Griffith - Willoughby - Somerville (CHARRON and SAVOY)
GLAUC...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
<< I assume that Joan de Charron, the heiress of lands in Northumberland,
who married (lst) Bertram de Monboucher (died 1332), and (2nd) Richard
de Willoughby, Chief Justice of the Common Bench, was the daughter of
Guiscard de Charron, Knt. (died 1314), of Horton in Blyth,
Northumberland, Sheriff of Northumberland, 1308-9, Knight of the Shire
for Northumberland, 1311, constable of Bowes castle, justice of assize,
by his wife, Alice, daughter of Thomas, Lord Lucy of Cockermouth
[Reference: Archaeologia Aeliana, 4th Series, vol. 20 (1942), pg. 40].
Guiscard de Charron in turn was the son of an earlier Guiscard de
Charron, Knt., of Horton in Blyth, Northumberland, Sheriff of
Northumberland, 1268-72, keeper of Bowes castle, forester of Richmond,
constable of Richmond Castle, justice, by his lst wife, Isabel de
Horton, an heiress [Reference: Ibid, pg. 35].
Guiscard de Charron, the elder, in turn was the son of Guiscard de
Sabaudia, steward of Richmond, 1243, who was brother of Peter de
Sabaudia [Reference: Ibid.].
As I recall, Peter de Sabaudia is the man more commonly known as Peter
of Savoy, who was close kin to Eleanor of Provence, Queen of King Henry
III of England.
Does anyone have any additional particulars on the Charron-Savoy
families? I assume if Joan Charron was related to Peter of Savoy, she
would possess Carolingian ancestry. And, assuming Alice de Lucy was
her mother, Joan Charron would also descend from the early Scottish
kings.
All for now. Douglas Richardson
In article <1c31fd54...@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com>, Douglas
Richardson <royala...@msn.com> wrote:
> Hi Robert:
> If you study Payling's list of sources for the Willoughby
> family of Nottinghamshire, you will see that he refers to
> the following unpublished dissertation:
> M. Bloom, "The Careers of Sir Richard II de Willoughby and
> Sir Richard III de Willouighbym, Chief Justice of the
> King's Bench (1338-1340) & the Rise of the Willoughbys of
> Nottinghamshire," D. Phil. thesis, Oxford, 1985.
> I believe you will find the information on the link between
> the Somerville and Willoughby families in that source.
> Incidentally, I see that Payling states that Sir Richard
> III de Willoughby married (lst) in 1310, to Isabel Morteyn
> (died 1332); (2nd) Joan Charron, widow of Sir Bertram
> Monboucher (died 1332); and (3rd) Elizabeth, widow of
> Richard Champernoun, of Modbury, Devon.
> Any ideas as to which wife was the mother of Sir Richard's
> daughter, Lucy, who married (lst) Sir Thomas Huscarle and
> (2nd) Nicholas Carew (died 1390)? I assume it was Joan
> Charron. If so, do you have her ancestry? Payling says
> Joan was the heiress of property in Northumberland but
> doesn't identify her parents.
> All for now. Best always, Douglas Richardson >>
Douglas,
I will check my notes when I return home to Dallas. I am in Austin this
weekend. I know that Surtees has a pedigree chart on
Charron-Monboucher-Harbotel families in his "History and Antiquities of the
County Palatine of Durham". I am almost certain, however, that it has no
mention of the Savoy connection. I would have remembered that. However, the
Durham volumes contain quite a few lengthy footnotes and may contain
something of interest.
This family is of interest to me since one of the Harbotel daughters married
into the Harding family who descend to my great-great-grandfather Ambrose
Harding Spoor. The Harbotels are also interesting since they seem to spring
from nowhere in the late 14th century. Perhaps they were new men.
In any event, I will scan my notes when I get home to see if I can find any
reference to the early Charron generations.
Regards,
Lloyd King
Dallas, Texas
Leo van de Pas
de Charron and Savoie.
Queen Eleanor de Provence was daughter of Beatrice of Savoie.
Beatrice had the follow brothers :
Amadeo IV, married twice and had five children
Umberto, died unmarried aged 25
Thomas, married twice, 5 legit, and 3 illegit children
Aimon, unmarried died aged roughly 38
Aimon, died in 1238 (two full brothers)
Guillaume, Bishop of Valence
Boniface, Prior in Nantua
Unberto
Amadeo
Peter, the one who came to England and became Earl of Richmond
married and had one daughter
Philippe married no children
Boniface, a saint and Archbishop of Canterbury
this adds up to twelve sons and there were 5 daughters.
If those Charrons have Savoie connections, it is not as spelled out below.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
GLAUC...@aol.com
GLAUC...@aol.com writes:
Douglas,
Okay, I am home in Dallas. There is no mention of a connection to Savoy in
Surtees. However, here are the notes from the pedigree chart which may be of
use to you:
Descent of Charron, Monboucher, Harbotel and Percy, Lords of Beamish and
Tanfield.
Guiscard de Charron; the Elder as you called him:
He first married Mary, daughter and coheir of Richard de Sutton, Lord of
Sutton on Trent, Nottinghamshire. He had free warren in Sutton on Trent in 18
Edward I, 1289. He was Lord of Beamish 1268-77. Philip de la Laye granted the
manor of Tanfield to Guiscard and Isabel by an undated charter.
Guiscard de Charron the younger: Lord of Beamish and Tanfield, and of
Suttton, co. Notts. Knight of the Shire for Northumberland 4 Edw. II. 1310,
Sheriff of the same county. His half-brother Stephen de Charron released the
manor of Sutton to him in 34 Edward I.
Joan de Charron: She was the sole daughter and heir upon whom her parents
settled the manor of Sutton-On-Trent, 3 Edward II, 1309, reserving 20 pounds
per annum and a red rose at midsummer.
Interestingly, the Willoughby name appears in several generations further
down this descent. For example, Bartram Monboucher, grandson of the Joan de
Charron above married Isabel Willoughby, daughter of Sir Richard Willoughby
of Wollaton, co. Notts, Knt. Surtees shows no children of this marriage.
5 generations later, Sir Guiscard Harbotel, son and heir in 1507 married
Jane, daughter of Sir Henry Willoughby of Woolaton, co. Notts, Knt.
So, the heirs of this property, whether Charron, Monboucher or Harbotel seem
to have retained contact with the Willoughby family for many generations.
Hope this adds to your information. It is interesting anyway.
Leo, thanks for your input that this connection may be wishful thinking. I
will watch the postings to see what comes of it.
Let me know if you want any more information from Surtees version of this
descent.
Douglas Richardson
regarding the parentage of Guiscard de Charron the elder:
"Son of Guiscard 'de Sabaudia' who was steward of Richmond in 1243.
In 1266 his uncle Peter 'de Sabaudia' made him keeper of Bewes castle
and forester of Richmond......"
By this I judge that Guiscard de Charron was son of Guiscard de
Sabaudia (Savoy), brother of Peter de Sabaudia (Savoy).
I can not attest for the accuracy of this information. If Mr. van der
Pas is correct, however, Peter de Savoy had no such brother named
Guiscard.
In related vein, I have confirmed that Guiscard de Charron, the
younger, was father of Joan de Charron who married (lst) Bertrand de
Monboucher and (2nd) Richard de Willoughby. This is stated as fact in
Roskell's series on members of Parliament in a biography of Joan's son,
Bertram de Monboucher, Jr. I didn't have time the other night to copy
the biography in question. I did scan the material long enough to
confirm that Joan was daughter of Guiscard de Charron the younger and
that Joan was heiress of the manors of Horton and Sutton upon Trent.
A couple of people have asked for information about the parentage of
Lucy Willoughby, wife of Nicholas Carew of Beddington, Surrey. One
source I consulted stated that her father Richard Willoughby was of
both Surrey and Nottingham. I assumed source was correct. Since that
time I've determined that Lucy's father was definitely of Surrey, but I
know of nothing to connect him to the Nottingham man. Payling, for
instance, doesn't make Lucy the daughter of the Nottingham man. My
guess is there were two Richard Willoughbys, one in Surrey and one in
Nottingham, and that someone falsely assumed they were the same man.
If someone has information which bears on this question, please post it.
Whether the Savoy connection bears out or not, Joan de Charron has
living descendants through her Monboucher marriage, namely the
Harbottle family. If Archaeologia Aeliana is correct that Joan's
mother was Alice de Lucy, then Joan and her descendants would have a
valid descent from the early kings of Scotland. However, in my first
pass at my Lucy file, I find no daughter named Alice in the proper
generation of the Lucy family. All the same, a Charron-Lucy marriage
seems plausible and I suspect it can probably be proved.
I trust this answers everyone's questions.
Sincerely, Douglas Richardson
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Robert O'Connor
Could you please post the full citation for the Surtees reference to
Charron that you have quoted.
Thanks
--
Robert O'Connor
roco...@es.co.nz
Christchurch
New Zealand
Douglas,
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 4:12 AM
Subject: Re: Griffith - Willoughby - Somerville (CHARRON and SAVOY)
>
> By this I judge that Guiscard de Charron was son of Guiscard de
> Sabaudia (Savoy), brother of Peter de Sabaudia (Savoy).
>
> I can not attest for the accuracy of this information. If Mr. van der
> Pas is correct, however, Peter de Savoy had no such brother named
> Guiscard.
>
It is not a matter whether I am correct or not, I could only quote what ES
and Isenburg had to tell, and they are still very reliable sources. One
possibility, of course, should still be kept in mind : illegitimacy. If I
recall one Charron had a function in Richmond, Peter de Savoie, uncle of
Queen Eleanor de Provence, was Earl of Richmond.
Leo van de Pas
Douglas Richardson
families go, it is very uneven in its coverage. Consequently, primary
records need to be consulted in England before we can proclaim that
Peter of Savoy had no brother named Guiscard. The editor of
Archaeologia Aeliana obviously had some reason to claim that Guiscard
de Charron's father was the brother of Peter of Savoy. And, yes, you
are right, illegitimacy is always a possibility. I came across a
bastard sister of Queen Philippa of Hainault, wife of King Edward III,
recently in English records. Not surprisingly, she is not in ES,
probably because she spent her adult life in England.
Sincerely, Douglas Richardson
In article <005301bf3936$6998c4e0$4d483bcb@leo>, leov...@iinet.net.au
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
GLAUC...@aol.com
roco...@es.co.nz writes:
> Could you please post the full citation for the Surtees reference to
> Charron that you have quoted.
Robert,
Certainly. It is a pedigree chart entitled:
"Descent of Charron, Monboucher, Harbotel and Percy, Lords of Beamish and
Tanfield."
It is found on page 225, volume II of Surtees "History and Antiquities of the
County Palatine of Durham".
Regards,
Lloyd King
Dallas, Texas
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com.invalid>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: Griffith - Willoughby - Somerville (CHARRON and SAVOY)
> Leo: ES is quite good for many families. But as far as English
> families go, it is very uneven in its coverage.
This sounds good BUT the house of Savoie was a continental family and the
name Guiscard does not appear in the House of Savoie as a first name. . Why
should sources in England be searched first? Don't forget Peter of Savoie
was already an uncle (of Queen Eleanor de Provence) before he set foot in
England and, as result, there could/should be continental records as well. I
have never seen Peter referred to as Peter de Sabaudia, always as de
Savoie/of Savoye. His name was given to a building in London and there is
still the Savoy Hotel in London. To me, de Sabaudia for Savoie is
farfetched.
It appears that Queen Eleanor's uncles (plural) visited only a few years
after the marriage, let me quote David Williamson :
However, the Queen's popularity suffered when her Savoyard uncles visited
England and were generously entertained, the king extracting money for that
purpose from the Jews with threats of expulsion. <snip> On the death of
Edmund Rich in 1240, Eleanor procured the Archbishopric of Canterbury for
her uncle, Boniface of Savoy, writing to the Pope herself to assure the
nomination. ((as she married in 1236, the visit was not very long after the
marriage))
The remaining question is, how many uncles? I think only two, Peter and
Boniface. If Guichard was an illegitimate uncle, this is possible but I
doubt it.
Peter and Boniface's father, Thomas I, has two illegitimate sons, Berold and
Benedict, no Guichard. As others also maintain there is no link to the House
of Savoie, to me, it seems to be wishful thinking.
Leo van de Pas
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: Griffith - Willoughby - Somerville (CHARRON and SAVOY)
> Leo:
>
> As I recall, Sabaudia is the Latin form of Savoy. In this instance,
> the English editor put the name "de Sabaudia" in quotation marks which
> suggests that he knew that Peter de Sabaudia was the same person as
> Peter of Savoy.
........Why would that suggest that they are one person? It could mean
anybody coming from Savoie. The two (maybe three?) brothers, Peter and
Boniface, surely had attendants with them coming from Savoy/Savoie.
As I understand it, Peter of Savoy was earl of
> Richmond. It was evidently in this capacity that he appointed his "so
> called" nephew, Guiscard de Charron, the keeper of Bowes castle and
> forester of Richmond, in 1266.
>
> As for your question as to why English sources should be consulted, I
> think that is more than obvious. The Charron family was an English
> family, not Continental.
Here you reveal all. "The Charron family was an English family, not
Continental." If they are not continental, then they cannot be part of the
House of Savoie. Simple.
If Guiscard de Charron was called Peter of
> Savoy's nephew in English records, it would not likely be noticed by
> Continental authors such as the German editor of ES.
How many popes had "nephews"? In the Charron case it won't work as you
mentioned that one was the 'brother' of Peter de Savoie.
As I said
> before, ES is good but I wouldn't rely on it too heavily. Some of the
> charts contain some serious errors and omissions.
>
> I've already mentioned the bastard sister of Queen Philippa mentioned
> in English records which ES overlooked.
........Not only ES. An acclaimed work on the Counts of Holland gives
Philippa six illegitimate brothers and one sister (obviously not the one you
refer to) Aleide mentioned, on 9 August 1332, as a nun in Leeuwenhorst.
Are those English records foolproof?
Another such relationship is
> the kinship between the St. Valery family of England and Picquiny
> family who were vidames of Amiens. I found the connection in an
> printed English charter but it is no where to be found in ES. I could
> give many more examples of how relationships noted in English records
> have been ignored by ES.
..................I have found similar things with a Dutch family mentioned
by ES.
However, in my opinion, when ES deals with prominent families as the House
of Savoie it is pretty good. Especially as others also have mentioned that
they could not find links between Charron and Savoie, I think I would stick
with
ES and Isenburg.
Leo van de Pas
Douglas Richardson
As I recall, Sabaudia is the Latin form of Savoy. In this instance,
the English editor put the name "de Sabaudia" in quotation marks which
suggests that he knew that Peter de Sabaudia was the same person as
Peter of Savoy. As I understand it, Peter of Savoy was earl of
Richmond. It was evidently in this capacity that he appointed his "so
called" nephew, Guiscard de Charron, the keeper of Bowes castle and
forester of Richmond, in 1266.
As for your question as to why English sources should be consulted, I
think that is more than obvious. The Charron family was an English
family, not Continental. If Guiscard de Charron was called Peter of
Savoy's nephew in English records, it would not likely be noticed by
Continental authors such as the German editor of ES. As I said
before, ES is good but I wouldn't rely on it too heavily. Some of the
charts contain some serious errors and omissions.
I've already mentioned the bastard sister of Queen Philippa mentioned
in English records which ES overlooked. Another such relationship is
the kinship between the St. Valery family of England and Picquiny
family who were vidames of Amiens. I found the connection in an
printed English charter but it is no where to be found in ES. I could
give many more examples of how relationships noted in English records
have been ignored by ES. The point is, primary research is preferable
to a chart in a book any day, unless the chart is firmly anchored on
primary sources for all countries involved with that family.
All for now. Douglas Richardson
In article <00e801bf3954$a8b16f60$4d483bcb@leo>, leov...@iinet.net.au
(Leo van de Pas) wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com.invalid>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 9:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Griffith - Willoughby - Somerville (CHARRON and SAVOY)
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
> > > To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 4:12 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Griffith - Willoughby - Somerville (CHARRON and
> SAVOY)
> > > >
LEA...@aol.com
<< Another such relationship is
the kinship between the St. Valery family of England and Picquiny
family who were vidames of Amiens. I found the connection in an
printed English charter but it is no where to be found in ES. >>
Dear Doug,
Is this the family of Maud de St. Valery who married William de Braiose?
Could you possibly briefly explain the family connection here?
I agree with you completely that primary sources always out weigh all
secondary
sources.
As always I appreciate your great wealth of knowledge in these areas and your
continual kindness and support.
Sincerely,
MichaelAnne