the Reid, from scotland, medieval roots and places
M.Sjostrom
One of my forefathers, or his patriline, came in late 1500s from Scotland to Finland.
Is anyone familiar with where there in Scotland resided families names Reid?
Or even about this guy already in Scotland?
This ancestor of mine was David Reid, who is attested in Finland in around 1600 and up to 1620s. He was military officer, which indicates he was from scottish armigerous family, trained to warfare. General circumstances speak for him being a younger son, like so many of those Scots who settled to foreign service.
He married in Finland a lady whose baptismal name is lost but whose father had been a Niilo (= Nicholas). They had three attested children: captain Alexander Reid, Anne Mary Reid, and David Reid (the younger).
Where there in Scotland resided families names Reid? Where was some remarkable medieval base or bases of armigerous family/families named Reid?
Was there any Reid family in mid- or late-1500s, whose son David is known to have gone to direction of Finland?
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Barskimming, Ayrshire, of Collestoun and of Pitfoddels. I have data
on the barskimming family, who are unlikely to be the ones for you.
Adam Reid of Barskimming was the son of Bernard Reid, who was dead by
1570. Adam married Jean Campbell in 1551 (disposition) and had four
daughters, Joan married to John Wallace of Auchinweill, with an heir
Hugo who was of age in 1606, Janet married to Henry Stewart fourth son
of Andrew second Lord Ochiltree, with an heir Adam Stewart who married
Maria Ross in 1610 (MC), an un-named third daughter who had a son John
Spottiswood of Furlare, her heir and of age in 1606, and lastly
Margaret who married William Campbell of Grenoch Mains, without
issue. This family of Reid seems to have died out; Barskimming is
near Mauchline and was later owned by the Dalrymples of Stair.
Sources: RMS Vols III-VI; Scots Peerage sub Ochiltree
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Methlick, Aberdeenshire, married about 1548 Jean daughter of Sir
Robert Carnegie 5th of Kinnaird. He had a son Andrew who married
(conjoint charter from his father 1586) Margaret dau of William Chene
of Arnage and neice of Mr Patrick Chene. Gilbert also had a younger
son Alexander, who might have been the progenitor of a family of
academic Reids.
If you know what his arms were, that would identify the family.
M.Sjostrom
The Arms of the Reid which became registered in the Swedish and Finnish institutions of heraldry, is depicted in:
http://www.riddarhuset.se/jsp/index.jsp?id=553&state=2&postId=682
-
the name Reid may be common in Scotland, but the presumed armigerous quality of the family in question limits much of the search.
Certainly it was not one of the most common armigerous names?
Circumstances speak for the ancestor (whomever it was) to have been a military, worthy enough to move a long trek to service of another country.
Duvall, Jeffery A
This may be of some interest to others on the list, as back in 2003 Brice Clagett argued that if CP was correct in its undocumented identification of Katherine Curzon, wife of Nicholas Griffin of Braybrook (1426-1482), as the daughter of a Richard Curzon, then we need look no further than this Richard Curzon, and his wife Isabel, for her parents.
Strangely enough, Mr. Clagett and I had discussed a Godard connection just a couple of years ago, as I had found an entry in the online version of the CPR (dated 28 September 1451) in which Richard Curzon's widow was referred to as Isabel Godard. At the time, however, we both believed that this indicated that Isabel had married a Godard following Richard's death in 1450. Now, it appears that instead she had reverted back to her earlier husband's name. Additionally, there is no indication in the CPR that Richard Curzon had any heirs aside from Isabel (the entry in question deals with farm on the mines of Devon and Cornwall that had been granted to Richard Curzon in 1441 for a term of 20 years), although I'm not sure if a daughter and son-in-law (Nicholas Griffin and Katherine Curzon were married by 1450 according to the CP) would have been included in the arrangements or not.
At any rate, we may be one step closer to identifying the family of Richard Curzon's wife. Whether or not that takes any closer to identifying Katherine Curzon Griffin's ancestry is, I think, still something of an open question.
Jeff Duvall
jdu...@iupui.edu
Jef...@iquest.net
Alex Maxwell Findlater
If he was of one of these families, I doubt that he would have changed
his arms, unless he married an heiress and took those of her family.
They look more Scadinavian than Scots. However, lots of Scots,
especially from the east coast, did go to Scandinavia.
