Gorm's children and grandchildren
Leo van de Pas
I know it is not Dutch but the word is very close to a Dutch word 'gammel'
which means rickety/infirm.......nothing to do with age. Perhaps someone
better versed in old Danish can come up with an explanation?
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Todd A. Farmerie <ta...@po.cwru.edu>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Gorm's children and grandchildren
> sba...@mindspring.com (Stewart Baldwin) wrote:
>
> > Having recently presented a detailed account of the earliest sources
> > for Gorm of Denmark (called "the Old" in much later sources, but I am
> > going to try and avoid using that anachronistic epithet),
>
> I am not sure it is any more anachronistic than Edward 'the
> Elder'. I have seen it proposed that 'the Old' was not
> intended to indicate age, but was instead traditionally
> assigned to the founder of a dinasty. If this is the case,
> then the obscene ages assigned to some of these people may
> result from later historians misinterpreting the nickname.
>
> taf
>
>
> > Harald, king of Denmark, d. 1 Nov. 986,
> > m1 Gunhild m2 Tove
> > Children by Gunhild:
> > 1. Erik, king of Northumbria, d. 950/4
> > (2 ch: Henrik, Reginald)
>
> I had heard that this theory was floating around, but of
> course most sources make the Northumbrian Erik Norse, the
> son of Harald 'Fairhair' and brother-in-law of King Harold
> of Denmark. I seem to recall recently seeing that this
> solution - placing Eric as Danish, could be refuted. I will
> have to see if I can find it again. I think this was the
> same article that argued (convincingly, in my opinion) that
> the chronology of Northumberland had been confused - that
> Erik being expelled, replaced by Olaf, then returning to be
> expelled and replaced by Olaf again is just a replication of
> the same single event from two different chronicles, one of
> which had slipped three years vs. the actual year date.
>
> > 2. Hakon Haraldsen af Denmark, d. 987?
> > 3. Svend I, king of Denmark, d. 1014
> > 4. Thyra Haraldsdatter
> > m1 Styrbjorn Olofsson (1 ch: Thorgils Sprakling)
>
> I have seen it written (unfortunately, I don't recall where)
> that Brenner gives Styrbjorn and Thyra only 1 child, a
> daughter, and that it is likely that the Thorgils connection
> is a later invention. If this is the case (that Brenner has
> only the daughter) I would tend to go with him over ES,
> which does sometimes accept the traditional connections
> without a good source (i.e. Haithabu).
>
> taf
>
>
Stewart Baldwin
for Gorm of Denmark (called "the Old" in much later sources, but I am
would be interesting to discuss the children who have generally been
assigned as members of the family trees of Gorm and his son Harald,
and see what kind of evidence there is for these children.
As a first step in discussing these children and grandchildren (real
and alleged), I think it would be to good to start with a list of the
claimed children of these two kings who have appeared in the standard
sources, plus any other serious candidates who have been suggested as
members of one of these two family groups. The most obvious starting
place would be Brenner's "Nachkommen Gorms des Alten", supplemented by
Schwennicke's "Europäische Stammtafeln" [ES]. Unfortunately, I do not
have access to either of those sources. However, there is a website,
http://www8.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/html/gorm.html
which lists descendants of Gorm, with Brenner's book listed as the
main source of information, and ES as another source. I have outlined
what that website says about the children of Gorm and Harald below.
The main questions I have at the moment (addressed to those who have
access to one of the two above sources) are:
1. How accurately does the outline below represent what is said about
the children of Gorm and Harald in those two sources (Brenner and
Schweniicke)? If it is a combination of those two sources, which
children are listed in which sources? Which wives are listed as the
mothers of which children in these two sources?
The other main question would be:
2. Do other sources mention other contenders for members of these two
family groups? (I can already add one such source here. The list of
rulers of the Isle of Man in the "New History of Ireland", vol. 9, p.
466 suggests that the Hebridean rulers Maccus and Gofraid "may have
been" the sons of Harald son of Gorm. Although I don't believe that
they should be included among the children of Harald of Denmark, I
think we ought to at least mention and discuss the contenders, even if
to only point out that they don't belong on the list.)
