C.P. Addition: Thomas Kyme, Esq., husband of Cecily Plantagenet, daughter of King Edward IV

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage 12(2) (1959): 448-450 (sub Welles) has a good account of John Welles, K.G., Viscount Welles, who died in 1499. John, Viscount Welles, was uncle of the half blood to King Henry VII of England. His marriage to Cecily Plantagenet, daughter of King Edward IV, and sister of Elizabeth, wife of King Henry VII, is discussed by Complete Peerage:

"He married, between the Queen's Coronation, 25 Nov. 1487, and 1 Jan. 1487/8, Cecily, sister of Elizabeth, the Queen Consort, 3rd daughter of Edward IV, by Elizabeth, daughter of Richard (Wydvill), 1st Earl Rivers. He died s.p.s. 9 Feb. 1498/9 at 'Pasmer's Place,' in St. Sithes Lane, aged about 50, and was buried in some state at Westminster Abbey ... His widow [Cecily] married, possibly after 13 May 1502 and before Jan.-Mar. 1503/4, Thomas Kyme, of whom nothing more is known. She, who was born 20 March 1468/9, and is said to have lived with her 2nd husband at East Standen, in the Isle of Wight, died 24 August 1507, aged 38, and is said to have been buried there in Quarr Abbey. Apparently she died s.p." END OF QUOTE.

Among other things, Complete Peerage overlooked Cecily Plantagenet's first marriage to Ralph Scrope, Esq. (later Knt.), of Upsall, Yorkshire (later 9th Lord Scrope of Masham or Upsall), which marriage was dissolved in 1486. For evidence of this marriage, see my article in Foundations 1(3) (2004): 175–177.

Complete Peerage tells us little about Cecily Plantagenet's third husband, Thomas Kyme, Esq., of Friskney, Lincolnshire, who I have identified in an earlier thread here on the newsgroup as the son and heir of John Kyme, Esq., of Friskney and Wainfleet, Lincolnshire, by his 1st wife, Joan, daughter of John Willoughby, Knt., of Kirton in Holland, Lincolnshire. Thomas Kyme was born about 1464 (aged 40 in 1504). He married previously an unknown wife, _____, by whom he had one son, Thomas, Esq.

We can add some additional details of Thomas Kyme's life. Contemporary records indicate that he served on a Lincolnshire commission in 1495.

Sometime in the period, 1518–29, Edith Darnall, late the wife of John Kyme, Esq., sued her step-son, Thomas Kyme, son and heir of the said John, in Chancery regarding an annuity due to complainant in lieu of dower in messuages and lands in Friskney and Trusthorpe, Lincolnshire [Reference: National Archives, C 1/499/37 (available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp)].

In 1521 Clement Lyndesey sued Thomas Kyme, Esq., of Friskney, Lincolnshire regarding a debt Common Pleas, CP40/1031, rot. 565d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/H8/CP40no1031/bCP40no1031dorses/IMG_0565.htm)].

The following two records may pertain to Thomas Kyme the younger:

In 1523 John Roper sued Thomas Kyme, Gent., of Friskney, Lincolnshire in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt Common Pleas, CP40/1038, rot. 865d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/H8/CP40no1038/aCP40no1038fronts/IMG_0865.htm)].

In 1525 Thomas Kyme, Gent., and two others, co-executors of William Austen, of Little Steeping, Lincolnshire, merchant of the Staple of Calais, sued William Lincoln, of Louth, Lincolnshire, Merchant of the Staple of Calais, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt [Reference: Common Pleas, CP40/1046, rot. 713d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/H8/CP40no1046/bCP40no1046dorses/IMG_0713.htm)].

Thomas Kyme, Esq. (late husband of Cecily Plantagenet) presumably died before 1529–32, when Thomas Kyme, his son and heir, was said to hold land in Friskney, Lincolnshire, as indicated by the following record:

Sometime in the period, 1529–32, Edmund Elvyn, grandson and heir of John Hode sued William Plattes, chaplain, in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating to land in Friskney, Lincolnshire held by Thomas, son and heir of Thomas Kyme [Reference: National Archives, C 1/629/1 (available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).

