Maud versus Matilda

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Below are abstracts of six petitions found in the online Discovery catalog of the National Archives. The names of all six petitioners has been entered as Matilda by the modern archivist. All six petitions are available for free viewing through the catalog.

I reviewed all of the actual documents just now and they show a much different picture than presented by the catalog. The name Matilda vanishes! Instead we are met with the following name count:

Maud (3)
Maude (1)
Mald (1)
Mauld (1)

It appears that the archivist has replaced the name of Maud and its variant forms and instead chosen to employ the Latin form Matilda in the six catalog entries. This creates the false impression that the name Matilda is found in the original petition. Not so.

Below I've abstracted the catalog entries verbatim and then I show the actual name forms of all parties as they appear in the original petition. For the most part the petitions are legible. I believe I've transcribed all of the names correctly. Some lettering, however, is difficult to read.

I'll post additional petitions as time permits.

I should mention that there are two well known people who occur in the petitions below, namely Maud Fitz Thomas [died 1328], widow of Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, and Maud de Nerford [living 1326, dead before 22 Nov. 1345], the notorious mistress of Sir John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey. For additional particulars of these two women, see my book, Royal Ancestry, published in 2013.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +

1. Reference: SC 8/33/1620

Petitioner: Matilda de Berklem of Brabant
Name: de Berklem, Matilda
Addressees: King and council
People mentioned: Walter de Berklem, brother of the petitioner; William Servet
Date: 1318

- - - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Mald de Berklem of Brabant. No Matilda.

Actual names of other people: Waut' de Berklem [i.e., Walter de Berklem];
William Servet

2. Reference: SC 8/90/4483

Petitioner: Matilda Bouteteurt (Buteturte).
Name: Bouteteurt (Buteturte), Matilda
People mentioned: Hugh le Despenser, the younger; John de Buteturte, late husband of the petitioner; Thomas of [Lancaster], Earl of Lancaster.

Date: 1327
- - - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Maude Boutetourt. No Matilda.

Actual names of other people: Jehan jadis son baron [i.e., John her late husband]; Hugh le Despenser le puisne [i.e., Hugh le Despenser the younger]; Thom' jadis counte de Lancaster [i.e., Thomas late Earl of Lancaster].

3. Reference: SC 8/72/3555

Petitioner: Matilda Schakyl, widow of Richard Schakyl.
Name(s): Schakyl, Matilda
Addressees: King and council.
People mentioned: Richard Schakyl; John de Goldeburgh (Guilsborough).
Date: c.1375

- - - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Maud widow of Richard Schakyl. No Matilda.

Actual names of other people mentioned: Richard Schakyl; John de Gyldesburgh.

4. Reference: SC 8/62/3073

Petitioner: Matilda de Morton of Coventry.
Name(s): de Morton, Matilda
Addressees: King and council.

Other people mentioned: John Prest of Coventry; Nicholas Michel of Coventry; Master of St John the Baptist of Coventry.

Date: ?1360-?1377
- - - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Maud de Morton of Coventry
Actual names of other people mentioned: John Prest of Coventry; Nichol Michel of Coventry; Master of St John the Baptist of Coventry.

5. Reference: SC 8/36/1789

Petitioner: Matilda Broun (Brown), widow of Robert Brown.
Name: Broun (Brown), Matilda
Addressees: King and council.

People mentioned: Robert Broun (Brown), late husband of the petitioner; Eda Pages of Bere.

Date: c. 1272-c. 1307
- - - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Mauld widow of Robert Broun
Actual names of other people mentioned: Ed'e Pages of Bere [i.e,, Edward Pages of Bere].

6. Reference: SC 8/157/7833

Petitioner: Matilda de Nerford.
Name: de Nerford, Matilda
Addressees: King and council.

People mentioned: Thomas [of Lancaster], earl of Lancaster; Ralph de Thidemersh, chamberlain of the earl of Lancaster.

Date: c. 1323

- - - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Maud de Nerford
Actual names of other people mentioned: Thomas counte of Lancaster [i.e., Thomas Earl of Lancaster]; Rauf de Thidemersh son chamberleyn [i.e., Ralph de Thidemersh/Tydmarsh his chamberlain].

For Ralph de Tydmarsh, see Conway, Baronial Opposition to Edward II: Its Character and Policy (1918): 397.

[Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)]

From: Douglas Richardson [royala...@msn.com]
Sent: 19 May 2014 18:01

> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Below are abstracts of six petitions found in the online Discovery catalog of the National Archives. The names of all six petitioners has been entered as Matilda by the modern archivist. All six petitions are available for free viewing through the catalog.
>
> I reviewed all of the actual documents just now and they show a much different picture than presented by the catalog. The name Matilda vanishes! Instead we are met with the following name count:
>
> Maud (3)
> Maude (1)
> Mald (1)
> Mauld (1)
>
> It appears that the archivist has replaced the name of Maud and its variant forms and instead chosen to employ the Latin form Matilda in the six catalog entries. This creates the false impression that the name Matilda is found in the original petition. Not so.
>
> Below I've abstracted the catalog entries verbatim and then I show the actual name forms of all parties as they appear in the original petition. For the most part the petitions are legible. I believe I've transcribed all of the names correctly. Some lettering, however, is difficult to read.
>
> I'll post additional petitions as time permits.
>
> I should mention that there are two well known people who occur in the petitions below, namely Maud Fitz Thomas [died 1328], widow of Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, and Maud de Nerford [living 1326, dead before 22 Nov. 1345], the notorious mistress of Sir John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey. For additional particulars of these two women, see my book, Royal Ancestry, published in 2013.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>

The 'Mauld' in the Broun petition is actually Matill', Douglas. But this doesn't weaken your point, as that petition is in Latin, so it is hardly surprising that the name should appear in the Latin form 'Matillda' (for which Matill' was a common abbreviation - it can also be seen in the Latin endorsement on Maud de Berklem's petition).

I agree that it does seem perverse to translate the French Maud/Maude/Mald into Matilda. Though it isn't a complete solecism - there is good evidence that Matilda was not solely the Latin form of the name, but was also used in English, alongside Maud (as Andrew Millard has already pointed out).

In Maud Broun's petition the reference is definitely to Eda Pages, not Edward, for two reasons. First, there is no abbreviation mark on the name (on its second occurrence, in the second line, where it is in the nominative case - there is a mark above it in the first line, but that is because there it is in the accusative, so the name becomes 'Edam'). Second, because it is clearly feminine in gender - in the second line it is 'predicta Eda', and in the first 'Edam' - it would be 'predictus Ed'us' and 'versus Ed'um' if it were male.

Though even if it were male it would be unlikely to be Edward - it would almost certainly be Edmund. In this period Edmund was a much more common name than Edward (Redmonds' Christian Names provides statistics from the Poll Taxes, but I don't have it to hand) and the apparently ambiguous abbreviated form Ed'us or Ed's almost always represents Edmundus, with Edwardus usually being spelt out in full, or if abbreviated with at least a 'w' or 'r' in it (except when it appears in dates referring to regnal years, when it is often abbreviated to just 'E').

Matt Tompkins

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[Douglas Richardson]

My comments are interspersed. DR

On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 4:12:24 AM UTC-6, Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.) wrote:

> The 'Mauld' in the Broun petition is actually Matill', Douglas. But this doesn't weaken your point, as that petition is in Latin, so it is hardly surprising that the name should appear in the Latin form 'Matillda' (for which Matill' was a common abbreviation - it can also be seen in the Latin endorsement on Maud de Berklem's petition).

Matt ~ I very much appreciate your comments.

Yes, of course, the Broun petition is in Latin. I'll be sure to double check the language of each petition as I list them in future posts. In any event, I had trouble with this name. The letters all seem to be clearly formed. To me it looks like Maald or Mauld. There doesn't seem to be a "t" in the name at all. Can you take another look at this petition for me? The last two letters clearly seem to me to be "ld" not an "ll" as you have it. I'm willing to settle on Maald or Mauld.

< I agree that it does seem perverse to translate the French Maud/Maude/Mald <into Matilda.

Agreed. You earlier referred to Marion in a Parliamentary petition written in French as being a French name. And here you are referring to Maud/Maude/Mald as being French. While it is true these names are found in petitions to Parliament written in French, they appear to be the actual contemporary English name forms, not French. For example, in these same petitions, we find English Hugh (not French Hugues), English John (not French Jean), English William (not French Guillaume), etc. If Hugh, John, and William are English names, then so would be Marion and Maud/Maude/Mald. Why did they leave the names in English and write the petition in French? I have no idea.

I might add that Maud Botetourt referred to her husband as "Jehan" [i.e., John]. Jehan/Johan were the common spellings of John in medieval England. So Jehan would also be a contemporary English name form.

In a similar vein, we have the Common Pleas court records written in Latin. In those records, people's given names are converted to the Latin forms. But, for some reason, a man's profession is often given in English. I'm not sure why that was done, but you see it over and over again. Why were the professions left in English? I have no idea.

< In Maud Broun's petition the reference is definitely to Eda Pages, not <Edward, for two reasons. First, there is no abbreviation mark on the name (on <its second occurrence, in the second line, where it is in the nominative case <- there is a mark above it in the first line, but that is because there it is <in the accusative, so the name becomes 'Edam'). Second, because it is clearly <feminine in gender - in the second line it is 'predicta Eda', and in the first <'Edam' - it would be 'predictus Ed'us' and 'versus Ed'um' if it were male.

You're entirely correct. As for the name "Eda Pages" which I erroneously gave as "Edwarde Pages," before I read your post, I had already decided that I got this name wrong and was going to post a correction. The name occurs twice in the brief petition. The name is clearly Eda. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe Eda is a variant form of Edith. At least I've seen a certain Edith called Eda in a visitation record.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

In yesterday's post, I listed six Parliamentary petitions written in French in which the modern archivist gave the name of the petitioner as Matilda. But when the original record was checked, the name Matilda simply vanished. Poof!