Here is the data taken from the above website (perhaps not accurate in
all cases):
Gorm, king of Denmark, d. 950, m. Thyra
Children:
1. Knud Danaast, d. 940
(one ch: Harald Knudsen, d. 965)
2. Harald, king of Denmark, d. 1 Nov. 986 (see below)
3. Gunhild m. Erik I of Norway (9 children listed)
4. Toke Gormsen, d. 985 Fyrisvall
(one ch: Asbjorn Tokeson, d. 985?/978)
Harald, king of Denmark, d. 1 Nov. 986,
m1 Gunhild m2 Tove
Children by Gunhild:
1. Erik, king of Northumbria, d. 950/4
(2 ch: Henrik, Reginald)
2. Hakon Haraldsen af Denmark, d. 987?
3. Svend I, king of Denmark, d. 1014
4. Thyra Haraldsdatter
m1 Styrbjorn Olofsson (1 ch: Thorgils Sprakling)
m2 Burislaw v. Wenden (1 ch: Gunhild v. Wenden)
m3 Olaf Tryggvasson, king of Norway (1 ch: Harald)
5. Gunhild m. Pallig
6. Mo (daughter)
7. Thorgny Haraldsdatter m. Thrugot?
(1 ch: Thorguna Thrugotsdatter)
I already have some thoughts on the above claimed children of Gorm and
Harald, but I want to make sure I am not misquoting Brenner or
Schwennicke before I comment in more detail.
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>> Harald, king of Denmark, d. 1 Nov. 986,
>> m1 Gunhild m2 Tove
>> Children by Gunhild:
>> 1. Erik, king of Northumbria, d. 950/4
>> (2 ch: Henrik, Reginald)
>
>I had heard that this theory was floating around, but of
>course most sources make the Northumbrian Erik Norse, the
>son of Harald 'Fairhair' and brother-in-law of King Harold
>of Denmark. I seem to recall recently seeing that this
>solution - placing Eric as Danish, could be refuted. I will
>have to see if I can find it again. I think this was the
>same article that argued (convincingly, in my opinion) that
>the chronology of Northumberland had been confused - that
>Erik being expelled, replaced by Olaf, then returning to be
>expelled and replaced by Olaf again is just a replication of
>the same single event from two different chronicles, one of
>which had slipped three years vs. the actual year date.
I guess this is as good a place as any to get out the axe and start
chopping branches off of Gorm's alleged family tree, and what follows
is a more detailed discussion of the points made above by Todd. I am
assuming that the article referred to above is Peter Sawyer's article
"The Last Scandinavian Kings of York", in Northern History 31 (1995),
39-44. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle refers to the Erik who ruled in
Northumbria ca. 950 as being son of a Harald, but without identifying
the Harald in question. The suggestion that this was Harald of
Denmark, son of Gorm, goes back to a statement of Adam of Bremen [Book
2, Chapter 25], which reads: "... Anglia, ut supra diximus et in
gestis Anglorum scribitur, post mortem Gudredi a filiis ejus Analaph,
Sigtrih et Reginold, per annos fere centum permansit in ditione
Danorum. Tunc vero Haroldus, Hiring filium cum exercitu misit in
Angliam. Qui, subaeta insula, tandem proditus et occisus est a
Nordumbris." [Migne, PL 146: 517] This is translated by Tschan as
"... Anglia, as we have said above and as appears in the Gesta of the
Angles, remained afters Gudrod's death in the control of the Danes for
nearly a hundred years from the time of his sons, Aulaf, Sigeric, and
Reginold. But then Harold sent his son Hiring to England with an
army. When the latter had subjugated the island, he was in the end
betrayed and killed by the Northumbrians." [Tschan's translation of
Adam of Bremen, 70-1]
The Harald in question is clearly intended by Adam to be Harald of
Denmark, whom he mentioned a few sentences earlier in the same
chapter. The Gesta Anglorum that Adam refers to as a source is not
known, at least not by that title. (I suspect that it was just some
version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, but it is hard to be sure.)
