Re: Who was Ferdinanda von Stolberg (Queen Victoria maternal lineancestor)
John Higgins
Henriette zu Stolberg-Gedern.
The Stolberg family is covered in detail in vol. 17 of Detlev Schwennicke's
Europäische Stammtafeln.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dora Smith" <tigge...@yahoo.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:10 AM
Subject: Who was Ferdinanda von Stolberg (Queen Victoria maternal
lineancestor)
> Does anyone have any further information on Ferdinanada von Stolberg, born
> 1699 in Saxe Coburg?
>
> That is all I can find on her online. She married Count George August
von
> Erbach-Schonberg, b 1691 in Saxe Coburg.
>
> She is Queen Victoria's straight-line maternal great-great grandmother.
>
> Who was she?
>
> I vaguely recall the last time I traced Queen Victoria's roots that a
> commoner, maybe a member of the middle class, married into her lines
> somewhere. I'm not sure that is a woman named von Stolberg, though. An
> aristocratic line by that name keeps popping up in royal genealogies.
>
> Is this the farthest back known ancestor of Queen Victoria's mtDNA?
>
> Yours,
> Dora Smith
> Austin, TX
> tigge...@yahoo.com
>
>
>
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Ian Fettes
The full maternal and paternal lines recorded in Genealogics are visible
from the following url:
http://www.genealogics.org/lines.php?personID=I00000007&tree=LEO&parentset=0&showall=1&generations=4
That needs to be on one line when pasted into your browser.
Ian Fettes
John Higgins
Carole T
I have looked at the search engine for gen-medieval list, but am
using the wrong key-words as I keep getting answers to the Ingelric and
Peverell connection.
My 2 questions are
1. the parents of Ingelric.
I have noticed several entries on private genealogy sites naming
INGELRIC as a son of ETHELRED of England and EMMA of Normandy.
Unfortunately the source for these entries appears to be other genealogy
sites which continue quoting genealogy & pedigree websites, going around in
a circle (A quotes B, who quotes C, who quotes A etc), but do not give a
primary source.
http://www.blae.net/web/douglas_archives/sources.htm
http://www.blae.net/web/douglas_archives/f1527.htm
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=lorenfamily&id=I
07190
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I00691
http://childsfamily.com/reunion/PS26/PS26_314.HTM
and several others.
I have also found some sites that do not list Ingelric as a child of
Ethelred & Emma;
but am curious as to where this claim began.
In over forty years I do not recall reading of Ingelric as a child of
Ethelred and Emma - I am obviously reading the wrong books.
Can someone give me the details of the primary source of Ingelric to
Ethelred of England.
2. Ingelric's spouse.
Usually is not named, however, I did see a website that names her as
"Adela Capet" daughter of Robert II of France and Constance of Toulouse.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wjhonson/Royals/GED2WEB/people/p00
000a8.htm#I13230
Is this Adela the daughter of Robert II and Constance of Arles,
Provence & Toulouse - I have seen Constance described as all three.
I have this Adela as married to Richard III of Normandy and Baldwin V
of Flanders; is there another relationship of Adela to Ingelric ?.
Again, if I am using the wrong references, could someone point me in
the right direction, please.
Thank You
Carole (in Oz)
WJho...@aol.com
lau...@optusnet.com.au writes:
<< 2. Ingelric's spouse.
Usually is not named, however, I did see a website that names her as
"Adela Capet" daughter of Robert II of France and Constance of Toulouse.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wjhonson/Royals/GED2WEB/people/p00
000a8.htm#I13230 >>
Gasp! I've been quoted!
My source, fwiw which isn't much is OneWorldTree
I think you have to trace out the entire line to see what claim is being made.
I.e. that the Peverels were Norman firstly and closely tied to all the
players, England, Normandy, France, and Scandinavia.
As such I'm sure it's false. It's just too high faluting a claim for such a
minor family.
Will Johnson
taf
> To the List members,
>
> I have looked at the search engine for gen-medieval list, but am
> using the wrong key-words as I keep getting answers to the Ingelric and
> Peverell connection.
Took a little looking, but now I see who you have in mind.
