William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to regioster of Carisbrooke
paul bulkley
briefly the early origins of the Redver family who's
home base was Reviers, Calvadas, arr Caen cant
Creully.
Stapleton claimed that there were three brothers
Richard, William, and Baldwin according to a 1060
Charter. Richard died 1060, and he theorised that
Richard de Redvers, the favored counsellor of Henry
Ist, was a son of Baldwin.
Presumably Stapleton was aware of Charter 1258 (CDF)
issued 1060 in which Landri Abbot of St Pere
(Chartres) recorded a gift by Richard (Knight).
Witness: Raber and William de Vernon.
It would appear that Richard de Redvers was an adult
in 1060, so it is quite reasonable to assume that
prior to his death that he had married and had
children. On that basis there was no need of Stapleton
to arrive at a rather questionable claim that Richard
de Redvers, his sister Adeliz, and brother Hugh were
the children of Baldwin.
On the premis that they were in fact Richard's
children, they would have all been born prior to 1060.
It is known that Richard de Redvers must have married
Adelise Peverel 1086-1088, and died premature in 1107.
Adelicia married Richard de Angerville, and her
brother Richard confirmed that the land at Benouville
granted to Montebourg Abbey was the land of his
sister.
The parents of the three brothers Richard, William,
and Baldwin requires further investigation. The common
name usage of both Vernon and Redvers suggests a
family connection. Keats Rohan suggests that perhaps
Hugh de Vernon and wife (daughter of Fulk Fitz Osbern,
who's mother Sateselina was a niece of the Norman
duchess Gunnor) were the parents.
Charter 82 (CDF) dated 1067 Notification by William de
Vernon (son) Hugh and wife Emma of agreement made and
to the Abbot Rainer in Vernon Milt Place to receive
fellowship of Abbey Holy Trinity Rouen, freedom of
toll of property including castle of Vernon. Witness:
William and Emma.
Is this William de Vernon one of the three brothers or
not?
Bearman claims that the Revier Estate 1089 centred in
Nehou (Contentin) and Vernon (Vexin), so it is quite
likely that the Charter 82 William de Vernon was one
of the three brothers, and that Hugh Vernon and wife
Emma were the parents.
Sincerely Yours,
Paul Bulkley
__________________________________________________
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Todd A. Farmerie
> It would appear that Richard de Redvers was an adult
> in 1060, so it is quite reasonable to assume that
> prior to his death that he had married and had
> children.
Except that it appears from contemporary material that he had no
children. Everyone seems in agreement on this.
> Keats Rohan suggests that perhaps
> Hugh de Vernon and wife (daughter of Fulk Fitz Osbern,
> who's mother Sateselina was a niece of the Norman
> duchess Gunnor) were the parents.
In DP she says this. In her Notts. Medieval Studies article, she says
that the mother was a sister of Fulk. I think she has made a msitake in DP.
taf
Ginny Wagner
William de Vernon 1050/1060, and details of their
children. >
The index of Round's Calendar of Documents from which I gave the
Redvers also has an interesting list of Vernons:
Vernon, Vernun [Eure], 23, 142, 469
castle of, 23, 529
port of, 97, 100
Vernon, Raber de, 456
Richard (son of William [II]) de, 35, 101, 309, 318, 469, 537
charter of, 317, 336
Richard son of, 469
Walter de, 59, 219
William (I.) de, 456
gifts of, 23
Emma wife of 23,
Hugh son of, 23
William (II., brother of Baldwin, 1st earl), 34, 309, 314, 336, 343,
349, 518
gifts of, 309, 317
Robert de Sancte Marie ecclesia brother of, 314
William (III.), the younger (son of Baldwin 1st earl), 316, 318
earl of Devon, 322
charter of, 321
Mabel wife of, 321
pages 97 and 100 have to do with the port of Vernon. page 142 is to
do with a list of aggression ca. 1088-1099 against the abbey of the
Holy Trinity, Caen, of which Hugh de Redeveris, who withheld, yerarly,
five muids of wine and a vineyard at Vernun, ...and others. I may
have missed another entry, if so and anyone wants to see it, or those
at the port, let me know.
Pg. 23:
Abbey of the Holy Trinity, Rouen
"[Circ. 1087] Cartulary, No. xvi. Trans. 13. See ut supra, p. 430.
"Notification that William de Vernon (Vernonensis) his son Hugh and
his wife Emma, receiving the fellowship of the abbey have given Holy
Trinity [freedom from] toll on all its property, by water or by land,
so far as concerns themselves or the castle of Vernon. This agreement
was made in the market place (foro) of Vernon by abbot Rainer, before
suitable witnesses, to whom also, at their urgent request, be granted
the fellowship of the abbey. William king of the English and duke of
the Normans assents.
"{Signa] Willelmi Regis Anglorum; Willelmi Vernonensis; Emme uxoris
ejus; Orardi; Normanni filii Ruil; Anseredi filii Gerelmi; Walterii
filii Ricardi; Raberii longi; Letardi thelonarii; Gisleberti Taillant;
Herberti macecrarii; Willelmi filii Gonfredi macecrarii; Osmundi filii
ejus; Ricardi filii Herberti gravatoris."
