JAMES TUCHET, 5TH LORD AUDLEY
Allen John Mallory
Plantagenet Ancestry (2nd ed) gives Elizabeth Stafford, and Magna Charta Sureties (5th ed) gives Isabel (??). Both agree that James' father was Sir John Tuchet, Knt., 2nd Lord Tuchet (1371-1408).
Allen John Mallory
Danbury, Connecticut
allen....@snet.net
Albert B. Bach
Charlemagne connection. Google wouldn't let me reply directly.
Anyway, you can get from James Touchet to Charlemagne:
The ancestors of James Touchet, Lord Audley, Ela Longespee married
James de Aldithley, the Longespees descend from the the Angevin
Counts, they from the Vermandois Counts, they from Pippin Quentin, he
the greatgrandson of Charlemagne.
allen....@snet.net (Allen John Mallory) wrote in message news:<000701c1d9ed$048583e0$4f47fea9@ccqn801>...
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post.
In answer to your question, the wife of John Tuchet, Knt., 4th Lord
Audley, was Elizabeth Stafford, a hitherto unidentified daughter of
Humphrey Stafford, Knt., of Amblecote, Bramshall, and Perton, co.
Stafford, by his lst wife, Alice, daughter and heiress of John
Grenville, Knt. Elizabeth Stafford has Carolingian ancestry through
her paternal grandmother, Margaret (Stafford) Stafford, who was a
daughter of Ralph Stafford, lst Earl of Stafford, by his lst wife,
Katherine Hastang.
Complete Peerage sub Audley states that John Tuchet's wife's given was
Isabel, but the records I have found of this woman all call her
Elizabeth. This includes her assignment of dower and her inquisition
post mortem. Exactly why the editor picked the name Isabel is a
complete mystery to me.
Below please find a record of John Tuchet, Knt., and his wife,
Elizabeth Stafford, which is taken from my forthcoming book,
Plantagenet Ancestry, 3rd edition. For those interested in purchasing
a copy of the book, they may contact me privately at my e-mail address
below. The book will feature new ancestry for virtually all colonial
immigrants with English royal ancestry. It is presently available at
a special prepublication price of $60.00 for domestic orders and
$65.00 for overseas orders.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - -
I. JOHN TUCHET, Knt., of Ashwell, Markeaton, Leegomery, etc., and
Buglawton and Newhall, co. Chester, Keeper of Llandovery Castle,
Keeper of Brecknock Castle, son and heir, born 23 Apr. 1371. He was
co-heir in 1391 to his great-uncle, Nicholas Audley, 3rd Lord Audley,
by which he inherited a 1/3 share in the Audley barony, including the
Castle and lordship of Heleigh, co. Stafford, and the Castle and
lordship of Newport (in Camois), co. Pembroke. He married before 1398
ELIZABETH STAFFORD, daughter of Humphrey Stafford, Knt., of Amblecote,
Bramshall, and Perton, co. Stafford, by his 1st wife, Alice, daughter
and heiress of John Grenville, Knt., of Southwick. They had three
children, James [5th Lord Audley], Margaret (wife of John Luttrell),
and Elizabeth (wife of John Baskerville, Knt., of Eardisley, co.
Hereford). He was in the Welsh wars against Owen Glendower. He was
summoned to Parliament on 20 Oct. 1403 by writ directed Johanni
Tochet, and from 25 Aug. 1404 to 26 Aug. 1407 by writs directed
Johanni Tuchet. He was frequently styled Lord Audley in official
documents, although never summoned to Parliament as such. JOHN
TUCHET, 4th Lord Audley, died 19 Dec. 1408. In 1409 the King
requested that his widow’s brother, Humphrey Stafford the younger,
deliver her son and heir to his custody. In 1436 Thomas Stawell sued
Elizabeth, late the wife of John Tuchet, Knt., her son, James Tuchet,
Knt., her brother, John Stafford, Bishop of Bath and Wells, and
William Lee for the manors of Nether Stowey, Honeybare, etc.,
Somerset. She died 1446-7 (date of her Inq.p.m.).
References:
Ormerod 1 (1819): 489, 3: 23-24. Papal Letters, 1404-1415 (1904), pg.
