Boteler of Warrington and More
Gordon Kirkemo
Todd, in a posting dated 29 Sep 2001 ("William Boteler +1380) you provided a
lineage for the Botelers of Warrington (see below). It appears you did it
from memory, or from partial notes, so I recognize there may be some errors
or oversights. I'm hoping you have an updated list available.
I recently encountered a Boteler of Warrington issue, and it has led to
further lineages for which I'm hoping I can get some feedback. In a
secondary source titled "Keepers of the Name and Blood" published by The
Ratcliffe Foundation, I find a "Richard de Redclyffe" married a daughter of
William le Boteler, Baron of Warrington (page 27). Richard died in 1326.
In looking at your posting, it would seem that William and Dionysia
(Lostock) le Boteler would be good candidates as the parents of the unnamed
daughter.
In checking the Internet, I find several sites that support this conclusion
and identify the daughter as Joan. Does this match well with your notes, or
does someone have different information?
The websites I found (for example:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jamesdow/s089/f010391.htm) suggest
a further lineage that I'm hoping for comments about. This lineage is as
follows:
1. Joan le Boteler
2. William le Boteler ( -1303)
3. Dionysia de Lostock
4. Almeric le Boteler ( -1235)
5. Alicia Garnet
6. Henry de Lostock
7.
8. William Pincerna le Boteler ( -c.1233)
9. Ada de Furnys
10. William Garnet
11.
16. Richard Pincerna ( - c.1130)
17. Beatrice de Vilars
18. Thomas Fitz Thomas
19. Joan Veteripont
20.
32. Robert Pincerna ( ->1158)
33.
34. Matthew de Vilars
35.
36. Thomas Fitz Gospatric, Lord of Workington
37. Grace _____
38.
64. Richard Pincerna
65.
72. Gospatric of High Ireby
73. Egeline d'Engaine
74.
144. Orme
145. Gunilda
146. Ranulph d'Engaine
147. Ibria d'Estrivers
148.
288. Ketel
289. Christiana
290. Gospatric, Earl of Dunbar
291.
292.
293. Robert d'Estrivers
294. Matilda de Meschines
295.
588. Ranulph le Meschines
589. Margaret (Maud) d'Avranches
This line is reproduced from the website, and I've made no effort to expand
it here. My interest is verifying the Boteler line back to #64 (including
#9 as presented), and looking closely at the "d'Estrivers" connection (I
think this might be de Strivers). The Workington/Dunbar line has been well
developed and recorded on the Archive. I did not find anything regarding de
Strivers (cause for suspicion), and I'm not certain the identity of Egeline,
wife of Gospatric, has been confirmed as the daughter of Ranulph/Ralph de
Engaine.
I welcome any constructive comments, particularly on the points of interest.
Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 00:20:02 -0600
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Message-ID: <3BB56812...@interfold.com>
Subject: Re: William Boteler + 1380
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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[My usual server does not appear to have posted my previous
attempt, so I am using a different server. Please forgive the
duplication that may result of the originals eventually get out.]
Dow...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Ancestral Roots line 170 has the following about some Botelers: Alice de
> Plumpton m. (2) 1374 Sir John Boteler of Bewsey in Warrington, Lancashire,
d.
> 1400, son of William le Boteler of Bewsey and Elizabeth de Havering, dau.
of
> Nicholas de Havering. John was Baron of Warrington 1380 - 1400 so William
> died in 1380.
>
> Who are William le Boteler's parents? I've searched the GEN-MED. archives
> and photocopied the Boteler article from CP. The photocopied article from
> Vol. II p. 230 of CP states, in part, [The accounts of his issue are
> extremely contradictory, but none of his descendants (who were settled at
> Warrington, Bewsey, and elsewhere, co. Lancaster) appear to have been sum.
to
> Parl.] _his issue_ is the issue of William le Boteler who was summoned to
> Parliament in 1295.