Unfortunately one petition slipped through which was written in Latin. Mea culpa. However, I've located another petition written in French for the same person. So we can replace the Latin petition in the name count with the French petition.

It appears that although the petitions were written in French, the fore-names were given in English. Hence we have Hugh, John, William, Edward, etc. instead of Hugues, Jean, Guillaume, Edouard, etc.

Below are three more additional petitions. I've abstracted the catalog entries verbatim and then I show the actual name forms of all parties as they appear in the original petition.

In one petition, the archivist added the name of the petitioner which is not found in the original document. And, leaving out the Latin petition, we have now have a total seven petitions which we can use to determine the contemporary vernacular name form of Maud. Here is the name dispersion total as of today:

Maud (4)
Maude (2)
Mald (1)

No Matilda.

More petitions will be posted as time permits.

The petitions below mention two well known people to English medieval history, namely Hugh le Despenser the father, Earl of Winchester [died 1326] and Sir John de Haudlo [died 1346]. For further particulars of these two individuals, see my book, Royal Ancestry [5 volume set], published in 2013.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

P.S. Least anyone think I am cherry picking the petitions, I'm rolling right on through all of the petitions one by one. None are being excluded, except those in Latin.

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7. Reference: SC 8/152/7572

Petitioners: Matilda Fitz John, widow of Thomas Fitz John of Wingrave.
Name(s): Fitz John, Matilda
Addressees: King and council.

Other people mentioned: Thomas Fitz John of Wingrave, late husband of the petitioner; William atte Putte of Berkhamsted, late under-sheriff of Bedfordshire; Henry de Chalfhunte (Chalfhunt), sheriff of Buckinghamshire.

Date: 1341 - 1344
Language: French

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Maude widow of Thomas Fitz Johan of Wengrave. No Matilda.

Actual names of other people mentioned: William atte Putte of [?Berkhamsted]; Henr[?y] de Chalfhunte, viscont[?e] Buk [i.e., Henry de Chalfhunte, sheriff of Buckinghamshire].

8.
Reference: SC 8/50/2473

Petitioner: Matilda Upton, Abbess of Godstow.
Name: Upton, Matilda
Addressees: King and council

Other people mentioned: Hugh le Despenser, the father, Keeper of the Forest below the Trent; John de Handlo, Sub-Keeper of the Forest.

Date: 1315
Language: French

- - - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Abbess of Godstowe. The abbess' name is not mentioned in the petiton, but has been supplied by the archivist without any explanation.

Actual names of other people mentioned: Sire Hugh le Despenser le pere ... garden de la fforest [i.e., Sir Hugh le Despenser the father ... warden of the Forest]; Sire Johan de Haudlo son ____garden de la fforest [i.e., John de Haudlo his sub-warden of the Forest]; le roi Edward [King Edward].

The name is clearly Haudlo, not Handlo. This name is often misread by archivist. The name derives from Hadlow, Kent.

9.
Reference: SC 8/36/1793

Petitioners: Matilda Broun (Brown), widow of Robert Brown.
Name(s): Broun (Brown), Matilda
Addressees: King and council.

People mentioned: Robert Brown, husband of the petitioner; Ralph Quentrel, Bailiff of the abbot of Cerne; Abbot of Cerne.

Date: c. 1272-c. 1307
Language: French

- - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Maud wife of Robert Broun. No Matilda.

Actual name of other people mentioned: Rauf Quentrel bailif le Abbé de Cerne [i.e., Ralph Quentrel bailiff (of) the abbot of Cerne]; Abbot of Cerne

[Douglas Richardson]

Matt ~

Just a quick note.

I re-checked the Latin petition of Maud Broun again. I now believe the name in that petition is Matild, whereas you read it as Matill. The formation of the letters "ti" in Matild looked like an "a" to me when I first looked at the petition the other day. I now realize what I took for an "a" is actually a "ti" combination.

Today I found another petition (this one in French) for another party and realized that your reading of the "ti" in the Broun petition was correct. In this new petition, the woman's name clearly has a "ti" in it. But, strangely, in another place in the same petition, the same name looks like it has an "a" rather than a "ti." Weird, huh?

Needless to say, deciphering medieval handwriting can be quite challenging. With practice, you learn the small differences in letter formation. In a later period, a "ti" combination would never be mistaken for an "a."

[Peter Stewart]

On 20/05/2014 8:12 PM, Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.) wrote:
> From: Douglas Richardson [royala...@msn.com]
> Sent: 19 May 2014 18:01
>> Dear Newsgroup ~
>>
>> Below are abstracts of six petitions found in the online Discovery catalog of the National Archives. The names of all six petitioners has been entered as Matilda by the modern archivist. All six petitions are available for free viewing through the catalog.
>>
>> I reviewed all of the actual documents just now and they show a much different picture than presented by the catalog. The name Matilda vanishes! Instead we are met with the following name count:
>>
>> Maud (3)
>> Maude (1)
>> Mald (1)
>> Mauld (1)
>>
>> It appears that the archivist has replaced the name of Maud and its variant forms and instead chosen to employ the Latin form Matilda in the six catalog entries. This creates the false impression that the name Matilda is found in the original petition. Not so.
>>
>> Below I've abstracted the catalog entries verbatim and then I show the actual name forms of all parties as they appear in the original petition. For the most part the petitions are legible. I believe I've transcribed all of the names correctly. Some lettering, however, is difficult to read.
>>
>> I'll post additional petitions as time permits.
>>
>> I should mention that there are two well known people who occur in the petitions below, namely Maud Fitz Thomas [died 1328], widow of Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, and Maud de Nerford [living 1326, dead before 22 Nov. 1345], the notorious mistress of Sir John de Warenne, Earl of Surrey. For additional particulars of these two women, see my book, Royal Ancestry, published in 2013.
>>
>> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>>
>
> The 'Mauld' in the Broun petition is actually Matill', Douglas. But this
> doesn't weaken your point, as that petition is in Latin, so it is hardly
> surprising that the name should appear in the Latin form 'Matillda' (for
> which Matill' was a common abbreviation - it can also be seen in the Latin
> endorsement on Maud de Berklem's petition).

Matill (allowing for its spelling variants) was apparently also a
vernacular form of the name, or where else would the surname Mattleson
(and its spelling variants) come from?

Peter Stewart

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Below are five more additional petitions. I've abstracted the Discovery catalog entries for these petitions verbatim and then I show the actual name forms of all parties as they appear in the original petition.

All the petitions below are in French. But, as I've noted earlier, the names themselves appear to be vernacular English forms.

Here is the name dispersion total of the various petitions as of today:

Maud (5)

Maude (3)

Mald (1)

Maut (2)

Matill (or ?Maall) (1)

A clear name pattern is starting to appear. The name Maud and its variant forms Maude/Malde/Maut is dominate with 11 occurences. We have one single Matill (which could also be Maall - see my note below).

The petitions below mention three people well known to English medieval history, namely Sir Edmund [of England], Earl of Lancaster, Leicester, and Derby [died 1296, younger son of King Henry III of England], and Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt [died 1324] and his wife, Maud [died 1328]. For further particulars of these individuals, see my book, Royal Ancestry [5 volume set], published in 2013.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + +

10. Reference: SC 8/40/1959

Petitioner: Matilda Caryngton (Carrington), widow of William de Carrington, knight.
Name: Caryngton (Carrington), Matilda
Addressees: King and council.

Other people mentioned: William de Caryngton, (Carrington), knight, late husband of the petitioner; Thomas Wever (Weaver), son and heir of Richard de Weaver; [John of Gaunt], Duke of Lancaster; Thomas de Arderne (Ardern).

Date: c. 1378
Language: French.

- - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Maude widow of William de Caryngton, knight. No Matilda.

Actual name of other people mentioned: Thomas fitz & heir de Richard de Wever [i.e., Thomas son and heir of Richard de Wever]; Thomas de Arderne.

11. Reference: SC 8/72/3589

Petitioner: Matilda de Skeffynton (Skeffington), widow of John de Skeffington.
Name: de Skeffynton (Skeffington), Matilda
Addressees: King and council.

Names of other people mentioned: John de Skeffynton (Skeffington), late husband of the petitioner; Thomas de Smythson, brother of the petitioner.

Date: c. 1300-c. 1350
Language: French

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Matill widow of John Skeffynton. The petitioner's name is given three times. First instance looks like Matill (but it could be Maall). The second could be either Matill or Maall. The third instance looks like Maall.

Actual name of other person: Thomas de Smythson, brother of the petitioner.

12. Reference: SC 8/111/5547

Petitioner: Matilda de Fulham, widow of Edmund son and heir of Robert of Fulham.
Name: de Fulham, Matilda
Addressees: King and council.

Names of other people mentioned: Edmund [de Fulham], son and heir of Robert de Fulham; Robert de Fulham; Aaron son of Vyves, Jew of Edmund earl of Leicester; Edmund [Crouchback, Earl of Leicester]; Saulot son of Samuel the Jew; Master Roger Seyton (Seaton), Justice in Eyre.

Date: c. 1284

Language: French

- - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Maut widow of "Edmon fiz et heyr Robt de ffulham" [i.e., Edmund son and heir of Robert de Fulham]. No Matilda.

Actual names of other parties: Sire Edmon [son of the king]; Aaron fiz Vyves Jeu [of the said] Sire Edmon; Saulot son of Samuel Jeu; Robert de Fulham; Master Roger Seyton, Justice in Eyre in Cambridge.

Note: The modern archivist has identified Sir Edmund son of the king as Edmund [Crouchback, Earl of Leicester]. The identification is correct, but Edmund is better known as the Earl of Lancaster. Also the nickname Crouchback is historically inaccurate.