16. C.P. 1 (1910): 340-341. Col. G.D. Stawell A Quantock Family
(1910), pp. 42-43. Genealogist n.s. 36 (1920): 9-22. Cal. Close
Rolls, 1405-1419 (1931), pp. 438,483. VCH Rutland 2 (1935): 108-109.
VCH Shropshire 8 (1968): 228-229. C.P. 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 60-61 (sub
Tuchet). VCH Shropshire 11 (1985): 219. Bodine (1995), pg. 31.
Genealogist n.s. 18: 26.
allen....@snet.net (Allen John Mallory) wrote in message news:<000701c1d9ed$048583e0$4f47fea9@ccqn801>...
Paul J Gans
>Dear Allen ~
>Thank you for your good post.
>In answer to your question, the wife of John Tuchet, Knt., 4th Lord
>Audley, was Elizabeth Stafford, a hitherto unidentified daughter of
>Humphrey Stafford, Knt., of Amblecote, Bramshall, and Perton, co.
>Stafford, by his lst wife, Alice, daughter and heiress of John
>Grenville, Knt. Elizabeth Stafford has Carolingian ancestry through
>her paternal grandmother, Margaret (Stafford) Stafford, who was a
>daughter of Ralph Stafford, lst Earl of Stafford, by his lst wife,
>Katherine Hastang.
[rest deleted]
Mr. Richardson:
We all sometimes end up crossposting without the intent to
do so, mostly thanks to that particular asocial person who
delights in doing it.
But right now you seem to be purposefully crossposting to
soc.history.medieval. We see only your posts, not the
posts to which you are ostensibly responding. Thus it
seems as if you are consciously changing the headers to
include soc.history.medieval.
This has happened a number of times in the past week or
two.
Please stop.
---- Paul J. Gans
D. Spencer Hines
Perhaps you want the good folks in SHM to see your posts on _The
Complete Peerage_, perhaps not.
But, post wherever you like, of course, and don't worry about the
anklebiters and little old schlockmeister Net-Nazi types, who will
always be with us.
They are best ignored.
As has been pointed out, Elizabeth Stafford and Sir John Tuchet have
some quite interesting kin and ancestors of historical interest to many.
Aloha,
Spencer
"One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no
ordinary man could be such a fool."
George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) [1903-1950] ---- _Notes on
Nationalism_, May, 1945
"Thrice they tried to pile Ossa on Pelion, yes, and roll up leafy
Olympus upon Ossa; thrice the Father of Heaven split the mountains apart
with his thunderbolt." Publius Vergilius Maro [Virgil] (70-19 B.C.),
Georgics, I, l. 281.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
---------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
Cristopher Nash
>Complete Peerage sub Audley states that John Tuchet's wife's given was
>Isabel, but the records I have found of this woman all call her
>Elizabeth. This includes her assignment of dower and her inquisition
>post mortem. Exactly why the editor picked the name Isabel is a
>complete mystery to me.
PMJI - just a minor point. As Douglas would be quick to say, seeking
either "Elizabeth" or "Isabel" in records down to the C17, we've all
learned it can be a good working rule always to watch invariably for
both. I can't offhand recall having seen many -- if any -- pairs of
siblings in a medieval document with one called Isabel and the other
Elizabeth, whereas with extreme frequency we find the same individual
given either name, interchangeably, in different documents. A
classic case -- since Douglas mentions that Elizabeth Stafford has
Carolingian ancestry -- is that of Isabel/Elizabeth de Vermandois.
I mention this only because I'd be sorry to see any substantial row
developing here (as we've seen elsewhere) over the different
'spellings' of what appears to be effectively one name. (Failing to
treat them as such can certainly lead to as much genealogical failure
as assuming that all same-spelled surnames refer to the same family;
i.e. each case needs to be dealt with in its own terms.) I think
this is a point in support of Douglas' Audley/Tuchet finding -- yes
Doug? I'd note, by the way, that Tuchet also appears commonly as
Touchet. It's an even more trivial point but -- since we're dealing
in a historical period when modern notions of conformity not only of
spelling but of naming would have been widely regarded as exotic, and
the matter of spelling seems significant for those highly dependent
on lightning-searches of indices (and is not a matter on which
evidential proof can be made to rest), and since not finding Tuchet
one may need to go through the ordeal of turning the page -- it may
as well be made.