> My 2 questions are
>
> 1. the parents of Ingelric.
> I have noticed several entries on private genealogy sites naming
> INGELRIC as a son of ETHELRED of England and EMMA of Normandy.
Complete fantasy. AEthelred and Emma had just three known children -
AElfred, Eadweard, and Godgifu. Further every single one of
AEthelred's children were named for prior kings of Wessex/England.
AEthelred had no such son. In fact, I would be surprised if there
ever was any Ingelric the Saxon. This man is completely invented, as
is his supposed daughter Maud/Ingelrica.
> Unfortunately the source for these entries appears to be other genealogy
> sites which continue quoting genealogy & pedigree websites, going around in
> a circle (A quotes B, who quotes C, who quotes A etc), but do not give a
> primary source.
> I have also found some sites that do not list Ingelric as a child of
> Ethelred & Emma;
> but am curious as to where this claim began.
It appears to derive from a church foundation legend.
> In over forty years I do not recall reading of Ingelric as a child of
> Ethelred and Emma - I am obviously reading the wrong books.
No, just the wrong web sites.
> 2. Ingelric's spouse.
> Usually is not named, however, I did see a website that names her as
> "Adela Capet" daughter of Robert II of France and Constance of Toulouse.http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wjhonson/Royals/GED2WEB/peop...
> 000a8.htm#I13230
>
> Is this Adela the daughter of Robert II and Constance of Arles,
> Provence & Toulouse - I have seen Constance described as all three.
Yes. She was long stated incorrectly to have been daughter of William
of Toulouse, but it is the same woman.
> I have this Adela as married to Richard III of Normandy and Baldwin V
> of Flanders; is there another relationship of Adela to Ingelric ?.
Absolutely not.
> Again, if I am using the wrong references, could someone point me in
> the right direction, please.
Taylor, Pamela.. "Ingelric, Count Eustace and the Foundation of St
Martin-le-Grand" in _Anglo-Norman Studies_, 24: 215-237. (which I have
not read yet, but is in a scholarly journal and clearly deals with the
subject in question)
taf
WJho...@aol.com
farm...@interfold.com writes:
<< > I have this Adela as married to Richard III of Normandy and Baldwin
V
> of Flanders; is there another relationship of Adela to Ingelric ?.
Absolutely not. >>
A few months ago Peter Stewart (12/19/06) pointed out that Adela "Capet" did
not marry Richard III of Normandy. Although his wife was named Adela, her
parentage is not known.
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
farm...@interfold.com writes:
<< > I have this Adela as married to Richard III of Normandy and Baldwin
V
> of Flanders; is there another relationship of Adela to Ingelric ?.
Absolutely not. >>
This plus Peter's remark would represent a correction to "Heraldry of the
Royal Families" as they do show, Table 64, Aelis d 1079, dau of Robert II K of
France 996 d 1031 by his third wife Constance d 1032 d of William Count of
Provence.
Aelis they show in the same talbe, m1 Robert III Duke of Normandy 1027, d
1027, m2 Baldwin Count of Flanders 1028 d 1067.
I need to add a note to my database stating that this should be corrected to
show that Adela, the wife of Robert has unknown parentage, and that Baldwin
was Adela "of Arles" or "of Provence"'s only husband.
Will
Peter Stewart
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.3488.11716642...@rootsweb.com...
You have gone too far with this.
Adela was married only once, to Balduin V, count of Flanders (the purported
earlier marriage to Richard III, duke of Normandy, was an error, as you
state).
Her parents were Robert II, king of Franks, and Constance of Arles whose
father was William II 'the Liberator', count of Arles & marquis of Provence.
The longstanding error that Todd referred to was making her the daughter of
a different William, a count of Toulouse.
Peter Stewart
taf
> In a message dated 2/16/07 1:45:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>
>
> << > I have this Adela as married to Richard III of Normandy and Baldwin
> V
> > of Flanders; is there another relationship of Adela to Ingelric ?.