Unfortunately, I am forced to resort to ancient and poorly
referenced notes for this. (IIRC, it came from one of the
Lancashire Transactions series.) I show William Boteler, husband
of Elizabeth de Havering, as son of William le Boteler d.c.1328
(and Sibyl ____), son of Henry le Boteler d.v.p 1297 (and Isabel
le Boteler of Mertyn, his cousin), son of William le Boteler (and
Dionysia de Lostock) son of Alberic le Boteler (and Alina), at
which point I pass off the page and cannot find a continuing
page. I must have a photocopy of the article around somewhere
from which this is taken, but I am currently unable to find it.
taf
Cristopher Nash
Phillip le Boteler? As in --
Phillip le Boteler
| Clemence le Boteler
| & Nicholas de Verdun
| d. 1231
| | Rohese de Verdun
| | d. 1246/7
| | & Theobald II le Boteler/Butler
| | d. 1230
I'm still always on the lookout for a solution to the riddle as to
his origins we struggled over here last year, and the Warrington
line's long been one of several in the offing.
Cheers,
Cris
"Gordon Kirkemo" <kir...@comcast.net> wrote --
--
Gordon Kirkemo
Thanks for responding. Sadly, I've nothing to offer regarding the elusive
Phillip.
Gordon
Cheers,
Cris
--
______________________________
Todd A. Farmerie
> TAF and Others,
>
> Todd, in a posting dated 29 Sep 2001 ("William Boteler +1380) you provided a
> lineage for the Botelers of Warrington (see below). It appears you did it
> from memory, or from partial notes, so I recognize there may be some errors
> or oversights. I'm hoping you have an updated list available.
I have not looked at the question since I posted (several years
ago, I moved, and no longer have access to the wealth of sources
I used to).
taf
John Higgins
pedigree of Boteler of Warrington in Baines' History of Lancaster (3rd ed.,
James Croston, editor), pp. 400ff. I can't vouch for its accuracy, but it
may be a start for some further research.
The Boteler daughter who m. Richard Radcliffe is listed here (without a
given name) as sister, not daughter, of William, 8th Baron of Warrington (d.
before May 20, 1330), who was son of Henry le B. (d. [vp] 1297) and his wife
Isabella, dau. of Richard le Boteler of Merton. Henry is turn is shown as
son of the Sir William (7th Baron) you mention who m. Dionysia Lostock.
FWIW, Hampson's "The Book of the Radclyffes" also says the Boteler who m.
Richard Radcliffe was a dau. of Sir William (presumably the 7th Baron),
without identifying her mother. Thus, a conflict with Baines....
The earlier generations of Boteler/Pincerna appear in this pedigree as you
outline them. The information in TAF's 2001 message is also confirmed here,
with the single exception that the wife of the later Sir William le B. (the
father of Sir John who m. Alice Plumpton) is said to be Elizabeth, dau. of
John de Argenteyn, not Elizabeth, dau. of Nicholas de Havering. I don't
know which of these two is correct.
Hope this helps....perhaps someone can venture an opinion on the general
reliability of Baines in these matters.
John Higgins
"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole
John Higgins
1) The citation to Baines should read vol. 4, pp. 400ff.
2) With respect Elizabeth de Havering or Elizabeth de Argenteyn as the wife
of Sir William le BOteler (d. 1380), I just noted a 1999 post by Douglas
Richardson which appears to resolve the question in favor of Elizabeth de
Havering. His text is quoted below:
[start quote]
The William Boteler who married Elizabeth Argentine was NOT William Boteler
of
Warrington as often claimed in print. I went around the mulberry bush on
that
one, too, before I got it straightened out. Elizabeth Argentine actually
married (lst) before 1326, William Boteler, son of Ralph Boteler, of
Pulverbatch, co. Salop; married (2nd) after 1336 and before 1349, Gilbert de
Elsfield. She was still living 1376, and died soon after without issue.
My source for this is: Victoria County History of Hertford, 4:111-112.
Hope this helps. All for now. Hastily, Douglas Richardson
[end quote]
Reedpcgen
There are a number of different editions (Croston's edition of Baines?).
Unfortunately, I've found numerous errors in the pedigrees presented in all the
editions, so without a reference to a specific document, I'd be rather careful.
One could wish something were said in the VCH Lancshire (which I have not
checked), which is one of the most thorough and well documented of any in the
county series (thanks to the likes of William Farrar and John Brownbill, two of
the greatest medievalists of their day).
Paul
David Paul Meyer
Would anyone know which William le Boteler was the father of the Ellen who married James Banastre?
Thank you!
Yours truly,
David, on the central coast, California, USA
Sutliff
William. I don't have time to check VCH Lancs at the moment, but will try
over the weekend.
Henry Sutliff
"David Paul Meyer" <Ancestr...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:5.1.1.6.2.200311...@incoming.verizon.net...