13. Reference: SC 8/112/5576

Petitioner: Matilda de Forneaux (Furness), widow of Matthew de Furness; Simon de Forneaux (Furness), executors of the testament of Matthew de Furness.
Name(s): de Forneaux (Furness); de Forneaux (Furness), Matilda; Simon
Addressees: King and council.

Names of other persons mentioned: Matthew de Forneaux (Furness), late sheriff of Devon; William de Betenell, king's clerk and surveyor of victuals; Richard de la Bourne, master of the ship called le Plente de Tengemuth; Julius de Trezan; Henry Wakerel.

Date: c. 1316
Language: French

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioners: Maut widow of Mathu de Forneaux and Simond de Forneaux

Actual names of other people: William de Betenell, king's clerk and surveyor of victuals; Richard de la Bourne, master of the ship called le Plente de Tengemuth. The last two people named in the catalog for this petition are Julius de Trezan and Henry Wakerel. Their names appear as witnesses at the bottom of the petition and are very difficult to make out. The surname of first witness starts "de Tr..." The first name of the second witness in Henry.

Note: Matthew de Furneux was Sheriff of Devonshire in the period, 1311-1315 [see List of Sheriffs for England & Wales (PRO Lists and Indexes 9) (1898): 34].

14. Reference: SC 8/95/4715

Petitioners: John Boutetourt (Buteturte); Maud (Matilda) Boutetourt (Buteturte), wife of John Buteturte.
Name(s): Boutetourt (Buteturte); Boutetourt (Buteturte), John; Maud (Matilda)
Addressees: King.

Names of other people mentioned: Abbess and convent of Marham.

Date: c.1324
Language: French

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Actual names of petitioners: John Boutetourt and Maud his wife
Actual names of others: Abbess and convent of the church of my lady of Marham

[Matt Tompkins]

On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 11:16:23 PM UTC+1, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Matt ~
>
> Just a quick note.
>
> I re-checked the Latin petition of Maud Broun again. I now believe the name in that petition is Matild, whereas you read it as Matill. The formation of the letters "ti" in Matild looked like an "a" to me when I first looked at the petition the other day. I now realize what I took for an "a" is actually a "ti" combination.
>

Yes, it could well be Matild' (with an abbreviation mark at the end). I wavered between Matild' and Matill' but after careful comparison of the pen strokes in the last letter with other 'd's in the petition I finally plumped, on balance, for Matill'.

Matt

[Matt Tompkins]

On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 11:28:20 PM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
> Matill (allowing for its spelling variants) was apparently also a
> vernacular form of the name, or where else would the surname Mattleson
> (and its spelling variants) come from?
>
> Peter Stewart

Reaney does suggest this explanation of Mattleson, though rather tentatively. Other possibilities would be Matthew/Matthias (Matt + el, a vocalic suffix common in hypocoristic forms), Bartholomew (Bat + el, cf Bateson, Batson in Reaney, but with the initial consonant substituted to produce a rhyming form) and even Adam (At + el, cf Adkin, Atkin in Reaney, but with an initial consonant added to produce a rhyme).

Matt Tompkins

[Matt Tompkins]

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:37:54 AM UTC+1, Douglas Richardson wrote:
<snip>

> 11. Reference: SC 8/72/3589
> Petitioner: Matilda de Skeffynton (Skeffington), widow of John de Skeffington.
> Name: de Skeffynton (Skeffington), Matilda
> Addressees: King and council.
> Names of other people mentioned: John de Skeffynton (Skeffington), late husband of the petitioner; Thomas de Smythson, brother of the petitioner.
> Date: c. 1300-c. 1350
> Language: French
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Actual name of petitioner: Matill widow of John Skeffynton. The petitioner's name is given three times. First instance looks like Matill (but it could be Maall). The second could be either Matill or Maall. The third instance looks like Maall.
>

It's definitely Matill' (though in the third instance the 'ti' is written rather carelessly, making it look a little like a double-lobed 'a').

Matt Tompkins

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Below are five more additional petitions drawn from the online Discovery catalog. I've abstracted catalog entries for these petitions verbatim and then I show the actual name forms of all parties as they appear in the original petition.

All the petitions below are in French. But, as I've noted earlier, the names themselves appear to be vernacular English forms. There is a note in Latin on the backside of one petition and, as expected, the fore-names in that note are given in Latin forms.

In petition #18 below, I have read the name of the wife of Thomas de Spayne as M[alde?]. I'm not satisfied that I have read this name correctly, as the exact letters are not clear in the original. Whatever the name is, it is definitely not Matilda as claimed by the archivist.

Here is the name dispersion total of the various petitions as of today:

Maud (7)
Maude (4)
Mald (1)
M[alde?] 1
Maut (2)
Mahaut (1)
Matill (1)

A clear name pattern in the petitions has started to appear. The name Maud and its variant forms Maude/Mald/Malde/Maut/Mahaut dominates with 16 occurences. We have one single Matill (which could also be Maall).

In petition #19 below dated 1315, reference is made to King Henry I and his wife, Queen Maude. This petition written in 700 years ago is testimony that King Henry's wife's name was considered by people living in that era to be Maud (or if you prefer Maude), not Matilda as altered by the archivist.

In petition #16 below we also meet "Idoigne," wife of John de Cromwell. Strangely, the archivist has transformed the vernacular name Idoigne into the Latin form Idonia. Historians usually spell this name Idoine.

The petitions below mention several people well known to English medieval history, namely Sir Robert de Welle (living 1326) and his wife, Maud de Clare (died 1327); Sir John de Cromwell, Lord Cromwell (died 1335) and his wife, Idoine de Vipont (died 1333); Sir Robert de Clifford, 1st Lord Clifford (died 1314) and his son and heir, Roger de Clifford; Margaret of France, Queen of England (died 1318) [widow of King Edward I]; King Henry I of England (died 1135) and his wife, Maud of Scotland (died 1118). For further particulars of these individuals, please see my book, Royal Ancestry [5 volume set], published in 2013.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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15. Reference: SC 8/40/1959

Petitioner: No petitioner named

Other people mentioned: Florence; Clemence, sister of Florence; Matilda, daughter of Clemence; Clemence, daughter of Florence; Juliane, daughter of Clemence; Walter Chopyn of Blaneford; John le Taverner; Pernuel [le Taverner], wife of John le Taverner; Richard de Yeteministre; Henry Reyner; John le Spicer, Pernuel [le Spicer], wife of John le Spicer; Robert de Nywanham; Katherine [Reyner], wife of Henry Reyner and daughter of John le Spicer; John le Spicer, brother of Katherine; Clemence, sister of Katherine.

Date: c. 1272-c. 1290

Language: French.

- - - - - - - - -

Actual names of people: Florence; her sister Clemence .... her three daughters, Maud, Clemence, and Juliane; Waut' [i.e., Walter] Chopyn of Blaneford; Johan le Taverner and Pernuel his wife; Richard de Yeteministre; Henri Reyner; Katryne, wife of Henri Reyner and daughter of Johan le Spicer; Johan le Spicer and his four daughters; Johan le Spicer, brother of Katryne; Robert de Nywanham; Clemence, sister of Katryne.

16. Reference: SC 8/151/7520

Petitioner: Robert de Welle; Matilda de Welle, wife of Robert de Welle.

Name: de Welle; de Welle, Robert; Matilda

Addressees: King.

Names of other people mentioned: John de Crumwelle (Cromwell); Idonia [de Crumwelle (Cromwell)], wife of John de Cromwell; Robert de Clifford; Roger de Clifford, son and heir of Robert de Clifford

Date: c. 1322

Language: French

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Actual names of petitioners: Robert de Welle and Mahaut his wife.

Actual name of other persons: John [de] Crumwelle and Idoigne his wife; Robert de Clifford; Roger de Clifford son and heir.

17. Reference: SC 8/91/4543

Petitioner: Matilda de Bayuse (Bayouse), widow of Thomas de Bayuse of Somerset.

Name: de Bayuse (Bayouse), Matilda

Addressees: King.

Names of other people mentioned: William de la Beche; Thomas de Bayuse (Bayouse), late husband of the petitioner; John de Berwik (Berwick), clerk.

Date: c. 1310-c. 1315

Language: French

- - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Maud widow of Thomas de Bayuse.

Actual names of other parties: Williame [also Will'me] de la Beche; Johan de Berwik, clerk.

18. Reference: SC 8/72/3560

Petitioner: John de . . ., valet of the Chamber.

Name: John

Addressees: King and council.

Names of other persons mentioned: [John] de Northtoft; John de Spayne; Thomas de Spayne, late husband of Matilda, daughter of Nicholas Pecche; Matilda [de Spayne], widow of Thomas de Spayne, and daughter of Nicholas Pecche; Nicholas Pecche.

Date: c. 1300-c. 1350
Language: French

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Actual name of petitioner: Johan de Northtooft, valet of the Chamber.

Actual names of other people: Johan de Spayne; Thomas de Spayne late husband of M[alde?], daughter of Nicol Pecche.

Note: The catalog indicates that the wife of Thomas de Spayne is named Matilda in this petition. The actual name looks like Malde. It definitely is not Matilda.

19. Reference: SC 8/2/86

Petitioner: Thomas de Yuseflet (Ousefleet), parson of the church of St John of Devizes.

Name: de Yuseflet (Ousefleet), Thomas

Addressees: King and council.

Names of other people mentioned: Margaret [of France], Queen of England; Henry I, King of England; Matilda [of Scotland], Queen of England; John de Foxle (Foxley); John Bluet; William de Hardene (Harden).

Date: 1315

Language: French

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Actual names of petitioner: Thomas de Yu[se/]flet, parson of the church of St. John of Devizes.

Actual names of others: Queen Margarete [widow of King Edward I]; my lady the Queen; the souls of King Henri [I] and Queen Maude.

