King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt
Douglas Richardson
Sir Eustace (or Eustache) d'Auberchicourt (or d'Abrichecourt,
Dabridgecourt) (died 1372), captain of Carentan, Lieutenant of
Limousin and Périgord, veteran of the famous Battle of Poitiers, is
best known to newsgroup members as the second husband of Elizabeth of
Jülich (or Jüliers) (died 1411), widow of John, Earl of Kent. It is
well established that Elizabeth of Jülich was the niece of Queen
Philippe of Hainault, wife of King Edward III of England. Sir Eustace
and Elizabeth's son, William d'Auberchicourt, for instance, is styled
"kinsman" [consanguine] of Queen Philippe of Hainault on the
monumental brass at his tomb at Bridport, Dorset [Reference: Rogers,
Antient Sepulchral Effigies (1877): 105-106].
Recently, I learned that Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt has royal
connections of his own. It appears that Sir Eustace was styled "très
chiere et féal cousin" by King Charles (or Carlos) II of Navarre in
1366 [Reference: Documents des Archives de la Chambre des Comptes de
Navarre (Bibliothèque de l'École des hautes etudes 84) (1886):155].
See the following weblink for this reference:
At the present time, I'm unaware of the nature of the kinship between
Sir Eustace and King Charles II. However, Sir Eustace must have
something rather exalted in his ancestry, as King Charles II's
ancestry for the first five generations goes back to the top families
of Continental Europe, including three descents from the Kings of
France, and other descents from the Kings of Navarre, the Dukes of
Brabant, Brittany, and Burgundy, and the Counts of Artois.
While it is believed that Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt's descendants
remained on the Continent, I believe his brother, Nicholas, of
Stratfield Say, Hampshire, left descendants in England who occur under
the name, Dabridgecourt. If so, it would seem well worth researching
the Dabridgecourt ancestry to determine the exact connection between
Sir Eustace and King Charles II of Navarre. Among Nicholas
Dabridgecourt's probable descendants is the immigrant, William Leete,
colonial Governor of Connecticut, for which please see Gary Boyd
Roberts, Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants (2006): 538-539.
For limited but useful information on the early Dabridgecourt family,
interested parties may wish to read the material written by Beltz at
the following weblink:
Lastly, there is a surviving seal of Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt
dating 1361 which is described in Ellis, Catalogue of Seals in the
P.R.O., 2 (1981): 31:
A shield of arms, couché: ermine, three bars each with three
indistinct charges; helm above with mantling and crest: from a
coronet, a double plume of feathers, ermine and barred as in the
arms. The background is diapered with cinquefoils within octagons.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
John Higgins
d'Aubrichecourt] may want to check out an article by C. E. Long in vol. 1 of
"The Topographer and Genealogist" [1846], as well as articles on Sir John
Dabridgecourt, KG (d. 1415) and his brother Nicholas Dabridgecourt (d. 1400)
of Strathfieldsay in Roskell's "History of Parliament 1386-1421". None of
these references shed any light on the murky ancestry of Sir Eustace
d'Aubercicourt, but they do suggest some different relationships between the
early members of the family (Sanchet/Sanche, Eustace, John and Nicholas)
than those indicated by Beltz in his Garter history. BTW, Sir Sanchet,
Eustace's possible brother was a founding member of the Order of the Garter.
In particular, Long indicates that chronology suggests that Nicholas (from
whom the subsequent Dabridgecourts descend) as well as his brother Sir John,
KG, were not brothers of Sir Sanchet and Sir Eustace as Beltz apparently
indicates, but instead were probably sons of Sir Sanchet. Roskell indicates
that Nicholas and Sir John were either sons or nephews of Sir Sanchet, and
he does not indicate a specific relationship for Sir Eustace, calling him
only their kinsman.
Based on these sources, it seems that these relationships are too uncertain
to be established firmly, to say nothing of the further ancestry of any of
these individuals. I think that Leo is correct in suggesting that the
reference of Charles II of Navarre to Sir Eustace as his cousin is
recognizing a cousinship by marriage.
Another source that also doesn't shed much light on this problem (at least
for the English family) is Schwennicke's ESNF 13:22-24.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leov...@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 4:57 PM
Subject: Fw: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman,Sir
Eustace d'Auberchicourt
Dear Douglas,
Your message made me look for the House of Julich in ES Volume XVIII Tafel
29. Here Sir Eustace is shown as having married Elisabeth/Isabelle von
Julich 29 September 1360 at Wingham, Kent. He is recorded as a KG and died
shortly after 1 December 1372 near Evreux.
