St. Quintin of Hornby, Yorkshire
John Watson
On Chris Philips' excellent website, new abstracts of fines for
Yorkshire have recently been added. One fine from 1378, concerning the
manor of Patrick Brompton seems to overturn the accepted pedigree of
the family of St. Quintin of Hornby, Yorkshire, ancestors of the
Conyers of Hornby.
County: Yorkshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: Two weeks from Easter, 1 Richard [II] [2 May 1378].
Parties: John, son of Thomas de Sc'o Quyntino of Horneby, knight, and
Elizabeth, his wife, querents, and Thomas de Sc'o Quyntino of Horneby,
knight, and Margaret, his wife, deforciants.
Property: The manor of Estbrompton'.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Thomas and Margaret have granted to John and Elizabeth the
manor and have rendered it to them in the same court, to hold to John
and Elizabeth and the heirs of the body of John, of Thomas and
Margaret and the heirs of Thomas for ever, rendering yearly a rose at
the Nativity of St John the Baptist for all service, and doing to the
chief lords all other services. In default of such heirs, the manor
shall revert to Thomas and Margaret and the heirs of Thomas, quit of
the other heirs of John, to hold of the chief lords for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: John and Elizabeth have given them 100 marks of silver.
Feet of Fines: CP 25/1/277/140, number 7.
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_277_140.shtml
VCH North Riding states: Thomas de Hornby was the chief tenant here in
1316 and Robert de Hornby in 1327. Four years later mills and
tenements in Hornby were settled on Robert and his wife Christina and
their issue, with contingent remainder to Thomas St. Quintin and his
heirs. In 1332 Christina, widow of Robert, and Thomas St. Quintin were
holding jointly. At her death the manor came into the sole possession
of the family of St. Quintin, a younger branch of the St. Quintins of
Harpham. Thomas was succeeded by his nephew William, who had a son and
heir John. Anthony son of John died at the end of the 14th century,
and left a daughter and heir Margaret, whose wardship and marriage
belonged to Richard Lord Scrope. He married Margaret St. Quintin to
John Conyers, 'a servant of his own,' who became the ancestor of the
Conyers of Hornby.
'Parishes: Hornby', A History of the County of York North Riding:
Volume 1 (1914), pp. 313-320
There is no sign in the 1378 fine of William, nephew of Sir Thomas de
St. Quintin or his son John, or his grandson Anthony, all of whom do
not seem to appear in any contemporary records. Instead, the pedigree
of the St. Quintin of Hornby family would appear to be:
Sir Thomas de St. Quintin = Margaret de Hornby
I
John de St. Quintin = Elizabeth (de Swinhoe?)
I
Margaret de St. Quintin = John Conyers
Regards,
John
hsone
> Hi all,
<snip>
Sorry I am not sure I am understanding your post. Are you stating that
Sir Anthony St. Quintin of Harpham and wife Elizabeth Frank of
Grimston, given as parents of Margaret, wife of John Conyers cited in
Betham and Dugdale are fictitious because they are not in the 1378
fine?
Thanks,
HS
holl...@gmail.com
Actually I have the parents as Anthony St. Quintin and Elizabeth
Gascoigne per Flowers' Visitation of York. There seems to a primary
source that shows the St. Quintin de Hornby connection, but a
secondary source of 1914 tying the St. Quintin to Conyers. I think we
need more discussion on this matter.
Martin
John Watson
Martin,
You must be looking at a different Flower's visitation than the one I
have. Mine says that the wife of John Conyers was Margaret, daughter
and heiress of Sir Anthony St. Quintin (by Margaret, daughter and
heiress of Swynho, widow of Sir Thomas Mountford of Hackforth).
Harleian Society, Vol. 16, Visitation of Yorkshire in 1563 & 1564,
Made by Willam Flower, Esquire (1881) p. 74 note
In the same volume, the Mountforth pedigree is shows: "Margaret
doughter & on of theys of ... Sywnho" married firstly "Sir Thomas
Monford Knight" and secondly "Antonius St. Quyntne", who were the
parents of "Margaret wyf to John Conyers".
Harleian Society, Vol. 16, Visitation of Yorkshire in 1563 & 1564,
Made by Willam Flower, Esquire (1881) p. 213
I have already shown in a previous post, that Thomas Mountforth of
Hackforth, Hornby, married Elizabeth Swinhoe, not Margaret Swinhoe.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2008-10/1225258142
We must consider the possibility that other information given in the
pedigree is wrong and that Elizabeth Swinhoe married not Anthony St.
Quintin, but John St. Quintin, particularly as there does not seem to
be any contemporary record of this Anthony St. Quintin.
Regards,
John
Wjhonson
Not that this is directly related, but just to add to the mix, *that* Anthony St Quentin married Elizabeth Franke comes from
http://books.google.com/books?id=EvQfAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA434
probably other places as well
It however is NOT clear that this is the same Anthony being described as the husband of Elizabeth Gascoigne, or Elizabeth Swinnhoe.
Just to add more fuss.
Martin,
Regards,
John
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holl...@gmail.com
>
> We must consider the possibility that other information given in the
> pedigree is wrong and that Elizabeth Swinhoe married not Anthony St.
> Quintin, but John St. Quintin, particularly as there does not seem to
> be any contemporary record of this Anthony St. Quintin.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
You are probably correct. I descend from Ralph Bowes and Margrery
Conyers and have a passing interest in the Conyers.
Martin
John Watson
> Not that this is directly related, but just to add to the mix, *that* Anthony St Quentin married Elizabeth Franke comes fromhttp://books.google.com/books?id=EvQfAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA434
>
> We must consider the possibility that other information given in the
> pedigree is wrong and that Elizabeth Swinhoe married not Anthony St.
> Quintin, but John St. Quintin, particularly as there does not seem to
> be any contemporary record of this Anthony St. Quintin.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
> -------------------------------
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> the message
Hi Will,
I wondered when you would turn up. We must get our chronology right
here:
In 1391 an indenture was sealed between Richard Scrope and John
Conyers "whereby Richard has sold to John the wardship of the person
and lands of Margaret, cousin and heir to Thomas St Quentin, knight,
of Hornby, in Richmondshire, which pertains to him because of the
minority of Margaret. John has paid 200 marks to Richard for the
wardship".
Michael Prestwich, ed. Liberties and Identities in the Medieval
British Isles, Melanie Devine, The Lordship of Richmond in the Later
Middle Ages, (Boydell Press: 2008) pp. 105-6: Citing; NYCRO, MS ZBO,
Bolton Cartulary, fo. 56r.
John Conyers married his ward, Margaret St. Quintin, who in 1391 was a
minor (less than 14 years old). This fits in well with John St.
Quintin marrying Elizabeth in or around 1378 and having a daughter
born around 1378-80.
Regards,
John
Wjhonson
Sure that could have been what happened. I'm just saying that this does not preclude an Anthony from existing in another branch, with this Franke wife. I'm not convinced that the early part of this family has been truly well laid out yet. Whenever I look at the sources they seem to be a big mish-mash.
I would also point out that the Vis is 200 years after the fact, so it could be a dog's breakfast as our mutual friend likes to state.
I'm glad you found that fine, it certainly helps with who was in control of this Manor.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Watson <watso...@gmail.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Fri, Jun 3, 2011 4:52 pm
Subject: Re: St. Quintin of Hornby, Yorkshire
On Jun 4, 6:16 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> Not that this is directly related, but just to add to the mix, *that* Anthony
St Quentin married Elizabeth Franke comes fromhttp://books.google.com/books?id=EvQfAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA434
>
> probably other places as well
>
> It however is NOT clear that this is the same Anthony being described as the
husband of Elizabeth Gascoigne, or Elizabeth Swinnhoe.
