Parentage of [Saint] William, Archbishop of York (died 1154)
Douglas Richardson
Regarding the claims that [Saint] William, Archbishop of York (died
1154), was the son of Sir Herbert the Chamberlain (also styled Herbert
of Winchester), by his wife, Emme of Blois, I've copied further below
the comments of the historian R.L. Poole which relate to this matter.
Mr. Poole is correct in stating that Archbishop William was the son of
Sir Herbert the Chamberlain. We can be certain of this as Archbishop
William's brother, Herbert Fitz Herbert (husband of Sibyl Corbet),
confirmed the gift of his brother, William, of the church of
Weaverthorpe, Yorkshire to Nostell Priory sometime before 1127
[Reference: C. Warren Hollister "The Origins of the English
Treasury" in English Historical Review, 93 (1978): 262-275]. Poole
is wrong, however, to assign Herbert the Chamberlain as a descendant of
the Counts of Maine. Even if true, it would not explain Archbishop
William's apparent kinship to King Roger of Sicily (died 1154), whose
paternal ancestry is Norman.
For King Roger's ancestry, see the following weblink:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=jweber&id=I15854
Poole notes that Archbishop William is identified in one source as the
son of an "Earl Herbert" by Emme, sister of King Stephen. However, the
Archbishop's father was hardly an Earl, and his wife's name is unknown.
My guess would be that Archbishop William is descended like King Roger
from Richard II, Duke of Normandy. This would make Archbishop William
distantly related to King Stephen of England and also explain William's
elevation as Archbishop by Stephen.
Mr. Poole's comments:
"The ancestry of Archbishop William has not been fully established.
We have two statements by John of Hexham, an honest and well-informed
chronicler, who wrote some twenty years after the archbishop's
death... John's information was that William was the son of Herbert
of Winchester, treasurer to King Henry II. In another place he tells
us that when the archbishop was deprived of his see he resorted to the
court of his kinsman Roger, king of Sicily, where he dwelt for a long
time. The York statement, if we admit a simple emendation, furnishes
the link required to connect Herbert with the king of Sicily. The
statement is that William was 'filius viri secundum caducos huius
mundi honores potentissimi, strenuissimi comitis Herberti, ex Emma
sorore praedicti regis [Stephani].' These words appear in three York
texts. Now, as it is known that William was a son of Herbert the
Chamberlain, it is plain that the statement as it stands in incorrect.
The error, I can hardly doubt, has arisen from the scribe accidentally
confusing in one the two clauses which mentioned 'cam' Herberti'
and 'com' Herberti.' and omitting one of them. I therefore read
the words as follows: 'filius Herberti camerarii, filii viri, &c.,
comitis Herberti'. Chronology alone requires the insertion of a
generation, and its insertion alone explains John of Hexham's
allusion to King Roger of Sicily. Herbert the 'strenuissimus
comes' can only be Herbert II, count of Maine. He had succeeded to
this dignity on the death of his father Hugh II in 1051, but never
obtained more than transient possession of the land. [Count] Herbert
[II] I presume to have left an illegitimate son whose very existence is
ignored in our authorities. He was given his father's name, which
was repeated among his descendants for a number of generations. He was
probably an infant when he was left an orphan, and was, as I
conjecture, taken in charge by Duke William who obtained possession of
Maine. He was brought to England and provided with a modest estate
there. He was also on the fringe of relationship with the house of
Blois; for, according to Thomas Stubbs, he married Emma, an
illegitimate daughter of Count Stephen and a half-sister of the future
King Stephen. Herbert the chamberlain's second son William ... was
brought up, says John of Hexham, like a nobleman, in a life of pleasure
and wealth, in deliciis et divitiis, and he was early established in
the treasureship of York, the richest office in the cathedral."
[Reference: R. L. Poole, "The Appointment and Deprivation of St.
William, Archbishop of York," in English Historical Review, 45
(1930): 273-281]. END OF POOLE'S COMMENTS.
For an online biography of [Saint] William, Archbishop of York,
newsgroup members may wish to consult the following weblink:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15628c.htm
Lastly, and more importantly, there appears to be a brand new biography
of Archbishop William in print called St. William of York, by Dr.