The elder Thomas Kyme was certainly dead before 1535, when his son was styled Thomas Kyme, Esq., alias Thomas Kyme, Junior, Gent. in a lawsuit. The son was presumably styled "Esquire" in 1535, he doubtless having then succeeded to his father's lands. Here is that record:

In 1535 Thomas Robertson, and two others, executors of Thomas Robertson, late of Boston, Lincolnshire, Merchant of the Staple of Calais, sued Thomas Kyme, Esq., of Friskney, Lincolnshire (alias Thomas Kyme, Junior, Gent., of Friskney, Lincolnshire), and Robert Thory, of Winthorp, Lincolnshire, yeoman in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt [Reference: Common Pleas, CP40/1084, rot. 1384f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1084/aCP40no1084fronts/IMG_1384.htm)].

In summary, there is a continuous record of Thomas Kyme, Esq., of Friskney, Lincolnshire up through 1521. At this point, it is difficult to distinguish him from his son, Thomas, in contemporary records. The elder Thomas Kyme, Esq., probably died before 1529-32, and certainly before 1535.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Brian Hessick]

This may help with the timeline.


Thomas Darnall, clerk of the Pipe of the Exchequer and engrosser of the Great Roll.[1] Married Edith d/o Edmund Chatterton, by his wife Edith Hall,[2] wid. of John Kyme Esq. of Friskney, Lincs.[3] Granted the office of engrosser of the Great Roll on 16 May 1508.[4] Died sometime between 20 April-October 1515.[5]


[1] J. S. Brewer, Letters and Papers, For. and Dom., Hen. VIII Vol. 1 (1920), 1836.17
[2] W. Harvey, Vis. of Wilts. 1565 (1897), p. 23 (Hall pedigree).
[3] C 1/499/37, Darnall v Kyme
[4] J.S. Brewer, Letters and Papers, For. and Dom. Hen. VIII Vol. 1 (1920), 1415.24.
[5] E 163/9/33, Thomas Darnall to Edith Darnall no. 2, Letter from Tournai dated 20 April 1515.

-------------------------------------

Edith Darnall was d/o Edmund Chatterton by his wife Edith Hall.[6], [7] Married (1st) John Kyme Esq. of Friskney, Lincs.,[8] and (2nd) Thomas Darnall, clerk of the Pipe of the Exchequer and engrosser of the Great Roll, of London.[9] Buried at St. Albans, Wood Street, London.

[6] W. Harvey, Vis. of Wilts. 1565 (1897), p. 23 (Hall pedigree).
[7] E 163/9/33, William Hall of Bradford to John Darnall, about their aunt [Edith] Darnall
[8] C 1/499/37 Darnall v Kyme
[9] PROB 11/18/216 (Thomas Darnall)

[Vance Mead]

Here's a Common Pleas case involving Cecily, Viscountess Wells and Thomas Kyme as executors, together with "Reginald, knight" in Hilary term 1502.


http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H7/CP40no959/aCP40no959fronts/IMG_0588.htm

[Vance Mead]

Here's another one, with Reginald Bray and Cecily as executors of Viscount Welles. It looks like she married Thomas Kyme between 1500 and 1502.

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H7/CP40no951/bCP40no951dorses/IMG_0075.htm

[ericgil...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, August 4, 2013 1:29:23 PM UTC+12, Douglas Richardson wrote:

>
> Among other things, Complete Peerage overlooked Cecily Plantagenet's first marriage to Ralph Scrope, Esq. (later Knt.), of Upsall, Yorkshire (later 9th Lord Scrope of Masham or Upsall), which marriage was dissolved in 1486. For evidence of this marriage, see my article in Foundations 1(3) (2004): 175-177.
>

A detailed article on this subject can be found by Pauline Routh
Pauline Sheppard Routh, The Ricardian, vol IX no 121 (June 1993), 410-416.
Eric

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Vance ~

Thank you for your posts regarding the marriage of Cecily Plantagenet and Thomas Kyme, Esq. Much appreciated.

As you indicated, the 1502 Common Pleas lawsuit involves Reginald Bray, Knt., Cecily, Viscountess Welles, and her husband, Thomas Kyme. These parties involved in an action William Bele, of Lincoln, Lincolnshire, merchant. But I'm unable to tell who was suing who, as the word "versus" is not included in the record. Can you tell?

Elsewhere, I find that in the period, 1504-7, William Beele, of Lincoln, merchant sued Cecily, executrix and late the wife of John, Viscount Welles, in Chancery regarding an action of debt on a bill for delivery of wine to the said viscount. Reference: National Archives, C 1/123/33 (available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).