When Charles II 'the Bad' called him his cousin in 1366, could that have
been in honour of Sir Eustache's wife? They are third cousins.
Sir Eustache has to be Sir Sanchet d'Abrichecourt (Aubericourt) who was one
of the founding knights of the Order of the Garter.
In Cahiers de Saint Louis last volume page 23, he is called Eustache
(Sanche) and their son Guillaume as "without known posterity.".
Sadly I cannot find any parents for Eustace. The only mention of a
Dabridgecourt I can find is a Sir John (died in 1415) and in 1413 became a
Knight of the Garter.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Dear Newsgroup ~
http://books.google.com/books?vid=06Pes72w7vr3eFK8AyGBplY&id=jJMWAAAAIAAJ&pg
=PP140&lpg=PP140&dq=Eustache+Aubichicourt#PPP203,M1
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN1417970804&id=Sv3Vm0nrbHgC&pg=RA65-PA9
1&lpg=RA65-PA91&ots=RlSvArlthz&dq=Abrichecourt&sig=Gy4kr2UEulxaTTb8809fFGTUJ
_0#PRA65-PA90,M1
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Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Those interested in the family of Dabridgecourt [or d'Aubercicourt or
> d'Aubrichecourt] may want to check out an article by C. E. Long in vol. 1 of
> "The Topographer and Genealogist" [1846], as well as articles on Sir John
> Dabridgecourt, KG (d. 1415) and his brother Nicholas Dabridgecourt (d. 1400)
> of Strathfieldsay in Roskell's "History of Parliament 1386-1421". None of
> these references shed any light on the murky ancestry of Sir Eustace
> d'Aubercicourt, but they do suggest some different relationships between the
> early members of the family (Sanchet/Sanche, Eustace, John and Nicholas)
> than those indicated by Beltz in his Garter history. BTW, Sir Sanchet,
> Eustace's possible brother was a founding member of the Order of the Garter.
Eh?
Not in this list of the first 25 and more:
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/garterlist.htm
See number 120 for the only other d'Abrichecourt KG.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
John Higgins
a KG, and Roskell goes further (also citing Beltz) to say in two biographies
that he was a "founder member" of the Order of the Garter. I don't have
access to Beltz (and the Google Books version is very incomplete), so I
can't resolve this issue.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <t...@powys.org>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman,Sir
Eustace d'Auberchicourt
Eh?
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/garterlist.htm
-------------------------------
al...@mindspring.com
mark_...@hotmail.com
Risoir de Bernissart en Artois" to a "Filips II de Stoute van
Bourgondie" in 1365. The reference to "Zie ES NF Band III Tafel 315"
might be worth following up. IF the marriage is correct, and IF Maria
was close kin to Sir Eustace, the family was extremely well connected
by the later 14th century. Of course, this may all be well known...
See: http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?
op=GET&db=jansenk&id=I100428
Best,
Mark Bridge
Leo van de Pas
Many thanks for mentioning this, much appreciated, but
There was no marriage in 1365. "Filips II de Stoute van Bourgondie" is the
same as Philippe II the Bold Duke of Burgundy, he lived from 1342 to 1404
and in 1369 he married Margarethe of Flanders and Brabant.
ES III Tafel 315 shows how Philipp(e) II der Kuehne /Bold/Stoute had a
relationship with Marie d'Aubericourt, widow of Gilles de Silly, and
daughter of Baudouin Seigneur d'Estaimbourg and Marguerite de Mortagne
from this relationship there was a son Henri born about 1360 and _possibly_
a daughter.
In the male line four generations are shown, with four females who married.
A fascinating footnote is given
Descendants, the family of le Hardy de Beaulieu, acknowledged 23 July 1893
to belong to the Belgian nobility.
I am sure the Aubericourt family was well connected but (I think) they
belonged to the lower aristocracy, and it appears they became extinct which
explains why so little concrete details can be found.
Again many thanks for catching up with this.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <mark_...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman,Sir
Eustace d'Auberchicourt
Janet
Ball but the mother was she Mary Montague?
Janet
D. Spencer Hines
William Johnson, from Norwich, England.