Page 34 Town of Rouen, charter 109 has a very long charter by Henry,
duke of Normady dated 1150-1 that establishes the same rights to the
town and its members that they held when King Henry was alive and
dead. It is a very interesting document for its particulars from a
historical standpoint but too long for me to type out here although I
would be glad to send a scan of it to anyone who emails me requesting
it. The last paragraph is:
"Has etiam concessiones tenendas ceperunt in manu Phippus Baiocensis
episcopus, et Arnulfus Lexoviensis episcopus, et eas affiduciaverunt
tenendas Walleranus comes Mellenti, Helias frater ducis [Gaufridi],
Willelmus[1] Lupell[us], Robertus de Novo burgo, Richerius de Aquila,
Willelmus de Vernone, Rogerius de Toenio, Baudricus de Bosco,
Hamalricus Crespin, Goschelinus Crespin, Gislebertus Crespin, Henricus
de Ferr[ariis], Robertus de Torceio, Ricardo (sic) de haya,
Enguer[gerus] de Bohun, Alexander de Bohun, Guido de Sabl[olio],
Absalon Rongnart, archiepiscopo Rothomagensi; Reg[inaldo][2] de Sancto
Waller[ico]; Pagano[3] de Clarevalle; Enguerranno de Saio. Apud
Rothomagum.
"[fn1] Trans.: "ducis Willelmi." [fn2] Trans.: "Rogero" [fn3]
Trans.: "Pageno."
Page 249 Abbey of Mont St. Michel:
"[1024-6] (Cartulary, fo. 21.[3] [fn3] the modern numbering has been
adopted. Trans. Vol. II. fo. 215)
"701. Charter of Richard [II.] duke and prince of the Normans.
Seeking to escape the pains of hell and obtain the joys of paradise,
after the death of his body, he delivers to Mont St. Michel, and the
brethren there serving God as monks a certain vill of his own alod
(alodii) in the Bessin, Versum by name, with all its lands cultivated
or not, and all the mills, with meadows and woods. This he does for
the redemption of his soul and those of his father and mother, his
wife and his sons. Curses on those who violate this testimony of his
gift (hujus donationis testamentum).
"[Signa] Richardi magni comitis; Richardi filii ejus; Rotberti filii
ejus; Willelmi; Gonnor matris comitis; Papie uxoris comitis; Rotberti
archiepiscopi; Hugonis Baiocensis episcopi; Hugonis Ebroicensis
episcopi; maugisi Abrincatensis episcopi."
pg. 314 Abbey of Monebourg:
"[1142-1155] (Ibid., fos. 4, 139 Trans vol. II. fo. 175)
"878. Letter of Adeliza de Reviers to Goscelin bishop of Salisbury,
notifying her gift to the abbey of Montebourg of the manor of
Ouelaium[1], which is in his dicese, free and quit, by consent of her
sons and grandsons, her father William Peverel of Notingham having
given that manor with her to Richard de Revers, and she having held it
in her own demesne till the time of this gift. She implores him
therefore to confirm this gift of his mercy, and to protect the monks
there dwelling, etc. ... "
'[fn1] Ouuelay on fo. 4.
same page:
"[1142-1155] (Original in archives. Trans Vol. II. fo. 186.)
879. Charter of Baldwin earl of Exeter notifying that, for the weal
of his soul and those of his father and mother and all his
predecessors and successors, he grants to the abbey of Montebourg and
the monks there serving God all the gifts made to them by his father,
Richard de Reveriis, in England, wholly quit of all dues to himself,
his heirs or representatives (proheredes) namely, a manor in Devon, in
the diocese of Exeter, called Axemud, with all its appurtenances and
the church; and a fishery, with two draggers (traeribus[2]), who are
there to drag with nets; another manor in Dorset, in the diocese of
Salisbury, in the isle of With called Wica, with all its
appurtenances. He also grans a manor in Berkesyr, in the diocese of
Salisbury, called Oluelay,[3], which Adeliz de Reveriis gave, with all
its appurtenances; also all the gifts made or to be made by his men in
land or anythings else, free from all dues to himself, his heirs or
representatives.
"His testibus: Ricardo de Redvers; Willelmo filio Johannis; Willelmo
de Morevilla; Hugone Pevrel; Willelmo filio Estur; Ricardo de
Caisneio; Rogero capellano; Pevrel de Argentonio."
"[fn2] Trans.: "Tracribus."
same page:
(Originial in archives. Trans. Vol II. fo. 191) [1142-1155]
Vidimus by Peter royal bailli of the Cotentin in 1288 of the
following: --
880. Charter of Baldwin earl of Exeter. He gives to St. Mary of
Montebourg, with the permission of his sons Richard, Henry and his
brothers William de Vernone and Robert de Sancte Marie Ecclesia, for
the weal of his soul, and for the souls of his father and mother, his
predecessors and successors, a certain manor in Berkshire, Ouelay,[4],
by name, with all its appurtenances.
Comitis vero signum: [Signa] Ricardi filii sui; Willermi de
Morevilla; Jordani de Lestrie; Gaufridi Spencer; Walteri de Clamorgan;
Willermi de Vernone; Roberti fratris ejus."
"[fn4] Trans.: "Onelay."
pg. 316: Abbey of Montebourg
"[1171] (Original in archives. Trans. Vol. II. fo. 180)
"887. Charter of Henry king of the English, duke of the Normans and
count of the Angevins, son of king Henry, addressed to the
archbishops, etc. of England. He confirms to the abbey of montebourg
the manor of Wuelay [4], with its appurtences, which Alice de
Reveriis, mother of earl Baldwin gave them, of her marriage portion,
for ever, and which William de Vernon the younger confirmed.
"Testibus: Gaufrid archidiacono Cantuariensi; Ricardo archidiacono
Pietavensi; Reginaldo Sarisberiensi [1]; [archidiacono]; Johanne
decano[2]; Ricardo de Ca[m]ville; Reginaldo de Curtenay; Willelmo de
Lanval[eio]; Hugone de Cressy; Willelmo de Sancto Johanne. Apud
Burum.