>
> Just to add more fuss.
>
>
>
>
>
I wondered when you would turn up. We must get our chronology right
here:
In 1391 an indenture was sealed between Richard Scrope and John
Conyers "whereby Richard has sold to John the wardship of the person
and lands of Margaret, cousin and heir to Thomas St Quentin, knight,
of Hornby, in Richmondshire, which pertains to him because of the
minority of Margaret. John has paid 200 marks to Richard for the
wardship".
Michael Prestwich, ed. Liberties and Identities in the Medieval
British Isles, Melanie Devine, The Lordship of Richmond in the Later
Middle Ages, (Boydell Press: 2008) pp. 105-6: Citing; NYCRO, MS ZBO,
Bolton Cartulary, fo. 56r.
John Conyers married his ward, Margaret St. Quintin, who in 1391 was a
minor (less than 14 years old). This fits in well with John St.
Quintin marrying Elizabeth in or around 1378 and having a daughter
born around 1378-80.
Regards,
John
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John Watson
>
> We must consider the possibility that other information given in the
> pedigree is wrong and that Elizabeth Swinhoe married not Anthony St.
> Quintin, but John St. Quintin, particularly as there does not seem to
> be any contemporary record of this Anthony St. Quintin.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
> -------------------------------
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> the message
Will,
Actually that page shown Thomas St. Quintin, not Anthony St. Quintin
marrying Elizabeth daughter of Nicholas Gascoigne.
Regards,
John
Wjhonson
That's right. I sent this to only illustrate the Anthony to a Franke wife, not to fix other problems with this family :)
John Watson
> Sure that could have been what happened. I'm just saying that this does not preclude an Anthony from existing in another branch, with this Franke wife. I'm not convinced that the early part of this family has been truly well laid out yet. Whenever I look at the sources they seem to be a big mish-mash.
>
> I would also point out that the Vis is 200 years after the fact, so it could be a dog's breakfast as our mutual friend likes to state.
> I'm glad you found that fine, it certainly helps with who was in control of this Manor.
>
>
>
Exactly my point - treat most of these pedigrees with a pinch of salt.
Regards,
John
TJ Booth_aol
week, but am joining since it has chronological and other implications for
Conyers of Hornby - about whom there is also more to post.
One important thing to clear up, the Elizabeth Gascoigne who m. Anthony
St. Quintin was dau of Nicholas of Lasingcroft and Mary Clitheroe, widow of
Sir Richard Tempest. This is noted several places, including Glover's 1585
Visitation [Gascoigne of Lasingcroft, p. 238] where she is identified as
'Elizabeth [Gascoigne] wife of Anthony St. Quintin of Harpham, who d. 22 Hen
VI [1433/34]'.
The Gascoigne of Lasingcroft pedigree, in 'History of barwick-in-Elmet';
Thoresby Soc; Vol 17, page 134 @
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZRItAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA134, notes that Nicholas
m. Mary Clitheroe 'shortly after' 1392, which I have as 1394. Eliz Gascoigne
was thus b. aft that date. A page 136 fn adds a summary of Anthony St.
Quintin's will dated 14 Mar 1443 (by which date his wife d.). Although he
did have a dau Margaret, clearly Conyers' wife was not his heir given the
existence of several sons :
"Anthony St. Quintin, of Harpham, made his will 14 Mar., 1443. he
directed his body to be buried in the Church of St. John of Beverley of
Harpham, he made bequests to the Church at Harpham for his soul and in
memory of Elizabeth [Gascoigne] his wife, to his sons William and Anthony,
to his daughters Margaret and Joan, to his brother John, a canon, and
appointed executors Thomas, his son and heir, Thomas Arden [m. Elizabeth's
sister Margaret], of Marton, and William Ward, of Lowthropp. Probate granted
3 July, 1443. G:MSS. Ref Waldby. fol. 85."
Glover's pedigree for Conyers of Hornby [page 71/72] identifies the
father of Christopher Conyers as 'John Conyers the son of Robert = Margaret,
dau and heir of Anthony St. Quintin'. But this early part of the pedigree is
sparse, it does not recognize the knighthoods of either Christopher or his
father, and is not contemporary with the several new documents John has
cited. Glover's St. Quintin of Harpham pedigree [p. 162] notes two
generations of Anthony with unidentified wives, then a John living time of
Richard III [1483/5] - the 1443 will cited above would fit this chronology,
making him the earlier of the 2 Anthonys. Glover also noted that other
pedigrees only show 1 generation of Anthony.
Mr. Sometimes Nice helped this thread by posting a Kimber/Johnson
Baronetage link for St. Quintin of Harpham, which [falsely] shows Andrew's
brother Thomas as Eliz Gascoigne's husband. It also identified an Andrew St.
Quintin who m. to a dau of Wm Franks. That pedigree holds important clues to
this family :
. . .
Sir William St. Quintin m. Joan Thwenge
Sir Thomas St. Quintin son and heir m. Agnes dau Robert Warine [Glover
has her as Agnes dau of . . Mauley] had sons Thomas and Anthony
Thomas St. Quintin 'who succeeded him', living 1399, m. Eliz dau of
Nicholas Gascoigne, had sons Anthony and John [these sons match those in the
1543 will of Anthony St. Quintin]
Anthony m. Elizabeth m. dau Wm Franks of Grimsby
Sir William m. dau of Herrington [this gen not in Glover]
John of Harpham m. dau of Thomas Holme [Glover has her a co-heir]
. . .
Thomas St. Quintin living 1399 may well have been son and heir of his
father, but the will of Anthony proves it was Andrew who was heir of
Harpham, when his elder brother Thomas was thus dsp. Elder bro Thomas would
seem a possible fit for the Sir Thomas who m. Margaret de Hornby [not Eliz
Gascoigne], since clearly he had no male heirs but his children would have
been heirs of their mother.
John also posted the record of John Conyers' 1391 purchase of Margaret
St. Quintin's wardship when she was under age 14, with a link to his 2008
post noting Anthony St. Quintin's wife was Elizabeth (not Margaret) Swinhoe.
John Ravilious' response @
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2008-10/1225323689
noted Margaret was almost certainly b. bef 1386 since son Christopher (as
well as a brother. Robert) was adult in 1402 and likely b. sometime before
then.[1] It would seem reasonable to date Margaret's birth to perhaps 1380,
with son Christopher's to 1400 or before. This would require Margaret's
father [unnamed in the document] to be b. likely by 1360.
As noted by Martin, RD600 p. 431 shows the ancestry of Edward
FitzRandolph of MA as including '[9] Anthony St. Quintin who m. Elizabeth
Gascoigne'. This identity is clearly incorrect, as there is no record of an
earlier St. Quintin/Gascoigne marriage than that noted above. Perhaps there
are some relevant added records in the RD600 sources that might help further
sort this out.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Footnotes
---------
[1] Cited by Ravilious, Westminster, 21 April, 1423:
" John Beker of Richmond, co,. York, 'wryght', for not
appearing before the same, to answer Margaret late the
wife of John Conyers of Horneby, Christopher son of John
Conyers of Horneby, Robert Conyers, knight, brother of
John Conyers of Horneby, Richard de Norton, Thomas de
Langton, Christopher de Boynton and William de
Haukeswell, clerk, executors of the will of John
Conyers of Horneby, touching a plea of detinue of
40s. Yorks.' [CPR 1 Henry VI, p. 28, mem. 8]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Watson" <watso...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: St. Quintin of Hornby, Yorkshire
Martin,
Regards,
John
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Wjhonson
Sir Richard Tempest had one wife Isabel de Bourne who outlived him and died 13 Aug 1421 "seized of the manor of Trefford co Durham
Their eldest son John Tempest "aged 27 and more" 1487; heir of his father; inherited Studley; married Mary Cliderhowe as her first husband in or about 1388; he apparently died s.p. or at least s.p.m. as his next brother William Tempest is described of Studley and this manor descends to William's daughter Dionysia who married William Mallory
William the Great sometimes Nice and sometimes Nasty Johnson
-----Original Message-----
From: TJ Booth_aol <tjb...@aol.com>
To: GenMedieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 6, 2011 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: St. Quintin of Hornby, Yorkshire
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Martin,
Regards,
John
-------------------------------
Wjhonson
Also recte the below Christoper Conyers, per your linked past post, was not "adult" in 1402.
