Death of Pippin the Fat
Peter Stewart
Charlemagne's great-grandfather Pippin (the Fat) of Heristal is 16 December
714.
For instance, this is stated - without a source - by Eduard Hlawitschka in
'Die Vorfahren Karls des Grossen', _Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und
Nachleben_, Band I, Persönlichkeit und Geschichte (Düsseldorf, 1965) p. 62
and table. Christian Settipani in _La préhistoire des Capétiens 481-987_,
(Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993), p. 154, describes this date as traditional, also
giving no source. Neither of these authors refers to any other date or
discusses the matter further.
The annals of many monasteries record Pippin's death in 714, and the source
for 16 December is 'Annales Mettenses priores', edited by Bernhard von
Simson, MGH SSrG 10 (Hanover & Leipzig, 1905) p. 19: "Pippinus princeps...in
pace obiit XVII. Kal. Ian.". The same month, without a specific date, is
given in 'Annales Petaviani', edited by Georg Heinrich Pertz, MGH SS I p.
7: "domnus Pippinus mortuus est in mense Decembrio".
Although more definite than "tradition", these apparently derive from a
copied record of his burial rather than his death, as suggested by 'Annales
Sancti Amandi', edited by Georg Heinrich Pertz, MGH SS I p. 6: "depositio
Pippino in mense Decembrio".
Pippin died at Jupille near Heristal & was buried at Saint-Arnoul in Metz,
the church dedicated to his grandfather. In the necrology of Saint-Arnoul,
most likely to be accurate, his death was placed on 15 November: "XVII
kalendas Decembris. Pipinus dux" [see Joseph Depoin, 'Obits mémorables tirés
de nécrologes luxembourgeois, rémois et messins', _Revue Mabillon_ 6
(1910-1911) p. 265.
I don't know why this information should have been overlooked.
Peter Stewart
Nathaniel Taylor
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote:
> The date given by almost every modern historian for the death of
> Charlemagne's great-grandfather Pippin (the Fat) of Heristal is 16 December
> 714.
>
> For instance, this is stated - without a source - by Eduard Hlawitschka in
> 'Die Vorfahren Karls des Grossen', _Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und
> Nachleben_, Band I, Persönlichkeit und Geschichte (Düsseldorf, 1965) p. 62
> and table. Christian Settipani in _La préhistoire des Capétiens 481-987_,
> (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993), p. 154, describes this date as traditional, also
> giving no source. Neither of these authors refers to any other date or
> discusses the matter further.
>
> The annals of many monasteries record Pippin's death in 714, and the source
> for 16 December is 'Annales Mettenses priores', edited by Bernhard von
> Simson, MGH SSrG 10 (Hanover & Leipzig, 1905) p. 19: "Pippinus princeps...in
> pace obiit XVII. Kal. Ian.". The same month, without a specific date, is
> given in 'Annales Petaviani', edited by Georg Heinrich Pertz, MGH SS I p.
> 7: "domnus Pippinus mortuus est in mense Decembrio".
>
> Although more definite than "tradition", these apparently derive from a
> copied record of his burial rather than his death, as suggested by 'Annales
> Sancti Amandi', edited by Georg Heinrich Pertz, MGH SS I p. 6: "depositio
> Pippino in mense Decembrio".
>
> Pippin died at Jupille near Heristal & was buried at Saint-Arnoul in Metz,
> the church dedicated to his grandfather.
Settipani gives this place of death, also without citation, next to the
traditional 'death' date. What is the earliest source for place of
death? Is it connected to a date?
> In the necrology of Saint-Arnoul,
> most likely to be accurate, his death was placed on 15 November: "XVII
> kalendas Decembris. Pipinus dux" [see Joseph Depoin, 'Obits mémorables tirés
> de nécrologes luxembourgeois, rémois et messins', _Revue Mabillon_ 6
> (1910-1911) p. 265.
>
> I don't know why this information should have been overlooked.
Nor I. What was the occasion for your investigation and collation of
these notices? Did Depoin remark on this at all in commentary on the
text?
Would Pippin really have been buried as many as 30 days after his death?