She reportedly died before George was born.
DSH
"Janet" <mon...@getgoin.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2864.11708559...@rootsweb.com...
Pres. George Washington's mother Mary Ball parents I know father is Joseph
Ball but the mother was she Mary Montague? [sic]
Janet
Janet
Mary Montague widow for William Johnson. Mary Montague Johnson married
Joseph Ball the parents of Mary Ball mother George
I found Mary Montague parents were Peter and Mary/Elizabeth Montague
Thank you D. Spencer Hines for help
Janet
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.29/673 - Release Date: 2/6/2007
5:52 PM
.
Janet
Janet
-------Original Message-------
D. Spencer Hines
Accounts Differ.
"Mrs. Mary ____ Johnson, died 1721, married (3) Richard Hewes; very likely
she was the Mary Bennett of West Chester, England who married William
Johnson of Norwich, Middlesex County, Virginia on 10 February 1688/89 and
was probably a near kinswoman of a Thomas Bennett of Westmoreland County,
living 1738/39."
Gary Boyd Roberts, _Ancestors of American Presidents_, 1995, p. 1.
DSH
"Janet" <mon...@getgoin.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2872.11708690...@rootsweb.com...
Douglas Richardson
Following my earlier post regarding Sir Eustace (or Eustache)
d'Auberchicourt, I've done additional research on this matter. Below
is a revised and expanded account of John of Kent, his wife, Elizabeth
of Jülich, and of her second husband, Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt.
The material below includes several additional facts not mentioned in
Complete Peerage (sub Kent). Among other details, it appears that Sir
Eustache and his wife, Lady Elizabeth, had a second son, François
d'Auberchicourt, who died without issue in 1410, the year previous to
his mother's death. Although several sources assigns Sir Eustace and
Elizabeth a third son named Sanche, I'm confident that Sanche has been
confused with François, and that there was no son named Sanche. Lady
Elizabeth's will makes it clear that she had no living children at the
time she made her will in 1411.
Feuchère whose account of the Auberchicourt family is cited below
identifies Sir John Daubridgecourt (died 1415), of Markeaton,
Derbyshire, and his brother, Sir Nicholas Daubridgecourt (died 1400)
of Stratfield Saye, Hampshire as sons of Nicholas d'Auberchicourt, the
older brother of Sir Eustace (or Eustache) d'Auberchicourt. The
parentage of Sir John and Sir Nicholas was left rather muddled by
Roskell.
I've included a detailed note below regarding the evidence that Sir
Eustace d'Auberchicourt was the same individual as Sir Sanchet
d'Auberchicourt, who was a Founder Knight of the Order of the Garter
in 1348.
Lastly, if Feuchère is correct, it would seem that Sir Eustace
d'Auberchicourt was possibly near related to Sir Paon de Roet (or
Ruet, Roelt), the father of Katherine de Roet, third wife of John of
Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster. This should come as welcome news to Judy
Perry.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
ACCOUNT OF THE KENT-D'AUBERCHICOURT FAMILY
I. JOHN OF KENT, Earl of Kent, Lord Woodstock, 4th Lord Wake, 2nd son,
born at Arundel, Sussex 7 April 1330. In 1347 he was granted his
father’s lands to hold until he was of age, for his maintenance; a
similar grant was made in 1349. He married by dispensation dated 3
April 1348 (they being related in the 3rd and 4th degrees of kindred)
ELIZABETH OF JÜLICH (or JULIERS), daughter of William (or Guillaume)
I, Margrave (afterwards Duke) of Jülich, Prince of the Empire, Earl of
Cambridge in England, Lieutenant, Captain and Vicar General in France
for King Edward III, by Jeanne, daughter of Guillaume III, Count of
Hainault, Holland, and Zeeland. She was niece of Philippe of
Hainault, wife of King Edward III. They had no issue. In 1349 he was
granted the wardship of his mother’s lands until he came of age for a
payment of 3,000 marks. In 1351 the king took his homage and gave him
livery of all the lands which his father and mother had held in
chief. He was summoned to Parliament from 1 Jan. 1347/8 to 15 Nov.
