Echyngham and Batisford
charlotte Smith
Hoping to get some good minds to get correct
information on this family into the records.
Here is another piece of evidence from D. E. Ball
"the Stained Glass Windows of Nettlestead Church 1908.
sent to me by Nigel Saul, who wrote the book "Scenes
of Provincial Life-Kmightly families of Sussex" 1986
Margaret Pepelsham md 2nd wm Batisford had:
1. Elizabeth Batisford who md Sir Wm Fiennes of
Hurstmonceaux
2. Joan Batisford who married Sir wm Brenchley d1446
3. Alice who married Sir Wm. Echyngham
It further states:
Alice and Sir Wm Echyngham had
1. Joan who married sir Wm Rickhill he d 1407
Nigel Saul notes: Elizabeth and Fiennes marriage
confirmed by w. L. King Pedigree of the Family of de
Fynes A C 28 (1909) 23
I made error in referring to Joan Batisford Brenchley
as Joan "Echyngham " Brenchley in her will. It should
have been Batisford.
So we have at least 2 different sources giving Alice
Batisford as marrying Sir Wm Echyngham. I feel this is
the same Wm who married 2nd Joan Fitzalan.
Doug Smith
I have been trying to reconstruct the Echingham family and have
enjoyed these good posts. Very rough reconstruction is as follows
with suitable caveats:
1. Reinbert1 (---) Sheriff of Hastings Rape. He married unknown.
Notes for Reinbert (---) Sheriff of Hastings Rape
DD, p 508.
Drogo was his heir, possibly son.
Children of Reinbert (---) Sheriff of Hastings Rape were as follows:
+ 2 i Drogo de2 PEVENSEL, died bef 1129/30. He married nn (---).
Generation 2
2. Drogo de2 PEVENSEL (Reinbert1), died bef 1129/30. He married nn
(---).
Notes for Drogo de PEVENSEL
DD, p 508.
Children of Drogo de PEVENSEL and nn (---) were as follows:
+ 3 i Simon fitz Drogo de3 ETCHINGHAM, died abt 1165. He married nn
(---).
Generation 3
3. Simon fitz Drogo de3 ETCHINGHAM (Drogo de2, Reinbert1), died abt
1165. He married nn (---).
Notes for Simon fitz Drogo de ETCHINGHAM
DD, p 508.
Children of Simon fitz Drogo de ETCHINGHAM and nn (---) were as
follows:
+ 4 i William de4 ETCHINGHAM, died bef 1211. He married Ala
FITZHAIMO.
Generation 4
4. William de4 ETCHINGHAM (Simon fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2,
Reinbert1), died bef 1211. He married Ala FITZHAIMO, daughter of
Haimo fitz MEINFELIN of Wolverton and Matilda (Mabel) MAUDUIT.
Notes for William de ETCHINGHAM
DD, p 508.
Rosie Bevan, post to SGM dated 2003-11-28, DD Corrections and
Amendments - update 3.
Rosie Bevan, post to SGM dated 2004-5-20, Re: Wolverton of Padbury,
Bucks.
Children of William de ETCHINGHAM and Ala FITZHAIMO were as follows:
+ 5 i Simon de5 ETCHINGHAM, born abt 1175 in Echingham, Sussex; died
bef 1242. He married Alice FITZREINFRID.
Generation 5
5. Simon de5 ETCHINGHAM (William de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2,
Reinbert1), born abt 1175 in Echingham, Sussex; died bef 1242. He
married Alice FITZREINFRID, daughter of Joscelyn FITZREINFRID and nn
(---).
Notes for Simon de ETCHINGHAM
Rosie Bevan, post to SGM dated 2004-5-20, Re: Wolverton of Padbury,
Bucks.
Children of Simon de ETCHINGHAM and Alice FITZREINFRID were as
follows:
6 i William de6 ETCHINGHAM, died 1253 (dsp). He married Margaret de
MONTAGU, died 1257 (dsp), daughter of Sir William de MONTAGU and Agnes
(---). Notes: Rosie Bevan, post to SGM dated 2004-5-20, Re:
Wolverton of Padbury, Bucks. CIPM I no. 287. HKF 1: 200.
+ 7 ii Sir Simon de6 ETCHINGHAM, born abt 1218 in Echingham, Sussex;
died abt 1269. He married Paulina (---).
Generation 6
7. Sir Simon de6 ETCHINGHAM (Simon de5, William de4, Simon fitz Drogo
de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born abt 1218 in Echingham, Sussex; died
abt 1269. He married Paulina (---), born abt 1210.
Notes for Sir Simon de ETCHINGHAM
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, p 299.
Rosie Bevan, post to SGM dated 2004-5-20, Re: Wolverton of Padbury,
Bucks.
Children of Sir Simon de ETCHINGHAM and Paulina (---) were as
follows:
+ 8 i Sir William de7 ETCHINGHAM, born abt 1235 in Echingham, Sussex;
died bef 11 May 1294. He married Katherine (---).
Generation 7
8. Sir William de7 ETCHINGHAM (Simon de6, Simon de5, William de4,
Simon fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born abt 1235 in
Echingham, Sussex; died bef 11 May 1294. He married Katherine (---),
born abt 1237.
Notes for Sir William de ETCHINGHAM
CP V: 4-5.
Echingham of Echingham by Spencer Hall, Librarian to the Athenaeum,
London 1850.
Genealogist NS xxi, 244; xxii, 53; xxiii, 19.
VCH Sussex Vol: IX - The Rape of Hastings - 1937, p. 212/213.
The History Antiquities & Topography of the County of Sussex by Thomas
Walker Horsfield Vol: 1, 1835, Sussex Press Lewes.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, p 299.
Camden, Charles Rolls.
Rosie Bevan, post to SGM dated 2004-5-20, Re: Wolverton of Padbury,
Bucks.
Children of Sir William de ETCHINGHAM and Katherine (---) were as
follows:
+ 9 i Sir William de8 ETCHINGHAM Lord Echingham, born abt 1266 in
Echingham, Sussex; died bef 19 Jun 1326 (dsps). He married Eva de
STOPHAM.
10 ii Sir Robert de8 ETCHINGHAM, died 1328 (dsp). He married Joan
(---). Notes: Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian
Society, (1929), Vol. I, p 299.
11 iii Sir Simon de8 ETCHINGHAM, died bef 1 Jan 1320.
+ 12 iv Richard de8 ETCHINGHAM clerk, born abt 1270 in Echingham,
Sussex. He married Katherine (---).
Generation 8
9. Sir William de8 ETCHINGHAM Lord Echingham (William de7, Simon de6,
Simon de5, William de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1),
born abt 1266 in Echingham, Sussex; died bef 19 Jun 1326 (dsps). He
married Eva de STOPHAM, daughter of Sir Ralph de STOPHAM and Isabel
(---).
Notes for Sir William de ETCHINGHAM Lord Echingham
CP V: 4-5 note (e).
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. IV, pps 291-293.
Knights of Edward I, ed. Rev, C Moor, The Harleian Society, (1929),
Vol. I, p 299.
Echingham of Echingham by Spencer Hall, Librarian to the Athenaeum,
London 1850.
Rosie Bevan, post to SGM dated 2004-5-20, Re: Wolverton of Padbury,
Bucks.
Children of Sir William de ETCHINGHAM Lord Echingham and Eva de
STOPHAM were as follows:
13 i Joan de9 ETCHINGHAM, died died young.
12. Richard de8 ETCHINGHAM clerk (William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5,
William de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born abt
1270 in Echingham, Sussex. He married Katherine (---).
Notes for Richard de ETCHINGHAM clerk
CP V: 4-5.
Echingham of Echingham by Spencer Hall, Librarian to the Athenaeum,
London 1850.
Genealogist NS xxi, 244; xxii, 53; xxiii, 19.
VCH Sussex Vol: IX - The Rape of Hastings - 1937, p. 212/213.
The History Antiquities & Topography of the County of Sussex by Thomas
Walker Horsfield Vol: 1, 1835, Sussex Press Lewes.
Children of Richard de ETCHINGHAM clerk and Katherine (---) were as
follows:
+ 14 i Richard de9 ETCHINGHAM, born abt 1295 in Echingham, Sussex. He
married nn (---).
+ 15 ii Sir James de9 ETCHINGHAM, born abt 1297 in Echingham, Sussex;
died 1350. He married Joan d' AKENI?.
Generation 9
14. Richard de9 ETCHINGHAM (Richard de8, William de7, Simon de6, Simon
de5, William de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born
abt 1295 in Echingham, Sussex. He married nn (---).
Children of Richard de ETCHINGHAM and nn (---) were as follows:
+ 16 i Joan10 ETCHINGHAM, born abt 1320 in Echingham, Sussex. She
married Robert I PASHLEY Lord of Thevegate.
