Somerled of the Isles: Maternal ancestry?
J Garner
I have a question re: the mother of Somerled, 1st King of the Isles (b c
1105-d Jan 1, 1164).
I have come across several sources (most recently, Mike Ashley's "British
Kings & Queens", which I consider a very well-researched source re: both
genealogy and historical events & timelines) that give Somerled's mother as
the daughter of Jarl Sigurd II of Orkney. The problem I have is that Sigurd
died at the Battle of Clontarf on April 23, 1014, whereas Somerled was born
circa 1105, making even a post-humous daughter of Sigurd some 90 years old
when giving birth.
New theories re: Somerled's mother? Or am I missing something here?
Regards
Jay Garner
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/g/a/r/J-H-Garner/?Welcome=1031366
203
The...@aol.com
Hello Jay,
In addition to chronology, the other problem with the alleged maternal
descent of Somerled from Sigurd Hlodversson is seen in the ancestry of
Somerled's wife.
Somerled's wife was Ragnhild, daughter of Olaf Morsel ['Tit-bit' in the
Orkneyinga Saga], King of Man and the Isles (d. 1153) by Ingeborg
Hakonsdottir [1], daughter of Hakon Paulsson, Jarl of the Orkneys (d. 1126).
Hakon was a great-grandson of Sigurd Hlodversson; this would make Ragnhild
Olafsdottir the ggg granddaughter of Sigurd.
The above situation makes such an alleged descent for Somerled highly
unlikely; the chronology makes it virtually impossible. Somerled's maternity
was not mentioned in the Orkneyinga Saga; perhaps Stewart or another of the
list has put forward a theory here, which you might find in the SGM archives.
Hope this is helpful.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John *
* John P. Ravilious
NOTES
[1] Contrary to the above identification given in the
Orkneyinga Saga, some [Stewart Baldwin included as
I recall] contend that Aufrica of Galloway was the
mother of Ragnhild and the other children of Olaf
Morsel. See prior SGM posts in the archives.
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>I have a question re: the mother of Somerled, 1st King of the Isles (b c
>1105-d Jan 1, 1164).
>
>I have come across several sources (most recently, Mike Ashley's "British
>Kings & Queens", which I consider a very well-researched source re: both
>genealogy and historical events & timelines) that give Somerled's mother as
>the daughter of Jarl Sigurd II of Orkney. The problem I have is that Sigurd
>died at the Battle of Clontarf on April 23, 1014, whereas Somerled was born
>circa 1105, making even a post-humous daughter of Sigurd some 90 years old
>when giving birth.
>
>New theories re: Somerled's mother? Or am I missing something here?
It is impossible for Somerled to have been a grandson of Sigurd, and
you have already pointed out the reason. Mike Ashley's "Mammoth Book
of British Kings and Queens" is an unreliable source, which should be
avoided. See my review article of the book in "The American
Genealogist" [TAG] 76 (2001), 62-5, and you can also find discussions
of the book in the archives of this group.
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
> Somerled's wife was Ragnhild, daughter of Olaf Morsel ['Tit-bit' in the
>Orkneyinga Saga], King of Man and the Isles (d. 1153) by Ingeborg
>Hakonsdottir [1], daughter of Hakon Paulsson, Jarl of the Orkneys (d. 1126).
>Hakon was a great-grandson of Sigurd Hlodversson; this would make Ragnhild
>Olafsdottir the ggg granddaughter of Sigurd.
The Chronicle of the kings of Man contradicts the statements of the
sagas by stating that the mother of Somerled's wife was a concubine of
Olaf. I am inclined to think that this native Manx source is more
reliable on this point than the sagas.
For more details on this, see my page on the kings of Man at the
GEN-MEDIEVAL/soc.genealogy.medieval website:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/man.htm
Stewart Baldwin
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
This is from Orkneysaga & Scots Peerage...