"[fn4] "Wnclay" in transcript. [fn1] "Sarresbury" in Transcript.
[fn2] i.e., of Salisbury."
Pg. 318 Abbey of Montebourg:
"[1175. March] (Original in archives Trans Vol. II. fol 189)
"891. Charter of Henry II. confirming to the abbey of Montebourg all
William de Vernon's gifts to it of the chapel of St. MAglorius in the
island of Serck.
"Testibus: Godefrido episcopo Eliensi[1]; magistro Waltero [de]
Constanciis archidiacono Oxoniensi; Ricardo de Vernone; Fulcone
Paienello; Ricardo de Canvilla[2]; Raginaldo de Curtenay; Hugone de
Cressy; Willelmo de Vernone juniore. Apud Cadomum.[3]
"[fn1] Rectius: "Gaufrido." [fn2] Trans.: "Cauvilla." [fn3] A
general confirmation by the king to the abbey of all the grants made
to it, with the same witnesses and at the same place was "inspected,"
in 1381 (Montebourg Cartulary, fos. 1-3d)."
Page 321 Abbey of Montebourg:
"[Circ. 1196] (Cartulary, fo. 5, Trans. Vol. II. Fo. 111)
"904. Charter of William de Vernone, earl of Devon notifying that for
the weal of his soul, and those of his wife Mabel he predecessors and
successors, he approves the gift made by his grandmother Adeliz de
Revers to the abbey of St. Mary of Montebourg and its monks of the
manor of Wolvel in Berkesyr with all its appurtenances.
"Hiis testibus: Willelmo filio Estur; Waltero de Insula; Rogero de
Aula; Samson Foliot; Willelmo et Thoma de Monasteriiis; Willelmo de
Insula; Ricardo de Daneu ...[11]; Roberto pincerna; Paulino et Symone
clericis, et multis aliis.
"[fn11] Trans.: "Dawentry."
Same page:
"[Circ. 1196] (Cartulary, fo. 6. Trans. Vol. II., fo. 112.)
"905. Letter of William earl of Devon to Hubert, archbishop of
Canterbury, primate of all England, and legate, and to the barons of
the exchequer of his lord the king notifying that he has restored, out
of piety, to the abbey of Montebourg the manor of Wolvel' ut supra.
He prays them of their charity to confirm what he has done."
Page 322 Abbey of Montebourg:
"[1195-97. 26 June.] (Cartulary, fo. 6 Trans vol. II fo. 112.)
"906. Letters of patent of Hubert archbishop [1] of Canterbury,
primate of all England, notifying that William de Vernone earl of
Devon has, in his presence, restored to Montebourg abbey the manor of
Wolvelay, with all its appurtenances, which Adeliza de Reveriis, his
grandmother, had given to the abbey, whose gift the earl had confirmed
by his charter, which the primate has inspected. And the earl has
quitclaimed that manor to the abbey for ever ....
"Testibus: H[erberto] Sar[isberiensi[2]] episcopo; Gaufrido filio
Petri; Hugone Bard[ulf]; Willelmo Bruwer; Gaufrido de Boel'. Apud
Westm[onasterium][3] xxvj.Junii. Per magistrum Adam de Walsingham.
"[fn1] Trans.: "episocpus" [fn2] Trans.: "Salisbury." [fn3] Trans.
: "Westim"
Page 456 Abbey of St. Pere, Chartres, [Cartularies in Bibliotheque
Nationale and Public Library of Chartres[1]
'[1060, 4 Aug] (Cartulaire de St. Pere de Chartres I. 152)
"1256. Charter of Landri, abbot of S. Pere de Chartres, and all the
convent notifying how the land they posses at Gouberville (Gausberti
villa) was given them by a certain knight of noble origin, Richard by
name, and granted by William, the most noble count of Normandy, and
the said knight's brothers, William and Baldwin.
"In the year when there came to an end the long war between king Henry
and count William, the said knight Richard, had been sent with other
Normans, by the count, to guard Timer (Tedmarum castrum), which was
then, with its inhabitants, under anathema. Attacked, while there, by
the illness from which he died, he was in great dread for his soul,
and sent for Nigel, who had married his sister, with other friends,
and begged that Goeffrey a monk of St. Pere, who happened to be
present, would hasten to the bishop and procure absolution both for
him and rfor the others, and that they would carry him to the
monastery for burial, on the terms that the monks, thenceforward for
ever should posses a third of Gouberville, the knights excepted,
namely, whatever he had possessed in houses, lands, meadows, waters,
church, oxen. Absolution having been obtained, and his body buried,
with the rites of religion, among the nobles of the city, the monks
inscribed his ame among those benefactors, to whom they owed their
endowments. The gift was authorised by the above glorious count
William, for the reward of celestial life, at Courdemanche (Curtis
Dominicus), not far from Dreux (castrum Drocis), in the presence of
his nobles of whom these are the names: William son of Osbert, Walter
Gifardus, Fulc de Alno, Hubert de Rigia, Robert Bertrannus, William
Marmion, Rainald Darsellus, Ralf Falchemandus, Humfrey, Turold,
William son of Corbucio[2], Bencelin de Scoht, Raber and William de
Vernone, Hugh son of Gerelm. It was also authorised by the brothers
of the deceased William and Baldwin, that they also might be
partakers, with their brother, in his reward etc. .... Concessa est et
roborata haec donacio pridie nonas Augusti die qua mortuus est
hainricus rex Franciae."
