this page from "The Story of Purton"

https://archive.org/stream/storyofpurtoncol00richiala#page/20/mode/2up

Regards,

Richard
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Robert O'Connor

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Nov 12, 2016, 3:42:01 AM11/12/16
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In the Boyville/Sothill pedigree in Nichols ‘History & Antiquities of Leicestershire’ (Vol II, p 916) Henry Sothill is recorded as “Henry Southill [sic] esq. of Market Rasin [sic] co. Linc. & of Stockerston in right of his wife”.

This reference suggests that Brice Claggett may have been correct when he stated that he thought Henry was of the West Rasen Sotehills.

Robert O'Connor

John Watson

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Nov 12, 2016, 4:19:41 AM11/12/16
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Hi Robert,

Here are my source notes for Henry Sothill, the king's attorney, who appears to be a younger son of Gerard Sothill of Redbourne, Lincolnshire (b. 14 Sep 1402, d. bef. 22 Jun 1463) by his wife Isabel Fauconberge:-

Henry Sothill, a lawyer, a younger son of Gerard Sothill of Redburne, co. Lincoln, married Anne, only [sic] daughter of John Boyville of Stockfaston, co. Leicester, and eventually the heiress of that place.
J. Raine, ed., Testamenta Eboracensia: A Selection of Wills from the Registry at York, Vol. IV, Surtees Society, 53 (1869), 169n.

20 April 1461, Appointment for life of Henry Sotehill as attorney general in all courts of record in England, receiving the accustomed fees, with power of appointing deputies. Vacated by surrender and cancelled, 11 July, 11 Edward IV [1471].
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward IV: 1461-1467 (1897), 6.

5 February 1463, Pardon, for 30s. paid in the hanaper, to Henry Sotehill, Hugh Noone, clerk, William Parchet, clerk, and Henry Bell, vicar of the parish church of Est Easyn, for acquiring in fee from Gerard Sotehill the manor of Redbourn, co. Lincoln, held in chief, and entering thereon without licence.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward IV: 1461-1467 (1897), 218.

9 July 1468, Whereas the king on 22 January, in the 5th year of his reign, by letters patent granted licence to John Boyvile, esquire, to found a perpetual almshouse at Stokefaston, co. Leicester, but the latter died before founding it and the letters are accordingly invalid; the king hereby at the supplication of Henry Sothill, his attorney, and William Hopkyns, parson of the church of Sothluffenham, and John Boyvile, executors of the will of the said John, grants licence to the said executors and their assigns to found a perpetual almshouse of three poor persons at Stokefaston by the church and a perpetual chantry of one chaplain to celebrate divine service and prayers daily in the church for the good estate of the king and his consort Elizabeth, queen of England, and for their souls after death and the soul of the said John Boyvile, deceased, and his relatives, ancestors and benefactors according to the ordinance of the said Henry Sothill and Anne his wife, one of the daughters and heirs of the said John, to be called the chantry of the Virgin Mary in Stokefaston church, commonly called 'Boyviles Chaunterie,' and for the said chaplain to acquire in mortmain lands and rents, not held in chief, to tbe value of £12 yearly for the sustenance of himself and the said poor persons.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward IV, Henry VI: 1467-1477 (1900), 118.

2 May 1485, Writ of diem clausit extremum; Henry Sotehyll esquire: York, Lincoln, Northampton, Leicester.
Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. 21, Edward IV, Edward V, Richard III: 1471-1485 (1961), 290.