I got at least part of it from Ravillious, but
it seems in conflict with what he recently posted:
"Somerled's wife was Ragnhild, daughter of Olaf Morsel ['Tit-bit' in the Orkneyinga Saga],
King of Man and the Isles (d. 1153) by Ingeborg Hakonsdottir [1],
daughter of Hakon Paulsson, Jarl of the Orkneys (d. 1126)." (Therav)
4 Haakon Paulson, Jarl of the Orkneys, d 1126 m. Ragnhild, dau of Olaf "Titbit" King of the Hebrides (Therav)
Perhaps you'd crosscheck, correct, addition & comment?
Descent of Sommerled & Lords of the Isles from Sigurd the Viking
(Coeval with Brusse, Earl of Caithness & Sunderland, d 1031, (& his son,
Rognvald/Ranald d 1046, a General in army of Olaf of Norway;
His son m Felicia of Normandy & was the first to be called "Rbt the Brusse/Brus")
(Brusse was a Companion of Rollon the Viking aka Rbt duc of Normandy --
& ancestor of Adam de Brus, who replaced the original wooden forteresse at
Brix with a stone one, now in ruins, lasting into the 12th century & the family's
return to the main seat, in Skelton, ...)
Descent of Sommerled & Lords of the Isles from Sigurd the Viking
1 Sigurd Holfinnsson, Jarl of the Orkneys d 1014 m a dau of Malcolm II, King of Alba
2 Thorfinn Sigurdsson, Jarl of the Orkneys, d 1065
3 Paul Thorfinson, Jarl of the Orkneys d 1099 m. Ragnhild d'Haakonlvarson, son of Magnus I, king of Norway
4 Haakon Paulson, Jarl of the Orkneys, d 1126 m. Ragnhild, dau of Olaf "Titbit" King of the Hebrides
5 Olaf Godrodson, King of Man & the Isles d 1153
6 Somhairle (Sommerled) Orkneysaga
7 Ragnhaill/Rognvald/Ranald
8 Domhnaill MacRagnhaill MicSomhairle (Donald, son of Ranald, son of Somerled)
9 Angus Mor MacDonald 1249-1301, Ist Lord of the Isles
10 Angus Og MacDonald 1272-1330, 2nd Lord of the Isles
11 Sir John MacDonald,d 1334, 3rd Lord of the Isles, m Princesse Margaret Stewart, granddau of Rbt the Bruce
12 Ranald of Lochaber b 1310
Im hoping somebody knows or can find, any descendance for Ranald of Lochaber, legit or not, in addition to his
his known heir...
J Garner
I want to clear up a couple things up though:
I have the Margaret Stewart who married Sir John MacDonald of the Isles as
the great granddaughter of Robert the Bruce. I have the marriage in 1350,
with Sir John MacDonald's death in 1378 (per History of the O'Briens, per
Univ. of Hull).
Is this an erroneous death date, as well as marriage contract date, if he in
fact died in 1334?
Somerled's wife was the daughter of Olaf "Bitling" of Man, d. 1153, not
Somerled himself being Olaf's son (maybe this is what you meant, but your
descent confused me). I have Somerled as the son of Giolla/Gillebride
Brighid (aka Gillebride), the Thane of Argyll. Gillebride was descended
from the kings of Dublin and Waterford.
It appears there are no accepted answers re: whom Somerled's mother was, per
the first response to my question by John Ravilious.
Thank you all for your information.
Regards
Jay Garner
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/g/a/r/J-H-Garner/?Welcome=1031433
808
""Annie Natalelli-Waloszek"" <xan...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:086a01c256a2$36ffce20$a734f9c1@AnnieMobileUnit...
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
My point however, was to find out which of Ravillious' (therav)'s versions of Ragnhild's marriage he now considers valid & why...& where sourced the old & new versions...
John Ravilious
Dear Annie,
Only noted from your message this weekend that there was a
conflict in your records or notes, apparently from information I have
provided previously. I will note any corrections below, interspersed
with your text. [I have left the text as originally posted for ease
of crossreference]
xan...@wanadoo.fr ("Annie Natalelli-Waloszek") wrote in message news:<086a01c256a2$36ffce20$a734f9c1@AnnieMobileUnit>...