"[fn1] Published in the series of "Documents Inedits" (1840), with
extracts from Dom Muley's 18th century Transcripts from original
charters of the abbey. [fn2] Domesday I., 61, 177b, 243."
page 469 under Royal Charters, Etc.:
"[1196, Jan] (Tresor des Chartes K. 26, Tarns. 44)
"1293. Notification by Philip II that Richard de Vernone and Richard
his son have quitclaimed to him and his heirs for ever, at the behest
of Richard king of the English (Angl') Vernon with its castellany and
Longueville (Longa Villa), both fee and demesne, receiving in exchange
from him, as represting (pro) 800 pounds of Paris rent, certain
estates (specified) to be held of him and his heirs in fee and liege
homage by the service of five knights, according to the usage and
custom of France.
"Actum Parisiis anno incarnati verbi MC nonagesimo quinto, regni
nostri anno septimo decimo.
page 518 Abbey of Mortemer in the Appendix I:
"1147, 11 Oct. (MS. lat. fo. 26)
"1405. Charter of Geoffrey duke of Normandy (sic) and count of Anjou,
addressed to Hugh archbishop of Rouen and generally, making same
grants as above for the souls of his father Fulk king of Jerusalem and
his mother the countess Erenburgis, and himself and his wife Maltildis
and his sons and king Henry (I.) and all his friends.
"Testes hujus rei sunt: Ricardus cancellarius; Willelmus de Romara
comes Linc[olnie]; Willelmus de Vernon; Robertus de Novoburgo;
Alexander de Boh[un]; Osbertus de Caileio; Eng[elrannus] de Walcoil;
Joisleno de Turr[ibus]; Goffredo de Brueria. Hec vero concessio facta
est et hec carta data apud Rotomagum anno ab incarnatione Domini
MCXLVII a pascha precedenti mense Octobri v id' ejusdem mensis epacta
xxviij."
This from Power's The Norman Frontier:
Vernon (Nehou)
1. Richard II de Redvers d. 1107 = Adeliza Peverel dc. 1160
1.1 Adeliza = Baldwin de Redvers d. 1155 (Earl Baldwin I of Devon)
1.1.1 earls of Devon (to c. 1191)
1.1.2 William de Vernon, earl of Devon c. 1191-1217
1.1.2.1 Earls of Devon (to 1293)
1.2 William I de Vernon fl. 1107-66 = Lucy de Tancarville d. bef.
1166
1.2.1 Richard I de Vernon d. 1196x1211 = Isabella
1.2.1.1. Baldwin d. by 1196
1.2.1.2. Richard II d. 1231 x 34 = Lucy du Hommet fl. 1234
1.2.1.2.1 John castellan of Montmelian d. 1232 (o.x.) x 1234 =
Elizabeth her 2 husband = William de Chantilly (castellan of
Monmelian, 1236)
1.2.1.2.2 William II de Vernon fl. 1273, d. 1284 castellan of
Montmelian = Alina
1.2.1.2.3 Peter d. by 1234
1.2.1.2.4 Isabella d. 1254 lady of Plailly = William d. by 1254
1.2.1.3 Margaret fl. 1249 = (1) John Arsic d. 1205, (2) Thomas of
Stokes fl. 1205, (3) William Buzun fl. 1217 x 23
1.2.2 . Matilda fl. 1185 = Richard de la Haye d.c. 1169
1.2.3. Hugh (clk.) fl. 1174
1.2.4. Dreux d. 1212? = ?Alice
1.2.5 Baldwin d. by 1166
1.2.6 Juliana fl. 1216 = William de Venoix d. by 1216
1.3 Hawise fl. 1162 x 71 = William I de Roumare
1.4 Robert de Ste-Mere-Eglise
1.5 Hugh de Vernon d. by 1174?
2. Adeliza
3. (brokn line) Hugh de Redvers (Rights at Vernon)
Robert de la Haye fl. 1286 ld. of nehou
Mary = William Caletot fl. 284-7 castellan of Montmelian
Powers has more interesting discussion on the Vernon/Redvers in
several places in the book as well as a full page of discussion of
this chart.
Hope all this sheds some light on the subject. ;-) Ginny
Luke Potter
Thanks for posting these. One charter you cited is the famous one
which Round mistranslated stating William and his son Hugh rather than
William son of Hugh.
Thanks especially for the 1060 charter; this I found I no longer had
on file and was planning to dig this out again! It is very interesting
as it seems that there are two Williams. The first is the brother of
Richard and Baldwin de Redvers who are all brothers in law to Nigel.
The William de Vernon who is a witness with Raher however seems to be
a distinct person from the other William.
My have a vague theory as to this second William. Keats-Rohan in the
DP entry for Huard de Vernon mentioned that an Odard had confirmed the
grant of his son Peter, daughter in law Grisca, and other sons
Geoffrey, Walter, Payn and Hugh to St Coulombs in 1052. Peter son of
Odard and Hugh his brother both witnessed William de Vernon 1077
charter to Bec. In 1097 an Odard de Vernon granted land from his
maternal inheritance in Longueville to Jumieges with the assent of his
brother Richard. Keats-Rohan suggests that this Odard is perhaps the
same as the Domesday Huard de Vernon in Suffolk.
