Genealogics Additions: Additional Edward I Descents for Prince Charles

[Brad Verity]

Leo has Honora Fitzgerald, wife of Sir Edmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne,
and daughter of James Fitzgerald, in his database, here:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00112116&tree=LEO

Through her daughter Ellen Fitzgerald, wife of the 5th Baron
Inchiquin, Honora is an ancestor of Prince Charles (via the Queen
Mother), the Duke of Wellington, and Hon. Anne Hill, the second wife
of the 1st Earl of Moira.

The Fitzgeralds are a very widespread family, and it's easy to get
very confused with them. Luckily, the ODNB has seveal biographies of
family members that are very helpful. Using ODNB, we can trace
Honora's ancestry back to Edward I thru the Earls of Desmond. Honor's
father, James FitzMaurice Fitzgerald of Carrigaline Castle, has a bio
in ODNB. He was killed on 18 August 1579 in a skirmish with the Burkes
of Clanwilliam over stolen horses. Per his bio, James was "the second
son of Maurice fitz John Fitzgerald (d. 1564), called Maurice an
Tóiteán (Maurice of the Burnings), and Julia, second daughter of
Dermot O'Mulryan of Sulloghade, co. Tipperary. He married Katherine,
daughter of William Burke of Clanwilliam, with whom he had two sons,
Maurice and Gerald, who both died in 1588, and a daughter."

Below are Honora's 2 lines of descent from Edward I thru her father
James, with links to the most recent individuals in Leo's database.

Edward I had a dau
A1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl
of Hereford (1276-1322), and had
A2) Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of
Ormond (1305-1338), and had
A3) James Butler, 2nd Earl of Ormond (1331-1382) m. Elizabeth Darcy
(1332-1390), and had
A4) Eleanor Butler (c.1350-1392) m. Gerald Fitzgerald, 3rd Earl of
Desmond (c.1338-1398), and had a son A5 and a dau B5 (see below)
A5) James Fitzgerald, 6th Earl of Desmond (d. by1463) m. Mary de Burgh
(d. 1435), and had
A6) Thomas Fitzgerald, 7th Earl of Desmond (c.1426-1468) m. Ellice
Barry (see B7 below), and had
A7) John Fitzgerald, 12th Earl of Desmond (c.1466-1536) m. More
O'Brien, and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00205214&tree=LEO
A8) Sir Maurice FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Carrigaline Castle (d. 1564) m.
Julia O'Mulryan, and had
A9) James FitzMaurice Fitzgerald of Carrigaline Castle (d. 1579) m.
Katherine Burke, and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00455701&tree=LEO
A10) Honora Fitzgerald m. 2) Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Cloyne
Castle (d. 1612), ancestors of Prince Charles

B5) Ellice Fitzgerald m. John Barry, 10th Lord of Olethan (1367-1420),
and had
B6) William Barry, 11th Lord of Olethan (d. 1480) m. Ellen Roche, and
had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00247748&tree=LEO
B7) Ellice Barry m. 1) Thomas Fitzgerald, 7th Earl of Desmond (see A6
above)

I've had no luck in further identifying William Burke of Clanwilliam,
Honora's maternal grandfather.

Honora's first husband, John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Ballymartyr
Castle, died January 1589, and also has a bio in ODNB, which says he
was "the son of Edmund fitz Maurice Fitzgerald, seneschal of Imokilly,
and Shylie, daughter of Mulroney O'Carroll, lord of Ely O'Carroll. He
married Honora, daughter of James fitz Maurice Fitzgerald, with whom
he had two sons, Edmund, who succeeded to Castlemartyr, and Richard,
and two daughters, Catherine and Eleanor. Honora married, second,
Edmund, eldest son of Sir John fitz Edmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne. The
barony of Imokilly, to the east of Cork city, came into the possession
of the earls of Desmond in the 1420s, and James, the sixth earl,
appointed an illegitimate son of the Fitzgerald knight of Kerry to be
his seneschal in the barony, the position becoming hereditary among
his descendants." The Fitzgeralds of Imokilly and Kerry do not, as far
as I can tell, descend from Edward I, but John does descend from that
monarch through his maternal grandmother, Margery O'Brien, Lady of Ely
O'Carroll.

Honora's second husband Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Cloyne Castle
died in September 1612. He was the eldest son and heir of Sir John
FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne Castle (1528-1612), who also has a bio
in HOP. It says Sir John was in turn "the son of Edmund fitz James
Fitzgerald, and succeeded his father as lay dean of Cloyne following
his father's death in 1567. His mother may have been a daughter of
either a seneschal of Imokilly, a Skiddy of Cork, or a man of
Muskerry. At an unknown date he married Honor O'Brien, niece of the
earl of Thomond, with whom he had three sons, Edmund, Thomas, and
James, and two daughters, Joan and Eleanor." I don't believe that
either Sir John or his wife Honor O'Brien descend from Edward I, but
those wishing to further extend the ancestry of Prince Charles may
wish to look into those lines further.

Cheers, ---Brad

[Bronwen Edwards]

I have quite a bit on the Geraldines, although I have had it so long that I'm not sure of some of the sources. Most of my information came from such places as BP or from Paddy Butler, late Lord Dunboyne.

I suspect that your William Burke of Clanwilliam might be Ulick de Burgh who was also known as MacWilliam Uachter, Lord of Upper Connacht and Clanricarde, d. 1423. His wife was said to be an O'Flaherty. He was son of Sir Richard Oge de Burgh, Lord of Upper Connacht, d. 1387, whose wife was possibly "Ismania". He was son of Sir William de Burgh an Fheobhair, Lord of Upper Connacht, d. 1324, who was married to Celia MacJordan-d'Exeter. He was son of Sir William Liath de Burgh who was executed at Athankip in 1270. He was son of Richard de Burgh and Egidia de Lacy from the main Ulster line.

My chart also shows James "the Usurper", 6th Earl of Desmond, d. 1463, as having married Annabella/Mary Burke of Clanricarde, d. 1435. The personal name means little but I have her father as the above Ulick MacWilliam Uachter.

The Geraldines certainly are a genealogical mess. I hope the above helps somewhat, even though it was so early in my own work that I had not noted the sources properly as I used them (a good 30 years ago). Perhaps this will supply enough clues for more experienced researchers, such as yourself, to find information that will prove useful. Sunny days and good rains, Bronwen

[John Higgins]

As you mention above, ODNB says that Sir John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of
Cloyne married "Honor O'Brien, niece of the earl of Thomond", but it
doesn't say WHICH Earl of Thomond. Based on the chronology
(specifically the birth date of Sir John), it would seem to be
Donough, the 2nd Earl (d. 1533), who had several half-brothers with
descendants. But I don't have any evidence for this - or for any
other placement of Honor O'Brien. Any clues?

