Three proposed lines of descent from King Henry 1 to Jane Stradling (d. 1560), wife of William Carnsew

[david...@gmail.com]

Hello,

I was fortunate enough to find a link to Jane Stradling through her husband William Carnsew (Carnsewe, Carnesew, etc). I am still in the process of tracing back her seemingly endless ancestors, but suspect that at this point I will find no more links to King Henry 1.

My thanks to the countless soc.gen.medieval posters for their contributions! I welcome any feedback and questions.

Jane Stradling m. William Carnsew
Katherine Trenouth m. Edmund Stradling
John Trenouth m. Honor Tregarthen
John Trenouth m. Jane Nanfan
Joane Basset m. Ralph Trenouth
Margaret Fleming m. William Basset
Cicely Champernon m. Simon Fleming
Thomas Champernon m. Eleanor de Rohart
Elizabeth de Valletort m. Richard Champernon
Hugh de Valletort, m. Lucia le Bret
??? de Columbers m. John de Valletort
Egeline de Courtenay, m. Philp IV de Columbers
Mary de Redvers, m. Robert de Courtenay
Mabile de Beaumont, m. William de Redvers
Maud de Cornwall, m. Robert de Beaumont
Reginald de Dunstanville, m. Mabel/Beatrice FitzWilliam
King Henry


Jane Stradling m. William Carnsew
Edmund Stradling m. Katherine Trenouth
Edmund Stradling m. ??? [NOT Elizabeth Arundell!]
Joan Dauntsey m. John Stradling (Joan was the widow of Sir Maurice Russell)
John Dauntsey m. Elizabeth Beverly
Joan Bavent m. John Dauntsey
Hawise Montagu m. Roger Bavent
Elizabeth de Montfort m. William Montagu
Maud de la Mare m. Peter de Montfort
Joan de Neville m. Henry de la Mare
Hawise de Courtenay m. John de Neville
Mary de Redvers, m. Robert de Courtenay
Mabile de Beaumont, m. William de Redvers
Maud de Cornwall, m. Robert de Beaumont
Reginald de Dunstanville, m. Mabel/Beatrice FitzWilliam
King Henry


Jane Stradling m. William Carnsew
Edmund Stradling m. Katherine Trenouth
Edmund Stradling m. unknown*
Joan Dauntsey m. John Stradling
John Dauntsey m. Elizabeth Beverly
Joan Bavent m. John Dauntsey
Hawise Montagu m. Roger Bavent
Elizabeth de Montfort m. William Montagu
Peter de Montfort m. Maud de la Mare
Alice de Audley m. Peter de Montfort
Bertrade Mainwaring m. Henry de Audley
Amice de Chester m. Ralph Mainwaring
Hugh de Kevelioc
Maud de Glouchester m. Ranulf de Gernon
Robert Fitzroy/de Caen m. Mabel FitzRobert
King Henry


Sources (not exhaustive by any means):
Carnsew & Stradling
1. "Stradling Correspondence" by John Traherne, 1840, P. XVIII-XX
2. "Parochial and Family History of the Deanery of Trigg Minor", vol. 2, by John MacLean, 1876, p. 169-173.

Trenouth (Trenowth, Trenowith, Trenoweth) & Basset
3. "Virginia Cousins" by Goode, p. 452
4. "Visitations of Cornwall" by Vivian

Fleming
5. Various writings on Tehidy and Simon Fleming; pretty well-documented, will provide citations if requested.
6. "Flemings of Slane" by Edward & Bryan, p. 1-12

Champernon, Valletort, Rohart (Rohant, Rohaut), le Bret
7. Vivian's "Visitations of Devon" p. 162
8. "Collections Towards a Description of the County of Devon" by Pole, p. 309-310 & p. 426
9. "The History and Antiquities of the County of Somerset" by John Collinson, p. 239