1351, by writs directed Johanni comiti Kanc’. JOHN, Earl of Kent,
died 26 (or 27) Dec. 1352, and was buried in the Church of the Grey
Friars, Winchester, Hampshire. Following his death, his widow,
Elizabeth, was veiled at Waverley Abbey by Bishop Edington. In due
course, being minded to change her condition, she married (2nd) at
Wingham, Kent 29 Sept. 1360 EUSTACE (or EUSTACHE) d’AUBERCHICOURT (or
Daubrichecourt), Knt., in right of his wife, of Bedhampton, Hampshire
and Ufford, Northamptonshire, Governor of Mons, Captain of Bouchain
and Carentan, Lieutenant of Limousin and Périgord, younger son of
Nicholas d’Auberchicourt, Knt., seigneur of Auberchicourt (Nord, arr.
and canton of Douai) and Bugnicourt, possibly by ____ du Roeulx. They
had two sons, François (seigneur of Ville-Oiseau and Rochefort-sur-
Mer) and William. Eustace was possibly married previously—perhaps to
the Alice Daubrichecourt, who occurs as damsel to Queen Philippe of
Hainault in 1358. In 1345 he was granted all the chattels of John
Wardidieu, who was indicted for the death of John Poteman. He was
present at the siege of Calais in 1346–47, with Sir Paon de Ruet (or
Roelt), possibly his kinsman. In 1348 he was a Founder Knight of the
Order of the Garter [see note below]. He fought at the Battle of
Poitiers in 1356. In 1360 he was one of the signers of the convention
of Calais which confirmed the Treaty of Bretigny. In 1360 he was
granted an annuity of 40 marks for life for good service in the king’s
wars and elsewhere. In 1361 he was granted the keeping of the lands
of William Fifhide, of Catherington, Hampshire, late tenant in chief,
during the nonage of William the son and heir, together with the
marriage of the said heir. In 1362 he was going beyond the seas on
the king’s service. In 1363 he was going to Ireland on the king’s
service. The same year he presented to the church of Ufford,
Northamptonshire. He fought at the Battle of Auray in 1364. The same
year he negotiated a truce with Louis of Navarre, Count of Beaumont,
concerning Normandy. In 1366 his wife, Elizabeth, was granted a
license for an oratory for her manor of Bedhampton, Hampshire. In
1369 she was granted a dispensation to feed one poor person for a
number of days, in lieu of an annual pilgrimage to St. Thomas of
Canterbury on foot and certain days of abstinence (the latter being
the penance imposed on her for breaking her vow of chastity). In 1370
he assisted at the siege of the castle of Rochechouart (Haute-Vienne),
and was subsequently taken prisoner at Pierre Buffière in Limousin.
Being only able to pay 8,000 francs of the 12,000 francs required as
ransom, he left his son, François, as a hostage with his wife's
kinsman, Louis II, Duke of Bourbon. He and his wife, Elizabeth,
presented to the church of Bedhampton, Hampshire 27 June 1372. Sir
Eustace d’Aubrichicourt died shortly after 1 Dec. 1372, in the comté
of Évreux. In 1375 Archbishop Sudbury ordered that masses be said at
Blean, Kent for the souls of Sir Eustace and his wife for works of
piety done in the hospital of St. Thomas the Matyr. In 1377 his
widow, Elizabeth, was licensed to choose her own confessor. In 1379
and again in 1398, she presented to the church of Ufford,
Northamptonshire. Lady Elizabeth of Jülich, Countess of Kent, died 6
June 1411, and was buried in the Church of the Grey Friars,
Winchester, Hampshire. She left a will dated 20 April 1411, proved 30
June 1411. By the terms of her will, she left £10 to two chaplains at
Oxford to say mass for her soul for a whole year.