Rather he was adult by 1425 thus *born* by 1404. It's quite possible he was adult by 1423 but I'm agnostic on the point of whether a named (but not yet actual) co-executor must necessarily be adult.
-----Original Message-----
From: TJ Booth_aol <tjb...@aol.com>
To: GenMedieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 6, 2011 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: St. Quintin of Hornby, Yorkshire
.... John Conyers' 1391 purchase of Margaret St. Quintin's wardship when she was under age 14, with a link to his 2008 post noting Anthony St. Quintin's wife was Elizabeth (not Margaret) Swinhoe. John Ravilious' response @ http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2008-10/1225323689 noted Margaret was almost certainly b. bef 1386 since son Christopher (as well as a brother. Robert) was adult in 1402 and likely b. sometime before then.[1] It would seem reasonable to date Margaret's birth to perhaps 1380, with son Christopher's to 1400 or before. This would require Margaret's father [unnamed in the document] to be b. likely by 1360. As noted by Martin, RD600 p. 431 shows the ancestry of Edward FitzRandolph of MA as including '[9] Anthony St. Quintin who m. Elizabeth Gascoigne'. This identity is clearly incorrect, as there is no record of an earlier St. Quintin/Gascoigne marriage than that noted above. Perhaps there are some relevant added records in the RD600 sources that might help further sort this out.Terry BoothChicago IL
Wjhonson
I'm not even certain at the moment who this Thomas even is in relation to any other St Quentin, nor if he is even in the Harpham family at all, or a cadet branch.
John Watson
> I'm detaching Margaret St Quentin as a daughter of anyone at the moment, clearly her father was not the "Thomas" of Hornby her "COUSIN" of which she was called "heir" in 1391 and then a minor.
>
> I'm not even certain at the moment who this Thomas even is in relation to any other St Quentin, nor if he is even in the Harpham family at all, or a cadet branch.
Will,
Cousin means "of the same blood", From the Oxford English Dictionary:
a. A collateral relative more distant than a brother or sister; a
kinsman or kinswoman, a relative; formerly very frequently applied to
a nephew or niece.
b. In legal language formerly often applied to the next of kin, or the
person to whom one is next of kin, including direct ancestors and
descendants more remote than parents and children. (Here taken as =
Latin consanguineus.)
I have seen cousin in ipms applied to grandchildren or great-
grandchildren, or sometime nephews or nieces. Don't read too much into
the word cousin.
Regards,
John
John Watson
> Thanks to John Watson for starting this thread. Have been away for a
> week, but am joining since it has chronological and other implications for
> Conyers of Hornby - about whom there is also more to post.
>
> One important thing to clear up, the Elizabeth Gascoigne who m. Anthony
> St. Quintin was dau of Nicholas of Lasingcroft and Mary Clitheroe, widow of
> Sir Richard Tempest. This is noted several places, including Glover's 1585
> Visitation [Gascoigne of Lasingcroft, p. 238] where she is identified as
> 'Elizabeth [Gascoigne] wife of Anthony St. Quintin of Harpham, who d. 22 Hen
> VI [1433/34]'.
>
> The Gascoigne of Lasingcroft pedigree, in 'History of barwick-in-Elmet';
>
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
>
> We must consider the possibility that other information given in the
> pedigree is wrong and that Elizabeth Swinhoe married not Anthony St.
> Quintin, but John St. Quintin, particularly as there does not seem to
> be any contemporary record of this Anthony St. Quintin.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Terry,
Sir Thomas St. Quintin of Hornby was probably born before 1310 as he
was already married to Margaret de Hornby in 1330:
Westminster. Octave of Michaelmas, 4 Edw. III, 1330. Robert de Horneby
and Christiana his wife, by Peter de Richemond, their attorney, quer.,
Philip Bekard and John de Croft, chaplain, def, of 3 messuages, 49
tofts, a mill and a half, 2 carucates and 28 bovates and 80 acres of
land, 30 acres of meadow, and 32s. rent, in Horneby, Northotryngton,
and Thornton in la More: To hold to Robert and Christiana and the
heirs of their bodies, subject, as to one messuage, 3 tofts, 7 bovates
of land, and 7-1/2 acres of meadow, in Northotryngton, to the life
estate which John le Gerneter of Alverton holds of the inheritance of
John de Croft ; remainder to Thomas de St. Quintin and Margaret his
wife and the heirs of their bodies ; remainder to the right heirs of
Robert.
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Vol. 42, Feet of
Fines for The County of York 1327-1347 (1910) p. 30, No. 49
The St. Quintins of Hornby are always described as a collateral branch
of St Quintin of Harpham, so to figure out which St Quintin of Harpham
was his father, you someone who was having children between the years
say, 1300 to 1320. I don't have much information on the Harpham
branch, but maybe someone here could hazard a guess as to who his
father might have been.
Regards,
John
John Watson
> week, but am joining since it has chronological and other implications for
> Conyers of Hornby - about whom there is also more to post.
>
> One important thing to clear up, the Elizabeth Gascoigne who m. Anthony
> St. Quintin was dau of Nicholas of Lasingcroft and Mary Clitheroe, widow of
> Sir Richard Tempest. This is noted several places, including Glover's 1585
> Visitation [Gascoigne of Lasingcroft, p. 238] where she is identified as
> 'Elizabeth [Gascoigne] wife of Anthony St. Quintin of Harpham, who d. 22 Hen
> VI [1433/34]'.
>
> The Gascoigne of Lasingcroft pedigree, in 'History of barwick-in-Elmet';
>
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
>
> We must consider the possibility that other information given in the
> pedigree is wrong and that Elizabeth Swinhoe married not Anthony St.
> Quintin, but John St. Quintin, particularly as there does not seem to
> be any contemporary record of this Anthony St. Quintin.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Terry,
Just to make one thing clear - I did not say in 2008 that Elizabeth de
Swinhoe married Anthony de St. Quintin. What I said was that Elizabeth
de Swinhoe was the wife of Thomas Mountfort of Hackforth. After his
death (before Feb 1392) she married William Bishopdale, formerly Mayor
of Newcastle who died in 1398. After this she married Richard de
Clitheroe, later Escheator in Northumberland (1403-1405) who died in
1431. Elizabeth must have been dead before about 1410, when Richard de
Clitheroe married secondly Margery de Sulney, widow of Sir Nicholas de
Longford (d. 1401).
Given the fine that I posted earlier it is quite possible, but
difficult to prove, that she married firstly John de St. Quintin, son
of Sir Thomas de St. Quintin of Hornby. I am trying to get you all
away from this fixation with the name of Anthony de St. Quintin. The
only Anthony de St. Quintin who appears in any contemporary records
between 1370 and 1390 was a clergyman. He was the the rector of
Settrington. Anthony de St. Quintin of Hornby is a figment of
someone's imagination.