I assume the Chancery lawsuit was related to the earlier action in Common Pleas. Would that be a correct assumption?

[Vance Mead]

No, there's no versus in this, but there's a tam quam. A date given for Reginald, knight, exeutor of Thomas Kyme, and Vicountess Wellys, co-executrix, as well as for William Bele. 15th day of Easter term. Bele is the defendant.

[Vance Mead]

On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 8:00:08 PM UTC+3, Vance Mead wrote:
> No, there's no versus in this, but there's a tam quam. A date given for Reginald, knight, exeutor of Thomas Kyme, and Vicountess Wellys, co-executrix, as well as for William Bele. 15th day of Easter term. Bele is the defendant.

Ok, I got that wrong. It should read: Reginald, knight, executor of Viscount Welles, together with Thomas Kyme and Cecily Viscountess Welles as co-executrix.

[Richard Carruthers via]

I recall reading the biography for which the following is the link,
some years ago:

Oxford Biography Index entry
Joseph Kem
Kem, Joseph [Teddy] (bap. 1700, d. 1780), miser and farmer-weaver

Oxford Biography Index Number 101056700 [what is this?]
http://www.oxforddnb.com/index/101056700/Joseph-Kem Primary
authority: Oxford DNB

Full text available
Oxford Dictionary of National Biography
Alan F. Cook, 'Kem, Joseph (bap. 1700, d. 1780)', first published
2004, 581 words

http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/ref:odnb/56700

IIRC, the account mentioned that the subject had a genealogy tracing
himself back to the Blood Royal of England. Perhaps there is a lead
somewhere in this as I see that KYME is also rendered with forms using
E in place of Y.

BTW, I have no idea whether the pedigree still exists. Presumably the
article's author might know.

Best,

Richard

[Peter Howarth]

The article Alan F. Cook, 'Kem, Joseph (bap. 1700, d. 1780)', first published 2004 in ODNB, mentions that he was the great-great-grandson of Samuel Keme, the puritan divine and spy. (The article on Samuel says he was the son of a cooper.) The bibliography includes A. F. Cook, 'Kem dynasty: the Hanoverian remnants in the Hinckley-Nuneaton area', Hinckley Historian, 32 (1993), 3-8. There is no other reference to his ancestry.

Kem was a weaver-cum-farmer who was a recluse, spent little in the way of money, yet voted in 1774 as a 'forty-shilling freeholder'. After he died intestate and without descendants, stories spread about gold hidden on his property, although nothing was ever found. His main claim to fame is that his story was developed by George Eliot into the novel 'Silas Marner'.

Peter Howarth

[Richard Carruthers via]

Here is some old material I gathered early last year from Notes and
Queries about the marriage and descendants of the Lady Cecily and his
last husband, Thomas Kyme, Esq.

Richard

KYME in Notes and Queries, vol. IV, number 93, August 9, 1851, p. 103

Family of Kyme (Vol. iv., p. 23.). [which is the date of a query for
which this is the answer]

--The match of Kyme with Cicely, second daughter of Edward the Fourth,
and widow of John, Lord Welles, is [111] mentioned by Anderson, Yorke,
Brooke, and Vincent; but these writers agree that she had no issue by
this marriage.
Bold is probably aware that there are a few descents of the family of
Kyme of Stickford, coming down to the latter end of the sixteenth
century, to be found in a "Visitation of Lincolnshire," Harl. MS. No.
1550., fo. 60. b.
The following notice of some supposed descendants of the ancient
family of Kyme, is given in Thompson's History of Boston, 4to. Lond.
1820, pp. 173. to 176.:
"Richmond Rochford, or Kyme Tower.

"At what time this estate passed from the Kyme family has not been
ascertained: it fell into the hands of the crown by sequestration, in
consequence of some political transgression of its owner, and is now
the property of the Dean and Chapter of Westminster. The descendants
of the ancient owners, however, continued to occupy the estate as
tenants, until 1816.[6]

"The tower is situated about two miles east of Boston.... An old house
adjoining the Tower was taken down a few years since: in this house
were several old portraits, said to be of the Kyme family: there were
also three coats of arms, with different bearings, but with this same
motto: 'In cruce nostra salus.'"

[6] Adlard Kyme was tenant 1709.
If Bold will communicate his address to the editor of "Notes and
Queries," I will with much pleasure forward to him some further
information respecting the descendants of the Kymes of Kyme Tower.
Llewellyn.