Cris
--
Douglas Richardson
In my previous post, I neglected to give a list of the colonial
American immigrants who descend from Elizabeth Stafford, wife of John
Tuchet, Knt., 4th Lord Audley. They are as follows:
1. John Bevan.
2. Francis Dade.
3. Henry Fleete.
4. Percival Lowell.
5. Henry & William Randolph.
6. Hawte Wyatt.
Also I believe Thomas Owsley belongs on this list, as does probably
Maria Johanna Somerset.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.02040...@posting.google.com>...
leo van de pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 8:49 PM
Subject: Complete Peerage Correction: Elizabeth Stafford, wife of John
Tuchet, Knt.
> Dear Allen ~
>
> Thank you for your good post.
>
> In answer to your question, the wife of John Tuchet, Knt., 4th Lord
> Audley, was Elizabeth Stafford, a hitherto unidentified daughter of
> Humphrey Stafford, Knt., of Amblecote, Bramshall, and Perton, co.
> Stafford, by his lst wife, Alice, daughter and heiress of John
> Grenville, Knt. Elizabeth Stafford has Carolingian ancestry through
> her paternal grandmother, Margaret (Stafford) Stafford, who was a
> daughter of Ralph Stafford, lst Earl of Stafford, by his lst wife,
> Katherine Hastang.
>
I hesitate to suggest the possibility that Douglas Richardson just might
have made a mistake by his last observation. He gives Elizabeth Stafford as
parents Sir Humphrey Stafford and Alice Grenville. For Sir Humphrey he only
gives the name of his mother, Margaret Stafford. So far so good. He gives
Margaret as parents Ralph Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford, by his first wife,
Katherine Hastang.
My observation is that it might be the second wife who was the mother of
Margaret. By the way, Margaret was married to Sir John Stafford, of
Bramshall.
The Complete Peerage XII/1 gives Ralph married 1stly probably about 1326-7
Katharine, daughter of Sir John Hastang by Eve his wife; 2ndly before 6 July
1336 Margaret daughter and heir of Hugh (de Audley), Earl of Gloucester.
CP, of course, only gives sons, Ralph and Hugh, both by the second marriage.
Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 499 doesn't even mention Katharine
Hastang, and gives as children by Margaret de Audley
1.Ralph
2.Hugh
3.Beatrice married thrice
4.Joane
5.Elizabeth
6.Margaret married to Sir John Stafford
Now an obscure source, Count d'Angerville's "Living Descendants of Blood
Royal" (in America) Volume three,
page 60
1.Edward I
2.Joan
3.Margaret de Clare
4.Margaret Audley, died 1349, married Sir Ralph Stafford, Earl of Stafford
5.Margaret Stafford, married as his second wife Sir John Stafford, knt, of
Bramshall, Stafford
Another one
Jophe Foster, "Our Noble and Gentle Families of Royal Descent" published in
1884, page 22, also makes Margaret Stafford a daughter of Ralph, 1st Earl of
Stafford, by his second wife.
Now David Faris, Plantagenet Ancestry, 1st edition, page
6, this brings a problem.
Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl, had married previously Katherine de Hastang by
whom he had one (unnamed daughter) and by Margaret de Audley he had as
daughters
Elizabeth, Beatrice, Joan and Katherine. Only son Hugh is mentioned, not
Ralph. Was this unnamed daughter Margaret?
Let's go to Weiss "Ancestral Roots" seventh edition, page 35.
Line 32, generation 32
Sir Robert de Swynnerton, knt, died 1395, married Elizabeth Beke, daughter
of Sir Nicholas Beke and Jane (Joan) de Stafford, daughter of Sir Ralph de
Stafford and Katharine de Hastang. Well, this supplies the unnamed
daughter, where does that leave Margaret? In the same book, page 60, line
55, generation 33.
Here is Margaret given as 4th daughter by the 1st wife, Katharine de
Hastang.