Is it possible that the Metz annal (or its source) somehow changed xvii
kal dec into xvii kal ian, and is such a mistake common or uncommon?
Throwing out the separate significance of the date "xvii kal. ian."
would allow Pippin's burial to be earlier (as the Saint-Amand entry
doesn't specify date, so it could have been at the beginning of the
month). Finally, why is Pippin so declined in the Saint-Amand notice?
Was it supposed to have been an ablative absolute (deposito Pippino) or
just a nom.-gen. phrase (depositio Pippini)?
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
> Would Pippin really have been buried as many as 30 days after his
death?
>
> Nat Taylor
>
Dear Nat ~
In answer to your question, I recently located the burial date for
Margaret of France, 2nd wife of King Edward I of England. The record
was very specific as to the details of Queen Margaret's funeral and
burial. It indicated she was buried about 30 days after her recorded
death date.
In Queen Margaret's case, there is a plausible explanation for the
delay in her burial. According to the DNB, her step-son King Edward II
was in the north of England at the time of her death. If one figures
on a week for a messenger to arrive in the north with the news of the
queen's death, and two weeks for the king to return to London, and
another week to make the elaborate funeral arrangements, it works out
to a month of time.
So, yes, it's possible for it to take 30 days to bury someone of high
rank in the medieval time period.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Nathaniel Taylor
"Douglas Richardson royala...@msn.com" <royala...@msn.com>
wrote:
> Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
>
> > Would Pippin really have been buried as many as 30 days after his
> death?
>
> Dear Nat ~
>
> In answer to your question, I recently located the burial date for
> Margaret of France, 2nd wife of King Edward I of England. The record
> was very specific as to the details of Queen Margaret's funeral and
> burial. It indicated she was buried about 30 days after her recorded
> death date.
Dear Douglas ~
Thank you for your contribution. I'm not sure I would consider this
14th-century English datum as relevant to the practices of the
Merovingian aristocracy, though.
Peter Stewart
"starbuck95" <starb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115405081.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>I don't know why this information should have been overlooked.
>
>
> You'll have to do better than this if you want to get your _oeuvre_ up
> to the level of *scintillating* ...
"Big deal" or not - and no-one but you has come at it from this strange
tangent - are you suggesting that historians including Hlawitschka and
Settipani don't and/or shouldn't try to collect and consider all the sources
for any personage they study, much less one as important as Pippin the Fat?
Do you think Frankish rulers are less important in the scheme of things
historical and genealogical than colonial "gateway" ancestors, or don'y you
care when they died either?
Do you think Depoin's work should be left to moulder unnoticed because it
has been overlooked by most authorities since?
And are you still bogged down in what passes in your mind for wit about
"scintillation", John? This was another failure of yours to hit a mark - any
mark, even the ground beneath your target. I don't participate here to
entertain you or anyone else.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
news:nathanieltaylor-FB...@news1.east.earthlink.net...
> In article <qN2ee.2699$31....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> "Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> Pippin died at Jupille near Heristal & was buried at Saint-Arnoul in
>> Metz,
>> the church dedicated to his grandfather.
>
> Settipani gives this place of death, also without citation, next to the
> traditional 'death' date. What is the earliest source for place of
> death? Is it connected to a date?
I will try to answer this in detail later - I can't tell you off the top of
my head, but from memory it's a deducton rather than directly stated in a
source that Pippin died at Jupille.
>> In the necrology of Saint-Arnoul,
>> most likely to be accurate, his death was placed on 15 November: "XVII
>> kalendas Decembris. Pipinus dux" [see Joseph Depoin, 'Obits mémorables
>> tirés
>> de nécrologes luxembourgeois, rémois et messins', _Revue Mabillon_ 6
>> (1910-1911) p. 265.
>>
>> I don't know why this information should have been overlooked.
>
> Nor I. What was the occasion for your investigation and collation of
> these notices? Did Depoin remark on this at all in commentary on the
> text?
Depoin is one of the great firgures in the modern study of Frankish history
and genealogy, so it puzzled me that an article of his with such a promising
title should not even appear in the bibliographies of several later works on
the period, such as the ones cited before. That is why I sought it out, not
looking for details about Pippin in particular.