> dearRavillious, Stewart et al
>
> This is from Orkneysaga & Scots Peerage...
> I got at least part of it from Ravillious, but
> it seems in conflict with what he recently posted:
>
> "Somerled's wife was Ragnhild, daughter of Olaf Morsel ['Tit-bit' in the Orkneyinga Saga],
> King of Man and the Isles (d. 1153) by Ingeborg Hakonsdottir [1],
> daughter of Hakon Paulsson, Jarl of the Orkneys (d. 1126)." (Therav)
>
> 4 Haakon Paulson, Jarl of the Orkneys, d 1126 m. Ragnhild, dau of Olaf "Titbit" King of the Hebrides (Therav)
******** Ragnhild was actually the wife of Somerled. The 'wife' of
Jarl Haakon was not his wife, or at least not considered so
canonically [The Orkneyinga Saga states she was not his
wife]. By Helga, daughter of Moddan of Caithness (a
wealthy farmer of Caithness) he was the father of Ingeborg,
aka Ingeborg Haakonsdottir, wife of Olaf 'Morsel' or
'Tit-bit' [Orkneyinga Saga, chap. 53] ********************
>
> Perhaps you'd crosscheck, correct, addition & comment?
>
> Descent of Sommerled & Lords of the Isles from Sigurd the Viking
> (Coeval with Brusse, Earl of Caithness & Sunderland, d 1031, (& his son,
> Rognvald/Ranald d 1046, a General in army of Olaf of Norway;
> His son m Felicia of Normandy & was the first to be called "Rbt the Brusse/Brus")
> (Brusse was a Companion of Rollon the Viking aka Rbt duc of Normandy --
> & ancestor of Adam de Brus, who replaced the original wooden forteresse at
> Brix with a stone one, now in ruins, lasting into the 12th century & the family's
> return to the main seat, in Skelton, ...)
>
> Descent of Sommerled & Lords of the Isles from Sigurd the Viking
> 1 Sigurd Holfinnsson, Jarl of the Orkneys d 1014 m a dau of Malcolm II, King of Alba
> 2 Thorfinn Sigurdsson, Jarl of the Orkneys, d 1065
> 3 Paul Thorfinson, Jarl of the Orkneys d 1099 m. Ragnhild d'Haakonlvarson, son of Magnus I, king of Norway
> 4 Haakon Paulson, Jarl of the Orkneys, d 1126 m. Ragnhild, dau of Olaf "Titbit" King of the Hebrides
********** as noted above, Haakon ~ Helga Moddansdottir
(not married)
> 5 Olaf Godrodson, King of Man & the Isles d 1153
********* Gen. 5 should be:
5 Ingeborg Haakonsdottir, m. Olaf Gudrodson, aka Olaf 'Morsel',
aka Olaf 'Titbit'
> 6 Somhairle (Sommerled) Orkneysaga
******** Gen. 6 should be:
6 Ragnhild Olafsdottir aka Ragnhild of Man, m. Somerled
[cf. Orkneyinga Saga, chap. 100]
> 7 Ragnhaill/Rognvald/Ranald
> 8 Domhnaill MacRagnhaill MicSomhairle (Donald, son of Ranald, son of Somerled)
> 9 Angus Mor MacDonald 1249-1301, Ist Lord of the Isles
******* I have Angus Mor as d. 1296 ****************
> 10 Angus Og MacDonald 1272-1330, 2nd Lord of the Isles
> 11 Sir John MacDonald,d 1334, 3rd Lord of the Isles, m Princesse Margaret Stewart, granddau of Rbt the Bruce
******* I have Eoin, aka John 'the Good', as d. 1387 [see his
career details in Scots Peerage]
Also, his wife Princess Margaret was a great-granddaughter
of Robert the Bruce; her father was Robert II, aka
Robert the Stewart, King of Scots 1371-1390 [her
mother was Elizabeth Mure, first wife of Robert]
Princess Margaret was Eoin MacDonald's 2nd wife *******
> 12 Ranald of Lochaber b 1310
******* This Ranald was probably the son of Amy, aka Amy
MacRuarie, first wife of Eoin
>
> Im hoping somebody knows or can find, any descendance for Ranald of Lochaber, legit or not, in addition to his
> his known heir...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stewart Baldwin
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 4:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Somerled of the Isles: Maternal ancestry?