The two husbands of Honora Fitzgerald, John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of
Ballymartyr and seneschal of Imokilly and Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald
of Cloyne, appear to have been second cousins once removed. The
Fitzgeralds of Cloyne were a junior line descended from the first
Fitzgerald seneschal of Imokilly. Honora and her 1st husband had a
son who retained Ballymartyr (but not the title of seneschal). The
senior male line from him ended in a daughter who in the 18th century
married Thomas Fitzgerald, Knight of Glin - a VERY distant relative.
All very confusing....

I think Bronwen may be on to something in suggesting that William
Burke of Clanwilliam is somehow associated with the Burgh [or Burke]
Macwilliam family, whose two branches became respectively Earls of
Clanricarde (and later Marquesses of Sligo) and Earls of Mayo. But
chronologically this William cannot be the one that Bronwen mentions
who died in 1423.

[Brad Verity]

On Feb 5, 11:35 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> As you mention above, ODNB says that Sir John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of
> Cloyne married "Honor O'Brien, niece of the earl of Thomond", but it
> doesn't say WHICH Earl of Thomond.  Based on the chronology
> (specifically the birth date of Sir John), it would seem to be
> Donough, the 2nd Earl (d. 1533),

John, I think your date above is a typo? I have the 2nd Earl of
Thomond's death in 1553, not 1533?

> who had several half-brothers with
> descendants.  But I don't have any evidence for this - or for any
> other placement of Honor O'Brien.  Any clues?

I think it's possible that Anthony McCormack, the author of the ODNB
bio of Sir John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne (1528-1612), has
confused two different Sir John Fitzgeralds of Cloyne & their O'Brien
wives. It's certainly understandable - these families are maddeningly
complicated.

From 'Clerical and Parochial Records of Cork, Cloyne', etc. Volume 2
(1864), edited by William Mazier Brady
"1538 and 1555. Edward FitzJames Fitzgerald appears as Dean [of
Cloyne]...Edward, or Edmund, Fitzgerald is stated to have been the son
of James, the son of Richard, the son of the Knight of Kerry. The Dean
had three sons--Edmond Oge, Gerrald Fitzedmund, and Sir John
Fitzedmund Fitzgerald, of Cloyne (the usurper of the Episcopal lands,
&c., in 1615[sic]), who married Katherine, day. of Teigue O'Brien,
brother to Donogh, Earl of Thomond. From Sir John Fitzgerald descended
the family of Fitzgeralds of Cloyne, county Cork."
http://archive.org/stream/clericalandparo04bradgoog#page/n204/mode/2up

Christopher Maginn's ODNB bio of Connor O'Brien, 3rd Earl of Thomond
(c.1535-1581) confirms there was a Tadhg O'Brien, brother to the 2nd
Earl of Thomond: "Donough O'Brien [the 2nd Earl of Thomond]'s
stepbrother Donnell O'Brien, however, gained little from the
compromise and murdered him in April 1553 following the former's
successful bid to have the earldom permanently vested in his male
descendants. Conor O'Brien [the 3rd Earl of Thomond] was thus
challenged by his uncle Donnell O'Brien who was recognized by many
clansmen to have succeeded by the Gaelic custom of tanistry—a
development that the 1543 compromise had aimed to avoid. The more
experienced Donnell O'Brien, supported by his brothers Tadhg and
Donough O'Brien, quickly gained the upper hand among the divided
O'Briens."

The bio goes on to say that Tadhg O'Brien was appointed sheriff of co.
Clare by Sir Edmund Fitton, president of Connaught, until arrested by
his nephew the 3rd Earl in February 1570.

From a pedigree of the Sheehy family drawn up by the Countess of
Blessington in 1843:
"Morgan Sheehy, of Ballyallenane. The said Morgan married Ellen
Butler, daughter of Pierce, Earl of Ormond, and the widow of Connor
O'Brien, Earl of Thomond, and had issue, Morgan Sheehy."

The Countess made a mistake: Ellen Butler was the wife of Donough
O'Brien, the 2nd Earl of Thomond, and was the mother of Conor the 3rd
Earl. Her second marriage to Morgan Sheehy is an addition I believe to
all of the peerage works, which make no mention of it. It's certainly
possible. Ellen was the youngest daughter of her parents. I have her
born about 1517, and died 2 July 1597. The 2nd Earl was killed in
April 1553, so Ellen had plenty of time to marry again and have
another child before her childbearing years were over.

The Countess continues with the Sheehys for 3 more generations until,
"The said Morgan [Sheehy] married Catherine, the eldest of the five
daughters of Teige O'Brien, of Ballycorrig, and of Elizabeth, daughter
of Maurice, Earl of Desmond...Of the five daughters of the above Teige
O'Brien, Catherine married the above Morgan Sheehy, Esq.; Honoria
married Sir John FitzGerald, of Cloyne, Bart.; Maudin married
O'Shaughnessy, of Gort; Julia married Mac Namara, of Cratala; and Mary
married Sir Thurlough Mac Mahon, of Cleana, in the county of Clare,
Bart."
http://archive.org/stream/countessofbless01maddrich#page/10/mode/2up

The baronet status given to Sir John Fitzgerald of Cloyne, Honoria
O'Brien's husband, makes me think this has to have been a later Sir
John Fitzgerald. It's intriguing that Honoria's father in the
Countess' above account is also a Teige O'Brien.

> The two husbands of Honora Fitzgerald, John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of
> Ballymartyr and seneschal of Imokilly and Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald
> of Cloyne, appear to have been second cousins once removed.  The
> Fitzgeralds of Cloyne were a junior line descended from the first
> Fitzgerald seneschal of Imokilly.  Honora and her 1st husband had a
> son who retained Ballymartyr (but not the title of seneschal).  The
> senior male line from him ended in a daughter who in the 18th century
> married Thomas Fitzgerald, Knight of Glin - a VERY distant relative.
> All very confusing....

The following Blennerhassett Pedigree from about 1734 gives a decent
account of Honora Fitzgerald's children with her second husband
(though it makes no mention of her first marriage), Sir Edmund
FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Cloyne (d. 1612). It also discusses Honora's
paternal grandmother Julian O'Ryan, who apparently had a husband (Mac
O'Brien of Arra) previous to Sir Maurice Fitzgerald of Carrigaline
Castle (d. 1564). You'll want to read pages 102-106:
http://archive.org/stream/selectionsfromol00hick#page/n217/mode/2up

Turns out Leo has another daughter of Sir Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald
of Cloyne & Honora Fitzgerald - Honora Fitzgerald, wife of Patrick
Fitzmaurice, 17th Baron of Kerry (1595-1661) - in his database, here:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00060482&tree=LEO

> I think Bronwen may be on to something in suggesting that William
> Burke of Clanwilliam is somehow associated with the Burgh [or Burke]
> Macwilliam family, whose two branches became respectively Earls of
> Clanricarde (and later Marquesses of Sligo) and Earls of Mayo.  But
> chronologically this William cannot be the one that Bronwen mentions
> who died in 1423.

Agreed, and thank you, Bronwen, for the suggestion. I have no idea
how to start searching through the Burghs, though, to try & place her.

At any rate, hope these are enough clues to help firm up these lines.