The occasion in more general terms was the work I have in (long, slow..)
progress, compiling tables of noble families in France from ca 750 to ca
1250 with all sources given (cited, transcribed and translated) for every
detail. This will be made available online one day, I hope, if someone with
better computer skills than mine will take it on - currently the material
runs to more than 1,600 pages and is very far from complete, so it will
never see print.
Depoin found the information about Pippin in an unpublished work of
Mabillon, titled 'Anecdota Alsatica', giving extracts from the oldest
necrology of Saint-Armoul at Metz. Apart from the correction to 15 November,
he remarked briefly on the rest of the entry regarding Pippin, specifying
his gift of Norroy ("Nugaretum cum appendiciis suis") to Saint-Arnoul. There
is a charter dated 20 February 691 for this donation, known from a 15th
century extract in which the text is not authentic.
> Would Pippin really have been buried as many as 30 days after his death?
I suppose we can't know - the weather in that season might have delayed the
journey with his corpse to Metz, or the ceremonies there might have been put
off for a time to allow important mourners to attend. There was no
particular Frankish custom as far as I'm aware that dictated the speed of
burial. With at least one Carolingian emperor (Charles the Bald), the timing
of his initial burial was simply a matter of smell - when this became
overpowering, they gave up taking him over the Alps and buried him
temporarily at Natua. A few years later he was reburied, permanently, in
Saint-Denis.
> Is it possible that the Metz annal (or its source) somehow changed xvii
> kal dec into xvii kal ian, and is such a mistake common or uncommon?
Yes, and this kind of discrepancy in dates is VERY common indeed in the
medieval period. For instance, Pippin's son Charles Martel is recorded in
the same Metz annals as dying on 22 October ("XI kal. Novembris") in 741,
but on 15 October ("Idibus Octobris") in the annals of Saint-Amand. Again, I
suspect this is because the Metz annalist used the date of burial instead of
actual death in recording his demise.
> Throwing out the separate significance of the date "xvii kal. ian."
> would allow Pippin's burial to be earlier (as the Saint-Amand entry
> doesn't specify date, so it could have been at the beginning of the
> month).
Certainly this could be the case. My only reason for suggesting a gap from
15 November to 16 December is that there is no evidence that one or other
source had mistakenly switched the month intended, and the Metz annals
(whether or not the same person was behind the records) seem to give later
dates than others fairly consistently, as with Charles Martel. (NB Depoin
didn't go into this question.)
> Finally, why is Pippin so declined in the Saint-Amand notice?
> Was it supposed to have been an ablative absolute (deposito Pippino) or
> just a nom.-gen. phrase (depositio Pippini)?
The full text of the 714 entry (in MGH SS I p. 6) is:
"depositio Grimoaldo in mense Aprili, et depositio Pippino in mense
Decembrio".
Assuming the editor has this literally correct, I guess it was just a monk
who didn't bother himself overmuch about Latin.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
Most of your comments are too glib to be taken seriously - once again, I
post when I have something to say, and you don't control this.
Peter Stewart
"starbuck95" <starb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115474364....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I see you are still taking everything I say very seriously and
> responding at length.
>
Peter Stewart
"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathani...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-FB...@news1.east.earthlink.net...
<snip>
> Would Pippin really have been buried as many as 30 days after his death?
> Is it possible that the Metz annal (or its source) somehow changed xvii
> kal dec into xvii kal ian, and is such a mistake common or uncommon?
> Throwing out the separate significance of the date "xvii kal. ian."
> would allow Pippin's burial to be earlier (as the Saint-Amand entry
> doesn't specify date, so it could have been at the beginning of the
> month).
Support is given for his burial having taken place in mid-December by
'Annales Tiliani', MGH SS I p. 6 (in parallel with the closely-related
'Annales Sancti Amandi' quoted earlier): "depositio Pippini in medio
Decembrio". If the necrology of Saint-Arnoul is correct about his dying on
15 November, this would make it more plausible that he was actually buried
in Metz on 16 December.