Christopher Norton, published 2006. See the following weblink for
price and ordering details:
http://www.boydell.co.uk/03153174.HTM
I haven't yet seen Dr. Norton's book. However, it appears from the
synopsis of the book given at the Boydell Press website that Dr. Norton
believes that Archbishop William was the "cousin" rather than nephew of
King Stephen. If anyone has access to Dr. Norton's book, I'd be most
grateful if they would post the pertinent information from the book
concerning Archbishop William's parentage and ancestry. Also, does
anyone know what the new DNB says about Archbishop William's parentage?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
mj...@btinternet.com
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
> Also, does
> anyone know what the new DNB says about Archbishop William's parentage?
Dear Douglas,
Yes, it calls him the son of Herbert of Winchester, the chamberlain
mutilated in 1118. It rebuts the "Emma of Blois and Count Herbert"
story, and refers to Round's paper in which it is proposed that Herbert
of Winchester married the daughter of Hunger Fitz Odin of Broad
Windsor, Dorset.
I have to say that I am not convinced that the right Herbert the
Chamberlain has been identified as William's father, however. Alex
posted last year with details based on Clay's Early Yorkshire Charters
and Keats-Rohan's DP/DD, stating that the Archbishop was son of Herbert
the Chamberlain, son of Aubrey, and I am not prepared to dismiss this
lightly. Se the threads under Herbert Fitz Herbert.
I will try to take at look at Alex's references and determine their
sources before commenting further.
Regards, Michael
PS the reference to "Sir Herbert the Chamberlain" looks very silly!
Leo van de Pas
Douglas Richardson did not mention Weis's Ancestral Roots. In the 7th
edition page 238, Emma de Blois, a half-sister of King Stephen de Blois,
married Herbert of Winchester (also styled Herbert the Chamberlain), she was
mother of Herbert FitzHerbert who married Sibyl (or Adela or Lucia) Corbet,
mistress of Henry I.
Douglas Richardson accepts that Saint William is a brother of Herbert
FitzHerbert, even the site he refers to starts with saying that
"traditionally" Saint William is regarded to be a nephew of Stephen de
Blois.
Poole seems to be guessing about a Count of Maine named Herbert, he implies
Herbert II.
Herbert II's mother, Berthe de Blois, is a great-aunt of Emme de Blois, the
mother of Saint William, and so there is a connection. There is another one
as well, Emma's father Stephen is son of Gardende de Maine and she is an
aunt of Herbert II.
I am also puzzled by the supposed link with Roger II of Sicily. I cannot see
a link between Roger II with Herbert II of Maine, nor with Stephen de Blois
and his half-sister.
What is puzzling is that in the series "Who's Who in British History", in
the volume Early Medieval England 1066-1272 no mention seems to be made of
Saint William Archbishop of York.
However, I also have a penguin "A Dictionary of Saints" by Donald Attwater:
William of York,bishop. D. at York, 1154; cd 1226; f.d. 8 June. The story of
William FitzHerbert as it has come down to us is almost wholly concerned
with the bitter dispute that followed his election to the archbishopric of
York in 1140............Then there is a mention of King Stephen de Blois
"(who was probably his uncle)". He was deposed but then later re-instated,
rumoured to have been poisoned shortly after his reinstatement. He was
venerated as St. William of Rochester, but was never canonised.
It defintely is an interesting aspect of history and genealogy.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1161448831.0...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> Lastly, and more importantly, there appears to be a brand new biography
> of Archbishop William in print called St. William of York, by Dr.
> Christopher Norton, published 2006. See the following weblink for
> price and ordering details:
>
> http://www.boydell.co.uk/03153174.HTM
>
> I haven't yet seen Dr. Norton's book. However, it appears from the
> synopsis of the book given at the Boydell Press website that Dr. Norton
> believes that Archbishop William was the "cousin" rather than nephew of
> King Stephen. If anyone has access to Dr. Norton's book, I'd be most
> grateful if they would post the pertinent information from the book
> concerning Archbishop William's parentage and ancestry. Also, does
> anyone know what the new DNB says about Archbishop William's parentage?
Norton follows Poole's conjecture that Herbert the Chamberlain was probably
an illegitimate son of Herbert II, count of Maine. He suggests that St
William's mother Emma was an illegitimate half-sister of King Stephen's
father, Count Stephen Henry of Blois, i.e. a daughter of Count Thibaud III.