James Dempster
It is worth checking three books by T.A. Fischer (1844-1906), The
Scots in Germany (1902), The Scots in East and West Prussia (1903) and
The Scots in Sweden (1907). Between them they cover a great many Scots
who settled round the Baltic coast and given the political upheavals
in that area in the last 500 years, there may well be coverage of
Reids who are in modern Finland.
Transcripts of the books are available on the electricscotland website
at http://www.electricscotland.com/history/books.htm numbers 29, 30
and 88.
Hope that they are some use
James
James Dempster
You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.
Ian Goddard
Isabella is also referred to as Goddard c. 1458 "In 36 Henry VI it was
found by a jury that Ralph Bygod, kt., John Salvain, kt., William
Bulmer, esq., and Lady Isabella Goddard had the presentation to the
mastership [of the College of St. James, Sutton-In-Holderness] and to
one of the five chantries of the collegiate church"
(http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=36304 item 206)
The younger Sir John had holdings in Lincolnshire around Ingoldmells but
I haven't found any references to this Lincolnshire connection going
back as far as the older Sir John's time. It's possible, of course,
that he received these holdings in his own right but an alternative is
that they could have come via his wife in the same way that the older
Sir John acquired his Holderness properties via Constance Sutton. It
might be worth looking for some Lincolnshire connection for Isabella.
--
Ian
Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk
John Watson
> Duvall, Jeffery A wrote:
> > Last year there was a discussion of the family of Sir John Godard (d. ca. 1393) and his wife Constance Sutton. At the time, it was noted that their children included daughters Agnes (wife of Sir Brian Stapleton), Maud (wife of Robert Wadesley), and Margaret (who married Thomas Ughtred), as well as sons Sir John (d. 1420) and Henry (who died d.s.p.). Today I've just seen a transcript of Henry Godard's IPM in vol. 23 of the *Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, 6-10 Henry VI, 1427-1432* (2004), no. 666, p. 345, and have discovered that the wife of Sir John Godard (d. 1420), and mother of his son John (d. a minor on 23 August 1430), was the same Isabel who was married (in 1423) to Richard Curzon/Curson, esquire of the body to Henry VI, Capt. Of Honfleur, etc.
>
> > This may be of some interest to others on the list, as back in 2003 Brice Clagett argued that if CP was correct in its undocumented identification of Katherine Curzon, wife of Nicholas Griffin of Braybrook (1426-1482), as the daughter of a Richard Curzon, then we need look no further than this Richard Curzon, and his wife Isabel, for her parents.
>
> > Strangely enough, Mr. Clagett and I had discussed a Godard connection just a couple of years ago, as I had found an entry in the online version of the CPR (dated 28 September 1451) in which Richard Curzon's widow was referred to as Isabel Godard. At the time, however, we both believed that this indicated that Isabel had married a Godard following Richard's death in 1450. Now, it appears that instead she had reverted back to her earlier husband's name. Additionally, there is no indication in the CPR that Richard Curzon had any heirs aside from Isabel (the entry in question deals with farm on the mines of Devon and Cornwall that had been granted to Richard Curzon in 1441 for a term of 20 years), although I'm not sure if a daughter and son-in-law (Nicholas Griffin and Katherine Curzon were married by 1450 according to the CP) would have been included in the arrangements or not.
>
> > At any rate, we may be one step closer to identifying the family of Richard Curzon's wife. Whether or not that takes any closer to identifying Katherine Curzon Griffin's ancestry is, I think, still something of an open question.
>
> Isabella is also referred to as Goddard c. 1458 "In 36 Henry VI it was
> found by a jury that Ralph Bygod, kt., John Salvain, kt., William
> Bulmer, esq., and Lady Isabella Goddard had the presentation to the
> mastership [of the College of St. James, Sutton-In-Holderness] and to
> one of the five chantries of the collegiate church"
>
> The younger Sir John had holdings in Lincolnshire around Ingoldmells but
> I haven't found any references to this Lincolnshire connection going
> back as far as the older Sir John's time. It's possible, of course,
> that he received these holdings in his own right but an alternative is
> that they could have come via his wife in the same way that the older
> Sir John acquired his Holderness properties via Constance Sutton. It
> might be worth looking for some Lincolnshire connection for Isabella.
>
> --
> Ian
>
> Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
> at nildram co uk
Hi Ian,
Just an additional detail - Sir John Goddard the younger died on 10
April 1421:
"20 July 1421: Inquisition post mortem. Sir John Godard; Sutton,
Braunceholm, Stanefery, Gaunstede, Conyngeston, Frothyngham,
Rolleston, Hornseburton: Died 10 April 1421. His son and heir John
Godard, aged 3".
