Renaud de Courtenay
Andy Herron
A three part question -
1.There seems to be some discrepancies in the relationship between
Ermengarde de Nevers who married Milo de Courtenay with her son, Renaud
(Reginald) de Courtenay as discussed in Weis line 138. I don't know which
researcher or source should be given more weight. It does seem odd if
Renaud was so powerful in France that he would become such a "minor
functionary" in England. Or perhaps not, I don't know enough about the
politics of the time to make any judgement.
2.Weis also refers to a wife for Renaud in line 107 as dau. of Frederick du
Donjon and yet in line 138 he refers to 2 marriages, neither being Donjon.
3.The Archivist at Powderham Castle has put forth the following -
......Athon, son of the Chatelain of Chateau Reynard
.........Joscelin de Courtenay m. Isabel de Montlhery
succeeded by brother Milo de Courtenay m. Ermengarde de Nevers
......Sir Reginald de Courtenay m. Hedwige de Donjon
....... Robert de Courtenay m. Mary, daughter of Redvers, 6th Earl of Devon
Since both Weis and Burke's Extinct Peerage seem to disagree with this -
what is the right pedigree?
Jen Herron
Alan B. Wilson
<and...@msn.com> wrote:
Europaische Stammtafeln iii, 629, and the essay on "Devon" in
Complete Peerage, iv, 308-338 (see esp. chart on p. 317) agree on the
following descent:
1. Joscelin de Courtenay, fl 1065, m2 Elizabeth de Monthléry
2. Miles de Courtenay, fl 1127, m2 Ermengarde de Nevers
3. Renaud de Courtenay, d. 1189/90, m1 (Helvis) du Donjon,
m2 Maud, dau. of Robert FitzEdith, prob. d.s.p.
By first wife, ? du Donjon:
4. Renaud de Courtenay, d. 1194, m. Hawise de Courcy,
Lady of Okehampton
5. Robert de Courtenay of Okehampton, d. 1242, m. Mary de Vernon
6. John de Courtenay of Okehampton, d. 1274, m. Isabel de Vere
7. Sir Hugh de Courtenay of Okehampton, d. 1292, m. Eleanor Le Despencer
8. Hugh de Courtenay of Okehampton, Earl of Devon, d. 1340,
m. Agnes de St. John
A father of Joscelin, Athon (or Anthon) is mentioned in CP iii, 465,
and v, 317; in Visitations of Devon p. 243; and in other accounts of the
Courtenay family in France. Athon reportedly fortified the town of
Courtenay and assumed the surname.
--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink4.berkeley.edu
G . EDWARD ALLEN
Elizabeth who married Pierre of France and the Renaud of Sutton, Berks.
I am trying to find the source which clarifies this. Can anyone help me
out?
Kay Allen AG
G . EDWARD ALLEN
"Line 138 (Corrected by David Faris)
23. ERMENGARDE DE NEVERS (107:23); m. Milo (or Miles) de Courtenay. (See
a07-24 for their son Renaud de Courtenay, who in Ezra Cleveland's A
Genealogical History of the Noble and Illustrious Family of Courtenay
(1735), pp. 114-115, is identified as Reginald de Courtenay (No. 24
b3l0w). The story is told that the great possessions in France of Renaud
de Courtenay ( a man of high social rank and described in personal terms
as in effect a glorified bandit) were seized about 1150 by King Louis
VII who granted them to his own youngest brother, Pierre (ancestor of
the French Courtenays), with Renaud's daughter Elizabeth in marriage,
and that Renaud the appeared in England as a minor functionary of the
English Court with a small manor and another family. Line breaks here.
Although Old-CP III 102 states that the alleged connection between the
English and French families has not been established. CP IV 317
inexplicably revived the connection. Herbert F. Seversmith, The
Ancestors of Roger Ludlow, pp [illegible] in addition to demonstrating
the lack of contemporary evidence, points out the chronological,
personal character, and social status difficulties with this
identification.
***
24. RENAUD DE COURTENAY, b. ca 1125, d. Oct.-Dec. 1190; witness in 1150
at Rouen in Normandy of charter of Henry, duke of Normandy (later Henry
II of England); in 1160 received grant of manor of Sutton, co. Berks,
from the king; from that date in constant attendance on the king, perh.
a royal secretary; in 1171 accompanied the king in his campaign in
Ireland; appears holding land in Devon for first time 1175-1176; in the
king's train on his travels in England and France; m. (1) an identified
woman, mother of son Reginald; m. (2) after 1172 Maud, dau. Robert Fitz
Edith (illegitimate son of King1HENRY I (121-25) of England, by Edith,
dau. of Forn), by Maud (d'Averanches) de Courcy, widow of William de
Courcy, n.i. (Seversmith, op. cit.)"
Alan B. Wilson
ALLEN) wrote:
> I believe that there are two separate Renauds here: Renaud the father of
> Elizabeth who married Pierre of France and the Renaud of Sutton, Berks.
> I am trying to find the source which clarifies this. Can anyone help me
> out?