Cheers, -----Brad

[John Higgins]

Comments inserted below - this is getting pretty complicated....

On Feb 5, 4:17 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 11:35 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > As you mention above, ODNB says that Sir John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of
> > Cloyne married "Honor O'Brien, niece of the earl of Thomond", but it
> > doesn't say WHICH Earl of Thomond.  Based on the chronology
> > (specifically the birth date of Sir John), it would seem to be
> > Donough, the 2nd Earl (d. 1533),
>
> John, I think your date above is a typo? I have the 2nd Earl of
> Thomond's death in 1553, not 1533?

Yes, it's a typo - s/b 1553 not 1533. And the numbering of the Earls
of Thomond is complicated by the fact that CP and BP use different
numberings. Donough (d. 1553) was the 2nd Earl of the 1543 creation
(but only for his life), but he surrendered that title and received a
new creation of the title in 1551/2 (without the life restriction).
BP numbers the earls starting with the 1551/2 creation, while CP
starts with the 1543 creation. I'll stick with the CP numbering.

>
> > who had several half-brothers with
> > descendants.  But I don't have any evidence for this - or for any
> > other placement of Honor O'Brien.  Any clues?
>
> I think it's possible that Anthony McCormack, the author of the ODNB
> bio of Sir John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne (1528-1612), has
> confused two different Sir John Fitzgeralds of Cloyne & their O'Brien
> wives.  It's certainly understandable - these families are maddeningly
> complicated.
>
> From 'Clerical and Parochial Records of Cork, Cloyne', etc. Volume 2
> (1864), edited by William Mazier Brady
> "1538 and 1555. Edward FitzJames Fitzgerald appears as Dean [of
> Cloyne]...Edward, or Edmund, Fitzgerald is stated to have been the son
> of James, the son of Richard, the son of the Knight of Kerry. The Dean
> had three sons--Edmond Oge, Gerrald Fitzedmund, and Sir John
> Fitzedmund Fitzgerald, of Cloyne (the usurper of the Episcopal lands,
> &c., in 1615[sic]), who married Katherine, day. of Teigue O'Brien,
> brother to Donogh, Earl of Thomond. From Sir John Fitzgerald descended
> the family of Fitzgeralds of Cloyne, county Cork."http://archive.org/stream/clericalandparo04bradgoog#page/n204/mode/2up

My information on the Fitzgeralds of both Imokilly and Cloyne is based
on Pádraig O'Loingsigh, The Book of Cloyne (Leabhar Chluain Uamha)
[editions published in 1977 and 1994] - not available online. It has
a pretty thorough narrative of the male lines of both families, but is
pretty sparse with details regarding their wives. This is one of the
sources cited by the author of the ODNB article of John FitEdmund
Fitzgerald (d. 1612).

It seems that, yes, there were two John FitzEdmund FitzGeralds of
Cloyne in this time period. And there was another Sir John FitzEdmund
Fitzgerald who is sometimes mistakenly assigned to this family - more
on him later.

The mother of the first John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald (d. 1612) was, per
"The Book of Cloyne", a daughter of one of the Fitzgeralds, seneschals
of Imokilly, but doesn't specify which one (this was one of the
alternatives for his maternity mentioned in ODNB - the Book of Cloyne
says his father Edmund had three wives.) This Sir John's heir was his
grandson Sir John Og FitzEdmund Fitzgerald (son of his son Edmund, who
died either shortly before or shrotly after his father deopending on
the source, and his wife Honora Fitzgerald, daughter of james
FitzMaurice Fitzgerald and Catherine Burke of Clanwilliam).

Chronologically I think it's much more likely that the elder Sir John
FitzEdmund Fitzgerald married a niece of the 2nd Earl of Thomond,
presumably named Honora at least by ODNB. Perhaps the younger Sir
John Og also married an O'Brien (perhaps named Catherine?), but she
must belong elsewhere in the complicated O'Brien genealogy.

>
> Christopher Maginn's ODNB bio of Connor O'Brien, 3rd Earl of Thomond
> (c.1535-1581) confirms there was a Tadhg O'Brien, brother to the 2nd
> Earl of Thomond: "Donough O'Brien [the 2nd Earl of Thomond]'s
> stepbrother Donnell O'Brien, however, gained little from the
> compromise and murdered him in April 1553 following the former's
> successful bid to have the earldom permanently vested in his male
> descendants. Conor O'Brien [the 3rd Earl of Thomond] was thus
> challenged by his uncle Donnell O'Brien who was recognized by many
> clansmen to have succeeded by the Gaelic custom of tanistry—a
> development that the 1543 compromise had aimed to avoid. The more
> experienced Donnell O'Brien, supported by his brothers Tadhg and
> Donough O'Brien, quickly gained the upper hand among the divided
> O'Briens."
>
> The bio goes on to say that Tadhg O'Brien was appointed sheriff of co.
> Clare by Sir Edmund Fitton, president of Connaught, until arrested by
> his nephew the 3rd Earl in February 1570.

Teig [= Tadhg] O'Brien is shown in BP sub Inchiquin as a brother of
Donal [or Donnell] O'Brien and half-brother of Donough, 2nd Earl of
Thomond. He is said to be of Ballycorick [= Ballycorrig], Co. Cork,
and d. 1582, ancestor of that branch of the O'Briens which survived
until 1853 in Ballycorick (no deatils given).

>
> From a pedigree of the Sheehy family drawn up by the Countess of
> Blessington in 1843:
> "Morgan Sheehy, of Ballyallenane. The said Morgan married Ellen
> Butler, daughter of Pierce, Earl of Ormond, and the widow of Connor
> O'Brien, Earl of Thomond, and had issue, Morgan Sheehy."
>
> The Countess made a mistake: Ellen Butler was the wife of Donough
> O'Brien, the 2nd Earl of Thomond, and was the mother of Conor the 3rd
> Earl. Her second marriage to Morgan Sheehy is an addition I believe to
> all of the peerage works, which make no mention of it.  It's certainly
> possible.  Ellen was the youngest daughter of her parents.  I have her
> born about 1517, and died 2 July 1597.  The 2nd Earl was killed in
> April 1553, so Ellen had plenty of time to marry again and have
> another child before her childbearing years were over.

I'm somewhat skeptical about this connection, because as you note it's
not emntioned in any of the peerages. And also the chronology implied
in the genealogy below seems to be awkward, to put it mildly. A great-
grandson of the Sheehy-Butler marriage is said to marry a daughter of
Teige O'Brien of Ballcorrig. Not very likely. It's possible that
it's the daughter of a later Teige O'Brien of Ballycorrig who married
a later Morgan Sheehy, but that doesn't work chronologically for the
Honora O'Brien who married Fitzgerald of Cloyne.