15. Sir James de9 ETCHINGHAM (Richard de8, William de7, Simon de6,
Simon de5, William de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1),
born abt 1297 in Echingham, Sussex; died 1350. He married Joan d'
AKENI?, born Est 1320, daughter of NN de AKENI.
Notes for Sir James de ETCHINGHAM
Marlyn Lewis, post to SGM dated 1997-3-23, Re: Echyngham.
Archaeologia Cantina, vol. 3, (1860).
Arms of Sir James: Etchingham impaling wife's coat dimidiatied - a
cross between four lions rampant.
From Chris Phillips - Brault, Aspilogia III:
John Dakeny (d. bef 29 Mar 1300) - Azure, a cross between four lions
rampant or (or argent).
Baldwin Dakeny (fl 1241-1269) - Azure, a cross between four lions
rampant or.
Thomas Dakeny (Norfolk) - Argent, a cross between four lions rampant
gules.
Baldwin Dakeny (Cambs.) - Azure, a cross between four lions rampant
argent.
Based on the heraldry, it would appear that wife Joan was a Dakeny
(d'Akeni).
Children of Sir James de ETCHINGHAM and Joan d' AKENI? were as
follows:
17 i Sir Robert de10 ETCHINGHAM Sheriff of Sussex and Surrey, born
abt 1342 in Echingham, Sussex. He married bef 1379 Elizabeth CRIOL,
born abt 1355, daughter of Nicholas CRIOL and Elizabeth SHOYSWELL?.
Notes: Faris, (1999), p 127. CP XII/1: 717-729. Testamenta Vetusta, p
103 From Testamenta Vestusta: SIR NICHOLAS CRIELL, KNT.
18 ii Sir William de10 ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham, died 18 Jan 1389.
He married (1) (Marie?) SHOYSWELL?; (2) Elizabeth (---).
Generation 10
16. Joan10 ETCHINGHAM (Richard de9, Richard de8, William de7, Simon
de6, Simon de5, William de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2,
Reinbert1), born abt 1320 in Echingham, Sussex. She married Robert I
PASHLEY Lord of Thevegate, born abt 1317 in Thevegate, Kent; died 1362
in Fairlight, Sussex, son of Edmund de PASHLEY and Margaret de
NORMANVILLE.
Children of Joan ETCHINGHAM and Robert I PASHLEY Lord of Thevegate
were as follows:
+ 19 i Sir Robert II11 PASHLEY, born abt 1340; died bef 1397. He
married Anne HOWARD.
18. Sir William de10 ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham (James de9, Richard de8,
William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5, William de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3,
Drogo de2, Reinbert1), died 18 Jan 1389. He married (1) (Marie?)
SHOYSWELL?, daughter of William de SHOYSWELL; (2) Elizabeth (---).
Notes for Sir William de ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham
Faris, (1999), p 127.
Louise Staley, post to SGM dated 2003-2-6, Elizabeth wife of William
ECHYNGHAM (d 1389).
Charlotte Smith, post to SGM dated 2004-5-22, Shoyswell-Echyngham
faimily.
Had brother Robert married to Elizabeth de Criol in some sources.
Possibly William was the one married to Elizabeth de Criol. Monument
in the Church of Etchingham to the Sir Thomas who dspm apparently
includes a relative Sir Thomas who married a daughter of the Lord
Criol. Needless to say, there are major conflicts in the data here.
Also, note the Robert married to Elizabeth de Criol.
Charlotte has suggested that this William was married to Marie de
Shoyswell, sister of John based on Berry's Essex Pedigrees.
Note: DB is very speculative with regard to Etchingham-Shoyswell
lines.
Children of Sir William de ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham and (Marie?)
SHOYSWELL? were as follows:
+ 20 i Sir William de11 ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham, Sussex, born abt
1360; died 20 Mar 1412/13. He married (1) Alice BATISFORD (heiress);
(2) Joan FITZALAN (ARUNDEL).
+ 21 ii Robert de11 ETCHINGHAM, born 1365; died bef 6 Jan 1431/32. He
married Joan THORPE (heiress).
+ 22 iii Thomas de11 ETCHINGHAM, born Est 1370. He married nn de
CRIOL.
Generation 11
19. Sir Robert II11 PASHLEY (Joan10 ETCHINGHAM, Richard de9, Richard
de8, William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5, William de4, Simon fitz Drogo
de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born abt 1340; died bef 1397. He married
Anne HOWARD, born abt 1340, daughter of Sir John HOWARD Admiral of the
North Seas, Sheriff of Norfolk and Alice de BOYS (heiress).
Notes for Sir Robert II PASHLEY
Faris, (1999), p 149.
Children of Sir Robert II PASHLEY and Anne HOWARD were as follows:
+ 23 i Sir Robert III12 PASHLEY of Pashley, co. Sussex, born abt 1370;
died bef 1399. He married Philippe SERGEAUX (heiress).
20. Sir William de11 ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham, Sussex (William de10,
James de9, Richard de8, William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5, William
de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born abt 1360; died
20 Mar 1412/13. He married (1) Alice BATISFORD (heiress), died abt
1395, daughter of William BATISFORD of Buckholt, co. Sussex and
Margery de PEPLESHAM; (2) aft 1395 Joan FITZALAN (ARUNDEL), born Est
1370; died 1 Sep 1404, daughter of Sir John FITZALAN 1st Lord Arundel,
Lord Maltravers and Eleanor MALTRAVERS de jure Baroness Maltravers.
Notes for Sir William de ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham, Sussex
RD 500, p 295.
Faris, pps 9, 127.
Marlyn Lewis, post to SGM dated 1997-3-23, Re: Echyngham.
Louise Staley, post to SGm dated 2003-2-7, ECHYNGHAM & HOO (was
Elizabeth wife of William ECHYNGHAM).
Charlotte Smith, post to SGm dated 2004-5-22, Wm. Echyngham and wife
Alice Batisford.
Genealogic et Heraldica, Vol. 1, p 332.
H.S.P. 105:6 [1954] [1623 Vis. Wilts [Johes Bainton miles fils: et
haer temp: E.4 = Jana filia Willi Ichingham mil:]. Abel Lunt [1963],
pp 209-223.
D. E. Ball, The Stainbed Glass Windows of Nettlestead Church, (1908).
Children of Sir William de ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham, Sussex and Alice
BATISFORD (heiress) were as follows:
+ 24 i Elizabeth12 ETCHINGHAM, born Est 1385. She married (1) Sir
Thomas HOO of Hoo; (2) Sir Thomas LEWKNOR.
25 ii Joan12 ETCHINGHAM. She married Sir William RICKHILLL, died
1407.
Children of Sir William de ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham, Sussex and Joan
FITZALAN (ARUNDEL) were as follows:
+ 26 i Sir Thomas12 ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham, born abt 1401; died 15
Oct 1444. He married (1) Agnes SHOYSWELL; (2) Margaret KNYVETT.
+ 27 ii Joan12 ETCHINGHAM, born bef 1 Sep 1404; died bef 1456. She
married Sir John BAYNTON of Falstone in Bishpston, co. Wilts, MP,
Sheriff of Wiltshire.
21. Robert de11 ETCHINGHAM (William de10, James de9, Richard de8,
William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5, William de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3,
Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born 1365; died bef 6 Jan 1431/32. He married
Joan THORPE (heiress), born abt 1390, daughter of Edmond de THORPE 5th
Lord Thorpe and Joan de NORTHWODE.
Notes for Robert de ETCHINGHAM
Charlotte Smith, post to SGM dated 2003-2-8, Robert
Echingham-Wakehurst.
Children of Robert de ETCHINGHAM and Joan THORPE (heiress) were as
follows:
+ 28 i Elizabeth de12 ETCHINGHAM, died 19 Jul 1464. She married
Richard WAKEHURST.
22. Thomas de11 ETCHINGHAM (William de10, James de9, Richard de8,
William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5, William de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3,
Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born Est 1370. He married nn de CRIOL.
Notes for Thomas de ETCHINGHAM
Berry's Essex Pedigrees.
Children of Thomas de ETCHINGHAM and nn de CRIOL were as follows:
+ 29 i Elizabeth de12 ETCHINGHAM, born Est 1400. She married John
LUNSFORD.
Generation 12
23. Sir Robert III12 PASHLEY of Pashley, co. Sussex (Robert II11,
Joan10 ETCHINGHAM, Richard de9, Richard de8, William de7, Simon de6,
Simon de5, William de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1),
born abt 1370; died bef 1399. He married Philippe SERGEAUX (heiress),
born abt 1381; died 1420, daughter of Sir Richard SERGEAUX Sheriff of
Cornwall and Philippa FITZALAN (heiress).