Reference: University of Hull, Brynmor Jones Library, DHO/7/6
http://slb-archives.hull.ac.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=Search.tcl
Regards,
John
Ian Goddard
Thanks for the reminder about this, John. AFAICR from when I tried to
pin them down they're all East Riding. Which gives even more weight to
the possibility that the Lincolnshire lands were really his wife's.
John Watson
>
> Thanks for the reminder about this, John. AFAICR from when I tried to
> pin them down they're all East Riding. Which gives even more weight to
> the possibility that the Lincolnshire lands were really his wife's.
>
> --
> Ian
>
> Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
> at nildram co uk
Hi Ian,
The above reference is to John Godard's Yorkshire inquest post mortem.
Possibly there was another ipm in Lincolnshire.
Regards,
John
M.Sjostrom
Also the genealogist Jully Ramsay in her book (publ around 1900) about Finnish rälssi families,
depicts the same Arms of the Reid, lower part having three balls,
upper part havuing the man with the long axe or spike axe or whatever that is.
However, this basically just means the Arms they registered in the House of Nobles in c1650s and/or much later (1700s),
but does not say an attestation what was the Arms used by David Reid, in early 1600s/late 1500s.
It's, imo, just a good assumption that already he had those Arms, but there's a couple of generations when another Arms could have been inherited or obtained.
His Arms could be preserved somewhere, but I am not aware for now where...
Renia
> One of my forefathers, or his patriline, came in late 1500s from Scotland to Finland.
>
> Is anyone familiar with where there in Scotland resided families names Reid?
> Or even about this guy already in Scotland?
Surprisingly, there are no families by the name of Reid mentioned in:
1. Scottish Clan and Family Names - Their Arms, Origins and Tartans
2. Scottish Clan and Family Encyclopedia
They are not even indexed as a sept of a parent clan. I had always
thought Reid to be a Scots' name, but this does not seem to be the case.
I suspect it is a Scots' corruption of a Northumberland name Reed/Reeth.
James Dempster
wrote:
A much better source of Scots surnames than clan books is "The
Surnames of Scotland" by George F. Black originally published in 1946
and in many editions since.
Reid has quite a long entry (almost a full column in my 1999 edition).
As Rede (as opposed to Latin Rufus) he notes a Gilbert le Rede of Coul
committed to prison in 1296 and Red as a surname in Aberdeen in 1317.
He notes the surname as one of the oldest in the parish of Kildrummy
(also Aberdeenshire). Patrick, dictus Rede in an assize in Rane 1335
(probably Rayne, Aberdeenshire). John Reed, collector of tithe in
Stormonth & Atholl (basically Perthshire) in 1362. James Reed, baillie
of Stirling 1364.
He notes that "Reeds were at one time a numerous clan in Kyle. The
first of the name there recorded is probably William Rede, son of John
Reede who had a confirmation of the lands of Bairskemyn in 1375.
John Rede in the parish of Morton 1376
William Rede held Wester Pitfodellis (Aberdeenshire) in wadset from
his cousin Alexander de Moravia in 1389.
William Rede dominus de Ranystoun (Rainniestoun) present at
perambulation of lands of Tarwas (Tarves) and Uldny (Udny) in 1417.
All these places in Aberdeenshire.
Wil Red, tenant of Wester Drumme in 1474
Joseph Reid (1843-1917) inventor of the Reid Oil Burner was from
Ayrshire.
General John Reid (1721-1807) was paternally a Robertson who
Anglicised the patronymic of the Strathardle Robertsons (Clan Ruadh)
as Reid. On the back of this the Robertsons and many clan/tartan books
try to claim Reid as a sept.
Aberdeenshire and round the north-east coast is quite a stronghold and
it could well have partially merged with Reith and Rait, the latter
surname coming from Rait in Nairnshire (Sir Gervase de Rathe, knight,
Constable of Invernairn in 1292) and there being another branch at
Hallgreen in the Mearns.
Reids from the north east are known to have emigrated to the Baltic
region, one of the best known being Thomas Reid, who having graduated
from Aberdeen in the early 1600s became Professor at Rostock and was
later secretary to King James. I don't know if he was connected to the
later Thomas Reid (successor to Adam Smith in the Chair of Moral
Pholosophy at Glasgow).