>
>
> On Sat, 7 Sep 2002 03:12:31 +0000 (UTC), The...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Somerled's wife was Ragnhild, daughter of Olaf Morsel ['Tit-bit' in the
> >Orkneyinga Saga], King of Man and the Isles (d. 1153) by Ingeborg
> >Hakonsdottir [1], daughter of Hakon Paulsson, Jarl of the Orkneys (d. 1126).
> >Hakon was a great-grandson of Sigurd Hlodversson; this would make Ragnhild
> >Olafsdottir the ggg granddaughter of Sigurd.
>
> The Chronicle of the kings of Man contradicts the statements of the
> sagas by stating that the mother of Somerled's wife was a concubine of
> Olaf. I am inclined to think that this native Manx source is more
> reliable on this point than the sagas.
>
> For more details on this, see my page on the kings of Man at the
> GEN-MEDIEVAL/soc.genealogy.medieval website:
>
> http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/man.htm
>
> Stewart Baldwin
*****************
Hope this helps.
John
Phil Moody
> Descent of Sommerled & Lords of the Isles from Sigurd the Viking
> 1 Sigurd Holfinnsson, Jarl of the Orkneys d 1014 m a dau of Malcolm II,
King of Alba
> 2 Thorfinn Sigurdsson, Jarl of the Orkneys, d 1065
> 3 Paul Thorfinson, Jarl of the Orkneys d 1099 m. Ragnhild d'Haakonlvarson,
son of Magnus I, king of Norway
PLM: Annie, you have Paul's spousal data incorrect. Haakon Ivarsson married
Ragnhild, the daughter of Magnus I of Norway. Haakon cannot be the son of
Magnus, if his patronymic is "Ivar's son." Paul did marry the daughter of
Hákon Ivarsson, but there is not enough evidense to say with certainty, that
her name was Ragnhild; although it would be a fair assumption.
Hákon's father was Ívarr Hvíti (the white), who is said to be the son of
a daughter of Hákon Sigurdsson (inn Riki), ruler of Norway from 970-995, per
the Heimskringla, and goes on to assert that Ivarr is the one who slew Jarl
Ulf inside Roskilde Cathedral, upon Canute's order. Morkinskinna, which
predates Heimskringla, makes no mention of Ivar's relationship to Earl Hákon
Sigurdson.
Morkinskinna
2000, copyright Cornell University Press
APPENDIX B
The Latin Compendium of Hákon Ívarsson
The Latin "compendium" (or summary) is preserved in a manuscript belonging
to the prominent sixteenth-century Danish historian Anders Sørensen Vedel
(1542-1616). It is assumed (Hákonar saga 1953:XV) that Vedel did not make
the summary himself but took it over from an Icelander who had access to a
complete version of Hákonar saga Ívarssonar in a manuscript differing
somewhat from the manuscript that the four fragments discussed in the
Introduction (AM 570a 4 to). Since some of the material in Vedel's
manuscript can be attributed to the Icelandic humanist Arngrímur Jónsson
(1568-1644), Jón Helgason and Jakob Benediktsson suggest that Arngrímur may
also be responsible for the compendium, which he could have executed in
Copenhagen in the winter of 1592-1593 (Hákonar saga 1953:XVI). A comparison
of the compendium with the differing summaries in Morkinskinna and
Heimskringla shows clearly that it is in line with Heimskringla. Snorri also
made use of Morkinskinna, but in his treatment of Hákon Ívarsson he seems to
have relied largely on the independent Hákonar saga Ívarssonar. Morkinskinna
is sufficiently divergent that it cannot very well come from the same
source. Jón Helgason and Jakob Benediktson (Hákonar saga 1953:XXXIX) allow
for the possibility that the author of Hákonar saga knew Morkinskinna, but
they are more inclined to accept Bjarni Aðalbjarnarson's view (1937:153-54)
that the saga and Morkinskinna are independent versions of the same
tradition. We have seen ("The Native Sources,") Bjarne Fidjestøl demurred
and returned to the idea that the saga author knew Morkinskinna and chose to
depart from it in order to provide a fuller narrative.