Notes for Sir Robert III PASHLEY of Pashley, co. Sussex
Faris, (1999), p 149.
Children of Sir Robert III PASHLEY of Pashley, co. Sussex and
Philippe SERGEAUX (heiress) were as follows:
30 i Anne13 PASHLEY, born abt 1400 in Pasele, Ticehurst, Sussex; died
1443 in Downham, Essex.
31 ii Sir John13 PASHLEY, born 1407; died 8 Jun 1453. Notes: Faris,
(1999), p 110. NEHGR 109: 31.
24. Elizabeth12 ETCHINGHAM (William de11, William de10, James de9,
Richard de8, William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5, William de4, Simon
fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born Est 1385. She married (1)
Sir Thomas HOO of Hoo, born abt 1370; died 23 Aug 1420, son of Sir
William HOO and Alice ST OMER (heiress); (2) aft 1421 Sir Thomas
LEWKNOR, born abt 1394; died 22 Jun 1452, son of Sir Roger LEWKNOR
Knight of the Shire and Margaret (Elizabeth) CAREW.
Notes for Sir Thomas HOO of Hoo
Faris, (1999), p 372.
CP V: 289-294.
CP VI: 561-565.
The Visitation of Norfolk, 1563, 1613, London, ed. Walter Rye, (1891),
pps 151-152.
Louise Staley, post to SGm dated 2003-2-7, ECHYNGHAM & HOO (was
Elizabeth wife of William ECHYNGHAM).
Elizabeth Echingham, daughter of William de Echingham (b.c. 1338 d.
12 Mar 1412/13) m. as his 2d wife Sir Thomas Hoo who d. 23 Aug 1420,
and that (b) this Sir Thomas had two sons (one by each of his wives)
named Thomas, one of whom (by the 1st wife, -- Felton, a daughter of
Thomas Felton of Hunts.) was Sir Thomas, 1st Lord Hoo. Elizabeth
continued this musical-chairs tradition by marrying (2d) Sir Thomas
Lewknor.
Notes for Sir Thomas LEWKNOR
Sussex Archealogical Collections, Vol. III (1849), p 98.
The Visitation of Worcestershire, 1569, pps 86-87.
Kevan L. Barton, post to SGM dated 2001-5-31, Re: Knollys and Frowick.
Frederick Charles Case, South Mimms, Westminster, Nichols and Sons,
(1877).
Children of Elizabeth ETCHINGHAM and Sir Thomas HOO of Hoo were as
follows:
32 i Sir Thomas13 HOO, born abt 1400; died 8 Oct 1486 (dspm).
Notes: CP VI: 561-565. Historical Southern Families, Vol. XX, pps
100-101.
Children of Elizabeth ETCHINGHAM and Sir Thomas LEWKNOR were as
follows:
33 i Joan13 LEWKNOR, born aft 1421; died aft Feb 1464.
26. Sir Thomas12 ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham (William de11, William de10,
James de9, Richard de8, William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5, William
de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born abt 1401; died
15 Oct 1444. He married (1) Agnes SHOYSWELL, born Est 1405; died bef
1420, daughter of John de SHOYSWELL of Shoyswell, Sussex; (2) abt 1420
Margaret KNYVETT, died aft 1467, daughter of Sir John KNYVETT Senior,
of Mendlesham, Suffolk and Joan de BOTETOURTE.
Notes for Sir Thomas ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham
Faris, (1999), p 127.
CP IX: 336-337.
Hasted, History of Kent.
Faris, (1999), p 231.
Louise Staley, post to SGM dated 2003-2-7, ECHYNGHAM & HOO (was
Elizabeth wife of William ECHYNGHAM).
Identity of this Margaret is questioned.
Children of Sir Thomas ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham and Margaret KNYVETT
were as follows:
34 i Anne13 ETCHINGHAM, died 7 May 1498.
35 ii Thomas13 ETCHINGHAM of Etchingham, born abt 1425; died 20 Jan
1482/1483 (dspm). Notes: Faris, (1999), pps 127, 189. H.S.P. 105: 6
(1954) 1623 Vis. Wilts. Abel Lunt (1963), pps 209-223. AR 7: 59-37. MC
5: 88-10.
36 iii Margaret13 ETCHINGHAM.
27. Joan12 ETCHINGHAM (William de11, William de10, James de9, Richard
de8, William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5, William de4, Simon fitz Drogo
de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born bef 1 Sep 1404; died bef 1456. She
married Sir John BAYNTON of Falstone in Bishpston, co. Wilts, MP,
Sheriff of Wiltshire, died 20 Jun 1465, son of Sir John BAYNTON and
Joane DUDLEY.
Notes for Sir John BAYNTON of Falstone in Bishpston, co. Wilts, MP,
Sheriff of Wiltshire
Faris, p 9.
Louise Staley, post to SGM dated 2003-2-6, Elizabeth wife of William
ECHYNGHAM (d 1389).
RD 500: 295.
www.bayntun-history.com/home.htm.
Joan said to be married to John Baynton.
Children of Joan ETCHINGHAM and Sir John BAYNTON of Falstone in
Bishpston, co. Wilts, MP, Sheriff of Wiltshire were as follows:
37 i Sir Robert13 BAYNTON, born abt 1439; died bef 6 Oct 1472.
Notes: Faris, (1999), pps 9-11. www.bayntun-history.com/home.htm.
38 ii Henry13 BAYNTON. Notes: RD 500: 311-312. Joan said to be
daughter.
39 iii Edward13 BAYNTON.
40 iv William13 BAYNTON.
41 v Thomas13 BAYNTON.
42 vi Jane13 BAYNTON.
28. Elizabeth de12 ETCHINGHAM (Robert de11, William de10, James de9,
Richard de8, William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5, William de4, Simon
fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1), died 19 Jul 1464. She married
Richard WAKEHURST, died 4 Jan 1453/54.
Notes for Richard WAKEHURST
Charlotte Smith, post to SGM dated 2003-2-8, Robert
Echingham-Wakehurst.
Louise Staley, post to SGm dated 2003-2-7, ECHYNGHAM & HOO (was
Elizabeth wife of William ECHYNGHAM).
Children of Elizabeth de ETCHINGHAM and Richard WAKEHURST were as
follows:
43 i Richard13 WAKEHURST, died bef 4 Jan 1454 (dspm). Notes:
Charlotte Smith, post to SGM dated 2003-2-8, Robert
Echingham-Wakehurst.
44 ii Anne13 WAKEHURST.
29. Elizabeth de12 ETCHINGHAM (Thomas de11, William de10, James de9,
Richard de8, William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5, William de4, Simon
fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born Est 1400. She married
John LUNSFORD, born bef 1387.
Notes for John LUNSFORD
Faris, (1999), p 231.
Children of Elizabeth de ETCHINGHAM and John LUNSFORD were as
follows:
45 i William13 LUNSFORD of Battle, co. Sussex, born bef 1417; died
Est 1470. Notes: Leo van de Pas at http://www.genealogics.org.
Faris, (1999), p 231.
Caveat emptor!
Doug Smith
Louise Staley
> <charlo...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> I made error in referring to Joan Batisford Brenchley
> as Joan "Echyngham " Brenchley in her will. It should
> have been Batisford.
>
> So we have at least 2 different sources giving Alice
> Batisford as marrying Sir Wm Echyngham. I feel this is
> the same Wm who married 2nd Joan Fitzalan.
>
I agree that this evidence suggests William Echyngham was married twice,
first to Alice Batisford and then to Joan FitzAlan. This is a marvellous
find and apparently overlooked by previous Echyngham researchers.
If I may, I would like to return to the date of the Joan Batisford
Brenchley will. It seems to me that her will is a crucial piece of
evidence, and one of the few contemporary documents, for sorting out the
children of William Echyngham.
On the current construction William Batisford and his wife Margery
Peplesham had three daughters, supposedly co-heiresses of a large Sussex
estate.
Elizabeth married Sir William Fiennes of Hertmonceaux, SSX (1357-1402) and
she herself died 18 Jan 1405. Left issue.
Alice married Sir William Echyngham and died before 1400 if Thomas
Echyngham is correctly assigned to William's second wife Joan FitzAlan.
Left issue.
Joan married Sir William Brenchley (d 1446) and has a will dated 1453.
Joan appears to be much younger than her sisters, although both of them
may have died in their early twenties. It would help if we had some more
dates of surrounding people.