>
> The Countess continues with the Sheehys for 3 more generations until,
> "The said Morgan [Sheehy] married Catherine, the eldest of the five
> daughters of Teige O'Brien, of Ballycorrig, and of Elizabeth, daughter
> of Maurice, Earl of Desmond...Of the five daughters of the above Teige
> O'Brien, Catherine married the above Morgan Sheehy, Esq.; Honoria
> married Sir John FitzGerald, of Cloyne, Bart.; Maudin married
> O'Shaughnessy, of Gort; Julia married Mac Namara, of Cratala; and Mary
> married Sir Thurlough Mac Mahon, of Cleana, in the county of Clare,
> Bart."http://archive.org/stream/countessofbless01maddrich#page/10/mode/2up
>
> The baronet status given to Sir John Fitzgerald of Cloyne, Honoria
> O'Brien's husband, makes me think this has to have been a later Sir
> John Fitzgerald.  It's intriguing that Honoria's father in the
> Countess' above account is also a Teige O'Brien.

I think the Countess was confused here. I don't see any Fitzgerald of
Cloyne who was a baronet. But there was a John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald
of a different family in Co. Clare who was a baronet - see Complete
Baronetage, 2:266. Note "d' in CB here explains that this Sir John's
father was confused with the Edmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne who married
Honoria Fitzgerald.

>
> > The two husbands of Honora Fitzgerald, John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of
> > Ballymartyr and seneschal of Imokilly and Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald
> > of Cloyne, appear to have been second cousins once removed.  The
> > Fitzgeralds of Cloyne were a junior line descended from the first
> > Fitzgerald seneschal of Imokilly.  Honora and her 1st husband had a
> > son who retained Ballymartyr (but not the title of seneschal).  The
> > senior male line from him ended in a daughter who in the 18th century
> > married Thomas Fitzgerald, Knight of Glin - a VERY distant relative.
> > All very confusing....
>
> The following Blennerhassett Pedigree from about 1734 gives a decent
> account of Honora Fitzgerald's children with her second husband
> (though it makes no mention of her first marriage), Sir Edmund
> FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Cloyne (d. 1612). It also discusses Honora's
> paternal grandmother Julian O'Ryan, who apparently had a husband (Mac
> O'Brien of Arra) previous to Sir Maurice Fitzgerald of Carrigaline
> Castle (d. 1564). You'll want to read pages 102-106:http://archive.org/stream/selectionsfromol00hick#page/n217/mode/2up
>
> Turns out Leo has another daughter of Sir Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald
> of Cloyne & Honora Fitzgerald - Honora Fitzgerald, wife of Patrick
> Fitzmaurice, 17th Baron of Kerry (1595-1661) - in his database, here:http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00060482&tree=LEO

There apparently was also another daughter Mary who married Owen
O'Sullivan More and left descendants. And "The Book of Cloyne" says
there two sons John and Maurice who apparently also left descendants.

[Brad Verity]

On Feb 5, 9:27 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Comments inserted below - this is getting pretty complicated....

To say the least. I can understand why Gerald Paget didn't bother to
pursue these lines further back.

> My information on the Fitzgeralds of both Imokilly and Cloyne is based
> on Pádraig O'Loingsigh, The Book of Cloyne (Leabhar Chluain Uamha)
> [editions published in 1977 and 1994] - not available online.  It has
> a pretty thorough narrative of the male lines of both families, but is
> pretty sparse with details regarding their wives.  This is one of the
> sources cited by the author of the ODNB article of John FitEdmund
> Fitzgerald (d. 1612).

It sounds like a very useful source. Does it say that the mother of
our Sir Edmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne (d. 1612) was named Honora
O'Brien?

> It seems that, yes, there were two John FitzEdmund FitzGeralds of
> Cloyne in this time period.  And there was another Sir John FitzEdmund
> Fitzgerald who is sometimes mistakenly assigned to this family - more
> on him later.

Yikes.

> The mother of the first John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald (d. 1612) was, per
> "The Book of Cloyne", a daughter of one of the Fitzgeralds, seneschals
> of Imokilly, but doesn't specify which one (this was one of the
> alternatives for his maternity mentioned in ODNB - the Book of Cloyne
> says his father Edmund had three wives.)  This Sir John's heir was his
> grandson Sir John Og FitzEdmund Fitzgerald (son of his son Edmund, who
> died either shortly before or shrotly after his father deopending on
> the source, and his wife Honora Fitzgerald, daughter of james
> FitzMaurice Fitzgerald and Catherine Burke of Clanwilliam).

You know, I remember coming across some days back the will of this Sir
John Og FitzEdmund Fitzgerald, grandson of the one who died in 1612.
Unfortunately I didn't mark it at the time as it was mid-17th century,
but I can try & re-find it if you think it would be useful.

> Chronologically I think it's much more likely that the elder Sir John
> FitzEdmund Fitzgerald married a niece of the 2nd Earl of Thomond,
> presumably named Honora at least by ODNB.  Perhaps the younger Sir
> John Og also married an O'Brien (perhaps named Catherine?), but she
> must belong elsewhere in the complicated O'Brien genealogy.

It gets even more complicated: there were two Teige O'Briens in the
16th century. The one who became sheriff of the county & opposed his
nephew Conor the 3rd Earl of Thomond was Teige O'Brien of Smithstown
Castle (d. 1577):
"Murrough O'Brien, called the Tanist, who was created 1st Earl of
Thomond and 1st Baron of Inchiquin in 1543 willed the castle of
Smithstown, with the castles of Ballyvaughan and Bohneill (being lands
once belonging to the suppressed religious house of Kilshanny) to his
son Teige before his death in 1551 (J.R.S.A.I. 1901 p350). In 1559
Teige of Smithstown was one of the main opponents of the Earl of
Thomond, Conor O'Brien, 3rd Earl, since the Earldom had passed from
his own family to that of his cousins,with the aid of the Lord Deputy
and the English Crown...Teige was sheriff of Co. Clare in 1570 and he
prepared provisions in the monastery of Ennis for the president of
Connought who proposedholding assizes there...The year 1573 saw Teige,
(son of Conor, who died in 1539), founder of the Ballycorrick
O'Briens, in conflict with Teige of Smithstown. The army of Teige of
Ballycorrick "marched with standards flying past Teige son of
Murrough's castle of Ballinagown (Smithstown) and found the opposing
army on Bealanchip Hill" (J.R.S.A.I. 1890 p68). In the ensuing battle
Teige of Ballycorrick was completely beaten and Teige of Smithstown
seems to have spent the remaining four years of his life in peace at
Smithstown castle (Ibid
p69). He is recorded as the owner of Smithstown in 1574 on the list of
castles of the county for that year (J.N.M.A.S. Vol. 4 (1909-11) p81).
Teige died at Inchiquin Castle in 1577 leaving his son Turlough then
aged seven as his heir (J.R.S.A.I. 1890, p69). An inquisition relating
to his death further tells us that he was owner of the water mill
adjoining his castle of Smithstown and that his widow was More O'Brien
(James Frost, The History and Topography of the County of Clare
(Dublin1878), p268)...Teige's son Turlough died in 1584 at Smithstown,
being the owner at the time of his death of the castle of Smithstown
the castles of Bohneill and Ballyvaughan, and also the monastery of
Kilshanny, which was an offshoot of the Cistercian house of Corcomroe
(Ibid p109). The co-heiress of his estate were his three sisters,
Honoria, aged fifteen and married, Slaney, aged ten, and Aney, aged
seven (Ibid p289), all of whom were under the guardianship of their
mother More O'Brien (Ibid p270). Honoria was married to Richard
Wingfield, an English adventurer who had obtained land in Co. Limerick
(Ivar O'Brien, O'Brien of Thomond (Chichester, 1986), p190). Slaney
married Teige O'Brien, (son of Conor, 3rd Earl) in 1597, and they
later became the O'Briens of Dromore (Ibid p181)."
http://www.academia.edu/2345246/Some_Restored_Towerhouses_in_the_Burren_area

