Gerberga, wife of Foulques II "the Good" of Anjou
Alan B. Wilson
I am aware that many of the links suggested by Settipani, in his
recent essay on the counts of Anjou, for a maternal pedigree for Gerberga
were offered quite tentatively. Since I did not otherwise have any
maternal ancestry for her, I proceeded to enter these suggestions to see
how they might fit with what I had. I thought the result might be of some
interest and might possibly earn me some corrections or extensions.
First Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
1 Gerberga of Gatinais.[233, iii, 116; xiv, 116],[74, 118:20],[73, p.
4],[226],[467],[376, see ³Anjou² 21, p. 24],[315, pp. 262, 274],[329,
8],[405, p. 232],[151, see 167:36],[104, p. 6],[82, 401:25*] Born in
915.[467] Gerberga of Gatinais died in 952; she was 37.[233],[467, + (bef
952)]
In 937 when Gerberga of Gatinais was 22, she married Foulques II "the
Good" of Anjou Count[233, ii, 187; iii, 166; xiv, 116],[74, see 53:21,
118:20],[73, p. 4],[253],[376, ³Anjou² 21, p. 24],[467],[315, pp. 262,
274],[329, 8],[409, p. 299],[151, 167:36],[104, p. 6],[82,
401:24*->502[786]].[233, viv, 116 =]
Second Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
2 Geoffrey Count of Gatinais.[233, xiv, 116],[73, p. 1],[467],[329,
8],[151, 53:34],[82, 401:16->965] Born in 890.[467, *] Geoffrey was alive
in 933.[233, viv, 116] was alive in 942.[233, viv, 116] Geoffrey died bef
942; he was 52.[467, +] Count of Nevers {926-935}; Count of Gatinais
{935-941}.[467]
3 Aba / Ava of Arverne.[467, p. 247] Born in 890/895.[467, p. 247 *] Aba /
Ava of Arverne died aft 942.[467, p. 247 +]
Third Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
4 Aubri Viscount of Orleans.[233, xiv, 166],[73, p. 1],[467],[151,
53:35],[82, 965:02] Born in 855/860.[467] Aubri was alive in 886.[233,
viv, 116]
6 Hector of Arverne.[233, xv, 104],[467, p. 247],[253],[315, p. 274] Born
in 860.[467, p. 247 *]
7 Aba / Ava.[467, p. 247],[435] Born in 865.[467, p. 247 *] Aba / Ava died
aft 893; she was 28.[467, p. 247 +] Abbess of Sauxillanges {893}.[467, p.
247],[233, iii, 731] Nun then abbess at Cluny.[435]
Fourth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
8 Geoffrey of Gatinais.[73, p. 1],[467, ?],[151, 53:36],[82, 965:04] Born
in 830.[467]
14 Bernard Plantevelue Count of Auvergne.[233, iii,
731],[401],[402],[435],[463],[467, p. 247] Born on 22 Mar 841 in
Uzès.[233, iii, 731 *@],[419],[435, * (841)],[467, p. 247 * (841] Bernard
Plantevelue died in 885/886; he was 43.[233, iii, 731 +],[467, p. 247 +
(aft 883)] Count of Aquitaine and the Auvergne.[419] Marquis of Gothie;
Count of Autun, Count of Rodez.[467],[233, iii, 731]
15 Ermengarde.[233, iii, 731, 734B],[435],[467, p. 247] Born in 845.[467,
p. 247] Ermengarde died aft Jun 881.[233, iii, 731 +],[467, p. 247 + (aft
883)]
Fifth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
16 Aubri "Dux" Viscount of Orleans.[73, p. 1],[151, 53:37],[82, 965:08]
Aubri "Dux" was alive in 886.[73]
28 Bernard I Count of Autun.[233, iii, 731, 817],[73, pp. 213-215,
232],[401],[402],[435],[463],[327, chart W],[328, 72:3],[151,
329:39],[104, p. 10],[82, 513:18*->624] Bernard I was alive in 804.[233,
iii, 734B] was alive in 827.[435] Bernard I died in 844 in executed
Toulouse.[419],[435, +] Count of Autun, Margrave of
Septimania.[151],[233],[419] Chamberlain of Louis "the Pious".[151]
On 29 Jun 824 Bernard I married Dhuoda,[104, p. 10],[82, 513:19], in
Aix-la-chapelle (Aachen).[419],[233]
29 Dhuoda.[233, iii, 731],[73, pp. 213-215, 232],[401],[402],[435],[327,
chart W],[328, 72:3],[151, see 329:39],[104, p. 10],[82, 513:19] Born ca
804.[419] Dhuoda died aft 2 Feb 843.[233] Countess of Agen.[419] More:
Duchess of Septimania.[419]