Regards,
John
TJ Booth_aol
Harpham line, of which Hornby is said to be a 'younger line' based on
evidence not seen here (VCH quotes Harl. MS. 793, fol. 59). It is clear the
Flowers, Glover and Dugdale pedigrees for the Harpham line are flawed prior
to 1500, Fosters has a Yorkshire pedigree for the family [not seen] that is
apparently an improvement, but until now it has been difficult to track down
contemporary documents given multiple spellings of 'St. Quintin'.
There is a reasonable 'St. Quintin of Harpham' pedigree in George
Poulson; 'History & Antiquities of . . Holderness'; Hull, Robert Brown;
1840/41;. Vol I; page 268 @
http://books.google.com/books?id=fQQVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA268. It at least
references some contemporary evidence, so is an improvement on the
visitations. Dugdale/Clay cite it, but it still has flaws and precedes
Foster. The Harpham line, with Foster, is summarized on UK National Archives
@
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=050-ddsqddsq2ddsq3&cid=0#0.
IMPORTANTLY, the site has links to many contemporary Harpham documents
likely not seen by Foster etal, some disproving all earlier pedigrees.[1]
Many will be cited below.
The 4 Dec 1397 will of Sir John St. Quintin, pr. 27 Jan [1397/98?], is in
Testamenta Eboracensia Part I; Surtees Soc; page 215 @
http://books.google.com/books?id=t-suAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA215. He m.(1) Lora de St.
Quintin (widow of Sir Robert Grey of Rotherfield), m.(2) Agnes Herbert, both
wives mentioned in the will. Per the footnote, Lora de St. Quintin's dau
Elizabeth Grey was heir of Lora's father, Sir Herbert St. Quintin [of
Brandesburton, m. Margery de Lisle] after Lora's elder sister Elizabeth dsp
(m. Robert Grey, took the surname Marmion). Dau Eliz Grey m. Henry Lord
FitzHugh of Ravenswood, whose descendants include Conyers, Tunstall, Neville
and others noted in that recent thread. Sir John names sisters Agnes, Maud
de Hasthorp, Alice Prioress of Staynefeld, and a brother Magistro Anthony,
but apparently dsp as no children are noted in his will or the 24 Jan 1404
will of his 2nd wife Agnes [said to be Herbert], pr. 9 Apr 1404, same
volume, page 332. According to Sir John's bio in the footnote to his wife's
will, Sir John was b. about 1347 (suggests an IPM or will for his father) -
although he is said to be of Harpham, he is almost surely a younger son as
he was bur. in Brandesburton and his will was written in Wassand (his wife
had earlier m. a Wassand). Dodsworth visited Brandesburton Church 16 Nov
1620 and noted monuments there for Sir John d. 17 Jan 1397 and his first
wife Lora, d. 1369 - second wife bur. in Wassand in 1404.
Some pedigrees like Dugdale include Sir John in the descent of Harpham,
but the absence of children in his will despite mentioning 3 sisters and a
brother suggest he dsp.[2] Since his will does NOT mention Harpham, he was
likely a younger son. In any case, his older brother Thomas was heir to
Harpham (below).
The 14 Mar 1443/44 will of Anthony St. Quintin of Harpham, pr. 3 Jul
1444, portions of it noted in my earlier Hornby post, is in Testamenta
Eboracensia Part II; Surtees Soc Vol 30; page 95 @
http://books.google.com/books?id=9oIJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA95 . It mentions sons
Thomas (his heir but dsp 1445), William, Anthony and John, daus Joan and
Margaret, and deceased wife Elizabeth. His wife's name is said in a footnote
to be Elizabeth Frank of Grimsby, but given the next 2 Gascoigne marriage
records this is doubtful unless she were a 2nd wife. There is also NO record
of her beyond the visitations. Dodsworth visited Harpham Church 9 Oct 1622,
noting several memorials there including Anthony's son Thomas
(http://books.google.com/books?id=NmsKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1218 ) and several
earlier St. Quintins. Despite a 1442 grant of an oratory to Anthony and
Joan, Anthony's will makes it unlikely he had a second wife named Joan and
suggests she was perhaps the wife of his son Anthony.[3]
Two records have been found that destroy the RD600, page 431 early
pedigree, and prove that Anthony St. Quintin and Elizabeth Gascoigne could
not be the grandparents of Sir Christopher Conyers b. bef 21 Apr 1402. Their
marriage occurred shortly before 1 May 1410, Anthony 'son and heir' of
Thomas St. Quintin and Agnes.[4]. Anthony's mother was likely Agnes Warren
dau of Robert, 'lord of Newbiggin'.[5]
Per a footnote to Anthony's will, Anthony and Elizabeth's eldest son and
heir, Thomas, dsp (i.e. "on the 24th of July, 1445, the administration to
the effects of Thomas St. Quintin, Esq. is granted to Agnes [Constable] his
widow, Sir John Constable being a bondsman. He died without issue, and his
estates passed to his second brother William. His widow remarried Sir
William Skipwith").
Second son, William (then Esq.) and wife Elizabeth were granted Harpham
shortly thereafter on Oct 1446 (thus Wm b. at least bef Oct 1425). One of
the feoffees was Thomas Arderne, bro-in-law to Anthony's wife Elizabeth
Gascoigne.[6] William's wife is shown in Glover and elsewhere as 'dau and
co-heir of . . Holme, of Paull Holme', but at best was a 2nd wife.[7] She
was instead Elizabeth Constable, explaining all the Constable foeffees in
the granting of Harpham. Clay's additions to Dugdale's 'Constable of
Halsham' pedigree (as well as Constable's 23 Nov 1449 will) also confirms
that Sir John of Halsham (m. Margaret Umfraville) had daus Agnes who m.
Thomas St. Quintin, and Elizabeth who m. younger brother Sir William.[8] Sir
William wrote his will 26 Mar 1464, and was d. by 30 Apr 1470, when his son
John, Esq. (thus b. bef 30 Apr 1449) was heir to Harpham.[9]
On 7 May 1475, John Esq. and his wife Eleanor settled Harpham on several
feoffees for an 'intended conveyance' to 'son and heir apparent', another
John.[10] Wife Eleanor was Eleanor Thwaites, as Edmund Thwaites of Lund made
a bequest in his 21 May 1500 will to 'John Sainctquyntyn, [and] Elinour my
doghter his wyf.'[11] John Esq. wrote his will on 24 Jul 1503.[12]
At this point, Clay/Dugdale appears correct. John Esq.'s heir - as
intended in 1475 - was another John St. Quintin (d. bef 10 May 1515), who m.
Margery dau of Sir Robert Constable of Flamborough (she remarried Sir Edward
Gower).[13] They had Sir William of Harpham (b. 1513, d. 25 Jun 1550), who
m. Dorothy (d. bef 2 May 1560) dau of Sir Brian Hastings of Fenwick by Agnes
Portington (see Glover's 1585 Hastings pedigree) - Dorothy rem., as his 3rd
wife, Sir Marmaduke Wyvell (d. bef 26 Aug 1558). They had Gabriel St.
Quintin Esq. of Harpham (b. 1541) who m. Dorothy dau of Sir George Griffith
of Burton Agnes. They had George St. Quintin who m. Anne Creyke, signed
Glover's 1585 visitation, and is shown on genealogics as father of Sir
William St. Quintin of Harpham, 1st baronet b. 1579.
