Wentworth ancestry: William de Wynteworth Wodehouses
John P. Ravilious
Monday, 23 January, 2006
Hello All,
In the ongoing quest to resolve the early ancestry of the
Wentworth
family(families), Cris Nash had noted previously part of the version
provided in Burke's Peerage [1]. While not necessarily searching for
evidence to support pedigrees produced in Burke's, I noted the
following
grant provided by Richard Holmes, dated 7 Edw II [1313/14]:
' Jn the writeings of Thomas Wentworth, Baronet, ex Gasc.
lib. F. fo. 20.
G [vol.127] 113
J, William sonne of William de Wynteworth wodehouses, haue
giuen & c. to John my brother & Jone daughter of Richard le
Tyars & their heires, & c., the yearly rent of 20s out of my
Lands and tenem'ts, which John my vnkle & Agnes his wife doe
hold for terme of life of the demise of William de Wentworth
wadhouses, my father, in Thorp nere Wentbrig, & in Upton, to
haue to the foresaid John & Jone & their heires. And if it
happen the said John my vnkle to die before Agnes his wife
J will that the foresaid John & Jone of the foresaid
tenements 40s in the life of Agnes, with a windmill, & after
the decease of John & Agnes all the Lands and Tenem'ts in
Thorp aforesaid & Upton may remaine to John my brother &
Jone daughter of Richard le Tyes, together with the windmill.
But if the said John my brother die without heire of the
foresaid Jone after their decease all the p'mises to returne
to me & my heires.
Witnesse, John de Trauers, then Steward of Pontefract,
Edmund le Boteler, Tho. Seynpaul, John Dangerous, Roger
le Folifate. Dat. 7 Ed. 2 [1313-4]. '
This text validates several (but not all) details as given in the
Burke's pedigree provided by Cris. Interestingly, as it also dates
the
marriage of John (de) Wentworth and Jane/Joan le Tyes to 1314 or
before, this also provides additional support to the suggestion that
John Wentworth (d. 1425, husband of Agnes Dronsfeld) was their
grandson, not son.
Should anyone have further documentation, or points involving
subsequent findings concerning the Wentworth ancestry, that would be
greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Cris Nash, <RE: Wentworth, Beaumont>, SGM, 26 Nov 2003. The
text of the message is as follows:
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: c...@windsong.u-net.com (Cristopher Nash) - Find messages by this
author
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:40:55 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Wed, Nov 26 2003 6:40 am
Subject: RE: Wentworth, Beaumont
Brice --
>As I understand it (not that I have seen all of them) the pedigrees
>that show John who m. Dranfield as son of John who m. Tyas leave out
>a Bisset marriage altogether. Yet Elmsall is supposed to have come
>to the Wentworths from the Bissets.. If Elmsall can be shown to have
>been a Bisset property before the Wentworth ownership, that would
>support the marriage.
-- I agree and this is looking very helpful.
>The most plausible explanation seems to be that some pedigrees have
>omitted a generation and that Tyas was grandmother of Wentworth who
>m. Dransfield.
Ya know what? I think there may an antique hint of this kink in the
weave, dating back at least to Burke's Extinct & Otherwise Bent
Peerage (R.I.P.) which, sub 'Wentworth', 575, says
William de Wentworth and Dyonisia da. of Peter de Rotherfield
|
William, his successor, who "s[ucceeded] his father in
1295,
and m. Isabel, dau. and co-heir of William Pollington"
[etc]
John who "m. the dau. and heir of Elmsall, of Elmsall,
in Yorkshire, by whom he acquired that estate,
and dying s. p., left it to his nephew, John [evidently
bro. William's son] ... who inherited Elmsall from his
uncle, and marrying Joan, dau. of Richard le Tyas, of
Burgh-Walleys, co. York, [and who] was ancestor of the
Wentworths of Elmsall" etc.
I've no interest in giving this great cred., but it does suggest a
'dog-leg' in the line (the jog from heir to uncle) that might leave
room -- if no useful data -- for both your Bisset-kind of scheme and
for (if anyone remains interested) an extra John who m. Eliz Beaumont.
Again, I know that Paul Reed has looked into the generations
affecting e.g. Wentworth/Rotherfield/Pollington connections, but....
>Yes, John who m. Beaumont seems to be "surplus" to the Nettlstead
>line, though not to the Elmshall line. But I don't see that that
>causes any problem.
None at all! I aimed just to support your seeming to've simplified
things for us here.
Best,
Cris
[2] Richard Holmes, Wapentake of Osgoldcross, The Yorkshire
Archaeological
Journal [Vol. XIII (1895)], p. 130.
mwelc...@yahoo.com
I can add this about the marriage of Joan le Tyas and John de
Wentworth. I found a marriage contract dated 1314 for these two. As
soon as I can I will post the source. Thank You again for your hard
work.
Mike Welch
the...@aol.com
Tuesday, 31 January, 2006
Dear MichaelAnne, Mike, et al.,
I have noted two additional instances where the grant by William,
son of William de Wentworth Wodhouses, was either published or
otherwise referenced or described:
1. The manuscripts of Mrs. Wentworth of Woolley Park were
Published in 1903 by the Historical Manuscripts
Commission [1]. The version printed there, rendered in
then-current English, is shown as being dated 22 November
1313 ["7 Edward II, Thursday after the feast of St.
Edmund the King."]. This is marked as a "Copy", to which
a footnote states,
" These copies and that of the deed of Henry VIII.,
below, appear to have been made by one R. G. for
Michael Wentworth, early in the 17th century."
Immediately prior to this text, the following was also
printed:
" [1303,] 31 Edward I., October 20. - Letters patents
granting permission to William de Wynteworthe
Wodehus to enclose a part of the King's highway,
near to his mansion, provided he replaces it by
a like road, and upon payment of a fine into the
treasury. Copy. "
2. Rev. Hunter referenced both of the above in some detail in his
fine work on South Yorkshire [2], stating (concerning these
and a few others I am presently reviewing) that
" These are the documents which remain concerning those who
must be regarded as the patriarchs of the family of
Wentworth. The descendants of the two Williams I give
upon the authority, principally, of Gascoign and the
heralds, till we arrive at the period when we have the
assistance of the Inquisitions, and the monuments. "
I have not noted anything in Hunter's South Yorkshire (as yet)
that indicates that he had found additional evidence concerning the
alleged Wentworth marriages with the daughter of Sir Peter de
Rotherfield, William de Pollington or others. I will advise if in
fact such evidence is noted (although my time constraints will slow
this process).
I hope this is useful in the pursuit of whence the worthy
Wentworths went (or came from, anyway).
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Historical Manuscripts Commission, Reports on Manuscripts in
Various Collections (London: Printed for His Majesty's
Stationery Office by Mackie & Co. LD., 1903), II:367.
[2] Rev. Joseph Hunter, South Yorkshire: the History and Topography of
the Deanery of Doncaster, in the Diocese and County of York
(London: Printed for the Author, by J. B. Nichols and Son, 1831),
II:82.