(This negates the possibility, first put forward by Geoffrey White, that St
William's connection to King Roger II of Sicily came through a second wife
of Thibaud III named Gandrea, who may have been related to Roger's mother.)
Norton also suggests that John of Hexham was "stretching a point, but not
perhaps quite to the point of breaking" in his description of St William as
a kinsman of King Roger. Norton traces a few lines of fairly loose affinity,
but no blood link. White had considered that John might have been simply
mistaken about this, or even that "cognatus" could have meant a countyman,
indicating that both William and Roger were of Norman family background.
It seems possible to me that a real blood relationship came through Roger's
paternal grandmother Fressendis, whose family origins are not known (apart
from an almost certainly fictitious assertion that she was a daughter of
Duke Richard II of Normandy). I don't believe there is any solid argument
for a connection to the counts of Maine, and William's father Herbert may
have been a fairly humble Norman, connected by marriage to Roger II's
grandfather Tancred of Hauteville.
A connection of Emma to the counts of Blois seems more plausible to me,
accounting for St William's promotion as archbishop of York. Count Stephen
Henry was old enough to be her father well before his marriage to William
the Conqueror's daughter when he was perhaps aged over 30, and his father
had plenty of time to take an Italian wife (or one with Italian relatives)
named Gandrea between his repudiation of Gersende of Main in the late 1140s
and his marriage to Adela of Valois some time before 1061. I can't recall
any evidence subsequently presented that rules out the possibility raised by
White in 1932, but NB I haven't looked into this carefully.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart wrote:
<snip>
> A connection of Emma to the counts of Blois seems more plausible to me,
> accounting for St William's promotion as archbishop of York. Count Stephen
> Henry was old enough to be her father well before his marriage to William
> the Conqueror's daughter when he was perhaps aged over 30, and his father
> had plenty of time to take an Italian wife (or one with Italian relatives)
> named Gandrea between his repudiation of Gersende of Main in the late 1140s
> and his marriage to Adela of Valois some time before 1061.
Of course this should read "between his repudiation of Gersende of Main
in the late 1040s and his marriage to Adela of Valois some time before
1061".
By the way, I note from Leo's post that according to the Penguin
Dictionary of Saints William was never canonised. I thought he enjoyed
the very rare distinction of having been canonised twice - I will check
this.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
news:1161583169....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
The Penguin Dictionary of Saints correctly reports that William fitz Herbert
was canonised in 1226, feast day 8 June - the confusion about this arises
from another William, covered in the last paragraph of the same article, a
pilgrim from Perth who was murdered at Rochester in 1201 and locally
venerated as a saint but never canonised.
Christopher Norton in the new biography cited earlier in this thread writes
(pp 192-193), "William of York...was canonised in 1226 [on 18 March by Pope
Honorius III]. But it would be more exact to say that he was canonised
_twice_, according to two different procedures: firstly following the
miracles of 1177, according to the ancient tradition of canonisation by the
local church, and secondly in 1226, in accordance with the new doctrine of
exclusively papal canonisation".
Peter Stewart
John P. Ravilious
Dear Peter, Alex, Doug, Leo, Michael, et al.,
This thread opens up again the issue of the alleged relationship
between the FitzHerberts of Blaen Llyfni, co. Brecknock [later Lords
FitzReynold] and William fitz Herbert, Archbishop of York. Alex
Findlater posted re: this relationship not too long ago [1]. I raise
this particular issue at this time, as I've noted additional evidence
which points to a connection between William the Archbishop and the
FitzHerberts of Blaen Llyfni.
The record in Kirkby's Inquest for the Wapentake of Harthill,
East Riding of Yorkshire indicates the following for Londesbrough
in 1285-6:
' Lone(s)burgh et Tolthorp. Item Reginaldus filius Petri tenet
in Lonebeurg et in Tolthorp de [eodem] Archiepiscopo ix car.
terrae; unde Thomas de Lutton tenet iij car. terrae in
Tolthorp. ' [2]
This Reginald fitz Peter was the son of Piers fitz Herbert of
Blaen Llyfni; his IPM (writ for IPM dated 5 May 1286) records among
his Yorkshire holdings,
' Lounesburg'
The said Reginald held at Louesburg' of the Archbishop of
York in chief by knight's service a capital manor (capitale
maner'), worth by the year with herbage and fruits of the
garden, 16s. 6d. There are in demesne 24 bovates.....