If in fact these women were co-heiresses there should be evidence of this,
IPMs, wills, fines etc. as the property was distributed. Such evidence
seems pretty thin on the ground from my initial search of Procat and A2A
but this was very preliminary. The closest I found was this where William
Echyngham (probably the one who died before 1390) and William Batisford
appear together as witnesses;
Reference: AMS5789/50
Sale and quitclaim of arms
Creation dates: 2 July 1370
William de St Legere son of John de St Legere of Coudenne [Cowden in
Wartling] to Thomas de Hoo lord of Wartling
The arms of St Leger which descended to WS as heir male nearest in blood
after the death of Thomas de St Legere
W: William de Etchyngham, Andrew Peverell, John Walays, Thomas Lewkenore,
John de St Clere, Edward Dalyngrigg knights; John Wardeduex of Bodiam,
William de Batisford, John de Coudenne, Ralphe atte Levere, John Farenburgh
Administrative History
[Thomas de Hoo had married Isabel de St Leger in 1325 - VCH 9. 138]
Any thoughts?
Louise
--
Quod dixi dixi
Louise Staley
Rosie Bevan has just sent me the IPM of Margery Peplesham, widow of
William Batisford who died 21 January 1406.
Her heir was Roger Fiennes, son of Sir William Fiennes and Elizabeth
Batisford.
"She died on 21 January last. Roger Fienles, son of William Fienles,
knight, is kinsman and heir, being the son and heir of Elizabeth, daughter
of Margery, aged 21 years and more." C 137/58 no. 24
This means one of three possibilities that I can think of (there may be
others). Either Elizabeth was the only daughter of Margery Peplesham with
Alice and Joan by another wife of William Batisford, or Alice and Joan
were dead by 1406 without issue. Yet Joan's will is dated 1453 so she was
still alive in 1406, suggesting she is not the daughter of Margery.
Similarly Alice, although dead by 1406 is said to have been the mother of
Elizabeth and Joan who themselves or their heirs were definitely alive in
1406. This brings me to the third possibility, that Alice and Joan
Batisford were not the sisters of William Batisford and belonged to a
different family.
The plot thickens.
regards
Cristopher Nash
moving things along & I wish I had more time to join in fully right
now! I'm only going to comment for the moment on Doug's
reconstruction, which - while I know he feels a lot of it's
speculative - holds a real eye-opener for me.
Doug, as you must've seen -- your sequence --
18. Sir William de10 ETCHINGHAM ... died 18 Jan 1389.
He married (1) (Marie?) SHOYSWELL?, daughter of
William de SHOYSWELL; (2) Elizabeth (---).
22. Thomas de11 ETCHINGHAM ... born Est 1370. He married nn de CRIOL.
29. Elizabeth de12 ETCHINGHAM ... born Est 1400.
She married John LUNSFORD, born bef 1387.
45. William13 LUNSFORD of Battle, Sussex, born
bef 1417; died Est 1470.
-- would resolve wondrous-well the matter (with its chronological
horrors) I raised again a couple of days ago. I.e. the Thomas son of
William and fa. of Elizabeth who m. John (de) Lun(de)sford would be a
_brother_ -- not the son -- of William, fa. of Thomas who d. 1444.
(Here'd be the 2-Thomases theory redeemed.)
Without going into details, as you can imagine I hope we can pursue
this, on the lookout for some reasonable documentation. The various
secondary 'sources' (compilers) we've all stared at for years -- e.g.
Hall, Suckling, Saul -- show no such Thomas >born Est 1370. He
married nn de CRIOL<, nor have I _noticed_ any in the original docs.
I've got from the PRO, and there's a natural anxiety for evidence
that he's not just a convenient concoction.
Stupidly, I've never checked Berry, and would like to start with him,
just to see exactly what the claim is (& any mentioned sources). But
there are of course a number of Berry vols. in which the relevant
stuff might appear. I note you say it's his _Essex_ (i.e. presumably
Berry's _Pedigrees of Essex families_ (County geneal.), Lond.
[1838?], whereas Charlotte [with, I think, Louise] refers to his
_Sussex_ (presumably his _Pedigrees of the families in the county of
Sussex_ (County geneal.), Lond. 1830). (It'd also certainly make
sense to scan his _Kent_ -- another county with signif. Echingham
holdings -- also pub'd London 1830.) I'll have a look at these in
the Bodleian, but there'll have to be a slight pause till I get there
next.
I don't suppose anyone here happens to have within reach exactly what
Berry says about this sequence?
Meanwhile, Louise, I've been looking back at your good work toward a
reconstruction of the Criols. Might you happen to have anything
that cd add to our picture of Doug's >22. Thomas de11 ETCHINGHAM ...
born Est 1370. He married nn de CRIOL< ? Noting his useful
weighing-up under his "William 10" --
>Had brother Robert married to Elizabeth de Criol in some sources.
>Possibly William was the one married to Elizabeth de Criol. Monument
>in the Church of Etchingham to the Sir Thomas who dspm apparently
>includes a relative Sir Thomas who married a daughter of the Lord
>Criol. Needless to say, there are major conflicts in the data here.
>Also, note the Robert married to Elizabeth de Criol.
BTW, on the subject of past compilations -- (a) I've not seen William
Henry Hamilton Rogers. _Echyngham of Echyngham, Sussex and
Brianstone, Dorset_ [24p; Sherborne : J.C.& A.T.Sawtell , 1905],
held here by Devon Library and Information Services; has anyone?
It's short & I assume it's grounded on Hall & may be equally
primitive, but might give a useful 'new' detail or two. And (b)
Doug, re your citation (concerning "William 10"), of Faris (1999), I
have his 1996 and AR7, but not this one. Is there any citation of a
son Thomas there?
Cheers to all & for my part, thanks again!
Cris
Doug wrote --
>Generation 10
[SNIP]
>22. Thomas de11 ETCHINGHAM (William de10, James de9, Richard de8,
>William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5, William de4, Simon fitz Drogo de3,
>Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born Est 1370. He married nn de CRIOL.
>
>Notes for Thomas de ETCHINGHAM
>Berry's Essex Pedigrees.
>
> Children of Thomas de ETCHINGHAM and nn de CRIOL were as follows:
>+ 29 i Elizabeth de12 ETCHINGHAM, born Est 1400.
>She married John
>LUNSFORD.
>
>Generation 12
[SNIP]
>29. Elizabeth de12 ETCHINGHAM (Thomas de11, William de10, James de9,
>Richard de8, William de7, Simon de6, Simon de5, William de4, Simon
>fitz Drogo de3, Drogo de2, Reinbert1), born Est 1400. She married
>John LUNSFORD, born bef 1387.
>
>Notes for John LUNSFORD
>Faris, (1999), p 231.
>
>
> Children of Elizabeth de ETCHINGHAM and John LUNSFORD were as
>follows:
> 45 i William13 LUNSFORD of Battle, co. Sussex,
>born bef 1417; died
>Est 1470. Notes: Leo van de Pas at http://www.genealogics.org.
>Faris, (1999), p 231.
--
Merilyn Pedrick
Dear Doug
Thankyou for pushing this line back so far.
I can add another child for Elizabeth de Etchingham and Thomas Leuknor. I
have Nicholas Lewkenor born about 1430 in Kingston Bowsey, Sussex, and died
in 1473. He married Elizabeth Radmylde born 1431 in Kingston Bowsey, Sussex
daughter of Sir Ralph Radmylde and Margaret de Camoys.
Their son was Sir Edward Lewkner who died before 31st October 1522 and who
married Margaret.
Their son was Edward Lewkner of Oakendon Blewsey, Sussex, who died 7 July
1528. He married Margaret Copley born about 1469 in Kingston Bowsey, Sussex
daughter of Sir Roger Copley of Roughway and Ann Hoo.
Then there was another Edward Leuknor born 3 October 1521 in Kingston Bowsey
Sussex and died in 1556. His wife was Dorothy Wrothe born about 1528 and
died after 1st October 1587, daughter of Robert Wrothe and Jane Hawte.
Children of Edward and Dorothy were Thomas, Stephen, Mary, Elizabeth,
William, Dorothy, Anne and Lucrece.
I come down from Mary who married 1st July 1568 Matthew Machell. Their
daughter Mary married Rev. Ralph Cudworth, and were the parents of Gen.
James Cudworth, American colonial immigrant.
Incidentally, I also come down from Elizabeth de Etchingham's first husband,
Sir Thomas Hoo and his wife, Eleanor de Felton. Their son, Thomas Hoo
married Eleanor Welles, and it was their daughter Ann who married Sir Roger
Copley of Roughway (above).
I'd welcome corrections.
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Mylor, South Australia
-------Original Message-------
From: Doug Smith
Date: Monday, 24 May 2004 07:23:42 AM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Echyngham and Batisford - Long
I have been trying to reconstruct the Echingham family and have
enjoyed these good posts. Very rough reconstruction is as follows
with suitable caveats:
< big chunk snipped>
Caveat emptor!