Regards,

John

John Watson

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Nov 12, 2016, 4:31:14 AM11/12/16
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On Saturday, 12 November 2016 02:27:17 UTC, Robert O'Connor wrote:
Hi Robert,

On the other hand, John Sothill (d. 4 May 1445) and his wife Joan Poucher did have a younger son called Henry:-

1 March 1453, Licence, for 40s. paid in the hanaper, for Nicholas Wymbyssh, clerk, Gerard Suthyll, esquire, Thomas Wade, 'gentilman,' John Hamond, clerk, William Stanley, clerk, and Richard, son of Robert Hansard, to grant to John Suthyll, esquire, and Agnes [Ingleby] his wife and the heirs of their bodies the manor of Drax, co. York, held in chief, except two fisheries called Langrake and Rusholme and a ferry called Langrake, parcels of the manor, with successive remainders to the same John Suthyll and the heirs of his body, to Robert, brother of John, and the heirs of his body, to Henry, brother of Robert, and the heirs of his body, to Gerard, brother of Henry, and the heirs of his body, to Nicholas, brother of Gerard, and the heirs of his body, and to the right heirs of Joan, late the wife of John Suthyll, esquire, mother of the said John, Robert, Henry, Gerard and Nicholas Suthyll. Licence also for the same to grant to the same John Suthyll and Agnes in tail male the said fisheries and fair, held in chief, with like remainders in fee tail. Licence also for the same to grant to John Suthyll, esquire, in fee tail, the manor of Westrasyn, co. Lincoln, held in chief, except 3 messuages, a cottage, 4 tofts and 12 bovates of land, parcels of the manor, with like remainders in fee tail.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry VI, vol. 6: 1452-1461 (1910), 107.

Regards,

John

Robert O'Connor

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Nov 12, 2016, 2:49:47 PM11/12/16
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Hi John

These two references that were posted on SGM in 2005 would however suggest that the Henry, younger son of John Sothill (d 1445) and Joan Poucher was of "Ryston, in Holderness" and that he married Elizabeth Nuttall:

FILE - Deed leading to the uses of a Fine - ref.
A2A, Sheffield Archives: Spencer Stanhope Muniments
SpSt/4/11/82/41 - date: 10 Jun 1478
[from Scope and Content] Between Henry Sotehill of
Ryston in Holderness, Gent, and Elizabeth his wife, of the one
part, and John Frechvyll, Gent, Isabell his wife, John Barnby,
Gent, and Agnes his wife, of the other part; re the lands of the
late Anthony Nutyll in Ryston, Sutton, Tunstall and Skypseeburgh,
to be settled on Henry and Elizabeth for their lives, then to
Agnes and Isabell, daughters and heirs apparent of Elizabeth.'



Pre-nuptial settlement dated 20 Apr 1495
' Henry Sotehill, brother to John Solehill of Everyngham, esq.,
and Elizabeth, his wife, late wife of Laurence Sekilbrice, sister
and heir to Sir Anthony Nuttall, knight, of the first part, and
Robert Barnby and John Barnby, his son and heir, of the second
part.
[from Scope and Content] The parties of the first part
further agree to enfeoffe William Copley of Doncaster, John Villers
of Fullaby, Nicholas Sotehill of Everygham, Alexander Drax of
Woodhall, Henry Rokley of Ledes and William Symmes of Wirksburgh,
in and of lands to the yearly value of £10, part of the above
mentioned lands; so that the feoffees shall reserve rents and
profits of the lands to specified uses.' - A2A, Sheffield Archives:
Spencer Stanhope Muniments [SpSt/1 - SpSt/172], SpSt/74/1

Therefore, I think it is clear that Henry Sothill (M Anne Boyville) was the Henry, younger son of John Sothill (d 1445) & Joan Poucher.

How do you place Henry Sothill (M Anne Boyville) as a younger son of younger son of Gerard Sothill of Redbourne, Lincolnshire (b. 14 Sep 1402, d. bef. 22 Jun 1463) by his wife Isabel Fauconberge? Do you consider the 1463 pardon that you quoted as evidence of that?

Regards
Robert

Robert O'Connor

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Nov 12, 2016, 3:01:39 PM11/12/16
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On Sunday, 13 November 2016 08:49:47 UTC+13, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> Therefore, I think it is clear that Henry Sothill (M Anne Boyville) was the Henry, younger son of John Sothill (d 1445) & Joan Poucher.
>

Typo - missed the all important "NOT":

Should have typed - Therefore, I think it is clear that Henry Sothill (M Anne Boyville) was NOT the Henry, younger son of John Sothill (d 1445) & Joan Poucher.