.....
There are 62 carucates 7 bovates of land which Reginald
held of the Archbishop of York in chief by knights' service
which divers tenants held of him (Reginald) by the same
service, yielding scutage when it shall fall.
Sum total of Lounesburg', L .. 3s. ... ' [3]
The IPM goes on to include as well 24 bovates held at Wyverthorpe
of the Archbishop of York. The history of tenure of Londesbrough,
Wiverthorpe and Tolthorp is well established, as is apparently the
family of Herbert the Chamberlain.
1. Grant, 1109x1119 by Thomas, Archbishop of York to 'Lord
Herbert the Chamberlain, and his son in fee Londesbrough, with
Tolthorp, Wiverthorpe, ....' ["Thomas Dei gratia Eboracensis
archiepiscopus,.... Notum vobis facio, quod ego dedi domino
Herberto Camerario, et filio ejus, in feodum Laundesbrough,
cum Tolethorpe, Wiverthorpe, ...."] [4]
2. Confirmation, 1135x1143 by King Stephen to 'William the
treasurer of York, my chaplain.... Know that I have grant to
the same William those churches held in fee by Herbert his
brother, .... that is, the church of Wiverthorpe, the church
of Laundesbrough, and teh church of 'Cleram', with chapels
and appurtenances; and the church of Staunton .... And will
and precept that these be held well, peacefully and honorably
just as by his father and his brother Herbert to whom these
were given and granted , and just as the charter of King
Henry attests. ' ["Stephanus rex Angliae ... Sciatis me
concessisse eidem Willielmo [thesaurarius Eborum, capellanus
meus] ecclesias quas tenet de feodo Herberti fratris sui,...
scilicet ecclesiam de Wiverthorpe, ecclesiam de Laundesbrough
et ecclesiam de Clera[m], cum capellis et pertinentibus; et
eccelsiam de Staunton cum terris et decimis omnibus et rebus
eis pertinentibus. Et volo et praecipio, quod bene et in
pace, et honorifice tenent, sicut pater ejus et frater ejus
Herbertus eas ei dederunt et concesserunt, et sicut carta
regis Henr. testatur. Testibus, G. archiepisc. Eborum; D.
episcopo Elm. et Johanne episc. Sag. et Roberto de Veer; et
Willielmo Martell, apud Eborum. ' [5]
3. Confirmation, 1154x1181 by Stephen, son of Herbert the
Chamberlain, of the grant by William de Scures to St. Peter's
of York of the church of Blessed Mary of Thornton and the
advowson of the church of Acklam. [6]
4. Grant, 1264x1269 by Reginald fitz Peter (d. 1285) to St.
Peter's of York of the advowson of Wiverthorpe [final concord
between Reginald fitz Peter, querent and William, dean of St.
Peter's, in the court of King Henry III at Westminster,
53 Hen. III]. [7]
I suggest the actual descent (assuming the identification of the
relationship to King Stephen is correct) actually appears as given in
the following chart. Dates indicated in chevrons < > are dates of
documented tenure of Londesbrough. Additional documentation, comment
and criticism is welcome, as always.
