King George IV - children 1
Leo
On 15 December 1785 they went through a ceremony which was of questionable validity. Did it render George's marriage to Caroline of Brunswick bigamous?
Apparently his marriage to Caroline did not end the relationship between George and Maria Fitzherbert. Apparently their relationship ended in 1811. This gives a relationship lasting some 26 years.
Did they have children? According to Wikipedia : "Some scholars have suggested that Maria Fitzherbert had one, possibly two, children with George IV. In 1833, after the king's death, one of his executors, Lord Stourton, asked her to sign a declaration he had written on the back of her marriage certificate. It read: "I Mary Fitzherbert, testify that my union with George, prince of Wales was without issue". According to Stourton, she, smiling, objected, on the score of delicacy.
One suggested offspring is James Ord, born 1786, who moved to the United States and became a Jesuit priest. No evidendence to back this up was found.
In her will she made a codicil, outlining her two principal beneficiaries, and includes a personal note "this is addressed to my two dear children".
These two were Mrs. Mary Ann Stafford-Jerningham, who had grown up as Mary Ann Smythe; (I could not find any details about her) and Mrs. Mary Georgiana Emma Dawson-Damer.
Mary Georgiana Emma is on record as born 23 November 1798 daughter of Lord Hugh Seymour and Anna Horatia Waldegrave. Lord Hugh Seymour was very close to George IV.
Apart from Maria Fitzherbert's note, no suggestion exists that she was the mother of these two.
Maria died in 1837 when Mary Georgiana Emma was 39 years old, would Maria refer to her only affectionaly as a dear child?
As is to be expected, the secrecy involved gives room for rumours about other children of George IV and Maria Fitzherbert. Many years ago I was told, without specific details, that a son of George IV and Maria had been brought up by Maria's brother and once grown up, shipped out to Tasmania in the possession of great wealth.
Then there is a possible Capt. George Frederick Read, all I know about him is that he married twice.
George IV's brother, King William IV acknowledged all his children by Mrs. Jordan, but then that relationship was very different. At that time he was not expected to become king, nor had he gone through a form of marriage. If the marriage of George IV and Maria Fitzherbert had been accepted legally, that would have removed George as heir to his father because Maria Fitzherbert was a Catholic. If the marriage had been legal and not removed George as heir, his marriage to Caroline would be bigamously and their daughter Charlotte illegitimate.
Can anyone add anything to this?
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
Hovite
> As is to be expected, the secrecy involved
Why would there be any secret? In this period, children were openly
acknowledged.
George IV had two children.
Mrs FitzHerbert had no children. She was a well known public figure,
and a pregnancy could not have gone unnoticed.
http://history.buses.co.uk/history/fleethist/805mf.htm
http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/page_id__7540_path__0p224p1218p.aspx
amy.fit...@gmail.com
I do have more information regarding this matter but am curious, what is your interest? Is there a more private media or an email that I could use to reach you?
ianmcdon...@gmail.com
John Watson
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/read-george-frederick-2576
Regards,
John
merilyn...@internode.on.net
How interesting that this post appears at this time.
George Frederick Read was my 3 X great grandfather and there has
always been a strong family legend that he was the son of George IV
and Maria fitz Herbert. I asked a male descendant to have a DNA test a
couple of years ago, and then set about trying to find a male
descendant of the Hanovarian line to take the test to prove (or
otherwise) the link Unfortunately I have been unable to find such a
person, so the family legend remains just that.
When my grandmother and her family went to England in 1905 they tried
to find records to confirm the story, but my grandmother told me in
about 1956 that every record they consulted had had the relevant page
torn out.
A cousin who inherited a prayer book belonging to George Read donated
it to St. David's Church in Hobart. It apparently contains a royal
cypher (whatever that is).
Below is a short biography from my records"
BIOGRAPHY OF GEORGE FREDERICK READ, BY H.C.C. LANGDON
Read, George Frederick (1788-1860), merchant, settler and banker, was
born on 29 September 1788 in London. He went to sea when 11 and was
probably engaged in the East India Co.'s maritime service until 1808.