Robert

John Watson

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Nov 12, 2016, 5:02:36 PM11/12/16
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Hi Robert,

The placement of Henry Sothill, the king's attorney, as a younger son of Gerard Sothill of Redbourne is made by Canon Raine in Testamenta Eboracensia:

"Henry Sothill, a lawyer, a younger son of Gerard Sothill of Redburne, co. Lincoln, married Anne, only [sic] daughter of John Boyville of Stockfaston, co. Leicester, and eventually the heiress of that place."
J. Raine, ed., Testamenta Eboracensia: A Selection of Wills from the Registry at York, Vol. IV, Surtees Society 53, 1869, 169n.

Henry Sothill who married Elizabeth Nuthill was the younger brother of John Sothill of Everingham, therefore he was a son of John Sothill and Joan Poucher. Joan Poucher inherited the manor of Everingham from her mother Joan Ellis, who inherited it from her mother Joan Everingham.

Regards,
John

Robert O'Connor

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Nov 12, 2016, 6:37:40 PM11/12/16
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Hi John

Comments below:
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> The placement of Henry Sothill, the king's attorney, as a younger son of Gerard Sothill of Redbourne is made by Canon Raine in Testamenta Eboracensia:

I had interpreted that statement to be that Henry Sothill, the King's attorney general, was a son of Sir Gerard Sothill of Redbourne d 1410 (which seems to be the most common attribution of his parenthood). However, I agree that the statement in Testamenta Eboracensia could be read to refer to Gerard d 1463/4 the son. Chronologically that would make sense.


> "Henry Sothill, a lawyer, a younger son of Gerard Sothill of Redburne, co. Lincoln, married Anne, only [sic] daughter of John Boyville of Stockfaston, co. Leicester, and eventually the heiress of that place."
> J. Raine, ed., Testamenta Eboracensia: A Selection of Wills from the Registry at York, Vol. IV, Surtees Society 53, 1869, 169n.
>
> Henry Sothill who married Elizabeth Nuthill was the younger brother of John Sothill of Everingham, therefore he was a son of John Sothill and Joan Poucher. Joan Poucher inherited the manor of Everingham from her mother Joan Ellis, who inherited it from her mother Joan Everingham.

Indeed, and thus he could not be the same Henry as Henry, the King's attorney general. Thus Henry, the attorney general, could not be the son of John Sothill and Joan Poucher as suggested by Brice Claggett.

>
> Regards,
> John

Could I ask you to elaborate on which wife of Gerard d 1463/4 you think was was the mother of Henry, the attorney general? Lincolnshire Pedigrees gives Gerard d 1463/4 two wives - (1) Elizabeth, d. of John Fulnetby, and (2) --, d. of Sir Lionel Percehay. However, there is no mention there of a wife Isabel Fauconberge to whom you referred earlier?

Many thanks

Robert

John Watson

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Nov 13, 2016, 4:57:09 AM11/13/16
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Hi Robert,

In general, I don't trust visitation pedigrees compiled a hundred years or more afterwards, unless I can find some contemporary record to confirm the information.

The only contemporary record that I can find for any wife of Gerard Sothill, "the elder" who died before 22 June 1463* is below:

18 February 1460, Order to the escheator in the county of York; pursuant to an inquisition** taken before him showing that Roger Faucomberge on the day of his death held in his demesne as of fee (1) a manor called Thorp Halle, alias Thorp Garthe, (which extends to Brantyngham, Burgh by Elleton and North Cave), of the king as of the crown by service and yearly rent of 12d. for all other services, suits of court, wards, marriages, reliefs, exactions and demands; (2) 2 messuages, 2 tofts, 20 acres of arable land (to be sown yearly) and 10 acres of meadow in Est Burne, of Henry Vavasour esquire; and (3) the manor of Wythernwyk in Holdernes, of Humphrey duke of Buckingham; and that the said Roger died seised of the premises in his demesne as of fee; and that Isabel wife of Gerard Sothill (the elder) esquire is the sister and one of the next heirs of the said Roger, and Walter Notille the kinsman and other of the next heirs of Roger (to wit, son of Constance the other sister of Roger); and that the said Isabel and Walter are of full age; to take the fealty of the said Gerard and Walter, make a partition of the premises into two equal parts and cause the said Gerard and Isabel, and Walter, to have full seisin of the pourparties of Isabel and Walter of the manor called Thorp Halle which is held of the king as above; removing the king's hand from the pourparties of the rest of the premises, held as above of others than the king, and delivering to the said Gerard and Isabel, and to Walter, any issues taken therefrom since the time of the death of Roger; with proviso that each of the said heirs and parceners have a share of the said manor called Thorp Halle, and so be the king's tenant.
Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. 19, Henry VI: 1452-1461 (1939), 262.

In case you ask, I am unsure who Roger Faucomberge was. If I had to guess, I would say that he was possibly the grandson of Roger Faucomberge, brother of Sir Thomas Faucomberge, of Skelton who died in 1407.

*22 June 1463, Writ of diem clausit extremum: Gerard Sotehill, esquire; Lincoln.
Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. 20, Edward IV: 1461-1471 (1949), 94.

** 7 February 1460, Inquisition post mortem. Roger Faucomberge. Wythernwyk, Est Burne: Died 8 June 1455. His heirs being his sister Isabella, wife of Gerard Sothill senr. esq., aged over 40; and Walter Notyll, son of Constance another of his sisters, aged 26.
Hull History Centre, U DHO/7/15
http://catalogue.hullhistorycentre.org.uk/catalogue/U-DHO-7-15

See also:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/yorks/east/vol7/pp405-415#h3-0002

Regards,
John


John P. Ravilious

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Nov 13, 2016, 9:00:10 PM11/13/16
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Dear John, Robert, et al.,

Very glad to see a topic of personal interest, checking in after a long hiatus!

I have a feeling that Joan, wife of (1) Robert Wasselyn and (2) Sir Gerard Soothill, was a Salvain, and that the name Muriel is erroneous - unfortunately no evidence showing this to be the case has been found to date. There is an interesting will of Isabella Salvain from 1429 [Testamenta Ebor. I:418-419] but other than naming certain other relations, including interestingly her uncle Sir Robert Hilton of Swine (d. 1432) no light is shed on the subject at hand.

One of the details from the Visitation record can be corrected, however. The younger Gerard Soothill (b. 1398, d. 1463/4) is assigned two wives, the first a daughter of Fulnetby [the mother of his wife Joan who m. Gerard Lacy of Brearley] and the second allegedly a daughter of Leon or Lyon Percehay of Ryton. The latter of is interest to Paul Reed and others, given the apparent descent from this marriage of the immigrant William Wentworth. The record of the 1460 IPM of Roger Fauconberg or Faucomberge of Withernwick, co. Yorks &c. describes his heirs as (A) his sister Isabella, wife of Gerard Sothill senr. esq., aged over 40 and (B) Walter Notyll, son of Constance anotehr of his sisters, aged 26 [Hull History Centre, Docs relating to the Seigniory of Holderness, U DHO/7/15] . This information in fact dovetails with the pedigree record for Percehay, which shows that the wife of Edmund and MOTHER of Lyon Percehay was " Izabel doughter & on of theyres of Sir Walter Fauconbrydge of Whytton in Lyncolnshyre ” [HSP 16 p. 238].

The ancestry of the Fauconberg (or Fauconbridge) family of Withernwick, Yorks. and Whitton, Lincs. can be traced to one Thomas, possibly a younger brother (unproven as I have it) of John de Fauconbridge of Rise and Withernwick, whose father Sir Walter (d. 1318) allegedly granted 1 carucate and 2 bovates in Withernwick to Thomas [VCH Yorkshire ER vol. 7, pp. 405-415]. The Fauconberg pedigree provided by Poulson is problematic here and should not be taken at face value.