> Teig [= Tadhg] O'Brien is shown in BP sub Inchiquin as a brother of
> Donal [or Donnell] O'Brien and half-brother of Donough, 2nd Earl of
> Thomond.  He is said to be of Ballycorick [= Ballycorrig], Co. Cork,
> and d. 1582, ancestor of that branch of the O'Briens which survived
> until 1853 in Ballycorick (no deatils given).

Would this now be an error in BP, with their Teig O'Brien the half-
brother of the 2nd Earl actually being the Teige O'Brien (d. 1577) of
Smithstown Castle, not the Teig O'Brien (d. 1582) of Ballycorick
Castle? At any rate, though Teige O'Brien of Smithstown Castle did
have a daughter Honora, he obviously wasn't the father-in-law of our
Sir James FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne (d. 1612).

Which still leaves Teige O'Brien of Ballycorick Castle as a father-in-
law candidate. The O'Brien Genealogies, "Written in Irish in 1762 A.D.
Based on an earlier book by Hugh boy Mac Curtin in 1608 A.D.
Translated from Irish Ms. by Standish O’Grady" may help to place him,
though I find it very confusing:
"XV. Genealogy of the race of Ballycorick:-
Christopher (mar. Mary Mac Conmara of the Ranna) is s. of Murrough
(mar. Mary Fitzgerald of Castlelishin) m. Turlough More (mar. More
dau. of Mahon Mac Mahon of Tuah) m. Teigue More (mar. sir Turlough’s
dau. More) m. Murrough (mar. brian O’Brien’s dau. More) m. Turlough
(mar. O’Conor-Kerry’s dau.) m. Teigue-of-Ballycorick (whose mo. was
the of Desmond’s dau.) m. Maurice an charbaid m. Conor m. Turlough
donn m. Teigue-of-Coad m. Turlough boy [and so on as before].
Note that the following were elder bros. to this Teigue-of-Ballycorick
(i) Donough, eldest of all, that was earl of Thomond (ii) Donall More,
that was elder of Ennistymon (iii) Murrough, that sat in Cahernamona
(iv) here came Teigue himself, and (v) Murtough of Drumline.
Note again that to the first-named Murrough above, Christopher’s fa.
to wit, Donall that sat in Cloonnakila was bro. Three sons of his
now, A.D. 1761, are in being: Murtough, Donall, Turlough; which
sons’ mo. was Murtough cam’s dau., Mary of Clooninach. Henry, yet
another bro. to said Murrough, was married to a dau. of Geoffrey
O’Connell from Iveragh."
http://obrienclan.com/the-obrien-genealogies

> I'm somewhat skeptical about this connection, because as you note it's
> not emntioned in any of the peerages.

I've put a note in my database under Ellen Butler that her possible
second marriage to Morgan Sheehy needs further research.

> And also the chronology implied
> in the genealogy below seems to be awkward, to put it mildly.  A great-
> grandson of the Sheehy-Butler marriage is said to marry a daughter of
> Teige O'Brien of Ballcorrig.  Not very likely.  It's possible that
> it's the daughter of a later Teige O'Brien of Ballycorrig who married
> a later Morgan Sheehy, but that doesn't work chronologically for the
> Honora O'Brien who married Fitzgerald of Cloyne.

The Countess says Teige O'Brien of Ballycorick's wife was Elizabeth,
daughter of Maurice, Earl of Desmond. Clearly more confusion on her
part, as I have Ellice Fitzgerald, daughter of Maurice, 9th Earl of
Desmond (c.1460-1520), as the wife of Conor O'Brien, Lord of Thomond
(d. 1539). But the Countess is not too far from the mark, as, if I'm
understanding any of this (and that's a big 'if'), it was this Conor
O'Brien & Ellice Fitzgerald who were the parents of Teige O'Brien of
Ballycorick Castle (d. 1582). And if it was indeed Teige O'Brien of
Ballycorick who was the maternal grandfather of our Sir Edmund
FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Cloyne Castle (d. 1612), then this would be
further Edward I descents for Prince Charles, et al.

> > The Countess continues with the Sheehys for 3 more generations until,
> > "The said Morgan [Sheehy] married Catherine, the eldest of the five
> > daughters of Teige O'Brien, of Ballycorrig, and of Elizabeth, daughter
> > of Maurice, Earl of Desmond...Of the five daughters of the above Teige
> > O'Brien, Catherine married the above Morgan Sheehy, Esq.; Honoria
> > married Sir John FitzGerald, of Cloyne, Bart.; Maudin married
> > O'Shaughnessy, of Gort; Julia married Mac Namara, of Cratala; and Mary
> > married Sir Thurlough Mac Mahon, of Cleana, in the county of Clare,
> > Bart."http://archive.org/stream/countessofbless01maddrich#page/10/mode/2up

> I think the Countess was confused here.  I don't see any Fitzgerald of
> Cloyne who was a baronet.  But there was a John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald
> of a different family in Co. Clare who was a baronet - see Complete
> Baronetage, 2:266.  Note "d' in CB here explains that this Sir John's
> father was confused with the Edmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne who married
> Honoria Fitzgerald.

If we could get dates for any of the five daughters of Teige O'Brien
of Ballycorick, and/or their husbands, mentioned by the Countess, it
would help determine if she is relaying the Honora O'Brien/John
Fitzgerald of Cloyne marriage we are looking for.

I'll see if Burke's Irish Families is any help next time I'm at the
downtown Vancouver library.

Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad

[John Higgins]

See comments below...

On Feb 6, 9:45 am, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 9:27 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > My information on the Fitzgeralds of both Imokilly and Cloyne is based
> > on Pádraig O'Loingsigh, The Book of Cloyne (Leabhar Chluain Uamha)
> > [editions published in 1977 and 1994] - not available online.  It has
> > a pretty thorough narrative of the male lines of both families, but is
> > pretty sparse with details regarding their wives.  This is one of the
> > sources cited by the author of the ODNB article of John FitEdmund
> > Fitzgerald (d. 1612).
>
> It sounds like a very useful source.  Does it say that the mother of
> our Sir Edmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne (d. 1612) was named Honora
> O'Brien?