Later he recorded in his journal that he visited the Derwent
settlement that year and again in 1812, but was irritated by having
his cargo commandeered and his crew placed on rations. He is believed
to have brought the first merchant vessel through Torres Strait, and
he continued to trade between Hobart Town, Sydney, Batavia, Calcutta
and China.
In May 1814 as master and part-owner of the "Amelia", a Brig built
in Bombay and registered in Calcutta of some 80 tons, 2 guns and a
crew of 20, he brought tea, sugar, rum and tobacco from Calcutta to
Sydney and returned with wine and whale oil. When the "Amelia"
returned to Sydney from Calcutta in 1815 it was under the command of
Capt. Sam Shaw. It is recorded in the Rev. Knopwood's Diary of June
1815 that the "Lynx" arrived in Hobart from Sydney carrying flour and
horses. In 1816-18 he made voyages between Sydney, the Derwent,
Batavia and Calcutta in his brig "Lynx". By July 1818 the "Lynx" was
under the command of Capt. Siddins who eventually purchased the
vessel. In 1816 he was granted a town allotment in Sydney and a grant
of 500 acres in the country, but he suffered from asthma and in June
1818 moved to Hobart in the brig "Sophia" which arrived on July 11
under the command of Capt. James Kelly. His wife and son arrived in
the "Jupiter" on 11th October that year under the command of Capt.
Ainsworth.
He transferred his merchant establishment there and later formed
partnerships with W.A. Bethune and Charles McLachlan. In 1819 he was
granted 800 acres at Redlands, Plenty, and four government servants.
In 1822 he built a stone warehouse on Hunter's Island facing
Sullivan's Cove (the old wharf) and was appointed a magistrate. He was
one of the original proprietors of the Bank of Van Diemen's Land and
its managing director from 1827 to 1849, living for some time in a
'comfortably fixed' villa on the Derwent. In 1829 he resumed the
former business of Read & Bethune, and from then until 1852 acted as
agent for John Ingle.
He took a very considerable part in the development of the young
colony, not least in its maritime industries, was one of the most
important men in its formative years and contributed greatly to the
community's welfare. He had interests in several ships trading to
India, China and the Philippines, in which his third son, Henry
(1828-1894), made several voyages as supercargo, and his ships took
part in sealing and whaling. He was a good practical farmer, grew fine
wheat, made bricks and helped to establish the salmon ponds at
Redlands. He had other properties: Ivanhoe and Kinvarra, in the
Plenty-New Norfolk district, Seton near Tuesday, October 07, 2008 Page
6 of 31 Richmond, and Thornhill near Sorell. He also had a
three-storied stone tea-warehouse in Salamanca Place, Hobart, other
Hobart town property, and city sections bought at Melbourne's first
land sale. He was versatile, enterprising and far-sighted.
Lieut-Governor Sorell spoke highly of him, made him an assessor in the
Lieut-Governor's Court and in 1822 appointed him a magistrate;
however, he fell out with Lieut-Governor Arthur, protested against
licensing the press, and was removed from the magistracy.
In 1816 at St Philip's Sydney, he married Elizabeth Driver; they had
one son, G.F. Read junior (1817-1854), a pioneer at Port Phillip, and
two daughters. His wife died on 19 August 1821, and on 24 November
1824 at St David's Hobart, he married Margaret (1800-1889), daughter
of John Terry, a flour-miller of New Norfolk. By his second marriage
he had six sons and four daughters. He died at his home, Leyburne, New
Town, on 23 July 1860. Several of his letters to John Ingle were
published under the title "Tasmanian Letters 1824- 1852 (Christchurch,
1945).
http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A020320b.htm
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Kelsey Jackson Williams
All the best,
Kelsey Jackson Williams
http://scottishgenealogy.weebly.com/
Monica Kanellis
George III and another an unnamed son of Queen Victoria, possibly Arthur).
I wonder if it would be feasible to tease out more of these, collect them,
and follow them up?
best,
Monica
> You can find the Australian Dictionary of Biography entry for George
> Frederick Read here, which strangely fails to mention that he was the son
> of the Prince Regent. I wonder why?