Cheers,

John

Robert O'Connor

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Nov 13, 2016, 10:28:50 PM11/13/16
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>
> One of the details from the Visitation record can be corrected, however. The younger Gerard Soothill (b. 1398, d. 1463/4) is assigned two wives, the first a daughter of Fulnetby [the mother of his wife Joan who m. Gerard Lacy of Brearley] and the second allegedly a daughter of Leon or Lyon Percehay of Ryton. The latter of is interest to Paul Reed and others, given the apparent descent from this marriage of the immigrant William Wentworth. The record of the 1460 IPM of Roger Fauconberg or Faucomberge of Withernwick, co. Yorks &c. describes his heirs as (A) his sister Isabella, wife of Gerard Sothill senr. esq., aged over 40 and (B) Walter Notyll, son of Constance anotehr of his sisters, aged 26 [Hull History Centre, Docs relating to the Seigniory of Holderness, U DHO/7/15] . This information in fact dovetails with the pedigree record for Percehay, which shows that the wife of Edmund and MOTHER of Lyon Percehay was " Izabel doughter & on of theyres of Sir Walter Fauconbrydge of Whytton in Lyncolnshyre ” [HSP 16 p. 238].
>
Hi John

With respect to your comment quoted above, I'm not sure that I understand how the reference in Roger Faucomberge's IPM to the wife of Gerard Sotehill (d 1463) being Isabel Faucomberge "dovetails" with the Lincolnshire Pedigrees assertion that Gerard Sotehill (d 1463) had two wives Fulnetby and Percehay? It seems to me that one is exclusive of the other, and that the IPM reference must trump (not in the US Presidential election sense) the Lincolnshire Pedigrees reference?

Regards
Robert

John Watson

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Nov 14, 2016, 3:47:34 AM11/14/16
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Dear John.

Nice to see you posting here again.

The original Faucomberge family of Withernwick appears to have died out in the male line in 1368 and I assume that Withernwick reverted back to the main line of the Skelton Faucomberge family.

The original descent can be easily followed from the calendar of inquisitions.

Thomas Faucomberge of Withernwick, born say 1292, most probably younger son of Walter Faucomberg (d. 1318) and Isabel Ros. On 18 July 1325, he was pardoned "for acquiring in tail from Walter de Fancomberge, a messuage, 2 tofts and 10 bovates of land in Wythornwyk, held in chief as of the honor of Albemarle" {CPR, Ed. II, vol. 5, 156). He died 20 October 1349 "in the great pestilence" leaving a son and heir Walter, aged 40 and more (CIPM, vol. 10, no. 255).

Walter Faucomberge of Withernwick, born say 1310, died 4 October 1362, leaving a son John aged 3/4 year (CIPM, vol. 11, no. 382).

John Faucomberge of Withernwick, born 1362, died a minor 5 October 1368, when his heir was his sister Agnes, aged 22 in 1381, when John's inquisition was finally held (CIPM, vol. 15, no. 345).

Thomas Faucomberge of Skelton who died in 1407 had a younger brother, Sir Roger Faucomberge, who predeceased his brother. Sir Roger's heir was his son Sir Walter Faucomberge, who is mentioned in the ipm of Thomas Faucomberge (CIPM, vol. 19, no. 386). Sir Walter Faucomberge died on 1 September 1415 (CIPM, vol. 20, no. 298-9). Unfortunately the ipm of Walter does not mention his heirs, and neither does his will (Early Lincoln Wills, 120) so the trail breaks at this point, but it seems likely to me that this Sir Walter Faucomberge was the father of Sir Roger Faucomberge (d. Jun 1455), Isabel, wife of Gerard Sothill and Constance wife of Anthony Nuthill.