Kay Allen AG
some detail.
Sorry, I don't have the number at hand.
K
Reedpcgen
>There is a set of microfiche from the FHL which covers this family is quite
>some detail.
>Sorry, I don't have the number at hand.
>
Yes, I think it is in a very detailed article, but could not remember the
specific source either (a volume of the Chetham Society not on the shelf?). It
is the only highly documented account of this family I remember.
Paul
Todd A. Farmerie
> Gordon, can I assume you've not run into any sign of a late C12 Phillip
> le Boteler? As in --
>
> Phillip le Boteler
> | Clemence le Boteler
> | & Nicholas de Verdun
> | d. 1231
As long as we are talking about unplaced Botelers, I have two
that I have not found any information on (mostly from not having
access to the right sources).
Robert Boteler of Ingleby, Derby, temp Henry II
Edeline, m. Roger de Somerville, fl. 1190
AND
John le Boteler, d. by 1297, tenant in chief in Ireland
Emoine (Edmunda), m. Jan. 1274/5 Thomas de Multon
Anyone know anything about these two?
Also, in looking at DD for Pincerna, I see a potential error:
Pincerne, Basilia Filia Robertii
Daughter of William _pincerna_ of West Dean, Sussex
citing Pipe Roll 31 Henry I, 71-ss
While it certainly need not be an error, it looks like she would
either be filia Robertii or daughter of William, but not both
(had any patronymics locked in as surnames by this time?) Can
anyone check the Pipe Roll (is it published) to see what appears
there?
taf
Cristopher Nash
>Cristopher Nash wrote:
>>Gordon, can I assume you've not run into any sign of a late C12
>>Phillip le Boteler? As in --
>>
>>Phillip le Boteler
>>| Clemence le Boteler
>>| & Nicholas de Verdun
>>| d. 1231
>
>As long as we are talking about unplaced Botelers, I have two that I
>have not found any information on (mostly from not having access to
>the right sources).
>
>Robert Boteler of Ingleby, Derby, temp Henry II
> Edeline, m. Roger de Somerville, fl. 1190
[SNIP]
Now here's a new wrinkle. Friends here will recall a massive and
productive exchange under several headers stretching from Nov 01 to
March 02 concerning the origins of Clemence (referred to in early
postings as 'Queen Clemence/regina Clemencie') who m. Nicholas de
Verdun (who d. 1231). This ended when we ran out of leads that might
have connected her father Philip (le) Boteler/Butiller/Butler with
the pincernas of the Beaumonts (earls of Leics), 'Meschins' (earls of
Ches), the Butlers subsequently of Wem, and the descs. of Theobald
Butler fa. of Theobald II who m. Nicholas de Verdun's da. Roesia.
(We readily and without comment ruled out the pincernas of the
d'Aubigny, probably for want of any trace of evidence linking this
family with the Verduns.) A particular problem was chronological in
that, as Paul Reed pointed out -- and as was certainly the case
regarding the line of Theobald Butler -- while several Philip le
Botelers/Butlers appeared in the record, they all considerably
postdated the period of Clemence's father.
But thanks to Todd's query, I'm struck by my own failure to explore
further (especially since by Dec 01 I'd myself mentioned the
commonsense of it) the 'familia' of the Ferrers earls of Derby, with
whom the Verduns had early and close ties. Looking at Todd's
citing/sighting, I'm thinking now not simply of the superficial fact
that Ingleby is some 4.5 mi. from Derby and 7.5 mi. from the Ferrers'
caput at Tutbury (which is appealing but trivial, given the
geographical range of holdings commonly assigned to 'butlers'). More
significant is, for example, that Nicholas de Verdun is himself --
per Hagger -- the stepson of Matilda de Ferrers, da. of Robert II, E
of Derby (d. bef. 1160) and Bertram III de Verdun's 1st wife.
I'm not going to belabor this now but -- without presuming to answer
Todd's query -- I think it might repay us on several fronts to keep
an eye out for evidence of a 12th-century pincerna/Boteler associated
with the Ferrers. And BTW Tood, if you've any more on your Robert
Boteler it'd be interesting to hear...?
Cheers to all,
Cris
--
Cristopher Nash
to be rood.