Doug Smith
Louise Staley
message about the chancery suit here.
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 17:02:04 +0000 (UTC), charlotte Smith
> <charlo...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> This case shows Richard as son of Thomas and Margaret.
> The distribution of the will of Thomas was lost and so
> this gives us gome idea of what happened .Should give
> more proof to heirs of Thomas of Suffolk.
>
>
> Chancery Proceeding 24 # 41 (l460-67)
> To the Right reverend father in God the Bishop of
> Exeter, Chancellor of England (George Neville
> 1460-=67)
>
> Meekly beseeketh your continual “Oratair”
> Thomas Echingham , squire, son and heir of Thomas
> Echingham, knight, that were Robert Wylughby, Thomas
> Erpyngham(?Ecyngham),John Heverryngham, Knight, Wm
> Paston, Thomas Denham, John Norwick, and John Aslak
> were seized in their demesnes as in fee of the manors
> of Barsham, Blanchaudes, and Kessyngland and the
> advowson of the church of barsham with the
> appurtenances in the shire of Suffolk.
OK so this says Thomas Echyngham (1424-1482) was the son of Sir Thomas
Echyngham (1401-1444) and he (Thomas jnr) is telling the Bishop of Exeter
that Robert Willoughby, Thomas Echyngham?, Sir John Heveringham, William
Paston, Thomas Denham, John Norwick and John Aslak were siezed of various
manors.
>
> And they so seized made astate there of to Reynold
> Cobham, Thomas Lewknor, Knights, Wm Prestwick , clerk
> John Gregge, John Watele, John Bederynden, John Gibbs,
> Richard Wakehurst, Thomas Knyvett and Wm Clark to
> have and to hold to them and their heirs to the use
> and benefit of the said Thomas Echingham, Knight and
> to perform therefore his last will by force of which
Then, the first set of holders transferred the land to Sir Reynold Cobham,
Sir Thomas Lewkenor, William Prestwick, John Gregge, John Watele, John
Bederynden, John Gibbs, Richard Wakehurst, Thomas Knyvett and William
Clark as feoffees for the will of Sir Thomas Echyngham snr.
Some of these people can be identified.
Sir Reynold Cobham Baron Cobham of Sterborough 3rd (1381-1446) is Thomas
Echynham's 1/2 uncle, the half-brother of his mother Joan FitzAlan
Sir Thomas Lewkenor married Elizabeth Echyngham currently placed as the
1/2 sister of Thomas Echyngham snr
William Prestwick (d 1436) was a clergyman who has a monumental brass at
Warbleton
John Bederyden may have been related to the Wakehursts see
http://www.bodiam-mill.net/sh5dunn.htm
Thomas Knyvett is unplaced, perhaps this is a clerical error for John
Knyvett, the brother-in-law of Thomas Echyngham snr
Richard Wakehurst (d. 1454) married Elizabeth Echyngham, currently placed
as a daughter of Robert Echyngham and therefore as the husband of Thomas
Echyngham snr's 1st cousin
> “astate of the said manor and advowson with the
> appurtenances the said Reynold and his said coffees
> were seized and afterwards the said Thomas Echingham,
> knight declaraed thereof his last will That the
> said Reynold and his coffees should make estate
> thereof to Margaret , wife of the said Thomas
> Echingham, Knight for time of her life. The remainder
> to Richard Echingham, son of the same Thomas
> Echingham, knight said to all the heirs made of his
> body begotten with that that the said Richard
> Echingham would release to the said Thomas Echingham
> , squire, all his rights he had in the land of
> Gruylkynde in Kent. That late were the said Thomas
> Echingham, Knight.
This appears to be saying that Thomas Echyngham snr left 3 manors and an
advowson to his wife Margaret Knyvett for life with remainder to his son
Richard on condition that Richard released all his land in Kent to Thomas
Echyngham jnr. In other words, Thomas senior was making provision for his
widow and then younger son.
>
> And if it happened that the said Richard Echdingham to
> die without such issue of his body begotten, then the
> manor and advowson with all appurtenances should
> remain to the said Thomas Echingham,squire,and to his
> heirs made of his body begotten and for default of
> such issue the remainder therefore to the right heirs
> of William Echingham, Knight. And afterwards the
> said Thomas Echingham, Knight, died.
>
> And afterwards the said Reynold Cobham , Thomas
> Lewknor, William Pretwick, John Gegge, John Watele,
> John Bederynden, John Gybbys, Richard Wakehurst and
> Thomas Knyvertt died and the said William Parker them
> outlived.
>
> And said Thomas Echingham, squire, on death of his
> father required said Richard Echingham to release his
> right that he held in the Gruylkynded to the said
> Thomas Echingham, squire and to do so he flatly
> refused..
>
> Whereupon the said Thomas Echingham, squire, required
> the said William Parker to make astate of the said
> manor and advowson with all the appurtenances to said
> Margaret for the time of her life that remainder to
> said Thomas Echingham, squire , and to his male heirs.
> And to that the said Wn Parker refused..
>
Then Thomas Echyngham snr. died and Thomas Echyngham jnr. tried to get his
brother to release the Kentish lands but he refused so then Thomas tried
to get the only surviving feoffee William Parker to do it but he refused
also.
> Wherefore, please it your gracious lordship these
> premises tenderly to consider and that your said
> Oratour hath no remedy by the comon law to grant a
> writ to be directed to the said Wm Parker to appear
> before you to the Kings chancery at a certain day upon
> a certain payne by your great wisdom to be lamented
> and there to do and receive upon the promises that the
> good faith and conscience required for the love of God
> and in way of Charity.
So now Thomas Echyngham jnr is asking the Bishop to intervene to get him
the Kentish lands.
>
> Signed: Joes Westburn de hastynge in Com sussex
> Gentleman
> John boteler de Odyner in Com sussex yeoman
This is interesting in a number of respects.
1. It provides some indication that Thomas Echyngham snr. was the son of
Joan FitzAlan as Sir Reynold Cobham is a feoffee.
2. It demonstrates the existence of a second son, Richard, of Thomas
Echyngham snr and Margaret Knyvett who lived until at least 1460.
3. It ties both the Lewkenor and Wakehurst families to the Thomas
Echyngham snr. and is therefore further proof that CP is in error in
making the wife of Sir Thomas Hoo "Elizabeth, daughter of Nicholas
Wychingham of Wychingham, Norfolk."
Doug Smith
I have been tracking this and making revisions. CP XII/1 p 724 had
the Thorpe-Etchingham connection. Dixter manor appears to relate to
the earlier Robert Etchingham that I showed as poss. married to
Elizabeth de Criol (who appears to have married his brother William).
Not at all clear that a Thomas married a Criol and if he did there
should be a dispensation somewhere.
Yes Cris, the Thomas b. est 1370 has no documentation as yet. The
problem with these linear pedigrees is, of course, that cadet lines
get buried. If we had a few IPMs or other primary docs we could sort
this out. Shoyswell family is highly speculative at the moment.
Charlotte's chancery proceeding is very interesting.
I will repost with additions/corrections/comments this weekend.
Doug
Louise Staley
> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> 2. It demonstrates the existence of a second son, Richard, of Thomas
> Echyngham snr and Margaret Knyvett who lived until at least 1460.
Dear Doug et al.,
From Charlotte's chancery post and another I found on PROCAT there is
another Echyngham for your excellent (and ever growing) database.
Richard Echyngham, younger son of Thomas Echyngham and Margaret Knyvett,
died after 1460, married Elizabeth daughter of John Gernegan.
Sources: Chancery 24:41, C 1/29/35
Elizabeth, late the wife of Richard Echyngham, esq., daughter of John
Gernegan, esq. v. Margaret Echyngham, mother of the said Richard.: Manors
of Kessingland and Blaungeard: petitioner's jointure.: Suffolk
1386-1486 Item details for C 1/29/35
Louise Staley
sleep. :-)
Trying to tie in another part of the puzzle.
> On Mon, 24 May 2004, charlotte Smith wrote in a thread called "full
> chart of Pepleham-Echyngham"
<snip>
>
> Cris Nash has found and presented on this forum a
> Margaret the now wife of Thomas Echyngham being
> married to Thomas Marney before. Who is this Margaret
> ? could it be Margaret Knyvett or Margaret West both of
> whom married a Thomas Echyngham. More to straighten out.