I am wondering whether Peter son of Odard could perhaps be identified
with Peter de Blaru who it is said founded the Priory of St Hilaire in
the 1050s. According to the Life of St Adjutor, Peter was father of a
William who was father to Rosamund de Blaru who married John de
Vernon. Their children included Matthew de Vernon and Adjutor. We can
identify Matthew from charters of the 1130s and he was lord of land in
Longueville (now St Pierre d'Autils, Pressagny, and Tourny) and also
had siblings Richard and Eustachia. His father John is elusive, but
perhaps he was not a blood member of the Vernon family and the lands
which we find in Matthew's hands in the 1130s had come down to him
through his mother Rosamund? Part of the difficulty in accepting the
family background as it is given of St Adjutor has been connecting
John de Vernon into what we already know about the Vernons in
Normandy. It could however have been through the lands that Rosamund
brought to the marriage that John was described as a Vernon with their
children subsequently taking the Vernon name. As the Life of St
Adjutor states that Rosamund's father was a William it could be him
who was mentioned in 1060 and of whom not much further is know,
perhaps due to a young death. Certainly Peter son of Odard who was
active from 1052 to 1077 was a man with the right name and in the
right place at the right time to be identified with Peter de Blaru,
the founder of a local priory.
It is just a tentative working theory at present but it is an
interesting way of making sense of the story of St Adjutor's family
and also the known lords of Vernon from the Vernon/Redvers branch.
What I would like to know is the background of the names of Peter and
Raher/Raber. They are both quite rare names in eleventh century
Normandy. Does anyone know their origin? Could they even be variants
of the same name?
In the meantime I am trying to find a researcher in France who can dig
out the material that Keats-Rohan refers to in DP to see if anything
further is said about this line of Peters and Odards. A further
interesting line of speculation is whether Richard, the brother of
Odard mentioned in 1097, could be the Richard de Vernon of Domesday
Cheshire. Keats-Rohan does not go into this. Also what happens to the
Richard de Vernon who is described as brother of Matthew de Vernon in
Matthews charters of the 1130s? It is worth a thought that a Matthew
de Vernon appears in the Pipe Rolls in Oxfordshire in 1130.
Furthermore the names of Matthew and Eustachia both crop up at the end
of the twelfth century and thirteenth centuries in the lines of the
Vernons of Shipbrook and also that of the Vernons of Haddon. Richard
de Vernon of Shipbrook has traditionally been described as a son of
William de Vernon, lord of Vernon, but this is only really an
antiquarian tradition and there is no real evidence as far as I can
see to support this. I think investigation into the line of Peter son
of Odard might perhaps provide a few answers (and no doubt, just as
many questions!)
Luke Potter
Ginny Wagner
I'm glad the posting was helpful. Your explanation is helping me to
understand what all this means. Yes, there was one Vernon that did
seem to be distinct from the others but I included him just in case it
might give a clue. I've looked up Raher and found nothing further --
if I were to speculate I'd say that raher and raber were certainly
candidates for being the same -- from what I've seen of those old
documents it is a miracle any of the names have come through with any
consistency. But, as a mere novice and without doing any further
research, I'd hesitate to make that judgement.
I've looked up Odard and there are two more charters with his name,
one on page 65 under the abbey of Foucarmont wherein William Marshal
with the assent of his wife, Isabel, grants the gift [specified] which
Odard the physician has made to the abbey of Foucarmont and the monks
there with signators that are unfamiliar to me. The date of the
charter is 1198. Let me know if you want a copy of it. The other is
on page 217, a charter of Henry II confirming to Hugh de Laci and his
heirs the donation fo Robert count of Mellent, to be held as Robert de
Pinu and Odard and Walter held. It is ca. 1166-1181. Both of these
are much too late for the mid 11c you mention for Odard, nor do they
mention a son or father Peter so I haven't bothered to type them in
although I'd be happy to send you a scanned copy, etc.
Found nothing under Blaru but one entry under Longavilla, pg. 146
under the Abbey of the Holy Trinity, Caen, a charter of Thomas Bardul,
giving the abbey 30 shilllings sterling of annual rent, in England
from his mill of Elwadeston[e] on the Derwent with his daughter
Mathildis, made a nun there by consent of his wife Rohais, mother of
Mathildis, of whose inheritances was the mill ... testibus Balduino de
Toeny; Willelmo de Longavilla; Osberto capellano; Ansquetillo clerico,
etc. ca. 1170-1187.
Your reasoning seems sound to me re your theory -- sounds like you are
getting help from the area that would have the information. Let me
know if I can help you further. I've done virtually nothing after
about 1166 except copy some existing information from Keats-Rohan and
CTG on my own stuff so am totally unfamiliar with the 13c. Am writing
a novel that takes place in the first half of the 12c so have
purposely tried to avoid learning anything that would contaminate my
story's characters with knowledge they shouldn't have. ;-) Ginny
cottes...@gmail.com
richar...@live.co.uk
Slightly linked to this conversation in relation to Richard de Redvers, who died in 1107:
What I have been trying to work out please are his connections as possibly being an ancestor of the de Vernon barons of Shipbrook, in Cheshire.
In Bearmans book on the charters of the de Redvers family, it does not appear as far as I remember to describe any link to the barons of Shipbrook.
On some trees, they have William de Vernon, son of Richard de Redvers, who married Lucy de Tanquerville, as the grandfather of Warin de Vernon, baron of Shipbrook (born about 1148), who married Maud de Baliol.
But on "The Vernon Family" website, they have that William's brother Hugh, as being ancestor of the Shipbrook Vernons:
"The third son (of Richard de Redvers) was Hugh de Vernon, Baron of Shipbrook, from whom the Shipbrook Vernons descend."
http://www.cheshirenow.co.uk/vernon_family.html
This above website also states that Richard de Redvers was:
"known to have fought at the Battle of Hastings along with his brother Walter, for which he was rewarded with lands in Cheshire under the patronage of Hugh d'Avranches, 1st Earl of Chester. Richard settled at Shipbrook, about 2 miles to the south east of Northwich and was created Baron of Shipbrooke."