There is a notation in Latin on the reverse side of the original petition which names Joh'es de Foxle; Johannes Bluet; Will's de Hardene. These given names are in Latin.

[Matt Tompkins]

On Wednesday, 21 May 2014 19:27:25 UTC+1, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Below are five more additional petitions drawn from the online Discovery catalog. I've abstracted catalog entries for these petitions verbatim and then I show the actual name forms of all parties as they appear in the original petition.
>
> All the petitions below are in French. But, as I've noted earlier, the names themselves appear to be vernacular English forms. There is a note in Latin on the backside of one petition and, as expected, the fore-names in that note are given in Latin forms.
>
> In petition #18 below, I have read the name of the wife of Thomas de Spayne as M[alde?]. I'm not satisfied that I have read this name correctly, as the exact letters are not clear in the original. Whatever the name is, it is definitely not Matilda as claimed by the archivist.
>
> Here is the name dispersion total of the various petitions as of today:
>
> Maud (7)
> Maude (4)
> Mald (1)
> M[alde?] 1
> Maut (2)
> Mahaut (1)
> Matill (1)
>
> A clear name pattern in the petitions has started to appear. The name Maud and its variant forms Maude/Mald/Malde/Maut/Mahaut dominates with 16 occurences. We have one single Matill (which could also be Maall).
>

In the TNA image of no. 18 the name isn't really legible, but I'm fairly sure there's no 'l' in it. So far as I can make it out it looks like Mode, or maybe Mude, or just possibly Made.

In no. 5 it is definitely Matill' or Matild', though - not Maall. Trust me!

Matt Tompkins

<snip>

[janetrobertw...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 5:16:36 PM UTC-4, Matt Tompkins wrote:
>
> In no. 5 it is definitely Matill' or Matild', though - not Maall. Trust me!
>

Perhaps it will be easier for most people to see that the intended letters in no. 5 are Matild' if one compares the image of no. 5, which is SC 8/36/1789, available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details/AddtoBasket?iaid=C9061990#
with a few examples of the word Matilda in CP40 cases on AALT.

The CP40 cases are much later (second half of the 1400s vs late 1200s-early 1300s), but it looks to me like the way of writing Matilda is very similar. Here are the AALT examples and Rosemary's index entries for them:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no717/aCP40no717fronts/IMG_0077.htm
Indexed as f 77 Hants debt Lovell, Matilda or Maud, of Romsey, abbess vs. Loveday, Thomas, of Seventon in Stepul Assheton, Wilts, husbandman

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no758/bCP40no758dorses/IMG_0737.htm
Indexed as d 737 Hants debt Lovell, Matilda or Maud, of Romsey abbey, abbess vs. Gardener, John, of Romsey, hosier

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E4/CP40no837/bCP40no837dorses/IMG_0589.htm
Indexed as d 589 Kent debt Aleyn, Nicholas vs a Church, Richard, of Canterbury, husbandman; M--, John, of Northlane by Canterbury, tanner; Corke, Matilda, of Canterbury, widow

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my last post, I tentatively read the name of the wife of Thomas de Spayne in petition #18 as M[?alde]. I wasn't satisfied with my reading, as the lettering in this petition is not very clear. Matt Tompkins has since kindly re-checked the petition and he reads this name as Mode, or maybe Mude, or just possibly Made. Whatever the case, the name is not Matilda as indicated by the archivist. Because the name is not clear to either Matt or me, I'm withdrawing it from the cumulative totals. Thanks go Matt for double checking this petition for me.

The new item below, Petition #20, is for Mald/Mauld Fosbroke, the dry nurse of King Henry VI. This Chancery petition is taken from an online website entitled Corpus of Middle English Prose and Verse. I searched online Discovery catalog, but was unable to find the petition in question. Possibly a second search would turn up the petition.

Here is the name dispersion total of the various petitions, including #20 below, as of today:

Maud (7)
Maude (4)
Mald (1)

Mald/Mauld (1)

Maut (2)
Mahaut (1)
Matill (1)

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + +

20. This Chancery petition is taken from an online website entitled Corpus of Middle English Prose and Verse. The transcript of this petition is taken from yet another secondary source, An Anthology of Chancery English, by an anonymous author, published in 1984. I've transcribed the entire petition so the newsgroup readers can get a glimpse of the typical wording of a contemporary medieval document dated 1423. The modern author identifies the petitioner as Maud Fosbroke, drynurse. In the petition itself, however, the petitioner's name is spelled Mald and Mauld, which are variant forms of Maud.

Reference: 1423E28/40/18.

Date: 1423.

Petition of Maud Fosbroke, drynurse (first of three versions)

To þe hygh and myghty Prynce þe Duc of Gloucester and oþere of þe councell of our souuer aign lord þe kyng Lyke vn to þe hygh and discrete councell of oure souueraign lord þe kynges to gra unt vn to Mald ffosbroke drynorysse vn to oure said souuerai gne lord þe kyng x li by yere for as long as þam lykis and
to be paid yn whatt plasse þatþe said discrete councell will Assign for þe goode seruyse and entendauntȝ tat þe said drynorysse hath don fro þe day of þe berth of our souueraign lord vn to þis day consideryng þat þe said Mauld hath noþer reward As fee by for grauntede of our said lord for þe wach and laboure
þat scho hath had fro þe day as yit es aboven rehersid vn to þis day wherfor and yit lyke þe said hye and discrete councell to graunte þe said Mauld þe said x li yn þe way of Charitee and Almouse.

*. [(Another hand) Donee a Westminstre le xxviij jour Daurill Lan primier]

Note by DR: In 1444 Maud Fosbroke "sometimes the king's dry nurse" was granted two tuns of red Gascon wine from the king's wines in the port of London [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1441-1446 (1908): 332]. Tilley, Old Halls, Manors and Families of Derbyshire 3 (1899): 208 identifies the dry nurse as Maud Stafford, wife of John Fosbroke.

[Jan]

Maud Fossebroke's will (PCC) is available from TNA
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D968740
and at Ancestry.com
http://interactive.ancestry.com/5111/40611_311103-00282/869722

The TNA index describes this will as the "Will of Maude Fossebroke of Craneford, Northamptonshire." On Ancestry.com the testator's name is indexed as "Marte Fellverke."

The testament is written in Latin in the PCC register. I think the given name of the testator is written as Matild' where the last character is the same abbreviation we saw in some other documents written in Latin discussed recently. The date of the will is 21 December 1447 and the probate date in 27 February 1447/8 (the register actually says the year abovesaid). (Ancestry.com lists the probate date as 27 February 1443.)

Additional CPR entries mentioning Maud/Matilda Fossebroke may be read on the U Iowa website:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h6v1/body/Henry6vol1page0084.pdf (1423 April 27)
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h6v1/body/Henry6vol1page0452.pdf (1427 December 1)
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h6v1/body/Henry6vol1page0531.pdf (1428/9 February 9)
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h6v5/body/Henry6vol5page0165.pdf (1447/8 February 10)

TNA also lists the following documents related to this Maud/Matilda:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C4524951
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C9439993

There are also some entries in the Close Rolls of Henry VI in the 1440s (see British History Online).

The item Douglas quoted about this Maud is available here:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cme/ChancEng/1:119?rgn=div1;view=fulltext

One can search for Matil* in this collection of Middle English texts to find many examples of the use of the name Matilda in these old documents. An introduction and the search links are available here:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cme/

The petition of Maud Fosbroke is discussed in a recent book here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=AOwAP9d_8JYC&pg=PA232
Alicia Rodríguez Alvarez and Francisco Alonso Almeida, Voices on the Past: Studies in Old and Middle English Language and Literature (2004), 232.

Maud is also discussed in a recent book about Henry VI, Ralph Alan Griffiths, The Reign of King Henry VI: The Exercise of Royal Authority, 1422-1461 (1981), 52,
http://books.google.com/books?id=frWDmbf_mXEC&pg=PA52
and in the footnote on page 63,
http://books.google.com/books?id=frWDmbf_mXEC&pg=PA63

When Maud was admitted to the confraternity at St. Albans, her name appears in the list as "Matildis Foosbrok." See Henry Thomas Riley, Chronica Monasterii S. Albani Annales Monasterii S. Albani, a Johanne Amundesham, Monacho ... vol. 1 (1870), 21, available at
http://lollardsociety.org/pdfs/Amundesham_vol1.pdf#page=74

[Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)]

From: Jan [janwo***ich.edu]
Sent: 24 May 2014 08:49
<snip>

> One can search for Matil* in this collection of Middle English texts to find many examples of the use of the name Matilda in these old documents. An introduction and the search links are available here:
> http://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cme/
>

Yes, the Corpus of Middle English Prose and Verse would be a good place to obtain statistical evidence for the existence or absence of a vernacular forename Matilda. A very quick search against 'Matild' brings up only a small number of hits, and they may all be like Peter Langtoft's Chronicle, where queen Matilda is called that only in Latin-language marginal headings, and appears as Malde in the English-language text. Eg:

WHAN Henry herd telle þis of þat gode cheuysance,*. [De Matild filia Hen|rici regis.]
Of `of*. [Dele.] þe toþer Inglis, þat conseild Lowys of France,
þat suld haf bien his owen, & mad þe chance ouer grim,
& þei wer fulle wele knowen, þat wild haf tresond him,
How Gobion was certeyn, Thebaut his neuow stoute,
Turned Lowys ageyn, of lond þei chaced him oute,
Siþen with grete nobley, & with mykelle honoure,
Henry toke his way toward þe Emperoure,
To þe Emperour of Almayn his douhter to gyue.
Malde hight þat mayden, a fayrer mot non lyue.
þat mayden moder hight Mald þe gode quene,
Lady to maynten right sen sho was has non bene.
Now has kyng Henry, þorgh þis weddyng,
Grete power & party ageyns a lordyng.
¶ Now Henry kyng leue nam at þe Emperour Henry,
& his sonne William, & went to Normundy.
He gaf William his sonne with skrite & `f*. [Sic. Sed f. delend. est.] seele fulle fre
To hold, als it was wonne, alle Normundie in fe.
To Thebaud of Plesance left with him of his meyne,
& vntille Inglond eft he turned ouer þe se.
IN his seuentend ȝere þat he regned kyng,*. [De morte Matildis Reginæ bonæ.]
Malde þe quene his pere in God scho did endyng.
At London at Saynt Poule's in toumbe is scho laid,
Criste þan haf hir soule meusk of hir men said.
If any man wille witen, & se of hir storie,
At Westmynster written er þei redilie.