I have had a look at PROCAT on this and at the surrounding families. What
I have is:
Margaret ______ married Sir Thomas Marney (21 Feb 1393 - 22 Mar 1430) then
she married Sir Thomas Echyngham
Demise by John Marny, esquire, to John Hobbes, the elder, of Kyngeshey,
yeoman, John Hobbes, the younger, and Richard Hobbes his brother, of the
manor of Kingsey, except the part assigned as dower to Margaret, wife of
Thomas de Echyngham, knight, late the wife of Thomas Marcy, knight,
brother of the said John Marny, and excepting feudal services: Bucks.
20 February, 18 Henry VI. [1440] Piece details for C 146/112
Margaret, that was the wife of Thomas Echyngham, knt., and late the wife
of Thomas of Marny, knt. v. John of Marny, brother of the said Thomas.:
The manor of Colquite (Kylquyte): Cornwall.
1386-1486 Item details for C 1/22/16
There are a number of Thomas Echynghams who could qualify as the Thomas
who married the widow Marney.
The easiest one to dispose of is Thomas jnr (1424-1482) who married
Margaret West. Margaret West was born after 1429 so could not have been
the wife of Sir Thomas Marney.
Then there is Thomas snr. (1401-1444) who married Margaret Knyvett.
Margaret married first Sir Robert Tye of Barsham who died s.p. 1415. This
Margaret cannot have married Sir Thomas Marney in the interim and be the
mother of Thomas jnr (1424-1482).
However Thomas Echyngham could have married two women named Margaret,
firstly the widow of Sir Robert Tye and then the widow of Sir Thomas
Marney. The first wife, Margaret Knyvett presumably died sometime around
1430 when Thomas Echyngham snr. then married the widow of Sir Thomas
Marney and it was this Margaret that lived until after 1467. This would
make Margaret Knyvett the mother of Thomas jnr. the heir but not
neccessarily the mother of the other known children of Thomas snr.,
Richard, Anne & Elizabeth.
There is a third possibility, the mysterious Thomas Echyngham, father of
Elizabeth who married John Lunsford and is currently tentatively assigned
a Criol wife. This construction is possible but unlikely on chronological
grounds. Elizabeth Echyngham apparently had a child before 1407 (William
Lunsford apparently appears as an adult in 1428) so she was born before
1392. It is possible that her father remarried in his old age to the Widow
Marney after 1430, some 38 years after the latest date his daughter could
have been born, however this seems to be stretching things too far. This
is particularly the case if, as Cris Nash has pointed out, Thomas
Echyngham continued to have Cornish interests for some time after he
married the Widow Marney.
Failing yet another Sir Thomas Echyngham appearing from the mists of time,
it would appear that the most likely candidate for the husband of the
Widow Marney is Sir Thomas Echyngham (1401-1444).
Comments, critiques anyone?
Cristopher Nash
over. (And your precis of the chancery case is - from my memory of
the case - a nice untangling of Suckling's intricate report.)
Meantime many apologies! Doug, it was _your_ Criol work (of Apr 02)
I had in mind! and I think you've answered my query, i.e. you've
found no Echingham associations among your Criol papers that would
help with the problem below. I'll see what PROCAT says, for starters
(unless someone gets there afore me!)
Cheers,
Cris
--
Louise Staley
<c...@windsong.u-net.com> wrote:
> Louise, this is extremely helpful thinking and I want to mull it over.
> (And your precis of the chancery case is - from my memory of the case -
> a nice untangling of Suckling's intricate report.) Meantime many
> apologies! Doug, it was _your_ Criol work (of Apr 02) I had in mind!
> and I think you've answered my query, i.e. you've found no Echingham
> associations among your Criol papers that would help with the problem
> below. I'll see what PROCAT says, for starters (unless someone gets
> there afore me!)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cris
Dear Charlotte, Cris, Doug et al.,
While I wait with enthusiasm for Cris' thoughts on the Margarets I have
now been sent by Rosie Bevan the full text of Thomas Echyngham's will.
This is Thomas snr. (1401-1444). For those of you who read Latin, please
bear with me as you read what is probably an awfully mangled and
abbreviated translation.
The Genealogist v.21 p.247
Testamentum thome Echyngham Militis
In dei nomine Amen Ego Thomas Echyngham Miles compos mentis XXmo die
Augusti
Anno domini Millimo ccccmo xliiij to condo testamentum meum in hunc modum.
In pimis lego aiam mea deo omnipotenti beate Marie & omnibus sanctis &
corpus mue ad sepeliend in Cancell beate Marie virginis de Echyngham iuxa
sepulturam dne Johanne matris mee. Item lego Sumo altari apud Echyngham
pro
decimis meis oblitis seu detentis quadraginta solidos. Item lego sumo
altari
dce ecclie pro uno Calice argenteo & deaurato Centu solidos. Item lego
custodibz dicte ecclie ad repandu eccliam pdcam xx marcas. Itm lego thome
Sentlegere filiolo meo quinque marcas. Residuu oim bonoz meoz non legatoz
decimis meis pimit plenarie psolutis Do & lego Margarete Uxori mei Thome
Lewkenore militi Dne Elizabeth Lewkenore sorori mei Thome Echyngham filio
meo Henrici priori priorat de Coumbewelle Thome Hoo Rico Wakthurst Juniori
&
Johi asheburnham quos constituo & ordino executores meos ad disponend &
exequend presens testamentum meu & ultima voluntatem mea prout ei melius
viderint expedire Et Johem ffortescu & Rogeru ffenys Milites quos constituo
& ordino supuisores hui testameti & voluntatis mee predicte.
Probatum fuit presens testamenrum cora Dno xxviijo die mensis Octobr Anno
Dni Millimo ccccmo xliiijto in Maneri suo de Lamehith Anno trans sue scdo
Will of Thomas Echyngham, knt.
In the name of God Amen. I Thomas Echyngham, knight, of sound mind this
20th of August 1444 make this will. Firstly I bequeath my soul to almighty
God, Blessed Mary and the holy Ghost, my body to be buried in the
Echyngham vault near my mother Joan. A number of religious bequests. Item
to Thomas SeintLeger my godson? [filiolo meo] 50 marks. The residual to my
wife Margaret [uxori mei], Sir Thomas Lewkenor, Dame Elizabeth Lewkenor my
sister [sorori mei], my son Thomas Echyngham [filio meo], Henry the Prior
of Camberwell, Thomas Hoo, Richard Wakehurst jnr. and John Ashburnham whom
I constitute my executors. I appoint Sir John Fortescue and Sir Roger
Fiennes as my supervisors of this my will.
Probated 24th October 1444.
As previously posted this will identifies Thomas's wife as Margaret, his
son as Thomas and his sister as Elizabeth Lewkenor. What has not been
posted is the identification from this will of Joan [FitzAlan] as Thomas's
mother, also new is Thomas Saint Leger as Thomas Echynham's godson (if
that is what filiolo meo means) and Sir Roger Fiennes as a supervisor. Sir
Roger Fiennes (1384-1449) was the son of William Fiennes (1357-1403) who
is shown in a number of sources as the husband of Elizabeth Batisford,
sister of Alice Batisford, the tentitively identified first wife of
William Echyngham, father of the testator. So this does appear to create
another link between the Echynghams, Fiennes and Batisfords. The presence
of Sir John Fortescue is also interesting because if it is the Sir John
Fortescue who became Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench (1400-1476)
this would be a Devon connection that might suggest it was this Thomas
Echyngham who married the Marney widow.
Missing is any idea what relation if any John Ashburnham and Henry the
Prior of Camberwell were.
The presence of Thomas Saint Leger also suggests a Hoo connection. A
Thomas Hoo of an earlier generation had married Isabel Saint Leger
according to VCH 9 p 138.
The major hurdle to linking the Echynhams, Fiennes and Batisfords is the
IPM of Margery Peplesham, wife of William Batisford and mother of
Elizabeth Batisford who married Sir William Fiennes. In this IPM her heir
is Roger Fiennes, presumably the same one as mentioned in the will of
Thomas Echyngham. Yet Roger Fiennes was the heir through his mother
Elizabeth Batisford. If Alice Batisford was Elizabeth's full sister then
Thomas Echynham would have been a co-heir. So at best Alice Batisford and
Elizabeth Batisford may be half sisters.
Thoughts, comments, ideas on how to translate filiolo meo, criticism of my
appalling Latin?
regards
Chris Phillips
Louise Staley wrote:
> Thoughts, comments, ideas on how to translate filiolo meo,
Yes, "to my godson" is correct.
Chris Phillips
Louise Staley
> <charlo...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> I was hesitant to bring up this St. Leger family at this time,and
> intented to very soon, but since the question arose I will add this
> much. The book " Les Saint Leger A Travers L'Historire" by Maurice
> and Bernard St. Leger, Paris 1989 in French of course discusses the St.