Other UK Archive records help document a Harpham line back to Alexander
De St. Quintin (who left a will dated 30 Apr 1257), son of Herbert by Agnes
de Stuteville (she granted Harpham to Alexander). It will not be done here,
since even if the Hornby line could be traced to Harpham, the RD600 p.431
claim that #5 Sir Geoffrey St. Quintin m. Alice de Ros (the William I
descendant) lacks contemporary documentation.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Footnotes
---------
[1] The hierarchy catalog for 'St. Quintin of Harpham' documents, with links
to the various sections at the bottom of the page, is @
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=207-md229&cid=0#0 .
[2] For instance, Dugdale's pedigree of St. Quintin (w Clay additions @
http://books.google.com/books?id=TqJCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA184). It - like Flowers &
Glover - has numerous errors prior to 1500.
[3] UK National Archives; MD229/30. 20 Apr 1422. Licence. From William
Felter, dean of York and vicar general, to Anthony St Quintin of Harpham esq
and Joan his wife to have an oratory in the manor of Harpham.
[4] UK National Archives; MD229/28; 1409 - 1410. Agreement. Between Thomas
Seyntquintyn and Agnes his wife, and Nicholas Gascoigne concerning
arrangements in connection with the proposed marriage between Anthony, son
of Thomas and Agnes, and Elizabeth, daughter of Nicholas, including
undertaking by Thomas and Agnes to make payment out of their manor of
Newbiggin and lands in Gristhorpe, Lebberston, Deepdale and Seamer; and by
Thomas to enfeoff Roger, parson of Bainton, and Robert Brett in the manor of
Harpham and lands in Harpham, Gransmoor, Thornholme and elsewhere in
Yorkshire so that they may grant the manor etc to Thomas in tail; Agnes to
claim no dower against Anthony and Elizabeth.
UK National Archives; MD229/29; 22 May 1410. Grant in tail. By Thomas
Seintquintyn and Agnes his wife to Anthony Seintquintyn their son and heir
and Elizabeth, daughter of Nicholas Gascon, of their manor of Newbiggin with
appurtenances in Gristhorpe, Lebberston, Seamer and Deepdale.
[5] Charles Boutel; Monumental Brasses; page 311 @
http://books.google.com/books?id=ALksAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT311. "This coat appears
on the brass of Sir Thomas de Saint Quintin and Agnes his lady, at Harpham,
Yorkshire: this Sir Thomas married Agnes, daughter of Robert Warren, lord of
Newbiggin, &c. She died, A.D. 1418. In the engraving of the arms of Warren
the bend only is represented."
[6] UK National Archives; MD229/116; Oct 1446. Grant. By William de St
Quintin, lord of Harpham, to Thomas Ardern esq and William Warde of all the
lands etc in Thornholme, Benton and Kingston Upon Hull which the grantor had
from Thomas and William Warde and William Swilyngton esq., and which they
had had from Anthony de St Quintin his father. Power to Robert Warde to
deliver seisin. Attached to.
Oct 1446. Regrant of same property by Thomas Ardern and William Warde to
William de St Quintin and Elizabeth his wife. [2 halves of indenture].
[Thomas Arderne m. Margaret Gascoigne of Lasingcroft]
[7] Page 264 of the text cited pedigree in Poulson's Holderness identifies
his wife based on a Holme will as follows : "John St. Quintin, sup Rich II,
eldest son, legatee under the will of Henry Holm, his wife's brother, ob.
sup. 29 Aug 1471 == Alice, dau and heir of ___ Holme of Pagel [Paull?] Holme
and sister of Nicholas. See his will." It is possible there is an additional
generation of John St. Quintin's, one of whom d. young, but the chronology
suggests he was more likely a younger son of Anthony d. 1444.
[8] http://books.google.com/books?id=FqJCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA303. His will, which
makes a bequest to 'Elizabethae Seynct Quyntyn filiae meae', is in
Testamenta Eboracensia - Part II; Surtees Soc (Vol 30); page 158 @
http://books.google.com/books?id=9oIJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA158 .
[9] UK National Archives; MD229/144; 26 March 1464. Will of William Seynt
Qwyntyn, knight (Many detailed bequests).
UK National Archives; MD229/33; 30 April 1470. Grant. By Robert Constable
of Flamborough and John Constable of Halsham, knights, Anthony Arden Esq,
Robert Warde of Bessingby, Richard Sproteley, rector of a moiety of the
church of Thwing, and James Yoell, yeoman to John Seintquintin esq, son and
heir of William Seintquintin of Harpham, knight, deceased, of their lands
etc in Harpham and Kilham and the reversion of lands in Kilnwick, Muston and
Filey.
[10] UK National Archives; MD229/117; 7 May 1475. Demise. By Robert
Constable, knight, John Constable, John Saynquintyn, Bryan Routh, John
Hadtfeld and William Eland esqs. to Marmaduke Constable, Thomas Thwaytes,
Richard Portyngton and Christopher Wandsford, of 5 messuages, lands etc in
Thornholme. Declaration [in English] of intended conveyance to John
Seintquintin, son and heir apparent of the said John Seintquintin, and
Eleanor his wife.
[11] Testamenta Eboracensia - Vol IV; Surtees Soc; Vol 53 (1868); page 175 @
http://books.google.com/books?id=RVIJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA175
[12] UK National Archives; MD229/145; 24 July 1503. Will of John
Seyntquyntyne of Harpham, esq.
[13] Dugdale's pedigree (with Clay's 1901 additions) for Constable of
Flamborough, at http://books.google.com/books?id=FqJCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA290. The
balance of the descent is from the Dugdale/Clay St. Quintin pedigree cited
in the text based on wills and contemporary visits.
TJ Booth_aol
To return the favor, his correction said John Tempest was age 27 in 1487. This is likely a typo for 1387 - perhaps he can at least provide a citation for this (an IPM?) given all those we've been providing him.
Double checking more of the Tempest family pedigree against Colman's work, there are a number of better dates for John Tempest, his father Sir Richard, and other Tempests that can be noted. A 20 May 1390 document shows 'Mary Tempest' arranging for seisin of Studley which she had of Isabella [Bourne] who "was wife" of Richard Tempest, knight.[1] So both Richard and John Tempest were d. by that date. There is also a 5 May 1405 fine in which Nicholas Gascoigne and wife Mary [Clitheroe Tempest] agree to pay widow Isabella [Bourne] Tempest and son Sir William Tempest 20 marks per yr for Studley in Mary's lifetime, acknowledging the right of Sir William to Studley.[2] This confirms that Studley descended thru William son of Sir Richard and Isabel, but that it was held by Mary Gascoigne in her lifetime.
Page 163 of Colman starts a well documented charting and discussion of the Isabel Bourne and Mary Clitherow relationship, which has otherwise confused many. Per the page 164 chart, Hugh Clitheroe (d. 1370) was father of Mary Clitheroe Tempest Gascoigne by first wife NN, while Isabel Bourne (mother of Mary's husband John) was his step-dau by 2nd wife Isabella le Gras, heiress of Studley. Other documents provide new dates for the family, including that Sir Richard and Isabel Bourne m. by 18 Oct 1355, Sir Richard then an adult,[3] and John Tempest d. betw 13 Jul 1388 and 16 Feb 1389/90.[4]
Last but not least, there has been great confusion over the years about the wives and family of 'Sir Richard Tempest'. A John Scheurman 2006 post to SGM @ http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-06/1151286172 announced a long article he and Douglas Hickling posted to Chris Phillips great website. The website article exhibits careful scholarship - see for instance 'Who Was the Wife of Sir Richard Tempest (1356-1428)' @ http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/tempest/tempest3.shtml. Its conclusion : 'So, while we believe that Margaret Stainforth was Richard's wife, we cannot be sure that he did not have a first wife.' and allows for the possibilty the first wife was Isabel Bourne or Le Gras.