30 Bernhard Count of Auvergne.[233, iii, 731, 734B],[467, p. 247],[421, p.
151, n. 21] Born in 815.[467, p. 247 *] Bernhard was alive in 848.[233,
iii, 734B] Bernhard died in 868; he was 53.[467, p. 247 +]
31 Lieugardis.[233, iii, 731, 734B] Lieugardis was alive in 849.[233, iii, 734B]
Sixth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
56 William I Count of Toulouse.[233, iii, 731],[73, pp. 213-215,
232],[401],[402],[435],[463],[327, chart W],[328, 72:2],[151,
329:40],[104, p. 10],[82, 624:02*] Born in 751.[467, p. 247 *] William I
was alive in 789.[435] William I died in Gellone on 28 May 812; he was
61.[82],[151],[233, iii, 731 +@] Count of Toulouse, Margrave of
Septimania (Narbonne).[233]
57 Kunigunde.[233, iii, 731],[73, pp. 213-215,
232],[401],[402],[435],[327, chart W],[328, 72:2],[151, see 329:40]
58 Sancho-Lupus Duke of Gascony.[419] Born ca 772.[419] Sancho-Lupus of
Gascony died in killed in battle in ?Aragon in 816[419] Duke and "Prince"
of Gascony by 800.[419]
59 ? Aznarez.[419]
60 Warin Count of Chalon.[467, p. 247] Born in 775/780.[467, p. 247 *]
Warin died in 853.[467, p. 247 +] Count of Chalon {828}.[467, p. 247]
Count of Macon {835}.[467, p. 247]
61 Alba of Autun.[467, p. 247] Born in 780.[467, p. 247 *]
Seventh Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
112 Thierry (Theoderic) Count of Autun.[233, iii, 731],[73, pp. 213-215,
232],[401],[402],[435],[463],[327, chart W],[328, 72:1],[151, 329:41;
326:39],[104, p. 10],[82, 605:18->624:04] Thierry (Theoderic) was alive in
755.[233] Thierry (Theoderic) died bef 805.[233, iii, 731 +]
113 Aude \ Aldana.[233, iii, 731],[73, pp. 213-215,
232],[401],[402],[435],[327, chart W],[328, 72:1],[151, see 329:41],[104,
o. 10],[82, 605:19->624:05] Aude \ Aldana died bef 805.[233, iii, 731 +]
116 Lupus Duke of Gascony.[233, ii, 49 (³Lope²)],[419]
ca 770 Lupus married ? of Cantabria[233, ii, 49],[419].[419]
117 ? of Cantabria.[233, ii, 49],[419]
118 Aznar I Galindez.[233, ii, 52],[151, 292:43],[82, 597:04] Aznar I
Galindez was alive in 0808.[233, ii, 52] Aznar I Galindez died ca
839.[233, ii, 52] Count of Aragon, Gascony and Urgal.[151]
120 Isembhard Count in the Thurgau.[467, p. 247] Born in 750.[467, p. 247
*] Isembhard died in 806; he was 56.[467, p. 247 +]
122 Theodoen Count of Autun.[467, p. 247],[435],[233, iii, 731] Born in
745.[467, p. 247 *] Theodoen died bef 804; he was 59.[467, p. 247 +]
Eighth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
226 Charles Martel King of the Franks.[233, i, 2; iii, 731],[74, 190:11;
191:11],[73, pp. 5, 213-215, 232],[84],[85],[463],[405, p. 165],[151,
171:43; 114:42],[104, pp. 8, 171],[82, 601:16*->701[105]] Born abt
676.[405],[233, i, 2 *] Charles Martel died in Quierzy, Aisne, France on
22 Oct 741; he was 65.[233, i, 2 +] Buried in Monastery St. Denis,
Seine.[83] King of the Franks.[233] Mayor of the Palace of Neustria &
Austrasia.[83]
227 Rotrude (Chotrude).[233, i, 2],[74, 50:11],[73, p. 5],[85],[405, p.
171],[151, see 171:43],[104, p. 171],[82, 601:17*->702[105]] Rotrude
(Chotrude) died in 724.[85],[233, i, 2 +]
234 Fruela of Bardalia Count.[233, ii, 49],[73, p. 82],[419],[151,
276:42],[82, 600:02] Fruela of Bardalia died ca 765.[233] Count of
Bartulio.[151] Count of Cantabria.[233],[419]
236 Galindo.[151, 292:44]
244 Thierry (Theoderic) Count of Autun. Same as Number 112, above.
245 Aude \ Aldana. Same as Number 113, above.
REFERENCES
73. Moriarty, George Andrews, The Plantagenet Ancestry of King Edward III
and Queen Philippa, Salt Lake City, Utah: Mormon Pioneer Genealogy
Society, 1985.