No, the mother of Sir Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Cloyne (d. 1612)
is not mentioned. In fact Sir Edmund himself is only mentioned by
implication. His father Sir John the elder (d. 1612) is noted to have
been succeeded by his grandson Sir John Og FitzEdmund, and the mother
of the latter, Honora, is noted as previously the wife of the last
Fitzgerald seneschal of Imokilly - i.e., the daughter of James
FitzMaurice Fitzgerald and Catherine Burke of Clanwilliam.

In my previous post, I should have noted that "The Book of Cloyne"
adds one more generation to the descent of the Fitzgeralds of Cloyne
than was mentioned by the source you cited earlier in the thread.

That source had said:
"1538 and 1555. Edward FitzJames Fitzgerald appears as Dean [of
Cloyne]...Edward, or Edmund, Fitzgerald is stated to have been the son
of James, the son of Richard, the son of the Knight of Kerry. The Dean
had three sons--Edmond Oge, Gerrald Fitzedmund, and Sir John
Fitzedmund Fitzgerald, of Cloyne (the usurper of the Episcopal lands,
&c., in 1615[sic]), who married Katherine, day. of Teigue O'Brien,
brother to Donogh, Earl of Thomond. From Sir John Fitzgerald descended
the family of Fitzgeralds of Cloyne, county Cork."

The Book of Cloyne shows the descent as follows:
Maurice FitzRichard Fitzgerald, Knight of Kerry
Richard FitzMaurice Fitzgerald, seneschal of Imokilly [bastard son]
William FitzRichard Fitzgerald of Castlerichard [the added
generation]
James FitzWilliam Fitzgerald of Cloyne
Edmund FitzJames Fitzgerald of Cloyne (d. 1567)
Sir John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne (d. 1612)
Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Cloyne (d. 1612)
Sir John Og FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne (d. 1641)

>
> You know, I remember coming across some days back the will of this Sir
> John Og FitzEdmund Fitzgerald, grandson of the one who died in 1612.
> Unfortunately I didn't mark it at the time as it was mid-17th century,
> but I can try & re-find it if you think it would be useful.

The will might be useful if it gave some clues as to the wife of Sir
John Og - given the confusion of two or three men of the same name.

> later became the O'Briens of Dromore (Ibid p181)."http://www.academia.edu/2345246/Some_Restored_Towerhouses_in_the_Burr...

>
> > Teig [= Tadhg] O'Brien is shown in BP sub Inchiquin as a brother of
> > Donal [or Donnell] O'Brien and half-brother of Donough, 2nd Earl of
> > Thomond.  He is said to be of Ballycorick [= Ballycorrig], Co. Cork,
> > and d. 1582, ancestor of that branch of the O'Briens which survived
> > until 1853 in Ballycorick (no deatils given).
>
> Would this now be an error in BP, with their Teig O'Brien the half-
> brother of the 2nd Earl actually being the Teige O'Brien (d. 1577) of
> Smithstown Castle, not the Teig O'Brien (d. 1582) of Ballycorick
> Castle?  At any rate, though Teige O'Brien of Smithstown Castle did
> have a daughter Honora, he obviously wasn't the father-in-law of our
> Sir James FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne (d. 1612).
>

No, BP shows both Teige O'Brien of Smithstown (d. 1577) and Teige
O'Brien of Ballycorrig (d. 1582) as distinct individuals - and in
their proper places in the pedigree, in agreement with what is
described above.

> Which still leaves Teige O'Brien of Ballycorick Castle as a father-in-
> law candidate. The O'Brien Genealogies, "Written in Irish in 1762 A.D.
> Based on an earlier book by Hugh boy Mac Curtin in 1608 A.D.
> Translated from Irish Ms. by Standish O’Grady" may help to place him,
> though I find it very confusing:
> "XV. Genealogy of the race of Ballycorick:-
> Christopher (mar. Mary Mac Conmara of the Ranna) is s. of Murrough
> (mar. Mary Fitzgerald of Castlelishin) m. Turlough More (mar. More
> dau. of Mahon Mac Mahon of Tuah) m. Teigue More (mar. sir Turlough’s
> dau. More) m. Murrough (mar. brian O’Brien’s dau. More) m. Turlough
> (mar. O’Conor-Kerry’s dau.) m. Teigue-of-Ballycorick (whose mo. was
> the of Desmond’s dau.) m. Maurice an charbaid m. Conor m. Turlough
> donn m. Teigue-of-Coad m. Turlough boy [and so on as before].
> Note that the following were elder bros. to this Teigue-of-Ballycorick
> (i) Donough, eldest of all, that was earl of Thomond (ii) Donall More,
> that was elder of Ennistymon (iii) Murrough, that sat in Cahernamona
> (iv) here came Teigue himself, and (v) Murtough of Drumline.
> Note again that to the first-named Murrough above, Christopher’s fa.
> to wit, Donall that sat in Cloonnakila was bro.  Three sons of his
> now, A.D. 1761, are in being:  Murtough, Donall, Turlough;  which
> sons’ mo. was Murtough cam’s dau., Mary of Clooninach.  Henry, yet
> another bro. to said Murrough, was married to a dau. of Geoffrey
> O’Connell from Iveragh."http://obrienclan.com/the-obrien-genealogies

I too am confused by this genealogy - I need to study it in more
detail.

If you're referring to Burke's Irish Family Records (1976), it doesn't
deal with this particular Sheehy family - or with the Fitzgeralds of
either Imokilly or Coyne. And it has nothing at all on the
complicated O'Biren family. Sigh.... (I have a copy of BIFR on a CD-
ROM)

>
> Thanks & Cheers,                        -----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Feb 7, 9:36 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The will might be useful if it gave some clues as to the wife of Sir
> John Og - given the confusion of two or three men of the same name.

I can't find the transcript of the will that I had seen some days
back. I can only find sources which say the will was dated 1
September 1640. But I did come across a transcript of the funeral
entry for Sir John Og Fitzgerald of Cloyne: "Sir John Fitzgerald, late
of Ballymalloe, co. Cork, Knt., eldest s. & h. of Sir Edward F.G.,
Knt., eldest s. & h. of Sir John F.G., of Cloyne, Knt. Sir John mar.
Ellen, 3rd dr. of David, Lord Barry, Vis. Buttevant, issue 5 s. & 2
drs, viz--Edmond, eldest s. & h., James, Thomas, Garrett, John, all
unmd. Honora, eldest dr., and Ellen, unmd. Sir John dep. at
Ballymalloe, 2nd Jan., 1640, and was bur. in the Cathedral of Cloyne,
in the monument of his ancestors. Subscribed by Thomas Skiddy, gent.,
agent for said Edmond, ret. 9 Aug., 1641":
http://archive.org/stream/annalscathedral01caulgoog#page/n62/mode/2up

The date of Sir John's death is actually 2 January 1640/1. At least we
know now that his wife was Ellen Barry, not another Honora O'Brien, so
he can't be the one that the Countess is referring to in her Sheehy
pedigree.