Thus, we have three individuals:
(1) Erik, king of York, son of Harald (Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and other
English sources)
(2) Erik ("Bloodaxe") of Norway, son of Harald Fairhair (Norwegian and
Icelandic sources)
(3) Hiring, son of Harald of Denmark (Adam of Bremen)
The question is which, if any, of these individuals were the same
person, and which, if any, of the additional details should be
dismissed as mistakes or inventions. The table of Gorm's immediate
descendants in ES shows (1) as the same person as (2), married to a
"dotted line" daughter of Gorm (the "dotted line" presumably meaning
uncertain - I intend to discuss this alleged daughter later). ES also
has Hiring as a daughter of Harald, son of Gorm, but does not call him
a king of Northumbria/York or anything else (in fact, fives no data
other than his name). (My thanks to Rafal Prinke for making the table
from ES available to me.)
Thus, ES is making (3) a different person from (1) and (2). I have a
great deal of difficulty with that interpretation. If some guy named
"Hiring" had subjugated the island (i.e., of Britain) in the tenth
century, we would have heard about it from English sources. Adam's
statements, taken literally, are so far from we know to be the case in
tenth century England that I think we either need to dismiss Hiring's
existence entirely, or assume that "Hiring" was just a corrupted
textual form of the name "Erik", and the events refer to the Erik, son
of Harald that we know about from English sources (and who subjugated
only Northumbria, not the entire island). Given that Adam states that
"Hiring" was killed by Northumbrians, the latter of these alternatives
seems like the obvious choice.
Thus, assuming that (1) and (3) were the same, the next question to
ask is whether Erik of York was the son of Harald of Denmark (as Adam
would imply), or whether Adam was mistaken about the father of Erik of
York, and he should instead be identified with Erik of Norway, as the
Norwegian and Icelandic sources would suggest. Peter Sawyer, in the
above article states (p. 42): "These sagas cannot, however, be
accepted as reliable sources for the tenth century. The only
trustworthy evidence for the tenth century in these sagas are the
contemporary verses around which the saga writers wove their their
tales. The poem Arinbjarnarkviða in Egils Saga, which is generally
accepted as an authentic composition of the tenth-century poet Egil
Skalla-Grímsson, refers to Erik as king in York and confirms that he
was a member of a Norwegian royal dynasty." Thus, there appears to be
good evidence for also identifying (1) and (2). Adam's account is
most likely to be explained as a distorted account of Erik taken from
an English source that had a corrupt spelling of the name, and the
Harald who was the father of Erik/Hiring appears to have been
identified (incorrectly) by Adam with the only Harald during that
period of whom he was aware.
All of which was just a long-winded way of saying that I agree with
Todd's remarks that Erik of Northumbria (and "Hiring") was the same as
Erik of Norway, and that Erik/Hiring should be removed from the list
of Harald of Denmarks sons.
[Stay tuned. There's more hacking and chopping at Gorm's tree to come
in the near future. :-)]
Stewart Baldwin
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> > Harald, king of Denmark, d. 1 Nov. 986,
> > m1 Gunhild m2 Tove
> > Children by Gunhild:
> > 1. Erik, king of Northumbria, d. 950/4
> > (2 ch: Henrik, Reginald)
>
> I had heard that this theory was floating around, but of
> course most sources make the Northumbrian Erik Norse, the
> son of Harald 'Fairhair' and brother-in-law of King Harold
> of Denmark. I seem to recall recently seeing that this
> solution - placing Eric as Danish, could be refuted. I will
> have to see if I can find it again. I think this was the
> same article that argued (convincingly, in my opinion) that
> the chronology of Northumberland had been confused - that
> Erik being expelled, replaced by Olaf, then returning to be
> expelled and replaced by Olaf again is just a replication of
> the same single event from two different chronicles, one of
> which had slipped three years vs. the actual year date.
I managed to locate the source I was refering to. It is:
Sawyer, Peter. The Last Scandinavian Kings of York.
Northern History 31:39-44 (1995).
He considers the remaining fragments of 10th century scaldic
poetry embedded within Hakon's Saga to provide sufficient
evidence for King Erik of Northumbria being of Norwegian
origin, as opposed to the theory that he is the Erik
mentioned by Adam.
(While I was looking, I also stumbled upon a 1974 article
from Medaeival Scandinavia which suggested that the 'Harald'
stone at Jelling was carved twice, first commemorating his
parents (in the clasic pagan style, preceeding his
conversion), and then much later the portion commemorating
his own reign and the Christ image were added. I don't know
what implications this has on the dating of the site, but it
was interesting none the less.)
taf