> and the Echyngham family in detail and their relationship to each
> other. The chancery case I sent discusses Simon Echyngham and his
> daughter who married Wm st. leger, son of Geoffrey. Sibille(sybel)
> Echingham was her name . They also had charts in the book giving the
> descent and I will give this one that fits into the inquirey today
>
> 1. Wm St Leger b 1210/15 d 1262 md Sibille de
> Etchdingham
> 2. Geoffrei St. Leger b 1240 d 12272 md
> Agnes de Warbilnton
> 3. John St. Leger b 1267 md Isabella de
> Havering
> 4. John b 1290-1326 md Jeanne?
> 5. Isabella de St. Leger 1319-1395 md Sir
> Thomas de Hoo The chart then goes on to say Descendance Hoo, Carew,
> Boleyn, Devereux, Harcourt, Tudor, I would suspect that their son
> might be a Thomas. I shall read further and try to translate
> French charlotte
>
Dear All,
The marriage of Isabella St Leger and Thomas Hoo seems a bit remote to
have much bearing on the current problem of the wives and children of Sir
William Echynham. In the reference above we have a St Leger daughter
marrying a Hoo about 70 years before Thomas Echyngham becomes the
god-father of Thomas St Leger (I'm assuming here that Thomas Echyngham was
an adult when he did so, therefore Thomas St Leger was born after 1421).
It is clear the families were close but the marriage of Isabella St Leger
doesn't appear to help identify the relationship, if any, between Thomas
Echyngham and his godson Thomas St Leger.
I think it might be more productive to do a stocktake of what we know
about William Echyngham and his spouse[s] and children and work outwards
from there to identify the surrounding families. I will post this shortly.
Louise Staley
Would anyone like to comment on whether you agree this sums up where we
are now on Sir William Echyngham, his wives and children? I think there
are four outstanding problems to be resolved as noted below. I also think
we need to straighten this out before we try and tackle the really
intractable problems of the mysterious Thomas and whether the Wakehurst
and other links are correctly placed.
1. Sir William Echyngham Lord of Echyngham, son of Sir William Echyngham
Lord of Echyngham and Mary Shoyswell, died on 20 Mar 1413, and was buried
in Etchingham, SSX, ENG.
See the discussion under the marriage of Thomas Echyngham and Agnes
Shoyswell for the placement of the Shoyswell wife as this William's mother.
William married Alice Batisford co-heiress, daughter of William Batisford
and Margery Peplesham of Sussex.
Speculative.
Based on Ball (1908) "The Stained Glass Windows of Nettlestead Church" as
cited by Charlotte Smith 23 May 2004.
Ball (1908) gives William Batisford and Margery Peplesham as the parents
of Alice Batisford, he also gives this couple two other daughters Joan
married to Sir William Brenchley and Elizabeth married to Sir William
Fiennes.
The Fiennes/Batisford marriage is well attested. The will of Joan
Brenchley survives and in it she mentions Elizabeth Lewkenor and Thomas
Hoo, her son. This strongly suggests a link between Joan Batisford and
William Enchyngham as Elizabeth Lewkenor was his daughter. In addition,
the will of Thomas Echyngham appoints Sir Roger Fiennes as a supervisor.
In Ball's construction Thomas Echyngham would be the first cousin of Sir
Roger Fiennes.
There are two problems with this construction. Firstly, Joan Brenchley's
will is dated 1453 some 50 years after her supposed sisters died.
Secondly, Margery Peplesham's IPM only mentions Elizabeth Fiennes as an
heir. If Joan and Alice were Elizabeth's full sisters then they would have
been co-heirs. Therefore either they are not sisters at all but have some
other blood relationship, or they are half-sisters with Elizabeth by
Margery Peplesham and Joan and Alice by a second wife.
THIS IS AN OUTSTANDING PROBLEM
Children from this marriage were:
+ 2 F i. Elizabeth Echyngham .
+ 3 F ii. Joan Echyngham .
William next married Joan Fitzalan, daughter of Sir John Fitzalan Baron
Arundel 1st and Eleanor Maltravers Baroness Maltravers de jure, after 25
Sep 1395.
This marriage appears in CP VI: 567 (Hoo) and MCS 88-9.
Children from this marriage were:
+ 4 M i. Sir Thomas Echyngham Lord of Echyngham was born about 1401,
died on 15 Oct 1444, about age 43, and was buried in Etchingham, SSX,
ENG.
+ 5 F ii. Joan Echyngham was born before 1 Sep 1404.
-----SECOND GENERATION (Children)-----
2. Elizabeth Echyngham .
Identification of her father is based on the will of Thomas Echyngham
which describes Dame Elizabeth Lewkenor as his sister. This will also
makes Thomas Hoo a beneficiary & trustee of his will. It is currently
assumed that the Thomas Hoo in the will is the son of Elizabeth Echyngham.
The identification of her mother comes from Ball (1908) "The Stained Glass
Windows of Nettlestead Church" posted by Charlotte Smith 23 May 2004. One
of CP VI: 564 or VI:565(a) mentions that Thomas Hoo's second wife then
married Thomas Lewkenor. C.P. does not identify Thomas Hoo's second wife.
Elizabeth married Sir Thomas Hoo.
See CP VI: 564 or VI:565(a) for sources that make the Thomas Hoo that also
married Eleanor Felton the one whose widow then married Thomas Lewkenor.
However, there is a pedigree which appears in the de banco roll 1469 and
reproduced in "The Genealogist" (1903) and posted 29 May 2004 by Charlotte
Smith, which makes the Thomas Hoo who married Elizabeth Echyngham the one
who also married Eleanor Welles. The second Thomas Hoo is the son of
Thomas above by his first wife Eleanor Felton.
There is a major chronological problem with making it the son who married
Elizabeth Echyngham, namely that Thomas Hoo (Baron Hoo) died in 1454 so
his widow could not have then married Thomas Lewkenor and been the mother
of the Thomas Hoo that appears in the 1444 will of Thomas Echyngham.
THIS IS AN OUTSTANDING PROBLEM
The child from this marriage was:
6 M i. Thomas Hoo died on 8 Oct 1486 s.p.
Elizabeth next married Sir Thomas Lewkenor.
3. Joan Echyngham .
Identification of her parents and spouse from Ball (1908) "The Stained
Glass Windows of Nettlestead Church" quoted by Charlotte Smith to SGM on
23 May 2004. See the comments on her half-sister Joan.
Joan married Sir William Rickhill.
4. Sir Thomas Echyngham Lord of Echyngham was born about 1401, died on 15
Oct 1444, about age 43, and was buried in Etchingham, SSX, ENG.
Parentage appears in many sources including Suckling (1905). He mentions
his mother Joan in his will providing primary evidence he was the son of
Joan FitzAlan.
In his will he refers to his sister Lewkenor, his son Thomas, his godson
Thomas St Leger and his wife Margeret. He also refers to Sir Thomas
Lewkenor, Henry the Prior of Camberwell, Thomas Hoo, Richard Wakehurst
jnr., John Ashburnham, Sir John Fortescue and Sir Roger Fiennes.
Thomas married Agnes Shoyswell.
This marriage appears in some traditional accounts of this family however
Charlotte Smith on 22 May 2004, citing Berry Sussex Genealogy, suggested
that this was incorrect and it was in fact Thomas's grandfather William
who married Marie Shoyswell.
Thomas next married Margaret Knyvett, daughter of Sir John Knyvett of
Mendlesham, SFK and Joan Botetourt, between 1415 and 1424.
The identification of Margaret Knyvett is from Suckling (1905). Cris Nash
posted the relevant parts of the argument to SGM on 18 July 2003.
"Suckling cites 2 charters in which John Knyvet, evidently son of John
Knyvet 'senior', grants (a) the manor of Deenthorp (Northants) with
appurtances in Deenthorpe, Kyrkeby Deen, Bolwyk and Great Weldon and a
piece of land in Tattokleyes (11 Oct 1410), and (b) lands in the town of
Thurning (Hunts) (6 Oct 1411), to Robert Ty, Knight, and his wife Margaret
and their heirs; and (c) a 'charter' of 20 March 1456-/7 -- actually a
deposition endorsed by, among others, Margaret's son Thomas Echingham --
giving an account of the history of the passage of these holdings to
Thomas de Echingham and others (including known eventual heirs of
Thomas's) . In (a) & (b) the named properties are remaindered to John
Knyvet 'senior' and his wife Margaret and, following that, to the
grantor's sisters Katherine and Elizabeth and their heirs."
Children from this marriage were:
7 M i. Sir Thomas Echyngham Lord of Echyngham was born in 1424 and died
on 20 Jan 1482-1483, at age 58. He married Margaret West daughter of Sir
Reynold West Baron de la Warre 6th and Margaret Thorley.