Courtenay, Valletort, Columbers
10. Ronny Bodine post to soc.gen.medieval April 16, 1999 (has a ton of original sources)

Courtenay, Redvers, Beaumont, Neville
11. "A View of Devonshire" by Thomas Westcote, p. 570
12. "History of the Suburbs of Exeter" by Charles Worthy, p. 76-92

Beaumont, Maud de Cornwall, Reginald de Dunstanville, King Henry
13. "The Dormant and Extinct Baronage of England" by TC Banks, p. 208-209


Stradling, Dauntsey
14. Writ 4 Dec inq. 8 April 3 Hen VII [1488]
15. http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/dauntsey-sir-john-1391

Bavent
16. Victoria County History of Sussex

Bavent, Montagu, Montfort
17. Complete Peerage IX:82-3, note (f)[9]

Montagu, Montfort, de la Mare, Neville, Courtenay
18. Series of posts here in November 2004 by Douglas Richardson
19. Complete Peerage 2nd edition, vol. 9, p. 120-127

Neville, Courtenay
20. Post here by Douglas Richardson on August 16, 2008



*it has been stated in some places that this Edmund Stradling married Elizabeth Arundell. However, that marriage was from the wrong generation, and marrying an Arundell is very unlikely to have gone unnoticed by most chronicles of the line.



David Ditch

[taf]

On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 5:46:34 PM UTC-7, david...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I was fortunate enough to find a link to Jane Stradling through her husband William Carnsew (Carnsewe, Carnesew, etc). I am still in the process of tracing back her seemingly endless ancestors, but suspect that at this point I will find no more links to King Henry 1.
>
> My thanks to the countless soc.gen.medieval posters for their contributions! I welcome any feedback and questions.
>
> Jane Stradling m. William Carnsew
> Katherine Trenouth m. Edmund Stradling
> John Trenouth m. Honor Tregarthen
> John Trenouth m. Jane Nanfan
> Joane Basset m. Ralph Trenouth
> Margaret Fleming m. William Basset
> Cicely Champernon m. Simon Fleming
> Thomas Champernon m. Eleanor de Rohart
> Elizabeth de Valletort m. Richard Champernon

There is a line that traces this Richard through his mother from Richard, 'king of Germany', younger son of king John, who obviously has his own line of descent from Henry I.

taf

[david...@gmail.com]

Ah yes, the question of Joan Okeston, daughter of Joan "de Valletort", who was Richard's mistress and the widow of Ralph de Valletort.

This seems like the best analysis of that issue I can find:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/1996-11/0848376678

I tend to be cautious, but this does seem persuasive...

[Monica Kanellis via]

but who was Joan, the mother? has anyone narrowed down a few suspects?

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>

[david...@gmail.com]

No background information has been found on Joan "de Valletort", and at this point I seriously doubt anything will be found, considering that this particular situation has been the subject of so much research and discussion over the years.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Dave ~

I've repeated below the first descent for Jane Stradling which you posted earlier. This descent breaks at Generation 7. My research indicates that Egeline de Courtenay (Generation 6 below) and her husband, Philip de Columbers, had two sons, Philip de Columbers (died 1276-7) and John de Columbers (died 1306). John de Columbers (died 1306) in turn had two sons, Philip de Columbers, Knt., Lord Columbers (died 1342) and Stephen de Columbers, clerk, living 1342.

At the death of Philip de Columbers, Lord Columbers in 1342, the entire Columbers inheritance went to other parties by previous settlements made in Lord Columbers' lifetime. If Lord Columbers had an aunt who left Valletort issue, it is doubtful that the entire Columbers estate would have been diverted in this fashion.