KEME in Notes and Queries, 5th series, no. VIII, 29 Dec. 1877, p. 509,
col. 2, et seq.

PRINCESS CECILY, DAUGHTER OF EDWARD IV. (5th S. viii. 348.)

This cannot be considered a reply, in the strict acceptation of the
word, to the query regarding the later descendants of the second
obscure marriage of a princess of the royal house of Plantagenet, but
it gives a fuller account of her career and marriages than the
inquirer, C. H., states. Cecilia, third daughter of King Edward IV.
and Elizabeth Woodville --his queen "of low degree" --was born towards
the end of the year 1469 or early in 1470, but no chronicler records
the date of her birth; and on Oct. 26, 1474, when her father speaks of
her as being " four years of age," she was affianced to James, Prince
of Scotland, then a child of nineteen months (having been born on
March 17, 1473), as appears from the notarial attestation of his
proxy, David, fifth Earl of Crawford, and John, fifth Lord Scrope of
Bolton, her proxy, on that day, at Edinburgh; which treaty was
ratified by King James III. on Nov. 3, and immediately afterwards by
King Edward IV. at Westminster (Rymer's Foedera, xi. 814, 815, 821,
824, 833). She now was designated "Princess of Scots," and in 1481,
when eleven years of age, the Scotish king pressed for the conclusion
of her marriage with his young son and heir, sending an embassy to
England for that purpose.
But all this projected alliance ended with the death of her royal
father in April, 1483, or rather previously, as on June 12, 1482, her
hand was transferred to Prince Alexander Stewart, Duke of Albany,
brother of King James III., the marriage to take place when he can
"make himself clear from all other women, according to the laws of the
[p. 510]
Christian Church" (Rymer's Foedera, xii. 156, 160, 165, 167, 173).
This was certainly a necessary proviso, as the duke, then in open
rebellion to his brother and sovereign, and arrogating the title of
Alex. IV., King of Scots, was then married (for the second time) to
Anne, Dame de la Tour d'Auvergne, since January, 1480. Cecilia's first
marriage took place some time in 1487, with Sir John Welles, eighth
Baron and first Viscount Welles, by whom she had two daughters,
Elizabeth and Anne, of whom the former died in her father's lifetime,
and the second shortly after his death. Viscount Welles died Feb. 9,
1498, aged about fifty-two years, when the title became extinct; and
his widow, according to the only two autographs known to be in
existence, signed herself "Cecyl Wellas." Her second marriage, in
1503, was with a person of such obscure birth, that research has been
hitherto baffled in every attempt to obtain authentic information in
reference to him -- a circumstance which leaves this union without a
parallel in the annals of English royalty. "One Kyme, of
Lincolnshire," is the usual term by which he was designated, and John
is given as his Christian name in most histories; but from an entry in
the Parliamentary Rolls (vol. vi. p. 543) it is certain that it was
Thomas, and the name is variously spelt Kyme, Kymbe, Kime, Keme, or
Kene. He was from the Isle of Wight; but nothing whatever is known of
his origin or the time of his death, which must have been subsequently
to that of his wife, his entire history being involved in impenetrable
obscurity. The princess was in Herefordshire in December, 1506 (Boke
of Payments, 21 & 22 Hen. VII., vol. A., 6-18, Chapter House
Documents, Roll House), and her death occurred on Aug. 24, 1507
(Inquisitions, 23 Hen. VII., No. 96, Rolls Chapel, and Patent Roll, 24
Hen. VII., pt. i. in. 3), her remains being interred in the Cistercian
Abbey of Quarrer, or Arreton, Isle of Wight, which monastery was
demolished at the dissolution of the religious houses in the reign of
her nephew, King Henry VIII., and no trace of her monument now
remains.* The following notices of the two children
-----------------------------------
[footnote]
* This abbey was built, in 1132, by Baldwin de Redvers, afterwards
Earl of Devon (1137-1155), and occupied by Cistercian monks (Gervas
first abbot), being dedicated to the B. V. M. Its yearly revenues at
the dissolution were 134l. 3s. lld. (Dugdale). 184l. 1s. 10d. (Speed),
and it was granted to John and George Mills, 30 Henry VIII , A.D.
1545-46. Its later abbots were Richard Totenham, who succeeded Thomas
London in 1508, and William, in 1521 (Tanner's Notitia Monastica, fol.
ed., 1744, p. 161, and Willis's supplementary list of "Principals of
Religious Houses " at end of that work; Dugdale's Monasticon
Anglicanum, vol. i. pp. 760-63, and also Stevens's translation of it,
vol. i. p. 91). It was originally dedicated in honour of God and St.
Aboria of Quarrer, the latter being a female saint whose name I cannot
find in any known martyrology or hagiography, and which therefore
demands a query.
-------------------------------------
[p. 510, col. 2]
she had by Thomas Kyme, a son and daughter, and their descendants, are
compiled from two pedigrees given in Mrs. Green's life of Cecilia
(Princesses of England, vol. iii. pp. 404-436), one copied from
Harleian MSS. (1139, fol. 37), and the other in the College of Arms,
furnished by Garter.