The compendium is translated from the text in the 1953 edition (pp. 38-40).
Since the summary is in somewhat telegraphic style, we have provided
clarifications in square brackets. We also include in square brackets
references to relevant comments in the 1953 edition (abbreviated simply
"ed.").
512
The Latin Compendium of Hákon Ívarsson
Hákon Ívarsson received two ships and went to Denmark, [then to] England,
[where he was] especially attached to Edward the Confessor.
Einarr, having at a certain meeting [in the margin: in Kaupangr, ed. XIX]
rescued a thief from the gallows, incurred the wrath of King Haraldr, and
after his son was overcome in the anteroom by the king's guards, he was
himself killed at the king's behest but only after the king was wounded
through his chin mail by Einarr's spear [ed. XIX].
The voice of his son was heard: "I feel the fangs of the king's dogs [ed.
XIX]."
[The king] was secretly angry at him [Einarr] because he had supported
Magnús in refusing Haraldr part of the realm. For that reason, Haraldr was
in the habit of saying that as long as Einarr was alive, he would not be
recognized as sole king of Norway.
King Haraldr achieved a reconciliation with the farmers, who were in a fury
over Einarr's killing, through the offices of Finnr Árnason. With a similar
intent, and with the agreement of Hákon, who was guided by the
representations and counsel of Ormr Eilífsson, Finnr's nephew, [Haraldr] set
about betrothing Magnús's daughter Ragnhildr to Hákon Ívarsson under his own
roof. The district chieftain Ormr married Sigríðr, the daughter of Finnr,
and Haraldr married Finnr's granddaughter Þóra, the daughter of Þorbergr.
The dead were laid to rest in St. Oláfr's Church and the king departed from
Kaupangr, leaving the reconciliation to be arranged by Finnr, with a double
compensation committed for Einarr and a single one for Eindriði.
Having been entertained at a feast, Hákon proposed to Ragnhildr at the
conclusion of the feast, but she refused on the ground that she was a
princess and at the very least entitled to a marriage with a district
chieftain. [Hákon] reported this back to Haraldr, who stated that he could
not abolish the custom of having only one district chieftain, a custom that
went back to the time of Magnús. With that, they parted.
Therefore, [Hákon] went to Sveinn Úlfsson in Denmark and was well received.
There was an Ásmundr at Sveinn's court, a nephew on his sisters side, who
debauched many woman [ed. XX] and led a reprehensible life. Dismissed from
the court as a result, he went to the provinces, where he joined forces with
some companions and carried out villainous raids on the king's lands.
Captured once, he escaped; captured again, he escaped a second time and
engaged in piracy, inflicting many evils on the Danes. Therefore Hákon was
sent to contain and apprehend him. Attacking him with one ship against
three, he
513
captured him and carried off his head, which he threw down at the feet of
King Sveinn.
Sveinn, regretting the deed, later sent word to Hákon to leave the realm.
Having returned to Norway, he was appointed district chieftain in the place
of the deceased Ormr, and he was married to Ragnhildr. With intercession
made on his behalf, Kálfr Árnason, having returned to his native soil, was
accepted again into the king's good graces after he had been abroad as an
exile in England and Orkney.