Cris
--
Todd A. Farmerie
computer - sorry if it duplicates]
Reedpcgen wrote:
> Yes, I think it is in a very detailed article, but could not remember the
> specific source either (a volume of the Chetham Society not on the shelf?). It
> is the only highly documented account of this family I remember.
Ah, with this I was able to find my notes. It was in vols. 86
and 87, in an article entitled "The annals of Warrington". It
begins with Richard, son of Robert and Ivetta de Helgot, yet I
have this crossed out based on another unknown source, replaced
by Robert Fitz Helgot as first husband of Beatrice. The pedigree
continues (only daughters of interest to me at the time are shown):
Robert Fitz Richard Pincerna, m. Ivetta Helgot, dau William.
Richard Fitz Robert Pincerna, m. Beatrice de Villers
William le Boteler/Pincerna, m. Ada de Furneys, had:
Editha, m. Richard Molineux
Alberic Pincerna, m. Alina Garnet
Richard le Boteler de Merton, m. Alicia Carleton
Richard le Boteler de Merton
Isabel le Boteler m. Henry le Boteler
William Fitz Henry Pincerna, m. Dyonisia, dau Henry de Lostock
Henry Fitz William le Boteler, m. his cousin Isabel le Boteler
dau, m. Richard Fitz Henry de Radcliffe
(?) Margaret, m. Geoffrey de Warburton
William Fitz Henry le Boteler, m. Sibilla (? Dutton)
Eda, m. Willliam Trussell
Maud, m. John Tr_____ (I can't read my note:
Tru = Trussell or Tra = Trafford)
William Boteler, m. Elizabeth de Argenteyn
Elizabeth, m. Piers Dutton
John Boteler, m. Alicia de Plumpton
Margaret, m. Ardern
Alice, m. Thomas Gerard
William Boteler, m. Elizabeth Standish
John Boteler, m. Isabel Harrington
Alice, m. Nicholas Byron
Ellen, m. John Mainwaring
I note that this has the discredited Argenteyn marriage, which I
presumably corrected to Havering based of AR7.
I also have, from VCH Lancs, further descent of the
Merton/Rawcliffe Botelers:
Richard, fl. 1277, brother of William le Boteler of Warrington,
m. Alice, dau William de Carleton
Richard, d. 16E2
Isabel, m. her cousin Henry
Richard, b. ca. 1300, (in 1317, John de Shireburne and Randle le
Gentyl claimed the marriage of Richard, son of Richard), d. 1323
Richard, b. 1319, m. Cicely
John, fl. 1357, 1385, m. Margaret
Ellen, m. Nicholas Croft
But here is a quote of interest - Richard and William le Boteler
are explicitly called cousins of Theobald Walter, and Richard le
Boteler is said to have been granted Rawcliffe by his cousin
Theobald.
taf
Sutliff
The mother of Ellen, wife of Nicholas Croft was Margaret de Redmayne,
daughter of Adam de Redmayne of Yealand Redmayne (Source: VCH Lancs
VIII:176)
One of the Richards with unidentified wife was married to Ellen de Haydock
of Haydock (Source: VCH Lancs VII:240)
Hope this helps.
Henry Sutliff
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:3FB11CEF...@interfold.com...
> [my last attempt doesn't appear to have made it out of my
> computer - sorry if it duplicates]
<snip>>
Sutliff
One minor correction from VCH Lancs VII:240-1 notes. It was the Richard who
died 1323 who was married to Cecily as she was mentioned as widow of Richard
in 1323-4 when her son was 4 years old. (Raines MSS).
HS
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:3FB11CEF...@interfold.com...
> [my last attempt doesn't appear to have made it out of my
> computer - sorry if it duplicates]
<snip>
Sutliff
another d. 1323 are these two distinct people who died the same year, or the
same man?
Alice de Carleton as widow of Richard (d. abt 1273) is mentioned at VCH
Lancs VII:243-4. I am wondering if Ellen de Haydock (VCH Lancs VII:240)
belongs elsewhere. Might there be some confusion on my part among the Great
Marton and Out Rawcliffe Boteler families with similar names? I think I need
to re-read these accounts to sort them out better than I have. However, I do
think the above Richard might be a single individual rather than father and
son who died in 1323. Thanks.
HS
"Sutliff" <sut...@redshift.com> wrote in message
news:vr2lmjt...@corp.supernews.com...
Sutliff
additions to the conversation.