74. Weis, Frederick Lewis, Ancestral roots of certain American colonists
who came to America before 1700; 7th ed., with additions and correctiuons
by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr. ; assisted by David Faris, Baltimore, MD:
Genealogical Publishing Co., 1992.
82. Call, Michel L., Royal Ancestors of Some American Families ; Pedigree
Charts., Printed by the author, 1991.
83. Call, Michel L., Royal Ancestors of Some American Families: Family
Group Sheets, Reproduced by the author, 1991.
84. Reid, Denis, ³GENEALOG.ROY GEDCOM,² ROOTS-L, 28 Nov 1994.
An ancestry of William Arthur Philip Windsor, son of Prince Charles Philip
Arthur Windsor & Lady Diana Frances Spencer.
85. Houdry, Gilles, ³Les Ancetres de Charlemagne. Version 3,
GENEALOG.CHARLAN on ROOTS-L,² August 31, 1994.
104. Turton, William Harry, The Plantagenet ancestry, Baltimore, MD:
Genealogical Publishing Co., 1993.
151. Stuart, Roderick W., Royalty for commoners : the complete known
lineage of John of Gaunt, . . . second edition, Baltimore: Genealogical
Pub. Co., 1992.
226. Greene, David L., ³The Royal Ancestry of the Ipswich (Massachusetts)
and Long Island Lawrence families.,² The Genealigist, X(1), Spring 1989
(pub. 1994), 3-30.
233. Schwennicke, Detlev (ed.), Europaische Stammtafeln : Stammtafeln zur
Geschichte der europaischen Staaten / begrundet von Wilhelm Karl Prinz zu
Isenburg ; fortgefuhrt von Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven ; neue
Folge herausgegeben vonŠ., Marburg: Stargardt, 1978-<1995 >.
253. Bachrach, Bernard S., State-building in medieval France: studies in
early Angevin history, Aldersgot,(Mamps) England: Variorum, 1995.
315. Bachrach, Bernard S., Fulk Nerra, the Neo-Roman Consul, 978-1040: a
political biography of the Angevin count, Berkeley: University of
California Press, 1993.
327. The Augustan Society, Descents from antiquity, Torrance, CA: The
Society, 1986.
328. Stone, Don Charles, Some ancient and Medieval descents of Edward I of
England, Philadelphia: the author, 1995.
329. Joannis, J. D. de, and R. de Saint-Jouan, Les seize quartiers
genealogiques des Capetiens, Lyon: Sauvegarde Historique, 1958.
376. Winkhaus, Eberhard, Ahnen Zu Karl Dem Grossen Und Widukind,
Westfalen, 1950.
401. Taylor, Nathaniel Lane, ³Descendants of 'Saint' William, duke of
Toulouse,² GEN-MEDIEVAL, 23 May 1997.
402. Bouchard, Constance B., ³Family structure and family consciousness
among the aristocracy in the ninth to eleventh centuries,² Francia, xiv,
1986, pp. 639-658.
405. Settipani, Christian, La prehistoire des Capetiens: 481-987,
Nouvelle histoire généalogique de l'auguste maison de France, Vol. i, pt.
1, Villenueve d'Ascq : Patrick Van Kerrebrouck, 1993.
409. Glocker, Winfred, Die Verwandten der Ottonen und ihre Bedeutung in
der Polotik : Studien zur Familienpolitik und zur Genealogie des
sachsischen Kaiserhauses, Koln : Bohlau, 1989.
419. Malan, Ronald F., ³The Ancestry of Dhouda, Duchess of Septamania,²
The Genealogist, xi, Spring, 1997, pp. 116-126.
421. Nelson, Janet L. (Tr. & an.), The Annals of St-Bertin : Ninth-Century
Histories, Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1991.
435. Taylor, Nathaniel L., ³Sant William, King David, and Makhir,² The
American Genealogist, lxxii, Jul/Oct 1997, 205-223.
463. Dillange, Michel, Les comtes de Poitou, ducs d¹Aquitaine (778-1204),
Mougon, France: Geste Editions, 1996.
467. Settipani, Christian, ³Les comtes d¹Anjou et leurs alliances aux Xe
et XIe siecles,² K.S.B. Keats-Rohan (ed.), Family Trees and the Roots of
Politics, Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK: Boydell Press, 1997, 211-267.
--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
Cristopher Nash
Alan, this looks really productive. Thanks for it, and I want to follow it
through. Might you clarify - are you ok (satisfied with) Settipani's
reworking to integrate as Gerberga's maternal line Bachrach's suggestion
for a paternal line (in place of Gatinais). I.e. are we taking into
account Bachrach's "Some Observations on the Origins of Countess Gerberga
of the Angevins: An Essay in the Application of the Tellenbach-Werner
Prosopographical Method", _Medieval Prosopography 7_ , no. 2 (1986), 1-23 ?
The article has been criticized online, and it'd be helpful to see how the
solution works....
Thanks!
Cris
Alan B. Wilson wrote on 11/12 May 98:
> I am aware that many of the links suggested by Settipani, in his
>recent essay on the counts of Anjou, for a maternal pedigree for Gerberga
>were offered quite tentatively. Since I did not otherwise have any
>maternal ancestry for her, I proceeded to enter these suggestions to see
>how they might fit with what I had. I thought the result might be of some
>interest and might possibly earn me some corrections or extensions.
>
>First Generation
>ããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããã
>
>1 Gerberga of Gatinais.[233, iii, 116; xiv, 116],[74, 118:20],[73, p.
>4],[226],[467],[376, see „Anjou¾ 21, p. 24],[315, pp. 262, 274],[329,
>8],[405, p. 232],[151, see 167:36],[104, p. 6],[82, 401:25*] Born in
>915.[467] Gerberga of Gatinais died in 952; she was 37.[233],[467, + (bef
>952)]
>
>In 937 when Gerberga of Gatinais was 22, she married Foulques II "the
>Good" of Anjou Count[233, ii, 187; iii, 166; xiv, 116],[74, see 53:21,
>118:20],[73, p. 4],[253],[376, „Anjou¾ 21, p. 24],[467],[315, pp. 262,
>274],[329, 8],[409, p. 299],[151, 167:36],[104, p. 6],[82,
>401:24*->502[786]].[233, viv, 116 =]
>
>
>Second Generation
>ããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããããã
>
>2 Geoffrey Count of Gatinais.[233, xiv, 116],[73, p. 1],[467],[329,
>8],[151, 53:34],[82, 401:16->965] Born in 890.[467, *] Geoffrey was alive
>in 933.[233, viv, 116] was alive in 942.[233, viv, 116] Geoffrey died bef
>942; he was 52.[467, +] Count of Nevers {926-935}; Count of Gatinais
>{935-941}.[467]
>
>3 Aba / Ava of Arverne.[467, p. 247] Born in 890/895.[467, p. 247 *] Aba /
>Ava of Arverne died aft 942.[467, p. 247 +]
>
Etc ...
Todd A. Farmerie
Cristopher Nash wrote:
>
> Alan, this looks really productive. Thanks for it, and I want to follow it
> through. Might you clarify - are you ok (satisfied with) Settipani's
> reworking to integrate as Gerberga's maternal line Bachrach's suggestion
> for a paternal line (in place of Gatinais). I.e. are we taking into
> account Bachrach's "Some Observations on the Origins of Countess Gerberga
> of the Angevins: An Essay in the Application of the Tellenbach-Werner
> Prosopographical Method", _Medieval Prosopography 7_ , no. 2 (1986), 1-23 ?
It has been a while since I looked at Settipani, but I can tell you that
the Bachrach theory presented in Med Pros is specifically addressed by
Settipani as part of his analysis.
taf
Cristopher Nash
Thanks a lot Todd (forgive my impatience to learn this - I know, I could've
waited till next week & checked in the Bod -- and for having posted you
erroneously a recent note on <Re: Dammartin links to Clermonts & Clares>
meant for Gen-Med; it's these bloody endless doctoral exam boards, like
clamps on my wheels both metal & mental).
Cris
Nathaniel Taylor
In article <abwilson-110...@abwilson.hip.berkeley.edu>,
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu (Alan B. Wilson) wrote:
>7 Aba / Ava.[467, p. 247],[435] Born in 865.[467, p. 247 *] Aba / Ava died
>aft 893; she was 28.[467, p. 247 +] Abbess of Sauxillanges {893}.[467, p.