Full circle. Are the daughters mentioned by Faris to be distributed amongst
the two wives? Or how many more daughters did Ralph, 1st Earl of Stafford,
have? And by which wife? Faris tells that Katherine de Hastang only had one
daughter and Weiss tells us at least four.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
John Steele Gordon
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5cf47a19.02040...@posting.google.com...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> In my previous post, I neglected to give a list of the colonial
> American immigrants who descend from Elizabeth Stafford, wife of John
> Tuchet, Knt., 4th Lord Audley. They are as follows:
>
> 1. John Bevan.
>
> 2. Francis Dade.
>
> 3. Henry Fleete.
>
> 4. Percival Lowell.
>
> 5. Henry & William Randolph.
>
> 6. Hawte Wyatt.
>
> Also I believe Thomas Owsley belongs on this list, as does probably
> Maria Johanna Somerset.
Yes:
John Tuchet, Lord Audley = Elizabeth Stafford
Elizabeth Tuchet = John Baskerville
Sir James Baskerville = --------- Devereux
Sir Walter Baskerville = Elizabeth Parry
Thomas Baskerville = Maud ferch Richard Hir
Walter Baskerville = Jane Mornington
Walter Baskerville = Mary [or Frances] Gage
Walter Baskerville = Judith Vaughan
Catherine Baskerville = Charles Somerset
Maria Johanna Somerset
JSG
Kay Allen AG
matter is still under review.
Kay Allen AG
Douglas Richardson
Thanks for posting the new Baskerville descent from Elizabeth
(Stafford) Tuchet down to Maria Johanna Somerset. Much appreciated.
Maria is surely in the running for possessing the best combinatation
of ancestry among all the colonial immigrants. Her ancestry
crisscrosses almost the entire Plantagenet Ancestry manuscript.
Maria's nearest competitors, Dorothy (Stapleton) Nelson and Muriel
(Gurdon) Saltonstall, definitely give her a run for the money, though.
Dorothy gained ground this year with the discovery of her new
connection to the Neville family. Muriel lost one of her long
established Edward III's descents but picked up a new Edward I. All
these women have facinating ancestry.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
"John Steele Gordon" <ance...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<UJEq8.121387$u77.28...@news02.optonline.net>...
leo van de pas
John Steele Gordon wrote :
> John Tuchet, Lord Audley = Elizabeth Stafford
> Elizabeth Tuchet = John Baskerville
> Sir James Baskerville = --------- Devereux
> Sir Walter Baskerville = Elizabeth Parry
> Thomas Baskerville = Maud ferch Richard Hir
> Walter Baskerville = Jane Mornington
> Walter Baskerville = Mary [or Frances] Gage
> Walter Baskerville = Judith Vaughan
> Catherine Baskerville = Charles Somerset
> Maria Johanna Somerset
>
> JSG
>
By comparing sources all kinds of discrepancies appear.
For instance, Gerald Paget makes Elizabeth Touchet a daughter of the 6th
Lord Audley, placing her two generations lower, but chronologically that
seems wrong., as Walter Baskerville is recorded as having been born before
1459 (See Paget Ancestors and Relatives of Prince Charles, P57741). Let's
say his father was about 15 when he was born, being then born before 1444
that would make John Touchet, 6th Lord Audley, a grandfather when aged about
24. However, Paget, under Q115482, gives the first name of NN Devereux, he
calls her Sybil Devereux, daughter of Walter Devereux of Bodenham, by
Elizabeth, daughter of John Merbury, Justice of South Wales.
Now comes another contradiction, Burke's Landed Gentry, 1937, Page 111
covers the Baskerville family. Here NN Devereux is called Katherine daughter
of Walter Devereux, Lord Ferrers of Chartley, lineally descended from Edward
I.
This article shows no light on John Touchet, 4th or 6th Lord Audley, as
Elizabeth is only mentioned as daughter of John Touchet, Lord Audley.
However, the dates for Elizabeth's husband seem to confirm the link with the
4th Lord as Sir John Baskerville was born 12 February 1403 and died 23
December 1455 and his brother-in-law, James, 5th Lord Audley, was born circa
1398.