> http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/read-george-frederick-2576
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
Bronwen Edwards
> I've come across a couple of such stories in my own digging. (one involving
>
> George III and another an unnamed son of Queen Victoria, possibly Arthur).
>
> I wonder if it would be feasible to tease out more of these, collect them,
>
> and follow them up?
Bronwen
jhigg...@yahoo.com
> I would be really enthusiastic if someone were able to do that. I assume that all of us on this list have such "family legends" and that they are of varying degrees of likelihood. Elizabeth I and Black Thomas, 10th Earl of Ormond, comes to mind (as well as the other candidates for fathering her child, if there was one). Also, among lesser aristocracy, the Bishop of London & the Colonies, Henry Compton, whose alleged affair left Comptons in the Colonies. There are a great many scandals to unravel, if anyone can. In an earlier post, mention was made of documentary pages being "torn out"; I wonder if that was a literal statement with evidence that strategic pages were actually torn out, or if it was not to be taken literally. In one of the above cases I mention, there is a widespread account that documentary evidence was burnt in the presence of Queen Victoria who had demanded that it be done after being presented with it.
>
> Bronwen
I have a friend with the surname of Compton who has always been intrigued by the possibility of a connection to this Compton family, but has been realistic enough to recognize that such a connection is unlikely - or at least not (yet?) supportable. His Compton immigrant ancestor (and his earliest known Compton ancestor) is at least a generation earlier than the Bishop and thus probably not connected, but I'd be interested to hear about "Comptons in the Colonies".
merilyn...@internode.on.net
Hi Kelsey
Thanks for your interest.
What my grandmother told me was that "all the pages had been torn
out". I assume that this was meant literally, but I can't know for
sure at this stage. Suffice it to say that she and many other
members of the family have sought to validate this claim, but so far
the truth remains elusive!
There is another interesting twist to this story. George Frederick
Read's first wife was Elizabeth Driver, and it is only in the last 15
years or so that it became known through the research of yet another
cousin, that Elizabeth Driver was the daughter of a First Fleet
convict, Elizabeth Needham (nee Gore) and her Second Fleet convict 3rd
husband, John Driver. Thus if the legend is true it would give
George and Elizabeth Read's children royal grandparents on one side
and convicts on the other - a very Australian state of affairs!
But even stranger, is the revelation, even more recently
discovered, that Elizabeth Gore was brought up in the home of Lady
Charlotte Finch, who was governess to the children (including George
IV) of George III. Her father was coachman to Lady Finch. If an
unacceptable child was born to George IV and Maria fitzHerbert, who
better to find a home for it but George's old governess? The fact
that the child of George IV (George Frederick Read) married the child
((Elizabeth Driver) of the convict Elizabeth Needham nee Gore seems
like either a huge coincidence or a clever solution to a problem.
Elizabeth Needham (the convict) may very well have known that her new
son-in-law was the son of George IV since her father was the Finch
coachman who may have been privy to family discussions.
In the book "Founders of Australia" there is a very good biography of
Elizabeth Needham written by Mollie Gillen.
Is there any way of finding a Hanovarian descendant willing to take a
DNA test?
Best wishes
Merilyn
Another consideration is that according to the Church, but not the
State, George IV and Maria fitzHerbert were married, so a child of
that union would be more problematical than an illegitimate one.
I still believe that the only way to validate this legend is to find
the DNA results for a Hanovarian descendant and compare it to a Read
male descendant.
Merilyn
> between George and Maria Fitzherbert Apparently their relationship
Bronwen Edwards
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:46:11 PM UTC-8, Bronwen Edwards wrote:
>
>
>
> > I would be really enthusiastic if someone were able to do that. I assume that all of us on this list have such "family legends" and that they are of varying degrees of likelihood. Elizabeth I and Black Thomas, 10th Earl of Ormond, comes to mind (as well as the other candidates for fathering her child, if there was one). Also, among lesser aristocracy, the Bishop of London & the Colonies, Henry Compton, whose alleged affair left Comptons in the Colonies. There are a great many scandals to unravel, if anyone can. In an earlier post, mention was made of documentary pages being "torn out"; I wonder if that was a literal statement with evidence that strategic pages were actually torn out, or if it was not to be taken literally. In one of the above cases I mention, there is a widespread account that documentary evidence was burnt in the presence of Queen Victoria who had demanded that it be done after being presented with it.