> No, BP shows both Teige O'Brien of Smithstown (d. 1577) and Teige
> O'Brien of Ballycorrig (d. 1582) as distinct individuals - and in
> their proper places in the pedigree, in agreement with what is
> described above.

I'm so confused with these Teige O'Briens!! Who were the parents of
Teige O'Brien of Ballycorrig Castle (d. 1582)?

> If you're referring to Burke's Irish Family Records (1976), it doesn't
> deal with this particular Sheehy family - or with the Fitzgeralds of
> either Imokilly or Coyne.  And it has nothing at all on the
> complicated O'Biren family.  Sigh....  (I have a copy of BIFR on a CD-
> ROM)

How frustrating! The Countess gives Teige O'Brien of Ballycorrig five
daughters:
1) Catherine married Morgan Sheehy, Esq.
2) Honoria married Sir John FitzGerald, of Cloyne, Bart.
3) Maudin married O'Shaughnessy, of Gort
4) Julia married Mac Namara, of Cratala
5) Mary married Sir Thurlough Mac Mahon, of Cleana, in the county of
Clare, Bart.

If we can get dates for any of these daughters and their husbands -
and those dates turn out to be late 16th/early 17th century - then
we'll know that Teige O'Brien of Ballycorrig (d. 1582) is the guy
we're looking for, the father-in-law of our Sir James Fitzgerald of
Cloyne (d. 1612), despite the Countess being very chronologically
confused in her own Sheehy pedigree.

It's a shame that Burke's Irish Family Records doesn't deal with the
Sheehys or Fitzgeralds of Cloyne (Numbers 1 & 2 above), but if it
deals with any of the families of the other three daughters above, we
may be able to determine if this is indeed the Teige O'Brien of
Ballycorrig family group we want, or if the Countess was correct and
these Ballycorrig O'Brien sisters belong much later on in the late
17th century.

Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad

[Derek Howard]

On Friday, February 8, 2013 9:29:32 PM UTC+1, Brad Verity wrote:
> I'm so confused with these Teige O'Briens!! Who were the parents of
> Teige O'Brien of Ballycorrig Castle (d. 1582)?

The Irish annals outline part of the Ballycorick O'Brien family.

For instance, the death is recorded in 1589 of Turlough, the son of Teige, son of Conor, son of Turlough, son of Teige O’Brien of Bel-atha-anchomraic.
(Fn i : “Bel-atha-an-chomraic … now Ballycorick a townland situated on the confines of the baronies of Clonderslaw and Islands, in the county of Clare … There is a family of the O’Briens still living in this place who inherit a small estate”).
Annals of the Kingdom of Ireland by the Four Masters,ed O’Donovan, 2nd edition, 1856, vol 6, p 1879 http://archive.org/stream/annalsofkingdomo06ocleuoft#page/1878/

The insurrection and hanging at Cork in the November [Michaelmas] Term 1596, of Conor son of Teige, son of Conor O’Brien of Bel-atha-an-chomraic is recorded in
Annals of the Kingdom of Ireland by the Four Masters,ed O’Donovan, 2nd edition, 1856, vol 6, pp 2004-5, and n v.
http://archive.org/stream/annalsofkingdomo06ocleuoft#page/2004/

To return to the Teige who died 1582 - his death is recorded as that of "Teige, the son of Conor, son of Turlough, son of Teige, son of Brian Chathaan Aenaigh O’Brien, also died in the month of August, in the same week with the Earl [of Clanrickard]. The deceased was a hero in prowess, and a soldier in valour. He had been for some time Tanist of Thomaond, [and continued such] until he was expelled, together with his brother , by Donnell. He afterwards went to Spain, and to France, and thence to England, where he obtained his pardon, and his entire share of the territory, except the tanistry alone. He died at a good old age, and was interred in the monastery of Ennis".
Annals of the Kingdom of Ireland by the Four Masters,ed O’Donovan, 2nd edition, 1856, vol 5, pp 1772-5.
http://archive.org/stream/annalsofkingdomo05ocleuoft#page/1772/

The next entry relates to Donough, the son of Murrough, son of Turlough, son of Teige, son of Turlough, who was the son of Brian Chata-an-Aenaigh O’Brien who was put to death in an ignoble manner, that is he was hanged in Thomond, […] in the gateway of Limerick on Friday 29 September 1582 and his body was interred at Ennis in his native territory.

Many Irish families have to be pieced together from these series of overlapping recitations of their genealogies corroborating with the occasional specification of location.

Derek Howard

[Derek Howard]

On Saturday, February 9, 2013 12:34:35 AM UTC+1, Derek Howard wrote:
> On Friday, February 8, 2013 9:29:32 PM UTC+1, Brad Verity wrote:
> > I'm so confused with these Teige O'Briens!! Who were the parents of
> > Teige O'Brien of Ballycorrig Castle (d. 1582)?
>
> The Irish annals outline part of the Ballycorick O'Brien family.

<snip>
For a little more discussion of the family and its activities at the time see
G U Macnamara: “Inchiquin, County Clare”, part II, in The Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland, vol 31, 1901-1902, pp 341-364 at p 345.
http://archive.org/stream/journalofroyalso31royauoft#page/340/

Derek Howard

[John Higgins]

On Feb 8, 12:29 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 9:36 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The will might be useful if it gave some clues as to the wife of Sir
> > John Og - given the confusion of two or three men of the same name.
>
> I can't find the transcript of the will that I had seen some days
> back.  I can only find sources which say the will was dated 1
> September 1640.  But I did come across a transcript of the funeral
> entry for Sir John Og Fitzgerald of Cloyne: "Sir John Fitzgerald, late
> of Ballymalloe, co. Cork, Knt., eldest s. & h. of Sir Edward F.G.,
> Knt., eldest s. & h. of Sir John F.G., of Cloyne, Knt. Sir John mar.
> Ellen, 3rd dr. of David, Lord Barry, Vis. Buttevant, issue 5 s. & 2
> drs, viz--Edmond, eldest s. & h., James, Thomas, Garrett, John, all
> unmd. Honora, eldest dr., and Ellen, unmd. Sir John dep. at
> Ballymalloe, 2nd Jan., 1640, and was bur. in the Cathedral of Cloyne,
> in the monument of his ancestors. Subscribed by Thomas Skiddy, gent.,
> agent for said Edmond, ret. 9 Aug., 1641":http://archive.org/stream/annalscathedral01caulgoog#page/n62/mode/2up
>
> The date of Sir John's death is actually 2 January 1640/1. At least we
> know now that his wife was Ellen Barry, not another Honora O'Brien, so
> he can't be the one that the Countess is referring to in her Sheehy
> pedigree.
>

Well, the link to the Barrys of Buttevant is certainly useful and will
add some interesting ancestry.

> > No, BP shows both Teige O'Brien of Smithstown (d. 1577) and Teige
> > O'Brien of Ballycorrig (d. 1582) as distinct individuals - and in
> > their proper places in the pedigree, in agreement with what is
> > described above.
>
> I'm so confused with these Teige O'Briens!!  Who were the parents of
> Teige O'Brien of Ballycorrig Castle (d. 1582)?