This article throws up another question. John Steele Gordon gives Elizabeth
Parry as wife of Sir Walter Baskerville,
Kay Allen points out it could be Elsbeth ferch Morgan.
Burke's landed Gentry gives two wives for Sir Walter,
Anne daughter of Morgan ap Jenkin ap Philip, of Pencoyd,
and second wife Elizabeth daughter of Henry ap Milo ap Harry of Poston.
Sadly, Sir Walter's son Thomas (by the first wife) is only recorded as
Thomas, of Pontrilas, without any further details.
Can anyone throw any further light on these discrepancies?
Kay Allen AG
leo van de pas wrote:
> John Steele Gordon wrote :
>
> > John Tuchet, Lord Audley = Elizabeth Stafford
> > Elizabeth Tuchet = John Baskerville
> > Sir James Baskerville = --------- Devereux
> > Sir Walter Baskerville = Elizabeth Parry
> > Thomas Baskerville = Maud ferch Richard Hir
> > Walter Baskerville = Jane Mornington
> > Walter Baskerville = Mary [or Frances] Gage
> > Walter Baskerville = Judith Vaughan
> > Catherine Baskerville = Charles Somerset
> > Maria Johanna Somerset
> >
> > JSG
> >
> By comparing sources all kinds of discrepancies appear.
> For instance, Gerald Paget makes Elizabeth Touchet a daughter of the 6th
> Lord Audley, placing her two generations lower, but chronologically that
> seems wrong.,
As you know, Leo, I am not a great fan of Paget's.
> as Walter Baskerville is recorded as having been born before
> 1459 (See Paget Ancestors and Relatives of Prince Charles, P57741).
I show Sir Walter born about 1462.
The Devereux are messy and need to have more work done on them then really has
been done.
> Let's
> say his father was about 15 when he was born, being then born before 1444
> that would make John Touchet, 6th Lord Audley, a grandfather when aged about
> 24. However, Paget, under Q115482, gives the first name of NN Devereux, he
> calls her Sybil Devereux, daughter of Walter Devereux of Bodenham, by
> Elizabeth, daughter of John Merbury, Justice of South Wales.
I have Walter's father, James, born about 1436. James' father, John, was born,
I show, in 1408, but this may have been a typo in my source. Elizabeth
Touchet's father was b. 1371 and d. 1408, so Elizabeth would have been an
infant at his death. So this chronology works.
>
>
> Now comes another contradiction, Burke's Landed Gentry, 1937, Page 111
> covers the Baskerville family. Here NN Devereux is called Katherine daughter
> of Walter Devereux, Lord Ferrers of Chartley, lineally descended from Edward
Unfortunately, another source, I abhore. I am more inclined to show James'
wife as Sibylla dtr. of Sir Walter and Elizabeth Merbury.
>
>
>
> This article shows no light on John Touchet, 4th or 6th Lord Audley, as
> Elizabeth is only mentioned as daughter of John Touchet, Lord Audley.
> However, the dates for Elizabeth's husband seem to confirm the link with the
> 4th Lord as Sir John Baskerville was born 12 February 1403 and died 23
> December 1455 and his brother-in-law, James, 5th Lord Audley, was born circa
> 1398.
>
> This article throws up another question. John Steele Gordon gives Elizabeth
> Parry as wife of Sir Walter Baskerville,
> Kay Allen points out it could be Elsbeth ferch Morgan.
> Burke's landed Gentry gives two wives for Sir Walter,
> Anne daughter of Morgan ap Jenkin ap Philip, of Pencoyd,
> and second wife Elizabeth daughter of Henry ap Milo ap Harry of Poston.
Let's leave Burke alone on this and just leave it that it is currently under
investigation.
>
>
> Sadly, Sir Walter's son Thomas (by the first wife) is only recorded as
> Thomas, of Pontrilas, without any further details.
Even Rev. Robinson contradicts himself on which wife was Thomas' mother. This
is still up for grabs.
>
> Can anyone throw any further light on these discrepancies?
I hope this helps some. I have ordered wills that I hope will shed more light
on the accuracy
and timing of this pedigree.
Kay Allen AG