>
> >
>
> > Bronwen
>
>
>
> Can you expand a bit on Henry Compton, Bishop of London "whose alleged affair left Comptons in the Colonies"? Has this affair and the supposed colonial Comptons been written up somewhere?
>
All of the above is really just to demonstrate that the legend has become quite widespread and is believed by any number of wishful thinkers. As actual evidence does not seem to exist for this descent from Henry, I take the position that it is probably not true. There may be something of interest in looking at the progeny of Henry's brother, John, especially if the adoption story is accurate.
Finally, this subject came up on this list in 2007 where Leo noted "...Dictionary of National Biography has some interesting details to add, here his life span is given as 1632-1713. And a deliciously infuriating observation 'it is usually stated that Compton never married'. I glanced quickly through the biography and may have overlooked the mentioning of an illegitimate child."
As for Comptons in the colonies generally, this is a huge topic. If you google Compton genealogy, you will find a gazillion hits. Best, Bronwen
I have seen similar accounts seeded throughout various family trees, none of them supplying authoritative documentation. The short biography given on his page in the "Find-a-Grave" website says that he *adopted* his 2nd cousin, John Compton, after his father, another John, died. I assume that if they were 2nd cousins, this John Compton was Henry's brother (with the same pedigree, of course). There is no evidence that I have seen, however, linking the younger John Compton to the colonial Comptons in North America. As for opportunity to hide a secret marriage/liaison, "he (Henry Compton) retreated to Castle Ashby and lived for two years in a secret part of the castle, now known as the Bishop's Rooms" (Camelot International: Britain's Heritage and History", www.camelotintl.com, 18 June 2007).
Kelsey Jackson Williams
"He never married, despite occasional gossip that he would. His household became a sort of surrogate family to him and he inspired great loyalty among his chaplains."
Monica Kanellis
worth stashing them away in an archive of remote possibles. There must be
quite a few out there, though proving anything would be difficult. I'm
quite curious to find out how many other rumoured royal bastards are out
there.
There was a maidservant who worked at Osborne house in the Isle of Wight
who married into the family after having an illegitimate child widely
rumoured to be fathered by one of Victoria's sons. Certainly my great great
aunt seems to have believed the story. But so far as I know, the mother
never divulged the father's name. I have no photograph of him, but was sent
one of his son who (I was told) was still alive a few years ago when it was
sent. No idea how he would feel about having a DNA test if still alive now.
Another one is solely based on this comment in link below
Children of JOHN BENNETT and HESTER SMITH are:
i. JENEVORAH10 BENNETT, b. 1753; d. 26 Oct 1812; m. ARTHUR WILLIAMS, 09 Sep
1778, Salisbury, St.
Thomas; b. Salisbury; d. Mar 1831, Salisbury.
Notes for JENEVORAH BENNETT:
Jenevora was an intimate “friend” of King George III; “John Hammond who as
a young man knew the eldest
Williams son as a very old man said he greatly resembled the King.” [John
Wyatt]
[College of Arms]
http://www.ashlockfamily.com/project1_docs/bennettfamily_excel.pdf
There's also Catherine Sedley whose daughter by James II (according to
Wikipedia), Lady Catherine Darnley married James Annesley (with a child,
Catherine Annesley, ancestress of the Barons Mulgrave [Phipps]).
best
Monica
Kelsey Jackson Williams
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/ZSAYQ6NTRuw/DHol2CvLcjUJ
This is, of course, a subjective response, but I can't help but feel that the *vast* majority of these stories must be untrue. It seems really quite implausible that so many illegitimate children of relatively recent royalty would be unknown to historians of the period, but known to their individual families. I don't deny that that might occasionally be the case, but it does strike me that many of these accounts sound suspiciously like wishful thinking. All of which, I suppose, only increases the importance of DNA testing in such areas.