Several citations in Colman make it clear there were 2 different Richard Tempests, one of Studley (b. bef 18 Oct 1334) and one of Bracewell (1356-1428). They are both clearly identified in a 15 Aug 1382 grant in which "John Tempest son and heir of Richard Tempest of Stodelay grants to Sir Richard Tempest son of Sir John Tempest of Bracewell all his lordship of Pathorne".[5] Either then or by 30 Sep 1382, John Tempest of Studley's father was dead, when John released Pathorne 'inherited on the death of Richard Tempest his father' to Sir Richard Tempest "consanguineo meo".[6] The grants make John of Studley b. bef 15 Aug 1361.
The above 15 Aug 1382 grant is a previously misunderstood record which changes several relationships for the Tempests and their wives at this time. Schuerman/ Hickling, in 'Mary Talbot the Wife of Richard Tempest' @ http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/tempest/tempest2.shtml (middle of the page) identified the father of Sir Richard of Bracewell (1356-1428) as another Sir Richard. Their source was a single record noted in Eleanor Blanche Tempest's 'Tempest Pedigrees' MS that quotes a Hopkinson MS (which the authors also reviewed), whose evidence was a Townley family MS, of "a widow's release by Mary: "The 16 Feb: 13 Ric ij (1389-90) Maria widow of Sir Ric Tempest released to Ric Tempest 'filio meo' her dower in Pathorn & Thornton in Craven. Sir Tho: Talbot chiv 'patre meo' being witness."
The 15 Aug 1382 grant - which is surely the same Pathorne property as in the widow's release - contradicts this, making Mary Talbot's husband Sir John Tempest, not Sir Richard. Given that Hopkinson was - as the article states - a tertiary source (and is also notoriously unreliable), the identity of Mary Talbot's husband and the father of Sir Richard Tempest (1356-1428) would seem best based on the 15 Aug 1382 grant. This would change the pedigree to read that Sir John Tempest of Bracewell (b. perhaps 1330, d. bef 16 Feb 1389/90) m. Mary Talbot and was father to Sir Richard (1356-1428). Sir Richard Tempest of Stodeley (b. bef 18 Oct 1334, d. bef 30 Sep 1382) who m. Mary Clitheroe bef 18 Oct 1355, was likely his younger brother, both the sons (per Scheurman/Hickling's pedigree) of Sir John and Catherine Sherburne.
Although Scheurman/Hickling were aware of the 15 Aug 1382 grant, they apparently relied on the 'Tempest Pedigrees' transcription of it, which as will be seen omits the crucial identity of Sir Richard of Bracewell's father : "'In Aug 1382, Robt de Staynforth was witness to a grant from John son of Sir Richard Tempest of Studley to Sir Ric. Tempest of Bracewell, of land in Pathorne (Ric: Gascoignes MSS) & was associated with Sir Ric. Tempest in a suit over land there & in Settle (Assize Ro. 1500. m. 10). In 1389, Robt Staynforth was to have gone with Sir Richard to Berwick, but was too infirm & aged to go (Pat Ro Cal 1385-89, p. 267).' We have verified only the last of these references."
F. S. Colman's preface notes his reliance on Colonel Gascoigne's 'remarkable MSS collection' and that the records he did not use appear in one of W. Brown's 'Yorkshire Deeds' publications.[7] This suggests not only that Brown placed much value on Gascoigne's collection, but that the only way to verify Colman's transcription of the 1382 grant is to examine the Gascoigne MSS itself.
Perhaps there are other records which may further validate the identity of the father of Sir Richard Tempest b. 1356. It appears the only major change being suggested of the Scheurman/Hickling article is the first name of his father - their carefully documented rejection of a Holand ancestry remains intact.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Copyright 2011
Footnotes
---------
[1] F.S. Colman; 'History of Barwick-in-Elmot'; Thoresby Soc; Vol 17; page 135. "Mary Tempest appoints her cousin, Henry de Tounley, her attorney to receive seisin of her manor of Stodelay and appurtenances in Sallay, Grantelav and Eueston which she had of Isabella who was wife of Richard Tempest, knt. 20 May, 13 Ric. II. (1390). (G[ascoigne]: MSS)" [See also footnote 4, making her a widow 3 months earlier]
[2] Ibid.; page 135. "Fine. Easter, 6 Hen. IV [1405]. Isabella, widow of Richard Tempest, Knt., and William, her son, Knt., plffs. Nicholas Gascoigne and Mary, his wife, defs., concerning the manor of Studeley. Nicholas and Mary acknowledge the right of William, Isabella and William having granted to them for life of Mary 20 marks in silver annually.(G[ascoigne]: MSS)"
Isabella, who was wife of Richard Tempest, Knt., and William Tempest, her son and heir, grant to Nicholas Gascoigne and Mary, his wife, an annual rent of a hundred shillings out of the manor of Stodelay, the condition being to secure the due payment of the annual rent of 20 marks which Isabella and William granted bv fine to Nicholas and Mary. Test. William de Ledes, Robert de Linlay, William Franke, Nicholas Franke, Robert de Bolton and others. Enrolled 14 May, 1405. (G: MSS.)
[3] Ibid.; page 170. Bond from Hugh de Clyderhowe to Sir Richard Tempest knt. in 600 pounds sterling by a cognizance in Chancery to secure payment of the annuity of £40 payable at Stodley to him and to his wife Isabel. Dated at York. St. Luke's Day 29 Ed. III. (18 Oct., 1355). Seal in red wax, a saltire engrailed S. Hugonis de Clederow.
[4] Ibid., page 135. Mary who was wife of John Tempest, widow, releases to Richard Tempest knt all right claim etc which she had by inheritance, dower etc in lands, tenements, woods, meadows, pastures, mills, rents or services etc in Pathorne in Craven and Thornton in the Street in the county of York which came to her at the death of her husband John. Witnesses Thomas Talbot, William de Rilleston, John Dautre, Knights, William de Marton, Alan de Caterall, Thomas de Marton and others. At Bracewell 16 February 13 Ric. II. [1389-90]. (Gascoigne.AfSS.)
An early note says that John Tempest was alive the Monday after the Translation of St Thomas the Martyr 12 Ric. II. (13 July, 1388), but the deed to which this refers is lost. (Gascoigne: MSS)
[5] Ibid.; page 164. John Tempest son and heir of Richard Tempest of Stodelay grants to Sir Richard Tempest son of Sir John Tempest of Bracewell all his lordship of Pathorne which he had of the feoffment of the said Sir Richard his father. Witnesses Simon de Marton, Henry de Pudsay, William de Ryleston, John de Malghom, Robert de Staynford, John de Pudsay, John de Mydhopp and others. At Pathorne Feast of the Assumption 6 Ric. II. [Aug. 15, 1382.] (G[ascoigne]: MSS)
[6] Ibid.; page 164. John Tempest son and heir of Richard Tempest knt releases to Richard Tempest knt "consanguineo meo " all lands in Pathorne which he inherited on the death of Richard Tempest his father. At Bolton Tuesday after the Feast of St Michael 6 Ric. II. [30 Sept. 1382]. (Gascoigne: MSS)
[7] Ibid.; preface. "[Colonel Gascoigne's] Parlington collection of deeds covers not only the manors and estates of the family but touches also many other districts in Yorkshire, and a number of the most valuable of them, other than those I have used, have been included, with Colonel Gascoigne's consent, in a volume of Yorkshire Deeds, edited by Mr. W. Brown, for the Yorkshire Archaeological Society's Record Series.