When a number of battles had been waged between Sveinn and Haraldr, Haraldr
sailed with a fleet to Denmark and attacked Fyn (Fünen), where the farmers
had gathered forces. He sent Kálfr Árnason ahead, saying that he would
follow, but Kálfr fell before the superior forces of the farmers and was
later found by Haraldr. After defeating the farmers, Haraldr returned to
Norway in no very good odor with the farmers or the friends of Kálfr. Finnr
was openly hostile and went over to Sveinn, who appointed him as the
governor of Halland.
Haraldr subsequently challenged Sveinn to a naval battle in Vik [ad
Vichensem amnem, ed. XXI], bringing with him Hákon Ívarsson with three
ships. The fleet numbered 150 ships. Having raided in Halland, Óláfr [recte:
Haraldr, ed. XXI] was found by Sveinn in Lófufjorðr. There they met at sea,
and Hákon rallied the Norwegian fleet, which had thrice been put to flight.
Sveinn escaped with the aid of Hákon, after approaching his ship and
calling himself Vandráðr. [Sveinn] was sent to a farmer in Halland, etc.
Finnr was captured, etc.
This was the battle of Niz. Later, Sveinn summoned the farmer to him and
gave him the command of Zealand, granting him a fertile estate. His wife was
forced to remain at home where she was, in Halland.
Eventually, Sveinn's escape from the battle with Hákon's help was revealed
because of the quarreling of some drunken soldiers, with Hákon shown to be
superior to all others in the science and practice of war and the cunning
with which he rescued Sveinn. Avoiding the wrath of Haraldr, he fled to
Sweden. Subsequently, he supported three of Haraldr's chieftains in Upplond.
The people of Opplond refused tribute to Haraldr.
Peace between the kings Sveinn and Haraldr. Haraldr entered Sweden, with
his ships brought into Lake Vänern. Hákon marched against him with a very
precious banner given him by his wife, which she in turn had received from
her father. With it came the warning either to return in possession of it
or, in the event it was lost, not to return at all. Þorviðr the Stout fled
when his horse pulled up a hitching stake [tyrstage, ed. XVII] that struck
him in the forehead. The chieftain's [Hákon's] standard-bearer fell and the
banner was taken from him, but he [Hákon] took it back, killing the man who
had seized it. Later, Haraldr avenged himself in Upplond.
514
When Haraldr was later killed in England, Hákon was taken into favor again
by Óláfr kyri and returned to his native country. He was survived by two
daughters.
The first married Hákon the Norwegian, by whom she had Erik, called the
Wise or Lamb, the King of Denmark.
The second married Páll, the chieftain of Orkney, by whom she had Hákon
[ed. XXV].
515
End
Here is what Morkinskinna has to say about Hákon Ívarsson's children (page
243):
But Jarl Hákon was reputed to be a very outstanding man. His daughter was
named Sunnifa and his son Hákon, who was married to the daughter of King
Sveinn Úlfsson. Their son was Eiríkr Lam, the king of the Danes.*27* Here
the story of Jarl Hákon and King Haraldr ends.
27. (page 442) The Latin "Compendium" gives a somewhat different
genealogical account, saying that Hákon had two daughters (both unnamed),
one of whom was married to "Hákon the Norwegian," by whom she had Erik Lam.
According to Knýtlinga saga (ÍF 35, 231), "Hákon the Norwegian," who was
married to Ragnhildr, the daughter of Erik Ejegod, was the son of Hákon
Ívarsson's daughter Sunnifa. Their son was Erik Lam. Fagrskinna and
Heimskringla give no genealogical information, but the "Arnmoðlingatal" (ÍF
29, 373) agrees with the "Compendium" that Hákon's daughter was married to
Jarl Páll Þorfinnsson of Orkney and was the mother of Hákon jarl. See
Genealogy V in ÍF 28 and Orkneyinga saga, Ch. 35 (ÍF 34, 89).
Best Wishes,
Phil