Thomas Kyme (also styled, but erroneously, "Sir John Kene, Knt., of
the Isle of Wight," or "Johannes Kerne, de Insula Vectis miles "),
married to Cicilie, daughter of Edward IV., King of England, and
relict of John, Lord Viscount Welles, left issue:--

1. Richard Keme, of the Isle of Wight, who married Agnes , by whom one
daughter: 1. Agnes Keme, wife of Francis Baldwyn, only son of John
Baldwyn, of Southampton, and Agnes Vane his wife (daughter of Thomas
Vane, Alderman of Southampton), by whom she had also one daughter: 1.
Frances Baldwyn, who married Sir Oliver Leader, or Leder, but died
issueless in the year 1558, and ended this branch of a royal descent.
A proof of the correctness of this pedigree is found in the Chancery
Records (Bills and Answers, temp. 2 Eliz., B. B. 24, No. 27), where
John, son of Thomas Baldwyn, claims, as cousin and heir-at-law, the
advowson of a church left by Sir Oliver Leader to his wife Lady
Frances, who died without issue. The pedigree names this John Baldwyn
as living in 1602, and as the son of Thomas, half-brother of Francis,
Lady Leder's father, and consequently her cousin; which shows that Sir
Oliver Leder predeceased his wife, and also that John Baldwyn of
Southampton had two wives, Agnes Vane being apparently his first.

2. Marjery Kyme, wife of John Witherby, or De Wytherby, by whom she
had one daughter: 1. Cecilia (or Elizabeth) Witherby, married John
Brooke, and left also one daughter: 1. Agnes Brooke, who was twice
married, first to John Duffield, and secondly to Robert Peeters, by
whom she had no issue ; by her first husband she left one daughter: 1.
Agnes Duffield, who was also twice married, first to Robert Turnour,
and secondly to Robert Witherington; this lady being, as stated by C.
H., the great-great-granddaughter of the Princess Cecilia.

The Harleian pedigree, which carries down the descent two steps
further than that in the Heralds' College, does not recur in Cooke's
(Clarencieux) Visitation of Hampshire, 1576, but was added by Smyth
(Rouge Dragon) in his augmented copy of that Visitation, made in 1602.
It is omitted from the Visitation by Philpot (Somerset Herald) in
1622, and also from the later visitations of that county, probably
because no male heirs of that branch of the family of Keme, or Kymbe,
then remained. These notes are, almost throughout, taken from Mrs.
Green's work above referred to, and pretend to no originality; the
inquiry is,
[p. 511, col. 1]
however, an interesting and curious one, and deserving of further
investigation, as illustrating the obscure and neglected descendants
of a royal princess of England.
A. S. A.
Richmond.

[Richard Carruthers via]

Further to the subject of Joseph Kem a.k.a. Teddy Kem, the miser:

Nuneaton & North Warwickshire Family History Society Journal (July 2000), p. 7
"However, Alfred touches upon the legend of Teddy Kem and this
character, who I believe to be the original of George Eliot's Silas
Marner, fascinates both myself and my good friend and drinking
partner, Alan Cook. As readers of this journal will have come to know
over the years, Alan is the world authority on the family of English
Kems, which he has traced from the 11th century and the Barons de
Kyme." [of course, these eventually led to the de Tailboys]

In light of this, I wonder if an earlier version of the ODNB article
by the same man (i.e. Alan F. Cook) might not be the source of my
notion that Teddy Kem's ancestry included the Blood Royal of England?
I have found an old email address for him, but so far he has not
responded, if, indeed, he ever got my enquiry.

Richard