¶ þat ilk tyme so felle Mald þe Emperice com to lond,*. [Matildis Imperatrix venit in Angliam.]
þe castelle of Arondelle open ageyn hir fond.

IN his sextend ȝere Steuen þat þe lond auht,*. [De morte Matildis Imperatri|cis, & de forma scri|pti inter Stephanum & Henri|cum filium Imperatri|cis.]
Mald scho died here, hir soule to God betauht.

Matt

[Jan]

Hi Matt,
I would be interested in your comments about the use of the name Matilda in this work:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cme?didno=AHB1341.0001.001;rgn=full+text;size=25;sort=occur;start=1;subview=detail;type=simple;view=reslist;q1=Matil*

[Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)]

From: Jan [janwolf***ich.edu]
Sent: 24 May 2014 16:06

> Hi Matt,
> I would be interested in your comments about the use of the name Matilda in this work:
> http://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cme?didno=AHB1341.0001.001;rgn=full+text;size=25;sort=occur;start=1;subview=detail;type=simple;view=reslist;q1=Matil*
>

That's an interesting one, Jan. At first blush it looks rather bad for Douglas' thesis - John Trevisa seems to have been in no doubt that the Latin forename Matilda or Mathildis should be translated into English as Matilda or Matildis.

But when one looks at other forenames in the text, it becomes evident that for some strange reason when translating Higden's Latin original into Middle English Trevisa left many, perhaps most forenames in their Latin form. In those 18 lines revealed by the search one can see, alongside a few English forms such William and John, many Latin forms such as Malcolinus, Eustachius, Henricus (several times, though Henre once), Galfride (once, though Gefray once), Norbertus, Ranulphus. It's rather odd, Trevisa is all over the shop on this point, though he seems more often to leave forenames in the original Latin than to translate them.

So I think Douglas should have little difficulty explaining the Polychronicon evidence away.

Matt

[Jan]

Here is another interesting Maud/Matilda example: Maud/Matilda de Caux/Cauz. It would be interesting to find a contemporary document written in a vernacular language to see what given name was used for Matilda/Maud de Caux/Cauz.

In the Fine Rolls of Henry III Project
http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/search/search_text.html
a search for Matilda yields 702 results. A search for Maud or Maude yields zero results. The search finds results in the modern English translations of the original (Latin) documents. I looked at the images of the corresponding membranes for the first four instances of Matilda. The text in these membranes looks to me like
1. Matillid'
2. Matild'
3. Matillis
4. Matild

In the translations, the women are
1. Matilda who was the wife of Robert Murdac (1217)
2. Matilda de Caux (1217)
3. Matilda de Caux (1217)
4. Matilda de Albo Monasterio (1218)

There are eleven entries mentioning Matilda de Caux in the Fine Rolls of Henry III Project. The last two in 1224 and 1225, after her death, name her heir, John of Birkin, and the heir to her dower lands, Richard of Gloucester, nearest heir of her late husband. In both these entries, her given name in Latin is a form of Matild'. Perhaps someone can check the other seven images mentioning Matilda de Caux to see if the name is always written in Latin as some case or abbreviation of Matilda.

The director of the Fine Rolls of Henry III Project, David Crook, wrote a commentary about the struggle of Maud de Caux to regain her hereditary forest in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. See
http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/month/fm-01-2006.html
In the commentary, Crook calls his subject Maud, not Matilda.

There are a number of footnotes in Crook's commentary. Footnote 11 refers to an entry in the Patent Rolls, also in Latin, see
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h3v1/body/Henry3vol1page0123.pdf
Again, the Latin version of this woman's name is a form of Matilda.

Crook also wrote a biography of Robert of Lexington, a son of Richard of Lexington. Richard was perhaps Maud's illegitimate half-brother (son of her father Robert). See Crook's chapter in Laws, Lawyers and Texts: Studies in Medieval Legal History in Honour of Paul Brand, available in Google preview mode at
http://books.google.com/books?id=fKX-LpP4ALUC&pg=PA149
Both Crook's commentary about Maud and his chapter about Robert have a footnote to Rufford Charters, I, ed. C.J. Holdsworth, Thoroton Society Record Series, XXIX (1972), p. xciii. This work refers to Maud/Matilda as Matilda de Cauz but doesn't provide a direct quote from an original document.

Many secondary works refer to Maud/Matilda de Caux/Cauz as Maud rather than Matilda, but are there any documents from her lifetime, or soon after, that call her Maud rather than Matilda?

[Douglas Richardson]

My comments are interspersed below. DR

On Sunday, May 25, 2014 3:46:33 PM UTC-6, Jan wrote:

Thank you for your post. Much appreciated.

< In the Fine Rolls of Henry III Project
<
< http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/search/search_text.html
<

< A search for Matilda yields 702 results. A search for Maud or Maude yields
< zero results.

The original Fine Roll records are in Latin. The Latin name form Matilda would be the correct form to use in medieval Latin documents. No surprise there. What is surprising is that the Fine Rolls committee chose to use Matilda in their translations of these texts.

The issue of the Latin form Matilda versus the vernacular form Maud aside, I find that modern historians frequently leave other given names in their Latin forms in English translations such as Ebulo, Hamo, Egidia, Mariota, etc. This is a common problem among historians. Historians will show modern vernacular name forms for Robert, Edward, John, Henry, Peter, etc. (which is fine), yet leave many names (especially women's names) in their Latin form.

Even the great historian J.H. Round was inconsistent when dealing with the Latin form Matilda versus the vernacular form Maud. In his book, Feudal England, he used Maud half the time and Matilda half the time. Did he know Maud was the correct vernacular name to use? Probably. Why did he wobble on the name Maud. I have no idea.

< There are eleven entries mentioning Matilda de Caux in the Fine Rolls of <Henry III Project. The last two in 1224 and 1225, after her death, name her <heir, John of Birkin, and the heir to her dower lands, Richard of Gloucester, <nearest heir of her late husband. In both these entries, her given name in <Latin is a form of Matild'.

Since these records were written in Latin, one would expect the name of Maud de Caux to take the Latin form Matilda in the original records. I wouldn't expect anything different. Maud de Caux was surely an interesting lady, wasn't she?

< The director of the Fine Rolls of Henry III Project, David Crook, wrote a <commentary about the struggle of Maud de Caux to regain her hereditary forest <in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. See
<
< http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/month/fm-01-2006.html
<
< In the commentary, Crook calls his subject Maud, not Matilda.

David Crook is evidently aware that the vernacular form of Matilda is Maud.

I'm not so concerned about how any one particular historian handles the Matilda-Maud issue. Right now I'm more concerned with how the name Maud appears in contemporary vernacular records. It is the vernacular records which tell us what an individual's actual name was (or a close proximity).

[Peter Howarth]

There are two separate issues involved in this matter:
(i) what versions of Maud/Matilda were used in the three languages of mediaeval England, and
(ii) what name(s) might be used in modern English to represent such versions.

Looking at mediaeval usage, we can start with Latin as being the most formal register and of the highest status. In older documents, pre-1200, the name is Mathildis, a third declension noun. This was not a genuine Latin name but an attempt to render the Old German Mahthildis ('mahti', strength + 'hildi', battle). It also occurs as Matillis and Matildis.

Then something peculiar happens. Mathildis is gradually replaced by Matilda, a first declension noun. Why? Presumably because it was no longer based on the Old German Mahthildis but on some other version of the name.

It certainly wasn't based on the French version of the name. Douglas Richardson has researched many examples of documents written in French. Unsurprisingly, they all use the French versions of Mahaut, Molde, Maud and so on. From these we get the surnames Maud(e), Mahood, Mold, Moult, Mowat and several others.

This leaves the English version as the source for Matilda. From 1200 onwards, English was the common language, in both senses of the word. It was the mother tongue of everyone except the royal family, a genuine vernacular, but had the lowest status of the three languages. It was rarely used as a language of record and unfortunately I have been unable to find anything helpful in literary sources. Jacqueline de Weever in 'Chaucer Name Dictionary' (1996), available here,
http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/garland/deweever/0LISTS/0listm.htm
does not give any examples that might refer to either name. Nor have I been able to find anything relevant in 'Sir Gawain and the Green Knight' or in Coghill's translation of 'Visions from Piers Plowman'.

We are therefore left with only inferences. All the other Germanic languages, Flemish, Dutch, German, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish, all use Mathilde or very similar, all of them pronounced with three syllables like Matilda. There are then the series of surnames like Till(y), Tillison, Tilson, Tillet, Tillotson, which Reaney derives from Matilda via the diminutive Till or Tillot. It therefore seems highly likely that the English version of the name was pronounced Matilda.

But much more important that the history of the names is the question of what the modern version of the name might be. We no longer use the mediaeval Jehan or Wauter (to quote from Douglas Richardson's documents) but John and Walter. So for modern nomenclature, mediaeval usage is not always a great deal of help.