In Sweden, Fischer notes Agneta Gipson, wife of Jacobi Reid dying in
Gothenburg in 1579. He also notes Reid town councillors in Stockholm
without going into detail.
M.Sjostrom
if the name version 'Reeth' (or very like) was in actual use in Scotland or Northumbria, please provide near-contemporary, authentic quotations.
This is because it's either a good evidence, or a big coincidence, for relationship.
Because, in Finland and Sweden, this family's surname became used often as 'Reet' and 'Reeth'. It was actually much later matriculated with the verson 'Reeth' in the House of Knights institution.
---
I didnt find any Reid or Reet from the book Fischer, The Scots in Sweden (1907). Perhaps I am not careful enough, but at least there were no mentions of placenames linked in finland to this family, no biograophy of a Reid...
Also I observed that several other Scots known to have settled to finland, are lacking from that book. such as John Lichtoun (perhaps 1610s) and Robert Guthrie (late 1500s).
---
some internet pages appear to mention some
the Reid of Aikenhead
a medieval family. What's that and where they were from?
---
I assume the Reid surnamed ones can as well be celts whose some name has anglified to that, or a Northumbrian/Saxon lineage settling to Scotland... Is there even any probability of which alternative were more likely?
----
which things in this Reid family's Arms make them so Norse? as opposed to scottish?
Is there any element in these Arms being Scottish-like?
or Northumbrian-like?
Kathy
they immigrated, I have no proof only family lore. My Reid line is
much more recent, it was my grandmothers maiden name, and she had said
it was of English descent. Have toyed with the idea that rather than
English, it could be Scottish, but haven't really dug deep into that
branch as of yet. Does anyone with this surname in their history know
of any Reids who immigrated to the Lower Island Cove, Conception Bay,
Newfoundland, Canada region. It wouldn't fall under the scope of
medieval history, it would be much more recent perhaps in the early to
mid 1700's. Am just curious.
Kathy
Renia
Kathy
Been there, and done that, the furthest record found for my Reids
are in a 1799 plantation book for the Lower Island Cove, Conception
Bay, Newfoundland region, even found a section on Lower Island Cove
Tidbits.
REID:
David Reid entry date 1799 in Plantation Book.
One early LIC baptism is of Jane Reed b. 10 Mar 1812 to Mary Reed. The
1832 Voter's List LIC has Thomas Reed & Joseph Reid named.
William Reid m. Sarah ?
I. John Reid bap 30 Aug 1829 m. Magdalene ?
1. Albert Reid b. 25 Jan 1849
2. Hezekiah Reid bap 1 Dec 1850
II. Joseph Reid bap 17 Aug 1834 m. Maria ?
1. Susanna Reid b. Sep 1840
2. Mary Ann Reid b. 7 Feb 1843
3. Willis Reid b. 26 Feb 1849
4. Hester Anne Reid b. 10 Jun 1851
III. James Reid bap 17 Aug 1834
IV. Sarah Reid b. 30 Jul 1837
V. Thomas Reid (possible child) m. Letitia ?
1. Mary Jane Reid b. 10 Nov 1845
2. Charles Reid b. 9 Mar 1848
3. Leah Reid b. 10 Nov 1850
A Thomas Read died in 1843 at age 56 and so born circa 1787. Also a
Mary Reed died in Apr of 1840 at age 50 and so born circa 1790.
. Thomas Reid is my line he married Letitia Steele, my line descends
through Charles Reid my 2x great grandfather. His son Caleb (1882)
immigrated to Somerville, MA circa 1900 and married a woman from yet
another Lower Island Cove family Eliza Faulkner(name is usually seen
as Fagner, but Fagner is noted to be an early corruption corrected by
some of the later generations of the family). Anything prior to that
and I seem to be almost deadlocked. One theory I have is that it
could be that my original Reid ancestor to Newfoundland was a soldier
probably in the American Revolution, and like many of the settlers in
Canada, received a land grant upon discharge of the Army. Or another
possibility, is that he did not settle in Canada first, but rather
immigrated maybe from the States prior to or around the American
Revolution. Just ideas at this point. . .Would you be a descendant of
the Newfoundland Reids?
Kathy
cdj...@gmail.com
cdj...@gmail.com
On Tuesday, August 26, 2008 at 10:43:19 PM UTC+10, M.Sjostrom wrote:
