Brock/Broke/Brocke/Brook/Brooke & Wiseman

[djones]

In John T. Fitch's, "A Fitch Family History, English Ancestors of the Fitches of colonial Connecticut," he mentions William Fitch m. Anne Wiseman. Their son Thomas m. Agnes Wiseman. Their son Sir William m. Dorothy Cornwallis. The William who m. Anne Wiseman had a brother, Roger, my line, who m. Margery. Their son George m. three times: 1) Joan Thurgood; 2) Bridget French Goss; and, 3) Joane Taylor. By Joan Thurgood, George had Thomas who m. Anne Reve. Mr. Fitch traced Anne Reve's ancestors back to her great grandfather, John Brock and (my emphasis, another Agnes Wiseman). John and Agnes (Wiseman) Brock were of Little Leighs, co: Essex, England. He was b. 1509 and Agnes was b. 1511. Does anyone have a marriage record for this couple? Also, some have posted John Brock as descending from the House of Brooke, Lords Cobham. Does anyone know of a connection? One of John and Agnes (Wiseman) Brock's descendants, James A. Fitch m. Elizabeth Mason, the dau. of Maj. John Mason. He used the Arms of his wife, Ann(e) Peck, "Argent, on a chevron engrailed gules 3 crosses patee of the field," as a seal on paperwork found in the Archives of the State of Connecticut.

[Richard Carruthers]

How very naughty of him to assume his wife's arms, but then a local
pub here in West Van uses the Imperial State Crown on their business
cards!

On 15/12/2012, djones <djones172%cableo...@gtempaccount.com> wrote:
> In John T. Fitch's, "A Fitch Family History, English Ancestors of the
> Fitches of colonial Connecticut," he mentions William Fitch m. Anne Wiseman.
> Their son Thomas m. Agnes Wiseman. Their son Sir William m. Dorothy
> Cornwallis. The William who m. Anne Wiseman had a brother, Roger, my line,
> who m. Margery. Their son George m. three times: 1) Joan Thurgood; 2)
> Bridget French Goss; and, 3) Joane Taylor. By Joan Thurgood, George had
> Thomas who m. Anne Reve. Mr. Fitch traced Anne Reve's ancestors back to her
> great grandfather, John Brock and (my emphasis, another Agnes Wiseman).
> John and Agnes (Wiseman) Brock were of Little Leighs, co: Essex, England.
> He was b. 1509 and Agnes was b. 1511. Does anyone have a marriage record
> for this couple? Also, some have posted John Brock as descending from the
> House of Brooke, Lords Cobham. Does anyone know of a connection? One of
> John and Agnes (Wiseman) Brock's descendants, James A. Fitch m. Elizabeth

> Mason, the dau. of Maj. Jo!

> hn Mason. He used the Arms of his wife, Ann(e) Peck, "Argent, on a chevron
> engrailed gules 3 crosses patee of the field," as a seal on paperwork found
> in the Archives of the State of Connecticut.
>

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[Wjhonson]

These stated birthyears for John and Agnes are not based on any credible evidence.

-----Original Message-----
From: djones <djones172%cableo...@gtempaccount.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:30 pm
Subject: Brock/Broke/Brocke/Brook/Brooke & Wiseman


In John T. Fitch's, "A Fitch Family History, English Ancestors of the Fitches of
colonial Connecticut," he mentions William Fitch m. Anne Wiseman. Their son
Thomas m. Agnes Wiseman. Their son Sir William m. Dorothy Cornwallis. The
William who m. Anne Wiseman had a brother, Roger, my line, who m. Margery.
Their son George m. three times: 1) Joan Thurgood; 2) Bridget French Goss;
and, 3) Joane Taylor. By Joan Thurgood, George had Thomas who m. Anne Reve.
Mr. Fitch traced Anne Reve's ancestors back to her great grandfather, John Brock
and (my emphasis, another Agnes Wiseman). John and Agnes (Wiseman) Brock were
of Little Leighs, co: Essex, England. He was b. 1509 and Agnes was b. 1511.
Does anyone have a marriage record for this couple? Also, some have posted John
Brock as descending from the House of Brooke, Lords Cobham. Does anyone know of
a connection? One of John and Agnes (Wiseman) Brock's descendants, James A.

Fitch m. Elizabeth Mason, the dau. of Maj. Jo!

hn Mason. He used the Arms of his wife, Ann(e) Peck, "Argent, on a chevron
engrailed gules 3 crosses patee of the field," as a seal on paperwork found in
the Archives of the State of Connecticut.

[Wjhonson]

http://books.google.com/books?id=8vsUAAAAQAAJ&dq=john%20brock%20agnes%20wiseman&pg=PA554#v=onepage&q&f=true

[Doug Smith]

I have only minimal references for this family. Try:

Cahiers de St Louis, p 949. Anna Cawthra, Brook Family Record, 1927.

