2 Helens ferch Llywelyn
Kay Allen AG
Elen and Helen are the same name, hence the confusion. Mr. Reitweisner's
The Genealogist article is a must-read, as he discusses all of
Llywelyn's children, but the daughters were his main focus. All of the
daughters' maternity is unknown, until more documentary evidence is
uncovered. Some may be Joan's but it is unproven which, if any. Since
the maternity of some of the children is unknown, Dave Utz's chart is a
little misleading, as it is implied that the offspring of the so-called
third wife may not be full siblings at all. Also as the maternity of the
(H)elen who married de Quincy is not known positively, so listing her as
a known dtr. of Joan's is not correct.
Kay Allen AG
U...@aol.com
all...@pacbell.net writes:
Here is a copy of the post made by WAR. Note, there is another article which
reportedly proves Joan a mother of an Elen.
See my article in *The Genealogist* (Association for the Promotion of
Scholarship in Genealogy), vol. 1, no. 1 (Spring 1980), pp. 80-95. The
children of Llywelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth (c1173-1240) were as follows:
Sons:
(1) Gruffudd, illegitimate son by Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch
(2) Tegwared y Baiswen, illegitimate son by unknown woman
(3) Dafydd, legitimate son by Joan of England
Daughters:
(4) Angharad m. Maelgwn Ieuanc ap Maelgwn Hen (or Fawr)
(5) Angharad m. Philip ab Ivor
(6) NN (name unknown) m. William Caentwn
(7) Gwladus Ddu m1. Reginald de Braose m2. Ralph de Mortimer
(8) Margred m1. John de Braose m2. Walter de Clifford
(9) Gwenllian Las m. William de Lacy
(10) Elen m1. John, Earl of Chester m2. Robert de Quincy
(11) Elen m1. Malcolm, Earl of Fife m2. Donald, Earl of Mar
The purpose of my article was to show that the commonly ascribed maternity
of Llywelyn Fawr's daughters, i.e., that most if not all of his daughters
were also daughters of his wife Joan, daughter of King John of England, is
unsupported and that the mother of these daughters must be shown as
"unknown". Later, in the same periodical, vol. 4, no. 2 (Fall 1983), pp.
137-138, Andrew B. W. MacEwen proved that the daughter Elen who married the
Earl of Chester and later Robert de Quincy was a daughter of Joan.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
Always optimistic--Dave
Kay Allen AG
the statement which proceeds it: that the implication is that these are
full siblings, when some may be from Joan or from more than one other
mother. This is a problem when you post from a program. You need to find
a way to indicate that #3 wife is a convention for an unknown mother.
Is the post you quote from within the last few days during this thread
or from earlier times?
If it is recent, then it has not come through my server.
Kay Allen AG
U...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 12/1/00 3:07:45 PM Central Standard Time,
> all...@pacbell.net writes:
>
>
>
>
>> Elen and Helen are the same name, hence the confusion. Mr.
>> Reitweisner's
>> The Genealogist article is a must-read, as he discusses all of
>> Llywelyn's children, but the daughters were his main focus. All of
>> the
>> daughters' maternity is unknown, until more documentary evidence is
>> uncovered. Some may be Joan's but it is unproven which, if any.
>> Since
>> the maternity of some of the children is unknown, Dave Utz's chart
>> is a
>> little misleading, as it is implied that the offspring of the
>> so-called
>> third wife may not be full siblings at all. Also as the maternity of
>> the
>> (H)elen who married de Quincy is not known positively, so listing
>> her as
>> a known dtr. of Joan's is not correct.
>>
>> Kay Allen AG
>
Snipped
>>
>>
>
>
> ( Later, in the same periodical, vol. 4, no. 2 (Fall 1983), pp.
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Is the post you quote from within the last few days during
> this thread or from earlier times?
> If it is recent, then it has not come through my server.