Teig O'Brien of Ballycorrig (d. 1582) was the son of Conor O'Brien,
the last King [or Prince] of Thomond, here:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00117042&tree=LEO

But Teig was a son by Conor's 2nd wife Ellice (not shown in
Genealogics but listed in BP and the older peerages). Ellice was the
daughter of Maurice FitzThomas Fitzgerald, 9th Earl of Desmond and his
(only) wife. The 9th Earl (sometimes called 10th in BP) is here:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00177826&tree=LEO

So, yes, more Fitzgeralds to add to the confusion!!

>
> > If you're referring to Burke's Irish Family Records (1976), it doesn't
> > deal with this particular Sheehy family - or with the Fitzgeralds of
> > either Imokilly or Coyne.  And it has nothing at all on the
> > complicated O'Biren family.  Sigh....  (I have a copy of BIFR on a CD-
> > ROM)
>
> How frustrating!  The Countess gives Teige O'Brien of Ballycorrig five
> daughters:
> 1) Catherine married Morgan Sheehy, Esq.
> 2) Honoria married Sir John FitzGerald, of Cloyne, Bart.
> 3) Maudin married O'Shaughnessy, of Gort
> 4) Julia married Mac Namara, of Cratala
> 5) Mary married Sir Thurlough Mac Mahon, of Cleana, in the county of
> Clare, Bart.
>
> If we can get dates for any of these daughters and their husbands -
> and those dates turn out to be late 16th/early 17th century - then
> we'll know that Teige O'Brien of Ballycorrig (d. 1582) is the guy
> we're looking for, the father-in-law of our Sir James Fitzgerald of
> Cloyne (d. 1612), despite the Countess being very chronologically
> confused in her own Sheehy pedigree.

If you ignore the Countess's reference to Sir John Fitzgerald of
Cloyne as a baronet (which we know he was not), the dates fir well for
him to be a son-in-law of Tieg O'Brien of Ballcorrig (d. 1582). Right
now, that's about the only piece of the Countess's pedigree that seems
to work. IF this piece IS right, then the earlier pieces of her
pedigree (leading back to Ellen Butler, the sister-in-law of Teig
O'Brien) are definitely problematic. I think the earlier Sheehy
descent is a concocted pedigree.

>
> It's a shame that Burke's Irish Family Records doesn't deal with the
> Sheehys or Fitzgeralds of Cloyne (Numbers 1 & 2 above), but if it
> deals with any of the families of the other three daughters above, we
> may be able to determine if this is indeed the Teige O'Brien of
> Ballycorrig family group we want, or if the Countess was correct and
> these Ballycorrig O'Brien sisters belong much later on in the late
> 17th century.
>
> Thanks & Cheers,             ----Brad

MacMahon and O'Shaughnessy definitely are not covered in BIFR 1976.
There is a long article on Macnamara, with numerous branches including
some with place names which could be interpreted as "Cratala" - but no
mention of a marriage to a Julia O'Brien, and no mention of Teig
O'Brien of Ballcorrig.

[John Higgins]

One more note on Macnamara: I just noticed that the BIFR article
shows a John Macnamara Fionn of Cratlol and Knappogue (d. 1602) who
married Amy O'Brien (for whom no parents are given). It's certainly a
stretch given the names, but the dates would work for this Amy to be
the Julia mentioned by the Countess. But at present I wouldn't bet
any money on it... FWIW this couple are the ancestors of the
remainder of the Macnamara family shown in BIFR.

[Brad Verity]

On Feb 8, 3:34 pm, Derek Howard <dhow...@skynet.be> wrote:
> To return to the Teige who died 1582 - his death is recorded as that of "Teige, the son of Conor, son of Turlough, son of Teige, son of Brian Chathaan Aenaigh O’Brien, also died in the month of August, in the same week with the Earl [of Clanrickard]. The deceased was a hero in prowess, and a soldier in valour.  He had been for some time Tanist of Thomaond, [and continued such] until he was expelled, together with his brother , by Donnell. He afterwards went to Spain, and to France, and thence to England, where he obtained his pardon, and his entire share of the territory, except the tanistry alone. He died at a good old age, and was interred in the monastery of Ennis".
> Annals of the Kingdom of Ireland by the Four Masters,ed O’Donovan, 2nd edition, 1856, vol 5, pp 1772-5.http://archive.org/stream/annalsofkingdomo05ocleuoft#page/1772/

On Feb 8, 9:17 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Teig O'Brien of Ballycorrig (d. 1582) was the son of Conor O'Brien,
> the last King [or Prince] of Thomond, here:http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00117042&tree=LEO
>
> But Teig was a son by Conor's 2nd wife Ellice (not shown in
> Genealogics but listed in BP and the older peerages).  Ellice was the
> daughter of Maurice FitzThomas Fitzgerald, 9th Earl of Desmond and his
> (only) wife.  The 9th Earl (sometimes called 10th in BP) is here:http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00177826&tree=LEO

Dear Derek & John,

Thank you both for clarifying where Teige O'Brien of Ballycorrig
Castle fits in to his family. Plus, it's great to have the source for
his date of death. I've added him into my database as he is a
descendant of Edward I thru his mother Ellice Fitzgerald.

> One more note on Macnamara:  I just noticed that the BIFR article
> shows a John Macnamara Fionn of Cratlol and Knappogue (d. 1602) who
> married Amy O'Brien (for whom no parents are given).  It's certainly a
> stretch given the names, but the dates would work for this Amy to be
> the Julia mentioned by the Countess.  But at present I wouldn't bet
> any money on it...  FWIW this couple are the ancestors of the
> remainder of the Macnamara family shown in BIFR.

Thank you for checking BIFR, John. It's a shame it only covers the
family of one of the five O'Brien of Ballycorrig sisters. But the
Macnamara/O'Brien match you mention above does fit into the same
timeframe as our Fitzgerald of Cloyne/O'Brien match. I see some
serious Googling is in order to try and find the matches of the other
three O'Brien sisters mentioned by the Countess. Since I now know they
are all Edward I descendants, I'll see what I can dig up over the next
couple weeks. Whatever source the Countess used for this O'Brien of
Ballycorrig branch of her Sheehy pedigree, it seems valid (even if the
rest of the pedigree is concocted, as you say): we have an account of
the 5 daughters of Teige O'Brien of Ballycorrig (d. 1582). Hopefully
some more digging will uncover confirmation, and we can confidently
place Sir John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne's wife Honora O'Brien
as the daughter of Teige of Ballycorrig.

It's certainly a good day's work. We've taken an individual in Gerald
Paget's Ancestry of Prince Charles - Honora Fitzgerald, mother-in-law
of the 5th Baron Inchiquin - for whom Paget provided only a father,
and identified her four grandparents, with the ability to trace back
the ancestry of three of them. Thank you very much for all of your
help on this.

Cheers, -----Brad