According to Withycombe, 'The Concise Dictionary of English Christian Names' (1977), both Matilda and Maud were rare in the 16th and 17th centuries. However Matilda was revived in the middle of the 18th century and 'became a great favourite'. Maud returned in the later 19th century, possibly as a result of Tennyson's 'Come into the garden, Maud' (1855). Dunkling, 'First Names First' (1977) says that in 1870 Maud was the 39th most popular girl's name in England and Wales and, with four other names, 38th in America. Matilda was not in the top fifty in either country but was still 'being regularly used'. By the 1950s, out of 10,000 female births, Matilda does not reach 1 in the USA, but has 3 in Canada, 2 in England and Wales, and 2 in Scotland. Maud does not appear anywhere. By the 1970s both names had disappeared.

George Redmonds, 'Christian Names in Local and Family History' (2004) p 14, says
"...a name may have been revived in relatively recent times and given what has been called a 'learned' spelling, one that is far removed from the medieval pronunciation. That is true of Matilda and Agatha which are familiar to us now only in these learned forms. The evidence for their earlier pronunciation is in such vernacular spellings as Mald or Maud and Matill for Matilda, and Agace or Agass for Agatha. Surnames such as Mattleson and Agass confirm that, just as the surname Parnell reminds us of the colloquial pronunciation of Petronilla."
But thereafter he refers only to Matilda.

It therefore appears to be an open question about whether to use Matilda or Maud. Earlier twentieth-century books refer much more often to Matilda. In later books, Maud starts to occur more often, but the new Oxford Dictionary of National Biography for example still uses Matilda, even for Henry I's wife.

It therefore appears that either name will do and that we may each choose which one we prefer. We have certainly not got to the stage where we may say that only one is right and that the other must be wrong.

Peter Howarth

[Douglas Richardson]

On Thursday, May 29, 2014 4:58:03 AM UTC-6, Peter Howarth wrote:
< There are two separate issues involved in this matter:
<
< (i) what versions of Maud/Matilda were used in the three languages of <mediaeval England, and
<
< (ii) what name(s) might be used in modern English to represent such versions.

My goal, Peter, is not to determine the Latin form of this given name. That is clear as a bell.

Rather my goal is to find the correct English vernacular form of this given name, using contemporary medieval documents as a guide.

My research into the matter is just getting started. As such, I'm not ready yet to make any firm conclusions. I can say that there are more surprises coming.

[Jan]

On Thursday, May 29, 2014 10:46:00 AM UTC-4, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>
> My goal, Peter, is not to determine the Latin form of this given name. That is clear as a bell.
>
> Rather my goal is to find the correct English vernacular form of this given name, using contemporary medieval documents as a guide.
>
> My research into the matter is just getting started. As such, I'm not ready yet to make any firm conclusions. I can say that there are more surprises coming.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

The information reported at this web address may be of interest to this research:
http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/3009.txt

It provides the following list:

Mathildis
Mathilda
Maltildis
* Mactilda 1154x69
* Mactildis 1154x89
* Matildis ca.1150, 1154x89, 1179, 1209
* Matill' 1206
* Matillis 1135x65, 1205, 1215
* Mautild 1199
* Mahald 1172x80
* Mahalt 1154x89
* Mahaut 1190
+ Mahildis 12th c.

* Melisant 1213
* Melisent 1201, 1221
* Melisentia 1208
* Milesent 1208
* Milisendis 1179

The introduction to the list says,
You asked if we could recommend given names appropriate for a noble
woman born around 1071 in or around what is today Normandy. Here is
what we have found.

Most sources from late 11th-century Normandy were written in Latin,
though the spoken language at this time was a dialect of Old French.
Below is a list of feminine names from late 11th- and early
12th-century Latin documents in and around Normandy. [1] We have
added to these some names found in England in the 12th and 13th
centuries that are derived from Old French names that were imported by
the Normans; they are marked with an asterisk. [2] Some of these
English spellings may not be appropriate for France, but we've
included them because it is quite reasonable for a woman born in
Normandy in 1071 to end up in England. Lastly, we have added some
additional 12th-century forms found in other Latin-language documents
from France; these are marked with a plus sign. [3]

Most of the names on this list are Latinized, generally by adding one
of the feminine grammatical endings <-is>, <-ia>, or <-a>. In some
cases, the original name can be recovered simply by dropping that
suffix, e.g. <Aelizia> probably represents Old French <Aeliz>. In
other cases, the Latin form differs from the French name in other
ways, often preserving an archaic form of the name, e.g. <Adeliza>
which probably also represents an Old French name like <Aeliz>,
<Aaliz>, <Aliz>, etc. In this list, an <x> between two dates
indicates that the name is found in a source which dates from sometime
between the two, and 'e.' stands for 'early'.

The footnotes are to the introduction are as follows:

[1] Delisle, Leopold, ed., _Rouleaux des Morts du IXe au XVe Siecle_
(New York: Johnson Reprint Corporation, 1968 [1866]).

[2] Talan Gwynek, "Feminine Given Names in _A Dictionary of English
Surnames_" (SCA: KWHS Proceedings, 1994; WWW: Academy of Saint
Gabriel, 1997).
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/

[3] Morlet, Marie-Therese, _Les Noms de Personne sur le Territoire de
l'Ancienne Gaule du VIe au XIIe Siecle_, three volumes (Paris: Centre
National de la Recherche Scientifique, 1972). Individual names can be
found in this source by using the index at the end of volume II.

[MILLARD A.R.]

> From: Peter Howarth [mailto:pgrho...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 29 May 2014 11:58

>
> It certainly wasn't based on the French version of the name. Douglas
> Richardson has researched many examples of documents written in French.
> Unsurprisingly, they all use the French versions of Mahaut, Molde, Maud
> and so on. From these we get the surnames Maud(e), Mahood, Mold,
> Moult, Mowat and several others.

These surnames do not come from Maud etc., but from the place Mold in Flintshire, as was clearly shown by George Redmonds in his 1973 book on surnames of the West Riding.

> This leaves the English version as the source for Matilda.

...

> unfortunately I have been
> unable to find anything helpful in literary sources.

Douglas's work, your searches and others have all failed to find any use of Matilda in either French or English documents. If it was used it must have been very rare.

If English was the origin of the form Matilda, I would suppose that it not appear in Latin documents from France. Can anyone confirm this?

> We are therefore left with only inferences. All the other Germanic
> languages, Flemish, Dutch, German, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish, all
> use Mathilde or very similar, all of them pronounced with three
> syllables like Matilda. There are then the series of surnames like
> Till(y), Tillison, Tilson, Tillet, Tillotson, which Reaney derives from
> Matilda via the diminutive Till or Tillot. It therefore seems highly
> likely that the English version of the name was pronounced Matilda.

But there is no evidence of any person being named as both Till(ot) and Matilda, so the diminutive is a supposition. On the face of it this looks sensible but it does become the only evidence for the use of Matilda in English, and I wonder if there was another name that gave rise to Till.

> George Redmonds, 'Christian Names in Local and Family History' (2004) p
> 14, says
> "...a name may have been revived in relatively recent times and given
> what has been called a 'learned' spelling, one that is far removed from
> the medieval pronunciation. That is true of Matilda and Agatha which
> are familiar to us now only in these learned forms. The evidence for
> their earlier pronunciation is in such vernacular spellings as Mald or
> Maud and Matill for Matilda, and Agace or Agass for Agatha. Surnames
> such as Mattleson and Agass confirm that, just as the surname Parnell
> reminds us of the colloquial pronunciation of Petronilla."
> But thereafter he refers only to Matilda.

Here I think Redmonds is only partly correct. Although Mald and Maud are attested in vernacular documents, the searches I referred to above have only found Matill' as an abbreviated form in Latin documents. And I cannot find evidence for Mattleson as an English surname prior to the 20th century, apart from a very few scattered and unconnected records where it seems more likely it could be a copying error for Mattheson.

> It therefore appears to be an open question about whether to use
> Matilda or Maud.

That is what I thought when this thread started, based on authorities such as Reaney and Redmonds. But I think there is now mounting evidence for absence of the form Matilda in medieval England, except in Latin documents.



Best wishes

Andrew
--
Andrew Millard - A.R.M...@durham.ac.uk
Chair, Trustees of Genuki: www.genuki.org.uk
Maintainer, Genuki Middx + London: homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/ + ../LND/
Academic Co-ordinator, Guild of One-Name Studies: www.one-name.org
Bodimeade one-name study: community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/Bodimeade/
My genealogy: community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/

[Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)]

I don't think the idea that Maud (and Mahaut, Mald, Malt etc) was a purely French form, unused by English-speakers who used Matilda instead, can stand up to scrutiny, Peter. There is quite a bit of evidence that Maud was also the English form.

First, there are surnames such as Maud, Mawde, Mald, Mawte, Mault, Maudson, Maulson etc. Some of these may have derived from Mold (or Montaut in France, as Reaney also suggested), but they cannot all have done (and I do not think Redmonds claimed this), especially not those in -son forms.

Then there is place-name evidence. There are many English place-names which incorporate Maud and its variants, but so far as I know none which incorporate Matilda. Among the many examples which can be found in the English Place-Name Society's county volumes are Mawdsley in Lancashire, Maulds Meaburn in Westmorland (Meburne Maud, 1244), Malt Cross in Brigg, Lincolnshire (ad crucem Matilldis, 1212; Maud Crosse 1638 and later) and Maud Hales Bridge in Abingdon, Berkshire (to which 3 extra arches were added c1430 by William Hales and Maud his wife).