>
> Absolutely not. >>
>
> This plus Peter's remark would represent a correction to "Heraldry of the
> Royal Families" as they do show, Table 64, Aelis d 1079, dau of Robert II K of
> France 996 d 1031 by his third wife Constance d 1032 d of William Count of
> Provence.
And so she was.
> Aelis they show in the same talbe, m1 Robert III Duke of Normandy 1027, d
> 1027, m2 Baldwin Count of Flanders 1028 d 1067.
I agree with Peter - I guess I should have commented on the Richard
marriage and said that two was already one to many, but I didn't have
the time to go into it so I just rejected the Ingelred connection.
This is a good lesson. In the past posters have argued that since a
particular poster has not explicitly rejected a connection in a
response, they must agree with it. This is not necessarily the case.
> I need to add a note to my database stating that this should be corrected to
> show that Adela, the wife of Robert has unknown parentage, and that Baldwin
> was Adela "of Arles" or "of Provence"'s only husband.
Whoa. I guess it wasn't clear which "she" I was talking about. I
meant Constance de Toulouse (sic) is the same person as Constance of
Provence. I was not correcting the parentage of Baldwin's wife.
taf
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 2/16/2007 11:21:57 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
farm...@interfold.com writes:
> I need to add a note to my database stating that this should be corrected
to
> show that Adela, the wife of Robert has unknown parentage, and that Baldwin
> was Adela "of Arles" or "of Provence"'s only husband.
Whoa. I guess it wasn't clear which "she" I was talking about. I
meant Constance de Toulouse (sic) is the same person as Constance of
Provence. I was not correcting the parentage of Baldwin's wife.
I'm not sure why people are misreading what I wrote.
1) Adela the wife of Robert has unknown parentage
and seperately
2) Baldwin was Adela "of Arles" only husband
That doesn't touch at all on the parentage of Baldwin's wife.
Which I presume would still stay the way Heraldry is showing it now.
I was going to ask a followup question, since they've confused the two
Adelas on whether they've also confused the death date(s) of the two Adelas. They
show a death date, but now I'm not sure to which one it refers, most likely
the one who was also the wife of Baldwin. I have a faint suspicion Peter is
going to pipe in with one of his "we only know Adela the wife of Robert from
a single document" type responses ;)
Will Johnson
taf
> In a message dated 2/16/2007 11:21:57 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
>
>
>
> farme...@interfold.com writes:
> > I need to add a note to my database stating that this should be corrected
> to
> > show that Adela, the wife of Robert has unknown parentage, and that Baldwin
> > was Adela "of Arles" or "of Provence"'s only husband.
>
> Whoa. I guess it wasn't clear which "she" I was talking about. I
> meant Constance de Toulouse (sic) is the same person as Constance of
> Provence. I was not correcting the parentage of Baldwin's wife.
>
> I'm not sure why people are misreading what I wrote.
Let me count the ways :)
> 1) Adela the wife of Robert has unknown parentage
> and seperately
Richard (III, Duke of Normandy), right? If not, I am lost.
> 2) Baldwin was Adela "of Arles" only husband
This is what is causing the misunderstanding. Why are you calling
Adela, undisputed daughter of Robert II, King of France by the name
Adela "of Arles" or "of Provence". While it is somewhat arbitrary
exactly what toponym you give her, it is conventional to refer to
medievals by their father's localle, unless there is some special
reason to do otherwise.
taf
Peter Stewart
<WJho...@AOL.COM> wrote in message
news:mailman.3502.11716982...@rootsweb.com...
[On Feb 16, 2:17 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:]
Since, as Todd remarked, you presumably mean Adela the wife of Richard
rather than "the wife of Robert", then your suspicion is warranted: we only
know of Duke Richard III's wife from a single charter, dated January 1026,
by which he gave her Coutance. We don't know any more about her, including
the date of her death. It is possible that she was the Countess Adelays
recorded in the obituary of Jumièges under 16 January, but this was perhaps
Adela of Breteuil, countess of Clermont, who died at the end of the 12th
century, or another namesake of this rank.
Adela of France, countess of Flanders, is known from many sources. She died
at Messines on 8 January, almost certainly in 1079, and was buried there.
Peter Stewart