VCH Lancs VIII:300 notes identifies the widow of William de Furness (le
Fleming) as Alice/Aline/Ada. This Same Ada has been sometimes identified as
daughter of Thomas FitzGospatrick of Workington, Cumberland.
The widow of William de Furness is the one who is identified as having
married William le Boteler following her first husband's death near 1203. If
it is the same woman, she was mother of Michael and Daniel le Fleming and
also Almeric and Emma (or Editha) le Boteler. (Lanc. Inq. and Extents,
I:118)
Has anyone confirmed this from other sources?
Thanks.
HS
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:3FB11CEF...@interfold.com...
Terry Mair
Somervilles mother I would be interested in knowing that as well.
Thanks
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Todd A. Farmerie
Sutliff wrote:
> My apologies for noticing something else. You have a Richard d. 16 E2 and
> another d. 1323 are these two distinct people who died the same year, or the
> same man?
> However, I do
> think the above Richard might be a single individual rather than father and
> son who died in 1323. Thanks.
More likely I have either erred in writing the regnal year, or
attatched it to the wrong Richard. It seems unlikely that a man
active in 1260 (as was the first Richard) would have a son still
a minor in 1317. I think there must be a Richard (II) who died
shortly before 1317, and was then father of this minor Richard
(III), who died 1323, leaving infant son Richard, b.ca. 1319.
> Alice de Carleton as widow of Richard (d. abt 1273) is mentioned at VCH
> Lancs VII:243-4. I am wondering if Ellen de Haydock (VCH Lancs VII:240)
> belongs elsewhere.
I don't have VCH access any more, so I don't know the exact
chronology, but could she be wife of this Richard (II), and
mother of Richard (III), b. say 1300. If so, we would only lack
a wife for Richard (IV), b. ca. 1319.
taf
Christopher Barttels
I'm a little confused here. Is this to say that Elizabeth Butler who
married Piers de Dutton was the daughter of William Boteler and Elizabeth de
Argenteyn?
Seems, in a pdf file I had on line a year or so ago, discussing the ancestry
of Anne Lloyd Yale Eaton, I had Elizabeth Butler as dau. of William Butler
and Elizabeth Standish, per William Addams Reitwisner's "The Ancestors of
Richard Vaughan, Bishop of London"; and Carl Boyer's "Medieval Ancestors of
Robert Abell".
I can't remember where it came from, but one of the well known contributors
to the GEN-MEDEVIAL list notified me that in his research, he had been
unable to determine the ancestry of Elizabeth Butler wife of Pier de Dutton.
Can you comment on this?
Thanks so much for your time and research.
Christopher Barttels
Dayton, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: Boteler of Warrington
> ______________________________
Todd A. Farmerie
digging, and what I found corrects what I have posted here (no
longer having the source, I cannot say if the error is the
sources, or my own in copying it).
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> Ah, with this I was able to find my notes. It was in vols. 86 and 87,
> in an article entitled "The annals of Warrington". It begins with
> Richard, son of Robert and Ivetta de Helgot, yet I have this crossed out
> based on another unknown source, replaced by Robert Fitz Helgot as first
> husband of Beatrice. The pedigree continues (only daughters of interest
> to me at the time are shown):
[snip]
> William Boteler, m. Elizabeth de Argenteyn
> Elizabeth, m. Piers Dutton
>
> John Boteler, m. Alicia de Plumpton
> Margaret, m. Ardern
> Alice, m. Thomas Gerard
>
> William Boteler, m. Elizabeth Standish
Apparently, several sources show Elizabeth, wife of Piers Dutton,
as daughter of the other William and Elizabeth (Standish). Let's
look at the chronology (this is what was immediately available,
there is certainly more out there that would fill it out):
Piers Dutton was b. ca. 1367 (aged 20 at the death of his mother
in 1387 - Ormerod). His second son, and eventual heir, John
married in 1418 and had a son ca. 1421, suggesting that Elizabeth
wouldn't have been born much more than a decade after her
husband, say ca. 1375 +/- 5 years.
John Boteler, son of William and Elizabeth Havering (correcting
Argenteyn) was married 1364 to widow Alice Plumpton (AR7). Thus
their son William could not have been born before this date.
Internet sources (of dubious quality) place John Dutton, son and
heir of Elizabeth Boteler, as b. 1403, and John Boteler, son and
heir of William Boteler b. 1402.