Finally, there is the fact that by the end of the medieval period Maud had become so common a name that it entered the English language itself, as a generic word for an old woman. The OED entry is:

"maud, n.
Forms: 15 maude, 15�16 mawde.
Etymology: Probably < the female forename Maud (attested in English from the 14th cent.), ultimately < the Germanic name represented by Matilda (see Matilda n.). Compare e.g. mab, malkin, moll, etc.
In later use perhaps influenced by maudlin n.; compare mad maudlin and mad mawd, old maudlin and old mawd, all occurring in pejorative contexts in 17th-cent. dramatic texts.
Chiefly derogatory. Obs.
An old woman; a hag.

a1500 (a1460) Towneley Plays 176 Secunda Mulier. Mercy, lord, I cry! It is myn awne dere son. ijus Miles. No mercy thou mefe it mendys the not, mawd!
1532 T. More Confut. Tyndale in Wks. 685/1 So I see well Tindall meaneth for hys mother, some olde mother mawde.
1566 L. Wager Life & Repentaunce Marie Magdalene sig. Diiv, In good faith when ye ar come to be an old maude, Then it will be best for you to play the baude."

It's interesting to see the statement that the forename is attested in English from the 14C - clearly we must try harder to locate explicit examples of its use as a forename in English texts.

Matt Tompkins

________________________________________
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com [gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] on behalf of Peter Howarth [pgrho...@gmail.com]

Sent: 29 May 2014 11:58

To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Maud versus Matilda

[Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)]

From: MILLARD A.R.
Sent: 30 May 2014 09:26

>
> But there is no evidence of any person being named as both Till(ot) and Matilda, so the diminutive is a supposition. On the face of it this looks sensible but it does become the only evidence for the use of Matilda in English, and I wonder if there was another name that gave rise to Till.
>

Yes, I've been wondering about this. I don't know of any other medieval female baptismal name containing 'till', but of course Till might be a rhyming form, produced by substituting or prefixing an initial consonant. If one looks for names containing just -ill-, some candidates do pop up.

- Hillary (which could be a female name),
- William (which could also be a female name, Willelma in Latin, though I'm not sure what its vernacular form was - it gave rise to hypocoristic forms like Wilmot and Willmine),
- Julian/Gillian (from which many hypocorisms like Gill, Gillet),
- Gille (a female form of Giles - or perhaps a hypocorism from a female form of Gilbert?),
- Hilda or other names of Germanic origin incorporating it, such as Hildegarde.

Flicking through Trice Martin's list of Latin Christian Names and looking at the English equivalents also produces a number of names, some now rather obscure, which have -ill- in a medial or final position, though mostly in an unstressed syllable: Amphyllis, Sybil, Mabel, Mirabel, Anable (the modern spelling of the last three suggests they would perhaps be more likely to produce Tell, but the fact that they were usually Latinised with -il-, eg Amabilla, Amabilia, may justify their inclusion in the list).

But these are all just guesses, and will remain so unless one day someone finds a clear documentary link between Tille or Tillot and a baptismal name.

Matt Tompkins

[MILLARD A.R.]

> From: Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.) [mailto:ml...@leicester.ac.uk]
> Sent: 30 May 2014 15:20

>
> From: MILLARD A.R.
> Sent: 30 May 2014 09:26
> >
> > But there is no evidence of any person being named as both Till(ot)
> and Matilda, so the diminutive is a supposition. On the face of it this
> looks sensible but it does become the only evidence for the use of
> Matilda in English, and I wonder if there was another name that gave
> rise to Till.
> >
>
> Yes, I've been wondering about this. I don't know of any other
> medieval female baptismal name containing 'till', but of course Till
> might be a rhyming form, produced by substituting or prefixing an
> initial consonant.

Substituting or prefixing an initial consonant seems problematic to me, as I can't find any other diminutive that does that with T. (Ted for Edward is later.)

I've been digging in the library and found some possible names:

Hanks & Hodges in 'A dictionary of first names' give male name Till as 'Low German from a medieval pet form of Dietrich or other Germanic personal names with the same first element'. Could Till come from a form of the same name in English?

Elisabeth Okasha's "Women's names in Old English" (2011) lists Latin Tela, OE Tele from Domesday (http://opendomesday.org/name/513700/tela/). The meaning and origin is obscure but she does have 'cf male Tella'. In addition PASE lists male names Tila and Tile, as well as Tela, which is presumably Okasha's Tella. Perhaps this name could have persisted into the 14th century in its female form as Tille.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Last week I posted a Parliamentary petition dated 1315 submitted by the Abbess of Godstow [see below]. The name of the Abbess was not included on the actual petition. Rather it appears that the modern archivist supplied her name as Matilda Upton, even though he made no indication in his abstract that the actual name of the petitioner was not in the original record.

VCH Oxford 2 (1907): 75 identifies the Abbess of Godstow in 1315 as Maud Upton, who was elected in 1304, and died in 1316. Please see the following weblink for that information:

http://books.google.com/books?id=WZo4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA75

So was the name of the Abbess Matilda Upton as claimed by the archivist or was it Maud Upton as claimed by VCH Oxford?

To answer that question, one can consult the published English Register of Godstow Nunnery, near Oxford, Part II, edited by Andrew Clark, published in 1906 by the Early English Text Society.

The English register was prepared about 1450 from the original Latin cartulary of Godstow Abbey. The register contains several charters issued by or mentioning Maud Upton, Abbess of Godstow. In one charter, she is called "Molde Upton;" in the other five items, she is called "Moolde" and "Moolde Upton."

These records may be viewed at the following weblinks:

http://books.google.com/books?id=STnPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA415

http://books.google.com/books?id=STnPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA508

http://books.google.com/books?id=STnPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA564

http://books.google.com/books?id=STnPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA567

http://books.google.com/books?id=STnPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA568

http://books.google.com/books?id=STnPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA596

She is likewise called "dame molde Vpton, Abbesse of Godestowe" in a record dated 1306, which is found on page 507. This may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=STnPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA507

While these records are not contemporary to the lifetime of Maud Upton herself, they were in fact created in the medieval period from records in Latin which did mention her. As such, they would represent a good indication of the abbess' name as she would have been known in vernacular English about 1450. as such, I'm willing to include this information for Petition #8 in my name dispersion totals.

Adding the Godstow information to the mix, here is the name dispersion total of the various petitions as of today:

Maud (7)
Maude (4)
Mald (1)
Mald/Mauld (1)

Mold/Moold (1)

Maut (2)
Mahaut (1)
Matill (1)

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

P.S. I just checked the English register of Godstow Nunnery, Part II to see if there was any reference to the given name Matilda. I found one single reference on page 625. In sharp contrast, if I have counted correctly, there are 50 references to Molde/Moolde.

+ + + + + + + + + +

[Matt Tompkins]

From: MILLARD A.R
Sent: 30 May 2014 21:54

> Substituting or prefixing an initial consonant seems problematic to me, as I can't find any other diminutive that does that with T. (Ted for Edward is later.)
>

<snip>
>

There is Tibb, Tibbet, Tibble, Tibelot, which Reaney says can be from Isabel as well as Theobald.

Millicent could also be added to the list of female names which might have given rise to a hypocoristic Till.

Matt

[Jan]

Douglas,

Here are some additional books or records, written in English in the 1300s and 1400s, that provide examples of the given name Maud/Maude:

c1325
The Metrical Chronicle of Robert of Gloucester
https://archive.org/stream/metricalchronic02robe

c1400
The Brut or The Chronicles of England
https://archive.org/stream/brutorchronicles00brieuoft

1406, 1431, 1433
Fifty earliest English wills in the Court of Probate, London : A. D. 1387-1439
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cme/EEWills?type=simple&rgn=full+text&q1=Maude&submit=Go

1475
The Boke of Noblesse Addressed to King Edward the Fourth on his Invasion of France
http://books.google.com/books?id=MiVKAAAAcAAJ

You have identified many petitions written in French concerning women called Maud in the petition, but called Matilda in TNA abstracts. There are many petitions in the same set for which the name Maud in the petition is abstracted as Maud in TNA's catalog. (I even noticed at least one for which the person who wrote the abstract supplied the name Maud even though no given name was used in the petition.)

[Tompkins, Matthew (Dr.)]

I have just stumbled across an interesting collection of early occurrences of the forename Matilda/Maud in English records, in Thorvald Forssner's, Continental-Germanic Personal Names in England in Old and Middle English Times (Uppsala, 1916), pp. 181-2:

https://archive.org/stream/continentalgerma00forsrich#page/n3/mode/2up

He lists occurrences of the name from 11 sources (all printed in the 19C, so mostly available on-line, though they may not be as reliable as more recent editions). One of them is quite useless for our purpose - Freeman's History of the Norman Conquest (I'm unsure what significance Forssner drew from a 19C historian referring to 6 individuals as 'Matilda'). 8 of them are in Latin, though some do nevertheless provide some information about vernacular forms of the name. Most usefully, one is in French and one in Old English.

The OE source is the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, texts E and D. It contains three references to William the Conqueror's queen Matilda:
1067, Mathild
1083, Mahtild Will'mes cynges cwen
1100 cwene Mahalde

The French source is Jordan Fanstosme's Chronicle of the War between the English and the Scots in 1173 and 1174, written c.1175. It refers to Henry II's mother several times, as:
1175, Mahalt, Mahaut

The 1279-80 Hundred Rolls are written in Latin, but the matronymic surnames in it provide some evidence of vernacular female forenames, and Forssner quotes two examples of surnames derived from Maud/Matilda (I suspect the Rolls contain more):
1279, Machtild (surname)
1279, Maude (surname)

Several of the Latin texts take a mixed approach to forenames, latinising some and leaving others in their vernacular forms. For example, the Cartularium Monasterii de Rameseia (the Ramsey Cartulary), twice calls the mother of Simon de Beauchamp (fl 1124-30) Mahald, though on three other occasions it uses Matilda for other individuals, while the Durham hagiography Reginaldi Monachi Dunelmensis Libellus de Admirandis beate Cutherberti, written c1170, also uses Mahald for the wife of Simon de Senlis and David of Scotland. (This use of vernacular forms in Latin texts raises a doubt: when these sources call someone Matilda, is that always a latinised form, or might it sometimes be the vernacular name?)