----- Original Message -----
From: Wjhonson
To: tjb...@aol.com ; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: St. Quintin of Hornby, Yorkshire
Sir Richard Tempest had one wife Isabel de Bourne who outlived him and died 13 Aug 1421 "seized of the manor of Trefford co Durham
Their eldest son John Tempest "aged 27 and more" 1487; heir of his father; inherited Studley; married Mary Cliderhowe as her first husband in or about 1388; he apparently died s.p. or at least s.p.m. as his next brother William Tempest is described of Studley and this manor descends to William's daughter Dionysia who married William Mallory
William the Great sometimes Nice and sometimes Nasty Johnson
-----Original Message-----
From: TJ Booth_aol <tjb...@aol.com>
To: GenMedieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 6, 2011 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: St. Quintin of Hornby, Yorkshire
Thanks to John Watson for starting this thread. Have been away for a
week, but am joining since it has chronological and other implications for
Conyers of Hornby - about whom there is also more to post.
One important thing to clear up, the Elizabeth Gascoigne who m. Anthony
St. Quintin was dau of Nicholas of Lasingcroft and Mary Clitheroe, widow of
Sir Richard Tempest. This is noted several places, including Glover's 1585
Visitation [Gascoigne of Lasingcroft, p. 238] where she is identified as
'Elizabeth [Gascoigne] wife of Anthony St. Quintin of Harpham, who d. 22 Hen
VI [1433/34]'.
The Gascoigne of Lasingcroft pedigree, in 'History of barwick-in-Elmet';
Thoresby Soc; Vol 17, page 134 @
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZRItAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA134, notes that Nicholas
m. Mary Clitheroe 'shortly after' 1392, which I have as 1394. Eliz Gascoigne
was thus b. aft that date. . . .ETC
Wjhonson
For his age Terry
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/ebt/index.shtml
Tempest Pedigrees, collected and compiled by Eleanor Blanche wife of Arthur Cecil Tempest of Broughton-in-Craven and Coleby, co Linc 1878-1922
Vol I page 50
aged 27 and more 20 July 1387 (Inq: Miscell: Chanc. File 273, No. 78)
TJ Booth_aol
I was unaware that Eleanor Blanche Tempest's 'Tempest Pedigrees' ('EBT') was online - it's great that John Scheurman and Chris Phillips made the three volumes available, your link is appreciated.
Interestingly, Tempest Pedigrees correctly cites the essential portion of the 15 Aug 1382 record I transcribed from 'Barwick-in-Elmet'. Both Vol 1, page 51 [sub John Tempest of Studley], and again on page 78 [sub Sir Richard (1356-1428) of Bracewell], quote the record that Sir Richard's father was named John. Sir Richard's father is also identified in the EBT pedigree as John. But of course the Scheurman/Hickling paper took exception to EBT's version of Sir Richard's female ancestry, and apparently changed his father's first name to conform to the Hopkinson record.
Paging through EBT, most of the record transcriptions from 'Barwick-in-Elmet' in my prior post are there. The one record EBT did not note is that Mary Tempest m. Nicholas Gascoigne bef 24 Jun 1397 [1] - EBT does cite the later 1405 record showing their marriage. The 1397 record is important in establishing that Mary Tempest was dau of Hugh de Clitheroe, since Wimpole was originally held by Paulina de Gras, from whom it went to Hugh and his wife Isabel de Gras (Paulina's dau), being held by Hugh and wife Isabel in 1370.[2]
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Footnotes
-------
[1] F.S. Colman; Barwick-in-Elmet, page 165. Fine made St. John Baptist's Day 21 Richard II. (1397), and afterwards at Martinmas 22 Ric. II. (1398) between William Gascoigne, Richard Gascoigne and others, plffs., and Nicholas Gascoigne and Mary his wife defs., concerning the manor of Wympole, acknowledged to be the right of William and he has given to Nicholas and Mary one hundred marks of silver [24 June, 1397J. (G[ascoigne]: A/SS.)
[2] Ibid., page 164. Thomas de Elcesle senior and William de Horwode release to Sir Hugh Cliderowe knt and Isabella his wife and their heirs all right and claim in the manor of Wympol etc in the vill of Wympol and Armington in the county of Cambridge. At Wympol Monday after S. Barnabas the Apostle 44 Ed. III. [17 June, 1370]' (*G; MSS).
----- Original Message -----
From: Wjhonson
To: tjb...@aol.com ; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
TJ Booth_aol
identity of Sir Richard Tempest of Bracewell's (1356-1428) father, from
an earlier Sir Richard of Bracewell, to a Sir John. This contradicts his
identity in a 2006 post by John Schuerman, and in a four part 2006 MS by
Schuerman and Douglas Hickling posted on Chris Phillips' Medieval
English Genealogy website, both cited in the June 10 post.
Mr. Schuerman kindly contacted me offline about the suggested change. Citing
pp 77-79 of Eleanor Blanche Tempest's "Tempest Pedigrees" ('EBT') - a source
unfamiliar to me on June 10 - and other records, it became very clear that
the father of Sir Richard b. 1356 was still alive in March 1388/89. Thus the
wording of a 16 Feb 1389/90 Hopkinson record "Maria widow of Sir Ric Tempest
released to Ric Tempest 'filio meo' her dower" (which was questioned by me),
remains valid. That is, the 1382 grant went to Sir Richard Sr., b. say 1334
(EBT p.77), d. bef 16 Feb 1389/90, whose father was in turn Sir John of
Bracewell. The EBT/Schuerman/Hickling pedigree for these Tempest generations
thus remains valid.
On June 12, 2 days later, Will helpfully provided a citation for John
Tempest b. 1360 that included a link to the EBT transcriptions. My too hasty
and short reply later that day evidenced little exploration of the new link.
As a consequence it repeated the flawed June 10 suggestion, and should be
ignored.
Mr. Schuerman's emails made me aware of the voluminous records contained in
EBT. He and Mr. Hickling greatly added to their number and interpretation in
their own research. The EBT MSS - of which only 2 copies exist, one in the
British Library and one at Broughton Hall - was a single volume of 22 sheets
(23 in the Broughton copy) each sheet 20x24 inches with very tiny writing
and scattered about with colorful shields and other illustrations. The
transcription, done by Canon C. W. Foster about 1932, required 722 pages
plus index in 3 volumes. Only two copies of it also exist, one at Broughton
and the other at Stonyhurst College. The latter copy was scanned by
Schuerman and made more widely available in MSWord format thanks to Chris
Phillips, available @
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/ebt/index.shtml. Others
interested in the Tempest family will want to make use of this great
resource.
One valuable reason for posting to SGM is that sometimes one gets corrected.
Whether graciously (as here), or more bluntly, it can provide valued new
information and sources.
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth_aol" <tjb...@aol.com>
To: "GenMedieval" <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2011 2:02 PM
Subject: Father of Sir Richard Tempest (1356-1428)
Sharp-eyed Will kindly corrected the identity of Mary Clitheroe's first
husband as stated in my 6 June post re 'St. Quintin of Hornby, Yorkshire'.
The cited source - F.S. Colman's 'Barwick-in-Elmet' - did correctly state
that John (not Sir Richard) Tempest was Mary Clitheroe's 1st husband but my
posting mixed them. As Will also noted, Sir Richard, John's father, had m.
Isabel Bourne, heiress of Studley.
To return the favor, his correction said John Tempest was age 27 in 1487.
This is likely a typo for 1387 - perhaps he can at least provide a citation
for this (an IPM?) given all those we've been providing him.