Doug Smith

[geoff...@sky.com]

As Will points out the dates for William Brock and Agnes Wiseman are not known and are pure conjecture. Unfortunately the Little Leighs parish records do not exist for the time in question.
The possibility of a connection between the Brock family and the Brooke family is an intriguing one; it comes from the 'Brock family record' by Anne Cawthra that Doug refers to. I have found little evidence to back it up, however and bearing in mind that families made false claims to the heralds at visitations so one should take them with a pinch of salt, the Brock Arms claimed in the Essex visitations are 'Gules, three fleur de lis or, on a chief argent a lion passant gardant of the field' as Will has linked whereas the Brock arms of Sir John Brooke the 7th Lord Cobham are 'Gules on a chevron argent a lion rampant sable, langues, unguled and crowned or'. There is a vague simularity that does not prove anything, various arms are given for the Cobham and Brooke families and various combinations of them were used when the Brookes became Lords Cobham and the Brock arms could be interpreted as derived from a cadet branch of Brooke Lords Cobham.
That John Brooke did indeed have a son George Brock- Cahiers de St Louis refered to by Doug does give him but no descent is given. He is said to have married Elizabeth Peche and had several children and supposedly one of them was John Brock. The only other 'evidence' I have come across is that some of the Essex Brock family do refer to Lord Brock as their cousin- what this term means has been debated ad infinitum in this forum before in different contexts. One of the Brock manors at Radwinter in Essex was owned for some time by the Lords Cobham, again suggesting a link. So no connection has been proven but there remains a vague suspicion.
By the way William Brock, son of said John Brock and Agnes Wiseman married Margery Bedell. Her parents are given wrongly as John Bedell in every tree I have seen. The proper ones are Thomas Bedell and his wife Joan as show conclusively by their wills. Thomas names all his children and his wife Joanne. Joanne states in her will
'to the four children of William Brokes which he had by my daughter that is Bartholomew, William, Mary and Margery ... each £5 and a silver spoon. To said four children of William Brokes all my impliments of household at his house to be equally divided etc.'
Note that the spelling of Brock, Brooke, Brokes etc was not a settled matter in those days.
Hope this helps

[Wjhonson]

Could you give a citation to the wills of Thomas Bedell and Joan his widow?
Could you tell us the dates, and also do they state in their wills where they are "of" ?

I find it oddly curious that Anne de Vere, an Earl's daughter, an Earl's sister, an Earl's sister-in-law, a Duke's aunt, a Baron's widow, should take as a second husband... what... a cobbler's son? Do we know who this John Brock is supposed to be and why he was important enough for this daughter-in-law ?

[geoff...@sky.com]

Thomas Bedell's will was proved at the Commissary Court of the Bishop of London for parts of Essex; dated September 16, 1550. My notes say-
Thomas Bedell was "Thomas Bedyll of Black Notley in the County of Essex, Yoman (sic)"
directs his body to be buried in Black Notley church, and mentions his wife Johan, his daughters Alice, Custans, Johan, and Margery, and his sons John the elder, Thomas, James, and John the younger.
Joan Bedell's will written 7th April 1573 and proved also by the Commissary Court of the Bishop of London
'to the four children of William Brokes which he had by my daughter that is Bartholomew, William, Mary and Margery and to the other children which were Wysemans and my daughter (this was Alice Bedell who married a William Wiseman) that is John, William, Thomas and Joan and to the other two children which my daughter had by John Roo (Rix?)that is Elizabeth and John Roo each £5 and a silver spoon. To said four children of William Brokes all my impliments of household at his house to be equally divided etc.' Oversees given as Thomas Wyseman of Waltham, gent and William Broke of Little Leighs, witnessed by John Bedell of Black Notley.
The originals are in the Essex Record Office- I do not have the accession numbers as they have changed since Emmison transcribed them. My notes are from Emmison's Essex wills series, a valuable series which saves one from attempting to transcribe the originals oneself and which I accessed at the Essex Record Office.
The elder son John is the man who married Elizabeth Elliston and who are often given as the parents of Margery Bedell. I did a quick search of ancestry trees- there are over 3000 giving Margery Bedell most of which give as her parents either John and Elizabeth or a John and Margaret Jakes an astonishing testament to how the internet and sloppy research can create and perpetuate errors- these 3000 trees will never be corrected and the error will continue to be perpetuated.

John Bedell the Elder is of interest as the father of William Bedell, Bishop of Kilmore. He was one of the first scholars at Queen Elizabeth's Emanuel College in Cambridge later (1603) becoming a fellow and lecturer and undoubtedly one of the main influences on the students of Emanuel who went on to become the Puritan lecturers of the early 1600s, not least the Reverent Hooker who became virtually the first Puritan and was Lecturer in Chelmsford. He tutored James Fitch and they together were immigrants and helped in the founding of Massachusetts.

The Brock family were Gentlemen. John who married Anne de Vere left a will proved PCC 30th Oct 1583 when he was of Colchester and a Gentleman- Lord of the Manor of Arnolds, Mountnessing (which in a different context was also subject to a recent posting on this forum). They had much property in Essex and Suffolk. Should there indeed be a link to the Cobhams then such a marriage would be entirely suitable- the suggestion is that his grandfather was George Brooke 2nd son of John Brooke, 7th Lord Cobham.