If the visitation pedigree is correct, then Isabel Faucomberge must have married firstly, Edmund Percehay and secondly, Gerard Sothill. I have no information on the Percehay family. Do the dates stack up for Isabel born about 1410, as the mother of Lionel Percehay?

Regards,
John

John Watson

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Nov 14, 2016, 7:13:21 AM11/14/16
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On Monday, 14 November 2016 02:00:10 UTC, John P. Ravilious wrote:
Dear John,

I don't think that Walter Faucomberge (d. 1415) or Roger Faucomberge (d. 1455) was "of Whitton, Lincolnshire." That it may be the invention of an Elizabethan herald.

Whitton was held by the main Faucomberge of Skelton family. Thomas Faucomberge (d. 1407) granted Whitton to his son and heir John Faucomberge (executed in 1405) and Joan his wife.

Joan's inquisition post mortem in 1438 shows that she was still holding Whitton at her death and the manor reverted to Joan, wife of William Lord Neville and Faucomberge.
See: http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/25-193/194

Regards,
John

John P. Ravilious

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Nov 14, 2016, 7:27:55 PM11/14/16
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Hello Robert,

Apologies - my reference was not directly to the Soothill pedigree issues, but rather to the Percehay and Fauco[m]berg pedigrees which identify Isabel 'Percehay', wife of Gerard Soothill, as being only a Percehay by marriage. In particular see the Percehay pedigree in HSP 16.

Cheers,

John

John P. Ravilious

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Nov 14, 2016, 7:44:35 PM11/14/16
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Hello John (W),

The details you provided re: the antecedents of Roger Faucomberg and siblings was much appreciated - the printed pedigrees got this wrong, and the VCH account unfortunately is problematic as well. Yet more fun to be had as yet.

I have found reference to the IPM for Lionel Percehay, but I have not found this in print as yet. "PERCY, Leo., Knt." died 12 Sept 1482 [The Genealogist (192), XXXVI:110]. The skeletal detail this provides would permit Lionel to have been the son of Isabel Faucomberg, but further chronological evidence is wanting as yet.

Cheers,

John



PS By the bye, I relocated in my notes a reference to Elizabeth Nothill or Nuthill, wife of Henry Soothill (NOT the justice). She was a sister of Anthony Nuthill, husband of Constance Faucomberg (the other sister of Roger, 1455). Sir Anthony and his son Walter - Roger's coheir - were attainted ca 1461, so this line of Faucomberg descendants died out (a Soothill cousin of Walter's sought to overturn the attainder later).

John Watson

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Nov 15, 2016, 1:22:29 AM11/15/16
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Hi John,

Elizabeth, sister of Anthony Nuthill, married Henry Sothill, a younger brother of John Sothill of Everingham. She was the person who successfully petitioned the king in parliament for the reversal of the attainder of Anthony and Walter Nuthill in 1478. See: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/no-series/parliament-rolls-medieval/january-1478 Item 18

Regards,
John

John Watson

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Nov 15, 2016, 3:33:03 AM11/15/16
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Hi John,

I have been trying to find some dates for Edmund and Lionel Percehay.

29 January 1483, Writ of diem clausit extremum, Leo Percy, knight; York.
Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. 21, Edward IV, Edward V, Richard III: 1471-1485 (1961), 236.

There is a later inquisition into concealments, etc. for Lionel Percehay (Leo Percy), taken in October 1495. It says that he died on 20 December 1483, (obviously incorrect) leaving a son and heir Lionel aged over 40. Assuming that he was aged over 40 in 1483, the younger Lionel was born before 1443, which would probably put his father's birth date before 1420.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/series2-vol3/pp589-591 No. 1181.