And this above statement seems to contradict the first one I put on here which gives Richard's son Hugh as being the one from who the Shipbrook Vernons descend.
Now, from what I have read in Bearman's book, the above information is different in relation to Richard de Redvers. Bearman's book states that Richard de Redvers was granted the feudal barony of Plympton, in Devon, after supporting Henry I before he came onto the throne. According to Wikipedia, in the Domesday book of 1086, he was listed as holding Mosterton in Dorset. There is no mention of Shipbrook in Cheshire, or of where he settled. Wikipedia also states that Richard MAY have been given Mosterton in return for serving in William the Conqueror's army in 1066. So this does not indicate that he definitely was there.
Also, in relation to Richard de Redvers son William de Vernon, Bearman's book states that this William succeeded to the family's Norman estates.
It does not give any account of what happened to Richard de Redvers son Hugh.
If anybody has any information at all, or any ideas relating to the above, it would be gratefully appreciated.
Thank you.
Richard Ebdon.
richar...@live.co.uk
Following on from my last post, I believe I may have solved the puzzle of the Vernon barons of Shipbrook in relation to Richard de Redvers being their ancestor:
It seems Richard de Redvers was not the ancestor of these barons:
According to a link on this website:
https://www.geni.com/people/Warin-de-Vernon-6th-Baron-of-Shipbrook/6000000001531238173
The first baron of Shipbrook was:
"Richard de Vernon, son of William de Vernon of Vernon Castle in Normandy created by Hugh Lupus Earl of Chester, Baron of Shipbrook 1070, was grantee of Leftwich and fourteen other manors in Cheshire, at the time of the Domesday survey."
The family tree above quoted from "Heraldic illustrations, by J. and J. B. Burke, Volume 2" then shows Richard being followed by William de Vernon, and then Hugh de Vernon as the next Barons of Shipbrook:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5S0BAAAAQAAJ&pg=PT147&lpg=PT147&dq=hugh+de+vernon+shipbrook+castle&source=bl&ots=4ZX6yLP1CN&sig=NITfo0Bl4tHZUoAVJkhF9pp7-sQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iHNgU4K-GYiO8gHOz4GYDw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=hugh%20de%20vernon%20shipbrook%20castle&f=false
Much obliged.
Richard Ebdon.
taf
> Following on from my last post, I believe I may have solved the puzzle
> of the Vernon barons of Shipbrook in relation to Richard de Redvers
> being their ancestor:
>
> It seems Richard de Redvers was not the ancestor of these barons:
> According to a link on this website:
> https://www.geni.com/people/Warin-de-Vernon-6th-Baron-of-Shipbrook/6000000001531238173
>
> The first baron of Shipbrook was:
>
> "Richard de Vernon, son of William de Vernon of Vernon Castle in Normandy
> created by Hugh Lupus Earl of Chester, Baron of Shipbrook 1070, was grantee
> of Leftwich and fourteen other manors in Cheshire, at the time of the
> Domesday survey."
> The family tree above quoted from "Heraldic illustrations, by J. and J. B.
> Burke, Volume 2" then shows Richard being followed by William de Vernon,
> and then Hugh de Vernon as the next Barons of Shipbrook:
taf
richar...@live.co.uk
There was however a "Richard of Vernon" who in the Domesday book of 1086, held Leftwich and other manors in Cheshire, as the pedigree from Burke stated.And one of these was Shipbrook:
https://opendomesday.org/name/richard-of-vernon/
Regards.
Richard Ebdon
taf
> There was however a "Richard of Vernon" who in the Domesday book of 1086,
> held Leftwich and other manors in Cheshire, as the pedigree from Burke
> stated.And one of these was Shipbrook:
If, hypothetically, the Burkes claimed this man was at Domesday holding certain lands, and the family descends from him, it is heartening to know that he actually is found in Domesday, but it is hardly probative of the descent.
This may come off as hyper-critical, but there is a long history of concocting such descents, and the writings of 19th century antiquarians are simply not to be trusted, however reasonable or logical those pedigrees appear. We have to rebuild them from the records, or accept that we can't.
taf
richar...@live.co.uk
Peter Stewart
This newsgroup has seen plenty of discussion about the purportedly totemic significance of given names, that are far too often taken as indicating family relationships.
In the 11th century the same can apply to apparent surnames - these are usually toponyms, and may indicate geographic (or feudal) rather than family background.
For example, the other day I was looking into the Montdidier-Ramerupt family around 1100 and came across two charter witnesses in that year listed as "Rainerus de Rameruco; Adam de eodem castro". Clearly these men were knights from Ramerupt, but they were not members of the seigneurial family. They witnessed after a Gausbert de Châtillon, who was equally not a member of the castellan's family in that place though a wishful genealogist might try to make him into one (as Du Chesne did with a Guermond de Châtillon and his brother Henri around this time).
In the case of Vernon, in *The Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families* Lewis Loyd wrote "Vernon was a considerable place, and it does not follow that Richard [de Vernon, of Haddon] was related to its lords, a collateral branch of the earls of Devon and magnates in Normandy".