>247],[233, iii, 731] Nun then abbess at Cluny.[435]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<snip>
>435. Taylor, Nathaniel L., łSaint William, King David, and Makhir,˛ The
>American Genealogist, lxxii, Jul/Oct 1997, 205-223.
Sigh. This is my mistake, an editing blub (and to my knowledge the only
one of its kind in the published article). This Ava was abess at
Sauxillanges, as Settipani says; she was attested in charters from the
Cluny collection: these points got conflated. After all Cluny, a male
monastery, was founded in 911. Sorry!
As for the relationship to Gerberga, I don't think it's that hot an idea
to render this notion of Settipani's (which I didn't read carefully yet
but which seems to be supported mostly by onomastic coincidences which
aren't all that compelling) into database/ahnentafel form and then post
it. This is how other people's databases get filled with lines which
originated just as speculation.
Nat Taylor
Cristopher Nash
Nat Taylor wrote on 12 Jun:
>In article <abwilson-110...@abwilson.hip.berkeley.edu>,
>abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu (Alan B. Wilson) wrote:
>
>
>>7 Aba / Ava.[467, p. 247],[435] Born in 865.[467, p. 247 *] Aba / Ava died
>>aft 893; she was 28.[467, p. 247 +] Abbess of Sauxillanges {893}.[467, p.
>>247],[233, iii, 731] Nun then abbess at Cluny.[435]
[snip]
>As for the relationship to Gerberga, I don't think it's that hot an idea
>to render this notion of Settipani's (which I didn't read carefully yet
>but which seems to be supported mostly by onomastic coincidences which
>aren't all that compelling) into database/ahnentafel form and then post
>it. This is how other people's databases get filled with lines which
>originated just as speculation.
>
>Nat Taylor
I worry about that too. But in this case, got to say, Alan did give rubric --
>I thought the result might be of some interest and might possibly earn me
>some corrections or extensions.
That helps a lot, I think. Not just as caveat; induces (rather than
suppresses) questions; creat./crit. spirit, wot? I agree, form can
freeze fluids into a semblance of fact, but it lays quick-bare some
specious patterns that get muffled in expository waffle. Swings and
roundabouts, I'd say.
Cris
Nathaniel Taylor
In article <l03102803b1a791d15254@[137.205.97.11]>,
en...@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Cristopher Nash) wrote:
>Nat Taylor wrote on 12 Jun:
>
>>... This is how other people's databases get filled with lines which
>>originated just as speculation.
>>
>I worry about that too. But in this case, got to say, Alan did give rubric --
>
>>I thought the result might be of some interest and might possibly earn me
>>some corrections or extensions.
>
>That helps a lot, I think. Not just as caveat; induces (rather than
>suppresses) questions; creat./crit. spirit, wot?
Yes, absolutely; except that for every reader who ponders a weak link or
raises an issue of nuance or discrepancy, there may be a dozen who
cold-bloodedly download, strip all caveats, and incorporate into their own
databases. As you know, I'm a crusader against the bogus and the
spurious; database apathy lies close to the root of genealogical evil.
Nat Taylor
Todd A. Farmerie
Speaking of which . . . If you have a chance, please take a look at
the following (temporary) web site. It should be looked at as a
"concept" demonstration, far from a finished product. (I have not even
had a chance to mock up a model bibliography, nor are all of the
internal links incorperated, and there remain lapses in formating
continuity.) Still, I am interested in your reaction, particularly to
the last section - the "answers", and the accompanying criteria for
inclusion (more general impressions since they are all first drafts).
http://pharmacology.cwru.edu/test/test.htm
Todd
Cristopher Nash
Your last clause holds the thought - the snag - that 'worries' me; the
extenuations I offered work for the (unwearyingly? not say sometimes
wearyingly) wary. (I'm sticking with my argument [snipped in your message
to save space] about the benefits in posting even uncertain connections in
a standardized form, however mistakenly the 'unwary' may thus take them as
fact. At the very least a protocol must be devised to flag in
_high-profile_ the existence of known alternatives -- if they're not to be
_given_ 'on site', which in my view they should -- that will actually
_block_ the unproblematic [e.g. mechanical] insertion of problematic data
into reader's database. Here's where e.g. E.S. is horrendously
underdeveloped; cf. my posting of 8/6/98 on <RE: Vermandois/Anjou: the case
of "Adelaide">) Meantime I'm with you.
Cris