See also the footnote on the Percehay pedigree in HSP 16, which indicates that Edmund Percehay and Isabel were married before December 1437.
"This John [Percehay] by Indentuer of Morgage dated 12 December in A° 16 of Henry VI [12 Dec 1437]. should enfoffe the londs w'th other coofeffes at the domination of the said lord in the Manors of Flyxboroo, Flixborough Stather, Conyngsby, Normanby, Thelby, Burton Stather, Crosby, & Wyntertun, in Lyncolnshyre, which were sometyme the lands of Robert Darcy of Flyxboroo Parke, to the intent to make estate to Edmond his son & Izabell his wyff in fee-tayle."
Charles Best Norcliffe, ed., The Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and 1564 Made by William Flower Esquire, Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Society, 16 (London, 1881), 238n.

Regards,
John

Robert O'Connor

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Nov 16, 2016, 2:12:52 AM11/16/16
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>
> Apologies - my reference was not directly to the Soothill pedigree issues, but rather to the Percehay and Fauco[m]berg pedigrees which identify Isabel 'Percehay', wife of Gerard Soothill, as being only a Percehay by marriage. In particular see the Percehay pedigree in HSP 16.
>
Thank you for that clarification John. The notion that Isabel married first Edmund Percehay and second Gerard Sothill appears to make sense.

Regards
Robert

Robert O'Connor

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Nov 16, 2016, 3:04:36 AM11/16/16
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Question below:

> Dear John.
>
> Nice to see you posting here again.
>
> The original Faucomberge family of Withernwick appears to have died out in the male line in 1368 and I assume that Withernwick reverted back to the main line of the Skelton Faucomberge family.
>
> The original descent can be easily followed from the calendar of inquisitions.
>
> Thomas Faucomberge of Withernwick, born say 1292, most probably younger son of Walter Faucomberg (d. 1318) and Isabel Ros. On 18 July 1325, he was pardoned "for acquiring in tail from Walter de Fancomberge, a messuage, 2 tofts and 10 bovates of land in Wythornwyk, held in chief as of the honor of Albemarle" {CPR, Ed. II, vol. 5, 156). He died 20 October 1349 "in the great pestilence" leaving a son and heir Walter, aged 40 and more (CIPM, vol. 10, no. 255).
>
> Walter Faucomberge of Withernwick, born say 1310, died 4 October 1362, leaving a son John aged 3/4 year (CIPM, vol. 11, no. 382).
>
> John Faucomberge of Withernwick, born 1362, died a minor 5 October 1368, when his heir was his sister Agnes, aged 22 in 1381, when John's inquisition was finally held (CIPM, vol. 15, no. 345).
>
QUESTION - do we know who was the father of the following Thomas (d 1407)?

Robert O'Connor

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Nov 16, 2016, 3:30:14 AM11/16/16
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In answer to my own question, I see that this Thomas d 1407 was in fact Thomas, 5th Baron Faucomberge.

Robert

John Watson

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Nov 16, 2016, 4:23:43 PM11/16/16
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On Saturday, 12 November 2016 23:37:40 UTC, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>
>
> Could I ask you to elaborate on which wife of Gerard d 1463/4 you think was was the mother of Henry, the attorney general? Lincolnshire Pedigrees gives Gerard d 1463/4 two wives - (1) Elizabeth, d. of John Fulnetby, and (2) --, d. of Sir Lionel Percehay. However, there is no mention there of a wife Isabel Fauconberge to whom you referred earlier?
>
> Many thanks
>
> Robert

Hi Robert,

Now that I have had time to look into this a bit further, I think that the mother of of Henry Sothill, the king's attorney, was Elizabeth Fulnetby.

The pedigree seems to be almost correct. Gerard Sothill had two wives, Elizabeth, daughter of John Fulnetby and Isabel Faucomberge, the MOTHER of Lionel Percehay.

There are not a lot of available sources for the Fulnetby of Fulnetby family. John Ravilious posted a tentative pedigree here in 2007.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2007-06/1183074124

It appears that John Fulnetby and his wife Joan, daughter of Thomas Tours had a son John and a daughter Elizabeth who married Gerard Sothill. The younger John died in 1456. There is perhaps a clue in his will where he leaves a cloak? (togam) to Henry Sothill, who was presumably his nephew (the attorney).
See: Alfred W. Gibbons, ed., Early Lincoln Wills (1888), 183.
https://archive.org/stream/earlylincolnwil00gibbgoog#page/n196/mode/1up

Regards,
John

John Watson

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Nov 16, 2016, 7:24:41 PM11/16/16
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On Monday, 14 November 2016 12:13:21 UTC, John Watson wrote:

>
> Dear John,
>
> I don't think that Walter Faucomberge (d. 1415) or Roger Faucomberge (d. 1455) was "of Whitton, Lincolnshire." That it may be the invention of an Elizabethan herald.
>
> Whitton was held by the main Faucomberge of Skelton family. Thomas Faucomberge (d. 1407) granted Whitton to his son and heir John Faucomberge (executed in 1405) and Joan his wife.
>
> Joan's inquisition post mortem in 1438 shows that she was still holding Whitton at her death and the manor reverted to Joan, wife of William Lord Neville and Faucomberge.
> See: http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/25-193/194
>
> Regards,
> John

I stand corrected. Lionel Percehay, the younger (d. 1517) was holding the manor of Whitton, Lincolnshire in 1508. He presumably inherited it from his grandmother, Isabel Faucomberge.

CP 25/1/145/165, number 80.
County: Lincolnshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One week from St John the Baptist, 23 Henry VII [1 July 1508].
Parties: John Rouclyff', knight, Guy Palmes, serjeant-at-law, Andrew Wyndesore, esquire, Brian Palmes, esquire, Christopher Seyntgerman, John Heslarto' and Richard Bunney, querents, and Leo Percy and Katherine, his wife, and Walter Percy, deforciants.
Property: The manor of Whitton' and 20 messuages, 200 acres of land, 60 acres of meadow, 200 acres of pasture, 10 acres of wood, 100 acres of marsh, 8 acres of heath and 40 shillings of rent in Whittyn'.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Leo and Katherine and Walter have acknowledged the manor and tenements to be the right of Guy, as those which Guy, John, Andrew, Brian, Christopher, John and Richard have of their gift, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Katherine to John, Guy, Andrew, Brian, Christopher, John and Richard and the heirs of Guy for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: John, Guy, Andrew, Brian, Christopher, John and Richard have given them 500 pounds sterling.
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_145_165.shtml#80

Regards,
John

jeremys...@gmail.com

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Nov 17, 2016, 1:36:46 AM11/17/16
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>
> Hi Robert,
>
> Now that I have had time to look into this a bit further, I think that the mother of of Henry Sothill, the king's attorney, was Elizabeth Fulnetby.
>
> The pedigree seems to be almost correct. Gerard Sothill had two wives, Elizabeth, daughter of John Fulnetby and Isabel Faucomberge, the MOTHER of Lionel Percehay.
>
> There are not a lot of available sources for the Fulnetby of Fulnetby family. John Ravilious posted a tentative pedigree here in 2007.
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2007-06/1183074124
>
> It appears that John Fulnetby and his wife Joan, daughter of Thomas Tours had a son John and a daughter Elizabeth who married Gerard Sothill. The younger John died in 1456. There is perhaps a clue in his will where he leaves a cloak? (togam) to Henry Sothill, who was presumably his nephew (the attorney).
> See: Alfred W. Gibbons, ed., Early Lincoln Wills (1888), 183.
> https://archive.org/stream/earlylincolnwil00gibbgoog#page/n196/mode/1up
>
> Regards,
> John

Very many thanks John. Given the reference to Henry Sothill in the 1456 will of John Fulnetby it looks fairly clear that Henry Sothill[the attorney general]'s mother was indeed Elizabeth Fulnetby, and not Isabel Faucomberg. It is a shame, as Isabel Faucomberge appeared to have a line of descent from Henry II.

However, I think it is less clear which of Gerard Sothill's (d 1463) wives was the mother of his other children.

Regards
Robert
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