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
> On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 6:32:15 AM UTC+11, taf wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:01:10 AM UTC-7, richar...@live.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > > There was however a "Richard of Vernon" who in the Domesday book of 1086,
> > > held Leftwich and other manors in Cheshire, as the pedigree from Burke
> > > stated.And one of these was Shipbrook:
> >
> > Again, I advise care. The names that appeared in the Domesday Book have been well-known to antiquarians for centuries. It was par for the course to take a toponymic surname and claim the family in question descended from the person holding that town in Domesday and then fudge the descent to get there. Unfortunately, even when it is not unreasonable that the family did descend from the Domesday holder it is often a challenge to demonstrate such a descent, and it cannot simply be assumed to have been the case.
> >
> > If, hypothetically, the Burkes claimed this man was at Domesday holding certain lands, and the family descends from him, it is heartening to know that he actually is found in Domesday, but it is hardly probative of the descent.
> >
> > This may come off as hyper-critical, but there is a long history of concocting such descents, and the writings of 19th century antiquarians are simply not to be trusted, however reasonable or logical those pedigrees appear. We have to rebuild them from the records, or accept that we can't.
>
> Unfortunately genealogists of the 20th and 21st centuries can be just as credulous as antiquarians of the 19th when it comes to people given the same surname or descriptor.
>
> This newsgroup has seen plenty of discussion about the purportedly totemic significance of given names, that are far too often taken as indicating family relationships.
>
> In the 11th century the same can apply to apparent surnames - these are usually toponyms, and may indicate geographic (or feudal) rather than family background.
>
> For example, the other day I was looking into the Montdidier-Ramerupt family around 1100 and came across two charter witnesses in that year listed as "Rainerus de Rameruco; Adam de eodem castro". Clearly these men were knights from Ramerupt, but they were not members of the seigneurial family. They witnessed after a Gausbert de Châtillon, who was equally not a member of the castellan's family in that place though a wishful genealogist might try to make him into one (as Du Chesne did with a Guermond de Châtillon and his brother Henri around this time).
Peter Stewart
richar...@live.co.uk
However I do stand by my earlier statement in that Richard de Vernon of Shipbrook, was not the Richard who married Adeliza, the daughter of William Peveril, and was a faithful advisor to King Henry the 1st,and also according to this website:
"witnessed more than 20 of Henry's charters & royal writs, in several different places, and sometimes as the only witness. By the time of his death in 1107, de Vernon had risen to become one of the richest and most powerful barons in England. Henry I rewarded him with several large grants of land, these included the honours of Plympton in Devon, Carisbrooke on the Isle of Wight and Christchurch in Hampshire. In addition to these he held estates in Normandy in the Cotentin and he had also acquired the manors of Crowell in Oxfordshire and Woolley in Berkshire on his marriage. Richard died on 8th September 1107 and was buried at his foundation of the Abbey of Montebourg in Normandy.":
http://www.cheshirenow.co.uk/vernon_family.html
The person being written about above gives information that relates to Richard de Redvers (or Reviers), not Richard de Vernon of Shipbrook:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_de_Redvers
Along with wikipedia, the above information is in line with Bearman's book of the de Redvers charters and information about Richard.
This Richard de Redvers may or may not have been the same person who held Mosterton in Dorset as recorded in 1086. He may or may not have been at Hastings in 1066. Bearman's book on Richard states that he married between 1086-1088. I think I read somewhere that he died "prematurely" in 1107.
Thank you.
Richard Ebdon.
Peter Stewart
> On Thursday, 4 April 2019 23:07:00 UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 6:32:15 AM UTC+11, taf wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:01:10 AM UTC-7, richar...@live.co.uk wrote:
> > >
> > > > There was however a "Richard of Vernon" who in the Domesday book of 1086,
> > > > held Leftwich and other manors in Cheshire, as the pedigree from Burke
> > > > stated.And one of these was Shipbrook:
> > >
> > > Again, I advise care. The names that appeared in the Domesday Book have been well-known to antiquarians for centuries. It was par for the course to take a toponymic surname and claim the family in question descended from the person holding that town in Domesday and then fudge the descent to get there. Unfortunately, even when it is not unreasonable that the family did descend from the Domesday holder it is often a challenge to demonstrate such a descent, and it cannot simply be assumed to have been the case.
> > >
> > > If, hypothetically, the Burkes claimed this man was at Domesday holding certain lands, and the family descends from him, it is heartening to know that he actually is found in Domesday, but it is hardly probative of the descent.
> > >
> > > This may come off as hyper-critical, but there is a long history of concocting such descents, and the writings of 19th century antiquarians are simply not to be trusted, however reasonable or logical those pedigrees appear. We have to rebuild them from the records, or accept that we can't.
> >
> > Unfortunately genealogists of the 20th and 21st centuries can be just as credulous as antiquarians of the 19th when it comes to people given the same surname or descriptor.
> >
> > This newsgroup has seen plenty of discussion about the purportedly totemic significance of given names, that are far too often taken as indicating family relationships.
> >
> > In the 11th century the same can apply to apparent surnames - these are usually toponyms, and may indicate geographic (or feudal) rather than family background.
> >
> > For example, the other day I was looking into the Montdidier-Ramerupt family around 1100 and came across two charter witnesses in that year listed as "Rainerus de Rameruco; Adam de eodem castro". Clearly these men were knights from Ramerupt, but they were not members of the seigneurial family. They witnessed after a Gausbert de Châtillon, who was equally not a member of the castellan's family in that place though a wishful genealogist might try to make him into one (as Du Chesne did with a Guermond de Châtillon and his brother Henri around this time).
> >
> > In the case of Vernon, in *The Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families* Lewis Loyd wrote "Vernon was a considerable place, and it does not follow that Richard [de Vernon, of Haddon] was related to its lords, a collateral branch of the earls of Devon and magnates in Normandy".