Lining things up by generation, we have the following:
William=Elizabeth
Boteler| Havering
|
|1364
John=Alice Edmund=Joan
Boteler|Plumpton Dutton|Minshull
| |
| |
William=Elizabeth Elizabeth=Piers
Boteler|Standish Boteler |Dutton
b.aft.1364| |b.ca.1367
| |
John John
Boteler Dutton
b.say1402 b.say1403
(2nd son)
Now, it is possible that William was b.ca. 1365, and had a
daughter b. ca. 1383, who then married a man the same age as her
father, having a son b.ca. 1401. However, this would mean that
William Boteller's son and her, John, would have been born 20
years after his first child - not impossible, but quite unlikely.
Likewise, she could have been a much younger sister of John,
and married a husband much younger. Still, it seems most likely
that Elizabeth was daughter of neither William, but instead was
daughter of John and Alice Plumpton.
taf
Cristopher Nash
>Lining things up by generation, we have the following:
>
>William=Elizabeth
>Boteler| Havering
> |
> |1364
> John=Alice Edmund=Joan
> Boteler|Plumpton Dutton|Minshull
> | |
> | |
> William=Elizabeth Elizabeth=Piers
> Boteler|Standish Boteler |Dutton
> b.aft.1364| |b.ca.1367
> | |
> John John
> Boteler Dutton
> b.say1402 b.say1403
> (2nd son)
Various Dutton lines have been considered in a number of threads this
year, and -- having had no immediate concern re the families with
whom they were associated -- I've been slow in realizing that a
poster or two may have had some ultimate interest in and information
about the following:
"probably John Dutton"
| Thomas Dutton of Reading, Woburn & Billerica, MA
| b. ca 1621
| & (1) Susanna (--)
| b. ca 1626
| d. 27 May 1684 ae 58
| |
| | Susanna Dutton
| | b. 22 Feb 1653/4, Reading, MA
| | & John Durant of Billerica, MA
| | b. prob by/bef 1639
| | d. 27 Oct 1692, Cambridge prison
| | m. 16 Nov 1670, Billerica, MA
| & (2) Mrs Ruth Hooper in 1684.
(Recited in a general way in a variety of New England genealogies,
the connections and dates as specified here appear in Rev William
Durant, 'John Durant of Billerica, Massachussetts and His
Descendants' [MS @ NEHGS Lib, MSS C1535, prob. ca. 1906].)
Without wanting to drag discussion into an OT post-medieval area, if
anyone happens to have record of this family group -- and
particularly any data concerning the origins of Thomas Dutton (or
indeed of John Durant, setting aside his putative relationship with a
witch or two) -- I'd much appreciate word of it.
Thanks!
Cris
--
R. Battle
<snip>
> Various Dutton lines have been considered in a number of threads this
> year, and -- having had no immediate concern re the families with
> whom they were associated -- I've been slow in realizing that a
> poster or two may have had some ultimate interest in and information
> about the following:
>
> "probably John Dutton"
> | Thomas Dutton of Reading, Woburn & Billerica, MA
> | b. ca 1621
> | & (1) Susanna (--)
<snip>
At least one of the posters' interest in this line is due to it apparently
being in the ancestry of the MA immigrant Ann (Lloyd) (Yale) Eaton via the
Dones of Utkinton and various Welsh families. Of course, as I am a
descendant of Thomas Dutton as well as Mrs. Ann Eaton, I would certainly
like to hear about any such connection implied or proposed above (to the
best of my knowledge, the origin of Thomas Dutton is unknown).
-Robert Battle
Sutliff
>
> John Boteler, m. Isabel Harrington
> Alice, m. Nicholas Byron
> Ellen, m. John Mainwaring
>
FWIW The following sources place Alice le Boteler, wife of Nicholas Byron as
daughter of Sir John Boteler (1429-1463) of Bewsey (who was son of John
Boteler and Isabel Harington) and his wife Margaret Gerard, daughter of Sir
Piers Gerard and Isabel Strangways of Whorlton:
Visit of Notts [1569-1614]: 9
Baines [Croston]: II:7
I would add that John Boteler the younger and his wife Margaret Gerard were
married in August 1444 and she was dead bef 1452. During their short
marriage 2 sons and 4 daughters are alleged to have been produced including
Alice and Margaret (wife of Adam Troutbeck).
By snipping the post so much, I may have shown this out of context which was
not intended.
HS