>
Abbreviating "de Courtenay" to "de C.":
(Helvis?) = (1) Renaud de C. (2) = Matilde Renuad FitzUrse
du Donjon | of Sutton (Berks) Fitz Robert of Bulwick
| | |
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹ ‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹ |
| | | |
Renaud de C. Elizabeth de C. Robert de C. (1) = Maud Fitz Urse
m. Hawise m. Pierre of Sutton of Bulwick
de Courcy of France d. 1209
of Okehampton
|
(as before)
This comes from ES iii, 629, as before. ES says it is uncertain
whether this Robert de Courtenay was son of Renaud's first or second
marriage.
Wagner, English Genealogy, pp. 38-39, comments on the the origins of
the English house: ". . . Renaud whose great possessions [in France] were
seized about 1150 by King Louis VII of France, who gave them to his own
son Peter to whom he married Renaud's daughter Elizabeth. . . . ."
"Renaud de Courtenay, expelled from France and leaving his daughter
there, came to England with his son and was granted Sutton in Berkeshire
(Sutton Courtenay) before 1161. His son Renaud (d. 1194) acquired lands
in Devon by a marriage with Hawise, lady of Okehampton . . . ."
Wagner does not mention another brother or half-brother of Renaud (d.
1194), Robert, who presumably was born later, perhaps in England, and
perhaps named after his grandfather Robert FitzEdith.
Sanders, English Baronies, p. 23, n. 1 says there is no evidenmce of
any connexion between this [Robert's] Courtenay family and that line which
were lords of Okehampton, Devon [i.e., the off-spring of Hawise de
Courcy].
But if Robert de Courtenay was indeed lord of Sutton in Berkshire, it
seems he would indeed be an heir of Renaud (d. 1189/90). Perhaps VCH
Berkshire could shed light.
G . EDWARD ALLEN
The one who is father of the matriarch of the French Courtenays and the
Renaud of Sutton, Berks. Elizabeth is NOT the sister of the Renaud of
Okehampton! Wagner has been known to be wrong. And ES is notorious for
its bungling of English lines.
Robert could be the elder. I can check VCH Berks. and see if it
clarifies this matter. Possibly there was a settlement as Renaud I of
Sutton had lands in the Southwest from about 1175/6. Perhaps the order
of the marriages is reversed. Possibly the mothers are reversed. I would
say some investigation would be in order.
However, I stand by the statement that there are two separate Renauds
in England and in France.
Jon Meltzer
(Alan B. Wilson) wrote:
>
> Wagner, English Genealogy, pp. 38-39, comments on the the origins of
>the English house: ". . . Renaud whose great possessions [in France] were
>seized about 1150 by King Louis VII of France, who gave them to his own
>son Peter to whom he married Renaud's daughter Elizabeth. . . . ."
> "Renaud de Courtenay, expelled from France and leaving his daughter
>there, came to England with his son and was granted Sutton in Berkeshire
>(Sutton Courtenay) before 1161. His son Renaud (d. 1194) acquired lands
>in Devon by a marriage with Hawise, lady of Okehampton . . . ."
> Wagner does not mention another brother or half-brother of Renaud (d.
>1194), Robert, who presumably was born later, perhaps in England, and
>perhaps named after his grandfather Robert FitzEdith.
>
Wagner corrected this statement to "more evidence is needed for the
identification" in the second edition of _EG_, citing Seversmith.
William Addams Reitwiesner
>Weis 7th ed. note bene, 7th ed.:
>
>"Line 138 (Corrected by David Faris)
>
>23. ERMENGARDE DE NEVERS (107:23); m. Milo (or Miles) de Courtenay. (See
>a07-24 for their son Renaud de Courtenay, who in Ezra Cleveland's A
>Genealogical History of the Noble and Illustrious Family of Courtenay
>(1735), pp. 114-115, is identified as Reginald de Courtenay (No. 24
>b3l0w). The story is told that the great possessions in France of Renaud
>de Courtenay ( a man of high social rank and described in personal terms
>as in effect a glorified bandit) were seized about 1150 by King Louis
>VII who granted them to his own youngest brother, Pierre (ancestor of
>the French Courtenays), with Renaud's daughter Elizabeth in marriage,
>and that Renaud the appeared in England as a minor functionary of the
>English Court with a small manor and another family. Line breaks here.
>Although Old-CP III 102 states that the alleged connection between the
>English and French families has not been established. CP IV 317
>inexplicably revived the connection. Herbert F. Seversmith, The
>Ancestors of Roger Ludlow, pp [illegible] in addition to demonstrating
>the lack of contemporary evidence, points out the chronological,
>personal character, and social status difficulties with this
>identification.
For those who would like to follow up on the disconnection of the English
Courtenays from the French Courtenays, the correct citation is Herbert
Furman Seversmith, *Colonial Families of Long Island, New York and
Connecticut*, of which only the first five (continuously paginated) volumes
appeared. Volume 5 contains (part of) the ancestry of Roger Ludlow.
Seversmith's argument in support of the Courtenay disconnection is on pp.
2419-2424 of Volume 5.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."