It is known from a plea dated 1280 that Hugh de Valletort (Generation 8 below) was the grandson of a certain Philip de Columbers. It was thought by some in the past (myself included) that this Philip de Columbers was the one whose wife was Egeline de Courtenay. Upon further research, I now believe that Hugh de Valletort's grandfather was actually a certain Philip son of William de Columbers who was party to an agreement regarding Somersetshire lands dated 1261-2, which record is published in Dunning, Hylle Cartulary (Somerset Rec. Soc. 68) (1968): 18. This record may be viewed in snippet view at the following weblink:

https://books.google.com/books?id=4s4xAQAAIAAJ&q=Philip+Columbers+1262&dq=Philip+Columbers+1262&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAGoVChMIq86C5tzJxwIV0QOSCh0LGQN6

Philip son of William de Columbers is presumably the Philip de Columbers mentioned in a Somersetshire lawsuit dated 1270, published in Somersetshire Pleas 2 (Somerset Rec. Soc. 36) (1923): 133, which record may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015038663434;view=1up;seq=145

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + +
1. King Henry I of England, died 1135.
2. Reynold Fitz Roy, Earl of Cornwall, m. Mabel Fitz William.
3. Maud of Cornwall, m. Robert II, Count of Meulan.
4. Mabel of Meulan, m. William de Vernon (or de Riviers), Earl of Devon.
5. Mary de Vernon, m. Robert de Courtenay, Knt.
6. Egeline de Courtenay, m. Philip IV de Columbers, died 1262.
7. ??? de Columbers m. John de Valletort.
8. Hugh de Valletort, m. Lucy le Bret.
9. Elizabeth de Valletort m. Richard de Champernoun.
10. Thomas Champernoun m. Eleanor de Rohart.
11. Cecily Champernoun m. Simon Fleming.
12. Margaret Fleming m. William Basset.
13. Joan Basset m. Ralph Trenouth.
14. John Trenouth m. Jane Nanfan.
15. John Trenouth m. Honor Tregarthen.
16. Katherine Trenouth m. Edmund Stradling.
17. Jane Stradling m. William Carnsew.

On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 6:46:34 PM UTC-6, david...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I was fortunate enough to find a link to Jane Stradling through her husband William Carnsew (Carnsewe, Carnesew, etc). I am still in the process of tracing back her seemingly endless ancestors, but suspect that at this point I will find no more links to King Henry 1.
>
> My thanks to the countless soc.gen.medieval posters for their contributions! I welcome any feedback and questions.
>
>
>
> Jane Stradling m. William Carnsew

[david...@gmail.com]

Douglas,

Thank you! Your point is very reasonable, and is convincing enough for me to remove Egeline de Courtenay from my tree, since the waters are muddied on which Philip de Columbers is the correct one. Also, this does rather minimal damage to my tree, considering that the Columbers line doesn't go very far and that I already have Egeline's sister Hawise, so it's not a big loss.

Additional kudos for your herculean efforts on Maud de la Mare and surrounding generations. I am very confident in the documentation of that line; in fact, the weakest part almost certainly comes AFTER Jane Stradling, since I am currently having to rely on book pedigrees for a few Carnsew generations spanning the 1500s and early 1600s.



David

[sabaris...@gmail.com]

VCH Somerset vol VI, 113-118, sub Stockland, has the following: "In 1166 William Lovel held the fee. By the mid 13th century it had probably passed to William de Columbers of Stockland (fl. 1254), almost certainly a younger son of Maud de Chandos and Philip de Columbers of Nether Stowey. William (d. by 1262) was succeeded by his son Philip. Philip died probably c. 1279 and William, possibly his son, was dead by 1280. Although Philip had a grandson Hugh de Vautort, Stockland Lovel passed c. 1280 to Philip's cousin John de Columbers, lord of Nether Stowey."

[david...@gmail.com]

If I read this correctly, the claim is that the Philip who was Hugh's grandfather roughly lines up with John, who (from what I can see) was the son of Philip IV and Egeline de Courtenay. Yet it looks like "Philip grandfather of Hugh" should instead line up with the generation of Philip III, since the claim is that he is son of William, son of Philip I.