It's an oldie (but a goodie).
taf
U...@aol.com
all...@pacbell.net writes:
> I stand corrected on (H)elen, wife of de Quincy. However, I stand by the
> statement which proceeds it: that the implication is that these are full
> siblings, when some may be from Joan or from more than one other mother.
> This is a problem when you post from a program. You need to find a way to
> indicate that #3 wife is a convention for an unknown mother. Is the post
> you quote from within the last few days during this thread or from earlier
> times?
> If it is recent, then it has not come through my server. Kay Allen AG
>
I agree with your observation on "Unknown" I will try to correct before
posting in the future--as you say, there were probably more than 1 mistress,
concubine, etc. As to the post, it is very old--more than a year.
Always optimistic--Dave
douglasr...@hotmail.com
In addition to the children listed below by Mr. Reitwiesner for Prince
Llewellyn, Llewellyn also had a legitimate daughter by his wife, Joan
of England, named Susanna.
Andrew MacEwen of Maine has reviewed the chronology of the Earls of
Fife and determined that Ellen, the surviving wife of Malcolm, Earl of
Fife, was a later, much younger second wife. Ellen was evidently not
the mother of Earl Malcolm's heir. As such, he postulates that Earl
Malcolm had an earlier unknown first wife and it was the earlier wife
who was the daughter of Llewellyn. If correct, then Earl Malcolm's
known surviving wife, Ellen, must be removed from the list of Prince
Llewellyn's children below.
As for the identity of Earl Malcolm's first wife, Mr. MacEwen suspects
the earlier wife may have been Susanna, the legitimate daughter of
Prince Llewellyn by his wife, Joan of England.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
In article <5e.40fb4e...@aol.com>,
U...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 12/1/00 3:07:45 PM Central Standard Time,
> all...@pacbell.net writes:
>
> > Elen and Helen are the same name, hence the confusion. Mr.
Reitweisner's
> > The Genealogist article is a must-read, as he discusses all of
> > Llywelyn's children, but the daughters were his main focus. All of
the
> > daughters' maternity is unknown, until more documentary evidence is
> > uncovered. Some may be Joan's but it is unproven which, if any.
Since
> > the maternity of some of the children is unknown, Dave Utz's chart
is a
> > little misleading, as it is implied that the offspring of the so-
called
> > third wife may not be full siblings at all. Also as the maternity
of the
> > (H)elen who married de Quincy is not known positively, so listing
her as
> > a known dtr. of Joan's is not correct.
> >
> > Kay Allen AG
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> "unknown". Later, in the same periodical, vol. 4, no. 2 (Fall 1983),
pp.
> 137-138, Andrew B. W. MacEwen proved that the daughter Elen who
married the
> Earl of Chester and later Robert de Quincy was a daughter of Joan.
>
> William Addams Reitwiesner
> wr...@erols.com
>
> Always optimistic--Dave
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> In addition to the children listed below by Mr. Reitwiesner for Prince
> Llewellyn, Llewellyn also had a legitimate daughter by his wife, Joan
> of England, named Susanna.
What is the basis for this daughter of Joan?
> Andrew MacEwen of Maine has reviewed the chronology of the Earls of
> Fife and determined that Ellen, the surviving wife of Malcolm, Earl of
> Fife, was a later, much younger second wife. Ellen was evidently not
> the mother of Earl Malcolm's heir. As such, he postulates that Earl
> Malcolm had an earlier unknown first wife and it was the earlier wife
> who was the daughter of Llewellyn. If correct, then Earl Malcolm's
> known surviving wife, Ellen, must be removed from the list of Prince
> Llewellyn's children below.
>
> As for the identity of Earl Malcolm's first wife, Mr. MacEwen suspects
> the earlier wife may have been Susanna, the legitimate daughter of
> Prince Llewellyn by his wife, Joan of England.
Perhaps I am missing something, but why Susanna, and not some
other daughter of Llewellyn (by Joan or otherwise)?
taf