Double checking more of the Tempest family pedigree against Colman's work,
there are a number of better dates for John Tempest, his father Sir Richard,
and other Tempests that can be noted. A 20 May 1390 document shows 'Mary
Tempest' arranging for seisin of Studley which she had of Isabella [Bourne]
who "was wife" of Richard Tempest, knight.[1] So both Richard and John
Tempest were d. by that date. There is also a 5 May 1405 fine in which
Nicholas Gascoigne and wife Mary [Clitheroe Tempest] agree to pay widow
Isabella [Bourne] Tempest and son Sir William Tempest 20 marks per yr for
Studley in Mary's lifetime, acknowledging the right of Sir William to
Studley.[2] This confirms that Studley descended thru William son of Sir
Richard and Isabel, but that it was held by Mary Gascoigne in her lifetime.
Page 163 of Colman starts a well documented charting and discussion of the
Isabel Bourne and Mary Clitherow relationship, which has otherwise confused
many. Per the page 164 chart, Hugh Clitheroe (d. 1370) was father of Mary
Clitheroe Tempest Gascoigne by first wife NN, while Isabel Bourne (mother of
Mary's husband John) was his step-dau by 2nd wife Isabella le Gras, heiress
of Studley. Other documents provide new dates for the family, including that
Sir Richard and Isabel Bourne m. by 18 Oct 1355, Sir Richard then an
adult,[3] and John Tempest d. betw 13 Jul 1388 and 16 Feb 1389/90.[4]
Last but not least, there has been great confusion over the years about the
wives and family of 'Sir Richard Tempest'. A John Schuerman 2006 post to SGM
@
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2006-06/1151286172
announced a long article he and Douglas Hickling posted to Chris Phillips
great website. The website article exhibits careful scholarship - see for
instance 'Who Was the Wife of Sir Richard Tempest (1356-1428)' @
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/tempest/tempest3.shtml. Its
conclusion : 'So, while we believe that Margaret Stainforth was Richard's
wife, we cannot be sure that he did not have a first wife.' and allows for
the possibilty the first wife was Isabel Bourne or Le Gras.
Several citations in Colman make it clear there were 2 different Richard
Tempests, one of Studley (b. bef 18 Oct 1334) and one of Bracewell
(1356-1428). They are both clearly identified in a 15 Aug 1382 grant in
which "John Tempest son and heir of Richard Tempest of Stodelay grants to
Sir Richard Tempest son of Sir John Tempest of Bracewell all his lordship of
Pathorne".[5] Either then or by 30 Sep 1382, John Tempest of Studley's
father was dead, when John released Pathorne 'inherited on the death of
Richard Tempest his father' to Sir Richard Tempest "consanguineo meo".[6]
The grants make John of Studley b. bef 15 Aug 1361.
The above 15 Aug 1382 grant is a previously misunderstood record which
changes several relationships for the Tempests and their wives at this time.
Schuerman/ Hickling, in 'Mary Talbot the Wife of Richard Tempest' @
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/tempest/tempest2.shtml (middle
of the page) identified the father of Sir Richard of Bracewell (1356-1428)
as another Sir Richard. Their source was a single record noted in Eleanor
Blanche Tempest's 'Tempest Pedigrees' MS that quotes a Hopkinson MS (which
the authors also reviewed), whose evidence was a Townley family MS, of "a
widow's release by Mary: "The 16 Feb: 13 Ric ij (1389-90) Maria widow of Sir
Ric Tempest released to Ric Tempest 'filio meo' her dower in Pathorn &
Thornton in Craven. Sir Tho: Talbot chiv 'patre meo' being witness."
The 15 Aug 1382 grant - which is surely the same Pathorne property as in the
widow's release - contradicts this, making Mary Talbot's husband Sir John
Tempest, not Sir Richard. Given that Hopkinson was - as the article states -
a tertiary source (and is also notoriously unreliable), the identity of Mary
Talbot's husband and the father of Sir Richard Tempest (1356-1428) would
seem best based on the 15 Aug 1382 grant. This would change the pedigree to
read that Sir John Tempest of Bracewell (b. perhaps 1330, d. bef 16 Feb
1389/90) m. Mary Talbot and was father to Sir Richard (1356-1428). Sir
Richard Tempest of Stodeley (b. bef 18 Oct 1334, d. bef 30 Sep 1382) who m.
Mary Clitheroe bef 18 Oct 1355, was likely his younger brother, both the
sons (per Schuerman/Hickling's pedigree) of Sir John and Catherine
Sherburne.
Although Schuerman/Hickling were aware of the 15 Aug 1382 grant, they
apparently relied on the 'Tempest Pedigrees' transcription of it, which as
will be seen omits the crucial identity of Sir Richard of Bracewell's father
: "'In Aug 1382, Robt de Staynforth was witness to a grant from John son of
Sir Richard Tempest of Studley to Sir Ric. Tempest of Bracewell, of land in
Pathorne (Ric: Gascoignes MSS) & was associated with Sir Ric. Tempest in a
suit over land there & in Settle (Assize Ro. 1500. m. 10). In 1389, Robt
Staynforth was to have gone with Sir Richard to Berwick, but was too infirm
& aged to go (Pat Ro Cal 1385-89, p. 267).' We have verified only the last
of these references."
F. S. Colman's preface notes his reliance on Colonel Gascoigne's 'remarkable
MSS collection' and that the records he did not use appear in one of W.
Brown's 'Yorkshire Deeds' publications.[7] This suggests not only that Brown
placed much value on Gascoigne's collection, but that the only way to verify
Colman's transcription of the 1382 grant is to examine the Gascoigne MSS
itself.
Perhaps there are other records which may further validate the identity of
the father of Sir Richard Tempest b. 1356. It appears the only major change
being suggested of the Schuerman/Hickling article is the first name of his
Terry Booth
Chicago IL
Copyright 2011
----- Original Message -----
From: Wjhonson
To: tjb...@aol.com ; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: St. Quintin of Hornby, Yorkshire
Sir Richard Tempest had one wife Isabel de Bourne who outlived him and
died 13 Aug 1421 "seized of the manor of Trefford co Durham
Their eldest son John Tempest "aged 27 and more" 1487; heir of his father;
inherited Studley; married Mary Cliderhowe as her first husband in or about
1388; he apparently died s.p. or at least s.p.m. as his next brother William
Tempest is described of Studley and this manor descends to William's
daughter Dionysia who married William Mallory
William the Great sometimes Nice and sometimes Nasty Johnson
-----Original Message-----
From: TJ Booth_aol <tjb...@aol.com>
To: GenMedieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 6, 2011 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: St. Quintin of Hornby, Yorkshire
Thanks to John Watson for starting this thread. Have been away for a
week, but am joining since it has chronological and other implications for
Conyers of Hornby - about whom there is also more to post.
One important thing to clear up, the Elizabeth Gascoigne who m. Anthony
St. Quintin was dau of Nicholas of Lasingcroft and Mary Clitheroe, widow of
Sir Richard Tempest. This is noted several places, including Glover's 1585
Visitation [Gascoigne of Lasingcroft, p. 238] where she is identified as
'Elizabeth [Gascoigne] wife of Anthony St. Quintin of Harpham, who d. 22 Hen
VI [1433/34]'.
The Gascoigne of Lasingcroft pedigree, in 'History of barwick-in-Elmet';
Thoresby Soc; Vol 17, page 134 @
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZRItAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA134, notes that Nicholas
m. Mary Clitheroe 'shortly after' 1392, which I have as 1394. Eliz Gascoigne
was thus b. aft that date. . . .ETC
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