As to the place of his death, I haven't yet found any particular evidence to
deduce that this was necessarily at Jupille near Liege as almost unanimously
stated by historians. I will keep looking into this - for the time being, I
have only found that on 2 March 714 he was ill nearby at Bakel, unable to
attest his own charter and forced to leave this duty to his wife ("Actum
Bagoloso villa publice, die secundo Martii. Anno IIII. regni domini nostri
Dagoberti regis. Et quia nos propter egritudinem in ipsa carta scribere non
potuimus, Blittrudem coniugem nostram rogavimus et potestatem dedimus, ut
ipsam firmare ad nostram vicem deberet", see MGH Diplomatum imperii I no. 6
p. 96).
Perhaps he was never well enough after that to travel far. According to
Egmondanus in his supplement to 'Annales Xantenses' (MGH SSrG 12 p. 36) he
died "apud Francorum gentem", and for what little that is worth it may have
been presumed ever since to mean in his principle place of residence - he
was organising a council to reform the Church at the time, so was probably
as active as he could be at the centre of affairs.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:Nbife.6466$31....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Perhaps he was never well enough after that to travel far. According to
> Egmondanus in his supplement to 'Annales Xantenses' (MGH SSrG 12 p. 36) he
> died "apud Francorum gentem", and for what little that is worth it may
> have been presumed ever since to mean in his principle place of residence
Or even his principal place of residence - though as a good Frank he was
probably never far from his principles!
Peter Stewart
Nathaniel Taylor
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote:
> As to the place of his death, I haven't yet found any particular evidence to
> deduce that this was necessarily at Jupille near Liege as almost unanimously
> stated by historians. I will keep looking into this - for the time being, I
> have only found that on 2 March 714 he was ill nearby at Bakel, unable to
> attest his own charter and forced to leave this duty to his wife ("Actum
> Bagoloso villa publice, die secundo Martii. Anno IIII. regni domini nostri
> Dagoberti regis. Et quia nos propter egritudinem in ipsa carta scribere non
> potuimus, Blittrudem coniugem nostram rogavimus et potestatem dedimus, ut
> ipsam firmare ad nostram vicem deberet", see MGH Diplomatum imperii I no. 6
> p. 96).
>
> Perhaps he was never well enough after that to travel far.
In my experience 'egritude' is used for the state of being pretty much
on one's deathbed: it is part of the standard formula for deathbed
testaments in Septimania and Catalonia from the 9th century forward.
The only time I've seen 'egritude' used in a perfect tense to describe
one's own earlier condition, is in a unique testamentary charter in
which the act is couched in the first-person voice of one already dead:
a 'will' of 1062 (from La Seu d'Urgell), which opens "Ego Berengarius
dum jacebam in egritudine unde obivi..." (!).
Peter Stewart
but distance is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.
I wonder if it can be established that Pippin went any further afield
between his illness at Bakel around 2 March 714 and his death allegedly at
Jupille on 15 November of the same year. Perhaps there is no evidence for
this.
Peter Stewart
"Hans Vogels" <volu...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:a300f298.05050...@posting.google.com...
> Peter,
>
> Bakel-Bagoloso was a village in the Southeast of the province of Noord
> Brabant in the Netherlands. "Close" to the Belgian border. Nowadays it
> is the village Gemert-Bakel, eastwards to my hometown Helmond (east of
> Eindhoven). The abby of Echternach had dominial possessions there
> originating from the Karolingians.
>
> Hans Vogels
>
> "Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:<Nbife.6466$31....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
Hans Vogels
Bakel-Bagoloso was a village in the Southeast of the province of Noord
Brabant in the Netherlands. "Close" to the Belgian border. Nowadays it
is the village Gemert-Bakel, eastwards to my hometown Helmond (east of
Eindhoven). The abby of Echternach had dominial possessions there
originating from the Karolingians.
Hans Vogels
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message news:<Nbife.6466$31....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
Peter Stewart
Yes, but Pippin was evidently active again between 2 March and his death
more than 8 months later. Perhpas he recovered from a grave illness, or at
least rallied - I doubt there were many conditions which even a great lord
could be expected to survive without remission over 8+ months in the 8th
century.
Peter Stewart