Cheers,
John *
NN ~ Stephen = Adela of Normandy
: Count of Blois I m. 1080
: b. ca. 1047 I
....: slain at Ramleh I
: 18 May 1102 I
: _______________I___________________
: I I I I
Emma William Thibaut IV Stephen Henry
m. Herbert of Sully of Blois King of Bp of
'camerarius' I (II of England Winchester
<ca 1109x1119> V Champagne) 1135-1154 1129-1171
I
_______I______________________________________
I I I
Herbert William Stephen
fitz Herbert treasurer of York fitz Herbert
<ca 1135-1143> Archbishop of York d. aft 1154
d. bef 1143 1143-1147, 1154
= Sibyl Corbet
I
I
Herbert fitz Herbert = Lucy of Hereford
of Blaen Llyfni I (had Blaen Llyfni as
d. bef 18 Jul 1204 I her purparty)
____________I
I
I
Piers fitz Herbert = 1) Alice 'filia = 2) Isabel de
of Blaen Llyfni I Rogeri' Ferrieres
d. aft 19 May I m. 28 Nov 1203
1235 _______I
I
I
Reynold fitz Piers = 1) Alice = 2) Joan de
of Blaen Llyfni, co. I m. Sept I Vivonia
Brecknock, d. 1285 I 1249 I
<1264x1269, IPM 1286> I I
_______________________________I _____I______________
I I I I I
Alice = Sir John de Sir John Piers Reginald Eleanor
I St. John 1st Lord m. John de
I d. bef 30 FitzReynold Mohun
I Sept 1302 dsp bef 10 (2ndly William
I Feb 1309/10 Martin)
V I
V
NOTES
[1] Alex Maxwell Findlater, <Herbert FitzHerbert and Herbert
FitzHerbert both d ca 1155>, SGM, 7 Feb 2005.
[2] Kirkby's Inquest, p. 79.
[3] William Brown, ed., Yorkshire Inquisitions (Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series Voll XXIII, 1898), II:48.
An extract only is given.
[4] Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum VI(3):1196, Num. CIX.
[5] Dugdale, ibid., Num. CX.
[6] Dugdale, ibid., Num. CXI.
[7] Dugdale, ibid., Nums. CXII, CXIII.
* John P. Ravilious
Alex Maxwell Findlater
descendants of Albericus de Tourp in tatters. Of the charters etc
which John has quoted No 1 relating to Londesbrough is listed in EYC
under the Archbishop's fee. Given the later evidence which John has
produced, I think there can be little doubt that these lands were in
the hands of the descendants of Herbert the Chamberlain of Henry I.
Farrar notes (p 36 after the text of the charter), "the feoffee was
Herbert son of Aubry, who attested this charter, and is named as
feoffee of the archbishop of 4 carucates in Lissington co. Linc., which
he held at the survey. As Herbert son of Albri he held 7 carucates in
Lissington with the members at the time of the Lindsey survey."
He clearly equates the Herbert of Lissington, named as FitzAlbri, with
Herbert of Londesbrough, the Chamberlain. I think this may be the root
cause of the problem. It also seems to be a problem that Herbert
FitzHerbert, Chamberlain to King David of Scots had a son Stephen as
did his contemporary Herbert FitzHerbert, son of the Chamberlain of
Henry I of England. Stephen was obviously a popular name at the time
among the followers of King Stephen, so this is not so surprising as
one might think.
On the other hand the confirmation of Stephen FitzHerbert of the grant
of William de Escuris is shewn by Farrar to relate to the
Chamberlain's fee. I think that it is possible that this Stephen is
the son of Herbert FitzHerbert son of Albericus, who was Chamberlain to
the King of Scots. This Herbert FitzHerbert had two sons at least,
known from his grant of the church of Kinniel to Holyrood Abbey,
Stephen and William. (Regesta Regum Scotorum I, Acts of Malcolm IV,
1153-1165, no 196, p 233). On p 167, sub the Chamberlain's Fee,
farrar says' "Stephen Fitz-Herbert . . . . was brother of the half
blood to Herbert and William, the treasurer of York, afterwards
archbishop. Stephen's mother was Milisent, daughter and heir of Adam
(?) and niece of William Turniant. She inherited the entire
inheritance of William Turniant, of Richard his brother, and of Osbert
the sheriff of Lincoln and York, their father. (Abbrev Placit (Rec Com)
65b)" (I have not checked the reference, it is given here as a quote
from Farrar.)
This touches on which Herbert FitzHerbert was in fact the brother of
Archbishop William, whose death I have recorded as 8th June 1154. I am
not sure where this date came from, but Who's Who in Early Mediaeval
England says, "William died in 1154, it was rumoured from a chalice
poisoned by the archdeacon." The attribution of Emma as mother was
as mother of the Archbishop, not of Herbert his brother, so Herbert his
brother would get the mother as well, not the other way around.
I had previously thought that the two Herbert FitzHerberts had quite
different ancestry, but if they are half-brothers this may explain
quite a lot. Does anyone have access to the Abbrev. Placit.?