Geoff

[Colin B. Withers]

When a man has two sons with the same name, alive at the same time, does this invariably mean that he married twice?

Wibs

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com [mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of geoff...@sky.com
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 1:24 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Cc: gen-me...@rootsweb.com; geoff...@sky.com
Subject: Re: Brock/Broke/Brocke/Brook/Brooke & Wiseman

[Richard Carruthers]

Not in my experience. In the ERNLE pedigree there were two sons of
John ERNLE (d. 1465), of Earnley, Sussex, named John. The elder John
founded the Wiltshire branch of the family while the younger became
Sir John ERNLE, Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas
(ODNB). As far as is known they were both his sons by his wife
Margaret nee MORLEY, later wife of John LUNSFORD.

Richard

On 17/12/2012, Colin B. Withers <Colin....@eumetsat.int> wrote:
> When a man has two sons with the same name, alive at the same time, does
> this invariably mean that he married twice?
>
> Wibs
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
> [mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of geoff...@sky.com
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 1:24 PM
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Cc: gen-me...@rootsweb.com; geoff...@sky.com

> Subject: Re: Brock/Broke/Brocke/Brook/Brooke & Wiseman
>

[geoff...@sky.com]

I have seen other incidences of a father naming two sons the same whilst indisputably with the same wife. It was of course common when the first so named died and a subsequent child recieved the same name but some named two surviving children with one known as the elder and the other as the younger as here with Thomas Bedell. I have also seem a family where nine sons were all named Henry after their father and were presumably known by their second given name.


Geoff

[Wjhonson]

Hmmm I hope you don't mean this literally, because there isn't any such animal.
Each individual person can be Gent, Esq, Knight. A family isn't "gentleman". Only a person.

<<The Brock family were Gentlemen.>>

-----Original Message-----
From: geoffvowles <geoff...@sky.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Cc: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>; geoffvowles <geoff...@sky.com>
Sent: Mon, Dec 17, 2012 4:26 am
Subject: Re: Brock/Broke/Brocke/Brook/Brooke & Wiseman

[Matt Tompkins]

On Dec 17, 1:31 pm, "Colin B. Withers" <Colin.With...@eumetsat.int>
wrote:

> When a man has two sons with the same name, alive at the same time, does this invariably mean that he married twice?

Not invariably - there are known cases of full brothers given the same
forename. A famous example is the two sons of John Paston of Norfolk
who were both called John. They were born in 1442 and 1444, to his
only wife Margaret, nee Mautby, whom he had married in 1440 and who
survived his death in 1466, living until 1484. The duplication of
names may be due to the then-widespread naming custom by which the
senior godparent chose the name and conferred his own - presumably on
both occasions the godparent was himself called John. One might have
been Sir John Fastolf, Margaret's relative and a business associate of
John the father's william Paston (John senior's father), the other
might have been Margaret's uncle John Berney of Reedham or John Damme
of Sustead, another associate of William Paston.

Matt Tompkins

[Richard Carruthers]

In the case of the name, John, for example, there is also the matter of
there being numerous saints of that name including, St John the
Baptist, St John the Evangelist, St John Chrysostom, etc.

Theoretically two brothers of the same forename (Christian name) could
then have two separate saints' days (name days) and, therefore, in
theory, at least notionally, two distinct Christian names were being
credited/honoured even though which particular dedicatory saint each
son is named for is not recorded.

The same of course applies to other male saints as well as
dedicatory names given to females.

This echoes the possibility of doubling up on godparent-derived names
(as Matt Tompkins mentioned) as this could be a case of layering of
honour/dedication with a given saint's name being honoured along with
a godparent's (whose particular dedicatory saint's name was perhaps
being carried forward to another generation).

I suppose one could consider this a form of the promotion of the cult
of a given saint, and the reinforcement of one's family ties to that
holy person with the side benefit of including a godparent in the baptised's
support/honour system.

Not all saints names given to children need necessarily have been
derived from a godparent of the same sex. Indeed, one sees in the case
of one key ERNLE forebear, Michael ERNLE, of Bourton manor, Bishop's
Cannings, Wilts. (d. ca 1593-4), that he was baptised on the 29 September
1541, i.e. the feast day of St Michael the Archangel (which was perhaps also
the day on which he was born as he was eldest son and heir of his
father John ERNLE, gent.), according to the parish register of his
mother's home parish,
as she was a HYDE of Denchworth, in Berkshire, viz.:

http://archive.org/stream/registersofdench00denc#page/n9/mode/2up

N.B. The n-less spelling of the surname recorded in that baptismal
entry is just one of the sometimes confusing (and thus highly
missable) spelling variations under which I have found members of the
Sussex and Wiltshire ERNLE sib recorded in the period during which the
ERNLE surname flourished (ca 1166-1787) before dying out (apparently)
in the male line.


Richard Carruthers