On Wednesday, 18 December 2013 17:57:21 UTC, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=iAjgWe0cSdQC&pg=PA434&dq=%22louisa+maria%22+godfrey+macdonald&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4d6xUtyiA9HLkAeCwYDAAg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBDgU#v=onepage&q=%22louisa%20maria%22%20godfrey%20macdonald&f=false
leslie...@gmail.com
> Louisa Maria La Coast has been discussed before in 2011 (as have, it turns out, even more Australian bastards or would-be-bastards):
>
>
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/ZSAYQ6NTRuw/DHol2CvLcjUJ
>
>
>
> This is, of course, a subjective response, but I can't help but feel that the *vast* majority of these stories must be untrue. It seems really quite implausible that so many illegitimate children of relatively recent royalty would be unknown to historians of the period, but known to their individual families. I don't deny that that might occasionally be the case, but it does strike me that many of these accounts sound suspiciously like wishful thinking. All of which, I suppose, only increases the importance of DNA testing in such areas.
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Kelsey Jackson Williams
>
> http://scottishgenealogy.weebly.com/
>
Anthony Camp, Member of the Society of Genealogists, for over
50 years.
Just by looking through this one segment, you can see that
most of the claims are fictitious:
http://anthonyjcamp.com/page7.htm
Leslie
tonyh...@gmail.com
He was also buried with a locket containing a photo of Mrs Fitzherbert.
Apparently, when George's brother became King, the very first thing he did was travel to Brighton to see Mrs Fitzherbert. He offered to make her a Duchess and said she could use the Royal livery - she refused both offers saying that as she had not been recognised during George's life, she would not accept the recognition after his death.
There is a family in the USA who caim direct descent. I'll see if I can find the link.
Tony James
Derbyshire
Tony H
> It seems really quite implausible that so many illegitimate children of relatively recent royalty would be unknown to historians of the period, but known to their individual families.
>
Tony H
> What my grandmother told me was that "all the pages had been torn
> out". I assume that this was meant literally, but I can't know for
> sure at this stage. Suffice it to say that she and many other
> members of the family have sought to validate this claim, but so far
> the truth remains elusive!
>
In fact they were still "removing" them from the National Archives as late as 1935 !
http://archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/26th-march-1981/8/george-iv-letters-were-removed
Surely, something fishy?
Leo van de Pas
came to that number? Or just a general "George III had 65 illegitimate
grandchildren?" But I understand that the unfortunate pregnant women were
often made to marry someone and the child passed off as the husband's. I
believe that no records were made and in those days it was not talked about
in general and a lot of knowledge has been lost, only 'family traditions'
remained.
65 grandchildren?.....would any of George III's daughters have had children?
A very messy situation. At least in medieval times people were proud to be
the bastard of a royal personage.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
-----Original Message-----
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To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: King George IV - children 1
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W David Samuelsen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A3_das_Caldeiras#Background
Many of the inhabitants of Ch�, with their light skin, blond hair, and
blue eyes, trace their ancestry back to the biologically prolific Count
of Montrond (France). Population is around 1,000 in this community.
David
Tony H
> 65 illegitimate grandchildren seems a lot. Does that book explain how they
>
> came to that number? Or just a general "George III had 65 illegitimate
>
> grandchildren?"
According to Wikipedia there were 56 illegits - so maybe I mis-read the figure ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descendants_of_George_III_and_Charlotte_of_Mecklenburg-Strelitz
rupertde...@gmail.com
wjhonson
> AMAZING I believe I am his 5X Great Grandson through direct lineage of eldest sons
> I have recently found out, I share a name with a certain Henry Edward Beaumont Read to whom "Beaumont Read" (myself)
> Grandson to Bill Read author of an article in issue 15 of the marine time times Tasmania under Read connection to the crown
> not quite sure if Henry Edward Beaumont Read was George Frederick Reads son or Grandson
Have you taken an autosomal DNA test?
pj.ev...@gmail.com
[snip]
> AMAZING I believe I am his 5X Great Grandson through direct lineage of eldest sons
> I have recently found out, I share a name with a certain Henry Edward Beaumont Read to whom "Beaumont Read" (myself)
> Grandson to Bill Read author of an article in issue 15 of the marine time times Tasmania under Read connection to the crown
> not quite sure if Henry Edward Beaumont Read was George Frederick Reads son or Grandson