A key point: Philip I was dead by 1186. Would his son "fl. in 1254" and die ~1262?

This all seems very sketchy and uncertain to me.

[wilsonr...@gmail.com]

Dear David ,
I Googled in Jane Stradling and william Carnsew /William a descent of my Tree Jewell/Carnsew .And i came upon your information ,Ihad Jane married to some one different and married three times ,i am so please that i googled and found your information ,iam going to sit and read all this ,i hoe you don't mind .Thank you
Regards
Raelene Wilson
Melbourne Australia

[david...@gmail.com]

> Dear David ,
> I Googled in Jane Stradling and william Carnsew /William a descent of my Tree Jewell/Carnsew .And i came upon your information ,Ihad Jane married to some one different and married three times ,i am so please that i googled and found your information ,iam going to sit and read all this ,i hoe you don't mind .Thank you
> Regards
> Raelene Wilson
> Melbourne Australia

I have not looked into whether Jane had multiple marriages, or if there were multiple Janes.

Here is some more sourcing.

1. From Douglas Richardson in a 2007 post:
-----
Be that as it may, I recently found a brief mention of Alice Langford's husband, John Stradling, and their daughter, Anne (Stradling) Danvers, in the book, Llyfr Baglan, published in 1910. This work is based on pedigrees collected by John Willisms in the period, 1600-1607. On pages 279, the following information is presented:

"This Sr Edward [Stradling] had to his brothere John Stradlinge, knight, who ma. w'th the heire of dauncie [Dauntsey] in wilshir and had issue sir Edmond, who had issue John and Edmond; John had issue the ladie dauers, of whome the davers, hungerfordes, fynes and levets and a great p'genye of theme are descended, and of the said Edmond cometh Carnysoyes of Cornwall.").
-----

2. Yet another source is Historical Survey of the County of Cornwall vol. 2 by Gilbert from 1820, p. 53-54, which like many other sources can be found through Google Books.

3. http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/carnsew-william-1497-1570

And Vivian's work (cited in the OP) is based on records from 1620.

I'm confident in this.

[P J Evans]

Also there's "Memorials of the Danvers Family of Dauntsey".

[barch...@metooplace.com]

I know this post is a bit old, but I am trying to find out the children of Jane Stradling and William Carnsewe. I found some information that this family's (Carnsewe's) original last name was Thomas and took on the name Carnsewe after living on the manor. My records tell me that Jane and William may have had a son named William John Thomas but I cannot find proof anywhere of this child or if they had other children. My line comes from the Thomas's who then may have become Carnsewe. Any info would be helpful, thanks!

On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 6:46:34 PM UTC-6, david...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 6:46:34 PM UTC-6, david...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 6:46:34 PM UTC-6, david...@gmail.com wrote:

--

4304 Austin Bluffs Parkway • Colorado Springs, CO 80918
metooplace.com • (719) 596-7359

[david...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 2:45:54 PM UTC-5, barch...@metooplace.com wrote:
> I know this post is a bit old, but I am trying to find out the children of Jane Stradling and William Carnsewe. I found some information that this family's (Carnsewe's) original last name was Thomas and took on the name Carnsewe after living on the manor. My records tell me that Jane and William may have had a son named William John Thomas but I cannot find proof anywhere of this child or if they had other children. My line comes from the Thomas's who then may have become Carnsewe. Any info would be helpful, thanks!
>
>

They seem to have had 5 children, based on the pedigree in "The Parochial and Family History of the Deanery of Trigg Minor vol. 2" by Maclean (free .pdf available on Google Books), pp. 172-173. Immediately after this is the "Thomas" pedigree, which appears to be separate from the older/main line. Sorry to say that I don't think the Thomas family connects to Jane Stradling.

(In the end it's just a matter of whether there is an unbroken line of documentation for a specific line of royal descent; genealogical math says that anyone with English heritage should be descended from the likes of King Henry 1, even if it can't be shown exactly how)