A particularly fascinating example of this tendency is the Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmensis, a very lengthy list of hundreds of visitors to Durham cathedral and its predecessor institutions created between c840 and c1300, with some additional entries up to the 15th century. Most entries consist solely a forename, though some have a word or two extra, either a status, such 'king', 'queen', 'bishop', 'abbot', or a relationship (eg wife, son or daughter). The names themselves are sometimes latinised, sometimes not. Matilda/Maud occurs 57 times, mostly in the forms Matildis, Matild', Mahald and Maald, as follows:
Matillis 1
Mathildis 2
Matildis 20
Matild' 6
Matilda 1
Magtild 1
Mahtild 1
Mahald vel Matilda 1
Mahald 9
Mahild 1
Mahalt 3
Maholt 1
Mahaut 1
Maald 6
Mald 1
Mauld 1
Maulde 1

So what does this tell us? First, it suggests that in the period covered by these sources (broadly, before 1300) Mahald was the most popular vernacular form of the name, in both French and English, especially if minor variations such as Maald and Mahalt are taken into account. Maud appears to be a later development of the name, in the 14th and 15th centuries (the two closest forms to it in the Liber Vitae Dunelmensis, Mauld(e), appear in late sections of the list, probably added in those centuries).

Second, there is some slight evidence that a form like Matild was in use in English, though possibly only during this earlier period. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, written in Old English, refers to William I's queen as Mathild and Mahtild (alongside one later occurrence of Mahalde), and the surname Machtild occurs in Suffolk in the 1279 Hundred Rolls. It's interesting that this 1279 form is spelt -ch-. Taken with the 1083 ASC Mahtild and the Liber Vitae's two occurrences of Mahtild and Magtild it seems to hint that the English pronunciation may have involved a guttural -gh- or -ch- sound, as in Scottish loch.

Matt Tompkins

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

This past week Vance Mead kindly posted weblinks to several new indexes for medieval lawsuits in the Court of Common Pleas and Court of the King's Bench. Here are those weblinks again:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40_Indices.html
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/KB27Indices/KB27Indices.html

I'm most grateful for Ms. Simons and Mr. Mead's work in preparing these new indexes. Their work is literally herculean.

The new indexes include one prepared by Rosemary Simons for the Court of Common Pleas for 1422. The original Common Pleas records are in Latin. In each case Ms. Simons and Mr. Vance have provided a modern English equivalent for the name of each person in each lawsuit.

Among the lawsuits for 1422 are two that involve a well known medieval woman, Maud, Countess of Cambridge (died 1446), which lady was the step-grandmother of King Edward IV of England.

Here is Ms. Simons' index entry for this first lawsuit (the second one being identical to the first):

d 838 Yorks debt

Plaintiff: Clifford, Matilda, of York & Countess of Cambridge

Defendant: Mauleverere, Halnath, of Allerton Mauleverere, knight

The actual lawsuits are found on image 839d, not 838d. The weblink for the lawsuits is: http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no647/bCP40no647dorses/IMG_0839.htm

The plaintiff's given name in the Latin text is "Matill de Ebor' comitissa cantebrigg." No mention is made in the original text of the surname Clifford.

It is puzzling that the surname Clifford should be added by Ms. Simons, as at the time of the lawsuit, Countess Maud was the widow of Richard of York, Earl of Cambridge. Accordingly, she is correctly called Maud of York, Countess of Cambridge in the lawsuits. If Ms. Simons wishes to add a name, I believe she should do so in brackets, so that it is clear that as editor, she has added something not found in the original text.

As for the correct given name of Countess Maud in vernacular English, this woman is found in many records in her lifetime. As such, determining her actual name is quite an easy thing to do, be it Maud or Matilda.

In this case, there is a petition in French available for Countess Maud available through the online Discovery catalog. I've copied below the entry from the catalog, followed by the actual names of the petitioners. In this case, the modern archivist states that the petitioner's name is "Maud Clifford, Countess of Cambridge," whereas her name in the original text is actually "Maude Countesse de Cambrigge." Once again we find that the surname Clifford has been added to the index entry. And, again the surname Clifford is not set in brackets, which gives the reader the impression that the name Clifford is found in the original petition.

Reviewing the petition I have two comments to make. It appears that while the petition is in French, the names themselves are set in vernacular English. This fits the pattern of the other petitions written in French which I have examined earlier. Second, the catalog index entry is missing the name of John Melton, knight, who is named as one of the petitioners in the original text.

21. Reference: SC 8/27/1330

Petitioners: Maud Clifford, Countess of Cambridge; Alice, Lady of Deyncourt; John, Lord of Talbot and Furneville; mayor and community of the city of York; mayor and bailiffs of Kingston-upon-Hull; William Haryngton (Harrington), knight; Henry Perpouns, knight; Edmond fitz William, esquire; Thomas Clarell, esquire; community of the county of York

Name(s): Clifford, Countess of Cambridge; Lady of Deyncourt; Lord of Talbot and Furneville; Haryngton (Harrington); Perpouns; fitz William; Clarell, Maud; Alice; John; William; Henry; Edmond; Thomas

Addressees: Commons in parliament

Date: ?1422
Language: French

+ + + + + + + + +

Actual Names of Petitioners: Maude Countesse de Cambrigge, Aleys dame de Deyncourt, John s[ire] de Talbot & ffurnevale; mayor and community of the city of York; mayor and bailiffs of Kingston-upon-Hull; William Haryngton, John Melton, Hen. Perpound knights; Esmon ffitz William, Thomas Clarell, esquires.

Adding the above petition to the mix, here is the name dispersion total of the various petitions as of today:

Maud (7)
Maude (5)

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

This past week I found a published index to the Chancery and Exchequer petitions, which index was prepared many years ago separate from the online Discovery catalog. The exact title of the book is: Index of Ancient Petitions of the Chancery and the Exchequer, preserved in the Public Record Office (Lists and Indexes No. 1) (1892). It is available at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6NEPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16

Just for fun, I compared the published index against a few actual petitions and also against the entries in the online Discovery catalog. I found the old published index to be much more faithful to the original petitions than the Discovery catalog. For instance, when the published indexer encountered the name Maud or Maude, he rendered the name as Maud in the index. He did not convert the name into the Latin form Matilda. Also when he encountered the petition for the Abbess of Godstow (which had no given name or surname), he indexed it strictly as being a petition for the Abbess of Godstow. He did not insert the abbess name in Latin form without brackets as done in the Discovery catalog.

Is the old index perfect? No. In the first example below, I note that he read the name "Mald" as 'Yald." I also know of another petition which was misread.

Surely the indexers do the best job they can. Given the difficult medieval script and poor condition of some of the documents, I'm frankly amazed that they do as well as they do. I very much appreciate all of their efforts. Even so, I'm puzzled that the Discovery team made no use whatsoever of the earlier published index.

The entries below follow the numbers I earlier assigned to individual petitions as I pulled them from the Discovery catalog.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + +

1. Actual petition: Mald de Berklem of Brabant
Discovery catalog: Matilda de Berklem of Brabant
Published index of petitions: Yald de Berklem de Brabant

2. Actual petition: Maude Boutetourt.
Discovery catalog: Matilda Bouteteurt (Buteturte).
Published index of petitions: Maud Boutetourte.

3. Actual petition: Maud widow of Richard Schakyl.
Discovery catalog: Matilda Schakyl, widow of Richard Schakyl.
Published index of petitions: Maud late the wife of Richard de Schakyl.

4. Actual petition: Maud de Morton of Coventry
Discovery catalog: Matilda de Morton of Coventry.
Published index of petitions: Maud de Morton of Coventry

6. Actual petition: Maud de Nerford
Discovery catalog: Matilda de Nerford.
Published index of petitions: Maud de Nerford

7. Actual petition: Maude widow of Thomas Fitz Johan of Wengrave.
Discovery catalog: Matilda Fitz John, widow of Thomas Fitz John of Wingrave.
Published index of petitions: Maud late the wife of Thomas, son of John de Wengrave

8. Actual petition: Abbess of Godstow.
Discovery catalog: Matilda Upton, Abbess of Godstow.
Published index of petitions: Abbess of Godstow.

9. Actual petition: Maud late the wife of Robert Broun.
Discovery catalog: Matilda Broun (Brown), widow of Robert Brown.
Published index of petitions: Maud late the wife of Robert Broun.

10. Actual petition: Maude widow of William de Caryngton, knight.
Discovery catalog: Matilda Caryngton (Carrington), widow of William de Carrington, knight.
Published index of petitions: Maud late the wife of William de Caryngton.

[J. Sardina]

Hello,

Coming back to this old posting, does anybody who was Matilda, the wife William Caryngton?

In some works she is identified with de Ardene, but the book is not reliable:

"History and records of the Smith-Carington family, from the conquest to the present time : with full account of...."
pp. 42 43

There she is called daughter of Peter Arderne, second son of sir John Arderne.

She can not be the Matilda who married Robert de Legh.

J. Sardina

[Will Johnson]

John de /Arderne/ of Aldford and Alvanley; Knt
Heir of his father, a minor in 1308, a minor in 1317
IPM 23E3

was married three times
His third and last wife was
Ellen /Wasteneys/
third and last wife; married by 20E3

and it was by this wife that they had
Maud de /Arderne/
who m
Robert /Leigh/

[J. Sardina]

Yes. That is the one i had in mind. I did find some information about that Maud, and her children.
Assuming that the dates given for the Caryngtons are correct, the other Maud seems to have been her contemporary. and the Caryngton she married also died not far from the date of Robert Legh. There is at least one document in the National Archives that mentions the second Maud as being a widow of Caryngton, but I have not been able to find any sources for the identification of her family as de Arderne.

J. Sardina