> >
> > Peter Stewart
>
> Thank you for this,
>
> However I do stand by my earlier statement in that Richard de Vernon of Shipbrook, was not the Richard who married Adeliza, the daughter of William Peveril, and was a faithful advisor to King Henry the 1st
<snip>
> This Richard de Redvers may or may not have been the same person who held Mosterton in Dorset as recorded in 1086. He may or may not have been at Hastings in 1066. Bearman's book on Richard states that he married between 1086-1088. I think I read somewhere that he died "prematurely" in 1107.
If you don't have any evidence for such a connection more plausible than a lineage asserted in an internet genealogy, then I suggest it isn't worth pursuing.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
> Orderic reports that Richard de Redvers died in 1107. He had two namesake grandsons - one was earl of Devon and the other was seigneur of Vernon (exchanged after January 1196 for Néhou).
Peter Stewart
richar...@live.co.uk
> On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 9:11:27 PM UTC+11, richar...@live.co.uk wrote:
> > On Thursday, 4 April 2019 23:07:00 UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 6:32:15 AM UTC+11, taf wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:01:10 AM UTC-7, richar...@live.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > However I do stand by my earlier statement in that Richard de Vernon of Shipbrook, was not the Richard who married Adeliza, the daughter of William Peveril, and was a faithful advisor to King Henry the 1st
>
> I haven't read any post suggesting that these two Richards were the same person, so I must be missing something that has prompted your concern to refute this.
>
> <snip>
>
Thankyou,
Apologies.Regarding the above, in my first comment here, I linked to the Vernon family website which does get information from the two Richards mixed up:
http://www.cheshirenow.co.uk/vernon_family.html
You are correct in that nobody on here has suggested they were the same person. If I had typed my earlier comment again I would have left out the words "However, I do stand by my earlier statement."
The same mistake regarding these Richards seems to have been made on other websites also. And then that mistake gets repeated. Also, some of the descendants of Richard de Redvers have been mistakenly mixed up into the descendants of Richard de Vernon of Shipbrook.
I do agree now that it does not follow that Richard de Vernon, 1st Baron of Shipbrook was descended from William de Vernon of Vernon.
Apparently, Richard de Vernon was among the first barons created by Hugh "Lupus" the Earl of Chester:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FTEUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA218&lpg=PA218&dq=Vernon,+one+of+the+barons+of+Hugh+Lupus&source=bl&ots=8wIMA21erL&sig=ACfU3U09qHvvaUHmYu6Vd4ObY__ZF82GUA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR8ProhrvhAhVOxYUKHdPfDfMQ6AEwCXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Vernon%2C%20one%20of%20the%20barons%20of%20Hugh%20Lupus&f=false
Regards.
Ricahrd Ebdon.
Peter Stewart
> On Friday, 5 April 2019 23:27:56 UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 9:11:27 PM UTC+11, richar...@live.co.uk wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 4 April 2019 23:07:00 UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > > > On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 6:32:15 AM UTC+11, taf wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:01:10 AM UTC-7, richar...@live.co.uk wrote:
> > >
> > > However I do stand by my earlier statement in that Richard de Vernon of Shipbrook, was not the Richard who married Adeliza, the daughter of William Peveril, and was a faithful advisor to King Henry the 1st
> >
> > I haven't read any post suggesting that these two Richards were the same person, so I must be missing something that has prompted your concern to refute this.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Peter Stewart
>
> Thankyou,
>
> Apologies.Regarding the above, in my first comment here, I linked to the Vernon family website which does get information from the two Richards mixed up:
>
> http://www.cheshirenow.co.uk/vernon_family.html
The Vernon family in Normandy has some very puzzling medieval documentation in the 11th-12th centuries with unsatisfactory modern studies which I had never looked into before, and now that I've glimpsed a part of both I'm not especially keen for more. Though I can't see any specific reason to connect the Shipbrook family to this lineage, maybe it shouldn't be ruled out. However, I'm afraid there seems to be nothing (in print at least) to help with a conclusion either way.
Peter Stewart
richar...@live.co.uk
Thank you.
Richard Ebdon.
Peter Stewart
One of these was the family of St Adjutor, the patron saint of swimmers no less, whose brother Mathieu was seigneur of Vernon until ca 1150. Whether or not Mathieu had any issue of his own, his sister Eustachia had at least two sons yet he does not seem to have had a successor within his family. Mathie and Eustachia also had a brother named Richard, but nothing is known of any descent from him.
However, the Redvers lineage also held seigneurial rights in Vernon from the time of (or, in genealogical terms at least, immediately after) Richard de Redvers who died in 1107, the father of Baldwin 1st earl of Devon. Two of this Richard's younger sons, Baldwin's brothers, were surnamed 'de Vernon' and descendants of one of them held the seigneury until it was exchanged in 1196.
The solution to this proposed by some historians is that one family held castellan rights and the other seigneurial rights over what had briefly been a countship of Vernon in the mid-11th century, though this conjecture is hardly convincing. Nonetheless it seems clear that the Redvers lineage cannot have inherited from St Adjutor's family, and there is no record of dispossession or disinheritance to account for a transfer from one family to a cadet branch of the other.
I doubt that this problem can ever be resolved. It does leave open the possibility that a stray Matthew and/or Richard in later 12th-century England called de Vernon could have been related to St Adjutor's family rather than to the Redvers family, or even to both.
Peter Stewart
richar...@live.co.uk
Richard Ebdon.