8 F ii. Anne Echyngham died on 7 May 1498, and was buried in Bermondsey
Abbey, SRY, ENG. Anne married John Rogers of Bryanston, DOR then Sir John
Audley Baron Audley 6th before 1456.
Thomas next married Margaret Wife of Thomas Marney after 1430.
Highly speculative.
See C 146/112 and C 1/22/16 which refer to "Margaret, that was the wife of
Thomas Echyngham, knt., and late the wife of Thomas of Marny, knt."
If Thomas Echyngham married Margaret Knyvett and then Margaret, the widow
of Thomas Marney then it must have occurred after 1430 when Sir Thomas
Marney died.
C 24/41 posted by Charlotte Smith 24 May 2004 provides some circumstantial
support to this theory in the sense that it provides for dower for Thomas
Echyngham's widow with those properties then going to his son Richard.
Thomas Echyngham's son & heir Thomas is only mentioned in relation to
other properties so this chancery suit may indicate that Richard was the
son of a second wife of Thomas Echynham.
There is also C 1/29/35 which is a claim by Richard Echyngham's widow for
her jointure.
"Elizabeth, late the wife of Richard Echyngham, esq., daughter of John
Gernegan, esq. v. Margaret Echyngham, mother of the said Richard.: Manors
of Kessingland and Blaungeard: petitioner's jointure.: Suffolk."
Note that Kessingland and Blaunden formed part of Margaret's dower and
according to C 24/41 were to go to Richard Echyngham after her death. From
C 1/29/35 above it can be seen that Richard's mother Margaret outlived him
and his widow then sued for her dower from her mother-in-law.
Further research is required into the antecedents of the manors of
Barsham, Blanchaudes and Kessingland and the advowson of the church of
Barsham in Suffolk.
It is also not clear who is the mother of Anne Echyngham above, she also
could have been a daughter of Thomas Echyngham's second marriage.
THIS IS AN OUTSTANDING PROBLEM
The child from this marriage was:
9 M i. Richard Echyngham died between 1460 and 1476. Richard married
Elizabeth Gernegan, daughter of John Gernegan.
5. Joan Echyngham was born before 1 Sep 1404.
Described in PA2 as "daughter, it is said" suggesting this is from the
Wiltshire Visitation and has no other evidence. Note this means the
exisitence of both daughters named Joan is from secondary sources known to
have errors.
THIS IS AN OUTSTANDING PROBLEM
Joan married Sir John Baynton of Falstone in Bishpston, WIL before 1439.
Brad Verity
> 4. Sir Thomas Echyngham Lord of Echyngham was born about 1401, died on 15
> Oct 1444, about age 43, and was buried in Etchingham, SSX, ENG.
> Parentage appears in many sources including Suckling (1905). He mentions
> his mother Joan in his will providing primary evidence he was the son of
> Joan FitzAlan.
And Joan Fitzalan was first cousin to Philippa Sergeaux, grandmother
of Sir Thomas Marney, who was the first husband of Echingham's wife
Margaret.
> Thomas next married Margaret Knyvett, daughter of Sir John Knyvett of
> Mendlesham, SFK and Joan Botetourt, between 1415 and 1424.
> Children from this marriage were:
>
> 7 M i. Sir Thomas Echyngham Lord of Echyngham was born in 1424 and died
> on 20 Jan 1482-1483, at age 58. He married Margaret West daughter of Sir
> Reynold West Baron de la Warre 6th and Margaret Thorley.
> Thomas next married Margaret Wife of Thomas Marney after 1430.
>
> Highly speculative.
> See C 146/112 and C 1/22/16 which refer to "Margaret, that was the wife of
> Thomas Echyngham, knt., and late the wife of Thomas of Marny, knt."
>
> If Thomas Echyngham married Margaret Knyvett and then Margaret, the widow
> of Thomas Marney then it must have occurred after 1430 when Sir Thomas
> Marney died.
Couldn't the two Margarets - Knyvett and Marney - be one and the same?
I don't think it's been determined yet which family Marney's wife
Margaret came from.
Sir Thomas Marney, elder son and heir of Sir William Marney, of Layer
Marney, Essex, by his wife Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Richard
Sergeaux, was of full age in November 1414 when he succeeded to the
family estates after the death of his father. So born by 1393.
From his Sergeaux mother, Marney inherited part of the manor of
Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, and several lands in Cornwall, probably
one of which was the manor of Colquite (that manor definitely wasn't
part of the inheritance of Marney's aunt Philippa).
Sir Thomas Marney served under the Duke of Clarence in the French wars
(his father William had been part of the inner administrative circle
of the Countess of Hereford - a Fitzalan - and Clarence's
grandmother), and died in April 1421 (probably killed at Bauge).
Writs of diem clausit extremum were issued to the escheators of the
counties of Cornwall, Essex, Oxford, Buckingham and London, on 28
April 1421.
There probably is an IPM for Sir Thomas Marney in the most recent
published volume of the Calendar of IPMs. He left a widow, Margaret,
and a young daughter, also named Margaret, but some of the estates may
have been entailed to male heirs only.
From Fine Rolls: "28 Oct. 1421, Westminster. Commitment to Walter
Lyon,--by mainprise of John Glover of the county of Buckingham and
John Hertwell of London, 'mercer,'--of the keeping of the manor of
Kyngesey, co. Buckingham, which came to the king's hands and is still
in the king's hand by the death of Thomas Marny, 'knight,' who held of
the king in chief by knight service on the day of his death, and by
reason of the minority of John his brother and heir male; to hold the
same from Michaelmas last until the lawful age of the said heir,
rendering 16l. yearly by equal portions at Easter and Michaelmas; with
clause touching maintenance of houses, enclosures and buildings, and
support of charges. By bill of treasurer."
Marney's widow Margaret appears to have still been unmarried in 1422.
From Fine Rolls: "26 Dec. 1422, Westminster. Commitment to Margaret
late the wife of Thomas Marny, knight,--by mainprise of John Whateley
of London and John Battescombe of the county of Devon,--of the keeping
of two-thirds of a third part of the manor of Chepyngnorton [Chipping
Norton, Oxfordshire], which came to the hands of Henry V and are still
in the king's hand by the death of Thomas; to hold the same from
Michaelmas last for as long as the premises shall remain in the king's
hand on that account, rendering for the keeping 7 marks yearly by
equal portions at Easter and Michaelmas, maintaining the houses,
enclosures and buildings, and supporting all other charges incumbent
on the said two-thirds. By bill of the treasurer."
Before the death of Henry V, Margaret, the young daughter and heiress
of Sir Thomas Marney, died. His brother John Marney came of age in
1424 and received the family lands, save those that Margaret, Thomas's
widow held in dower.
From Close Rolls: "2 Aug. 1424, Westminster. To the escheator in
Oxfordshire. Order to give John Marny, brother of Thomas Marny knight
and uncle and heir of Margaret daughter and heir of Thomas who died
within age in ward of the late king, seisin of his said brother's
lands; as he has proved his age before Richard Baynarde escheator in
Essex, and for half a mark paid in the hanaper the king has respited
until next Michaelmas year the homage and fealty of the said John, who
is over sea."
It seems possible, since Thomas Echingham, Lord of Echingham, was not
born until 1424, that his mother Margaret (Knyvett?), could have been
Margaret, the widow of Sir Thomas Marney.
I have no information on the Echinghams, but I hope the Marney
information helps.
Cheers, --------Brad
Cristopher Nash
it coincides exactly with mine, & thanks loads for the confirmation.
Looking over it quickly, I think the key things - apart from our
having established the chronological feasibility of --
>It seems possible, since Thomas Echingham, Lord of Echingham, was not
>born until 1424, that his mother Margaret (Knyvett?), could have been
>Margaret, the widow of Sir Thomas Marney.
-- have been that --
>Joan Fitzalan was first cousin to Philippa Sergeaux, grandmother
>of Sir Thomas Marney, who was the first husband of Echingham's wife
>Margaret
-- and that --
>Margaret daughter and heir of Thomas who died within age in ward
Meanwhile, on your --
>From his Sergeaux mother, Marney inherited part of the manor of
>Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, and several lands in Cornwall, probably
>one of which was the manor of Colquite (that manor definitely wasn't
>part of the inheritance of Marney's aunt Philippa).
-- my rootling showed Colquite _missing_ from among the named
inherited Cornwall lands I've seen - leaving it a longstanding (tho
always secondary!) puzzle to me in trying to trace the exact
Echingham/Marney relationship.
But there's no doubt more in what you've writ than meets my presently
racing (&, in the midst of truckloads of other work, somewhat
gyrating) eye, & it definitely deserves a sharper look. Louise,
Charlotte, see anything else?
Best to all,
Cris
Brad wrote
--