[Note: J. Maskell in Antiquarian Mag. & Bibliographer 3 (1883): 286
states that Sir Eustace d’Auberchicourt was sometimes designated by
the first name of Sanche (“Eustache parfois designé par le prenom de
Sanche”), citing Lettenhove, Oeuvres de Froissart: Chroniques, 5
(1868): 215. If true, this Sir Eustace would surely be the same
person as Sir Sanchet d’Auberchicourt who was a Founder Knight of the
Order of the Garter in 1348. This reference in Froissart, however,
only mentions Sanche d’Auberchicourt in passing with Sir Paon de Ruet
(or Roet, Roelt), possibly his near kinsman, both of which individuals
were present at the siege of Calais in 1346. Feuchère’s well
researched account of the Auberchicourt family agrees that Eustace and
Sanche were the same person, and states that Eustace’s mother was
undoubtedly a member of the Roeulx family (see Les Vieilles familles
chevaleresques – du nord de la France 1st ser. No. 1 (1945): 61,
footnote 274). Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the Garter
(1841): 90–92, on the other hand, believed that Eustace and Sanche
were separate and distinct individuals. Saint John Hope, Plantagenet
Stall Plates (1902) states that Sanche d’Auberchicourt died about
1360, whereas Eustace is known to have died c.1372. If so, then
Sanche and Eustace would obviously be two separate individuals. Grace
Holmes, Order of the Garter (1984) refutes Saint John Hope’s death
date for Sanche, saying that Sanche’s death date is unknown. If
Holmes is correct, then the chief obstacle to Sanche and Eustace being
the same person is removed. Furthermore, Beltz states that Eustace is
described by Froissart “as the second son of the sire
d’Aubricicourt.” Eustace’s elder brother was clearly Nicholas
d’Auberchicourt, Prévôt of Valenciennes, Captain of Enghien, who was
still living in 1358. Feuchère assigns Eustace and Nicholas only one
other brother, a certain Gilles d’Auberchicourt, who was bailiff of
Busignies and Prémont in 1350. Although the evidence is slim, it
would seem that Maskell and Feuchère are correct that Eustache and
Sanche d’Auberchicourt are the same person].
References:
Sandford, Gen. Hist. of the Kings of England (1677): 214. Nichols,
Coll. of All the Wills (1780): 212–216. Bridges, Hist. & Antiq. of
Northamptonshire 2 (1791): 601–603. Blore, Hist. & Antiq. of Rutland
1(2) (1811): 37 (Kent/Holand pedigree). Ferguson, The British
Essayists 25 (1823): 106–109. Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826):
179. Clutterbuck, Hist. & Antiqs. of Hertford 3 (1827): 287–288
(Beaumont-Quincy pedigree). Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order
of the Garter (1841): ci, 6, 90–92 (biog. of Sir Sanchet
d’Abridgecourt). Top. & Gen. 1 (1846): 197–207. Lipscomb, Hist. &
Antiqs. of Buckingham 1 (1847): 69–70 (faulty Dabridgcourt pedigree).
Hall, The St. James’s Mag. 1 (1861): 184. Cussans, Hist. of
Hertfordshire 1(1) Braughing Hundred (1870): 130–138. Queux de Saint-
Hilaire, Œeuvres complètes de Eustache Deschamps (Société des Anciens
Texts Français) 1 (1878): 355. Burke, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited,
and Extinct Peerages (1883): 433 (sub Plantagenet). Chandos Herald,
Life and Feats of Arms of Edward the Black Prince (1883): 333.
Antiquarian Mag. & Bibliographer 3 (1883): 285–288. Izarn, Le compte
des recettes et dépenses du roi de Navarre de 1365 à 1370 (1885): 324–
326. Documents des Archives de la Chambre des Comptes de Navarre
(Bibliothèque de l’École des hautes etudes 84) (1886): 92–93, 142, 155
(Eustache d’Aubichicourt styled “cousin” by King Charles II of Navarre
in 1366). Froissart, Chroniques de J. Froissart 8 (1888): vii–viii.
Cutts, Scenes and Characters of the Middle Ages (1886): 154. Hunt,
Two Chartularies of the Priory of St. Peter at Bath (Somerset Rec.
Soc. 7) (1893): 82, 206. Birch, Catalogue of Seals in the British
Museum 3 (1894): 386 (seal of John, Earl of Kent—A shield of arms:
three lions passant guardant in pale, within a bordure. Suspended by
a strap from a forked tree. Within an elaborately traced gothic
panel, ornamented with ball-flowers along the inner edge). Kirby,
Wykeham’s Reg. 1 (1896): 43; 2 (1899): 100, 273. Papal Regs.: Letters
3 (1897): 268. C.P.R. 1343–1345 (1902): 557. Bell-Irving, Mayfield,
the Story of an old Wealden Village (1903): 44. Les cent ballades:
poème du XIVe siècle composé par Jean le Seneschal (Société des
Anciens Texts Français) (1905): l, lxv–lxvi (re. François
d’Auberchicourt, son of Sir Eustace). VCH Hampshire 3 (1908): 94–
101. C.P.R. 1358–1361 (1911): 131, 456, 521, 525, 527. C.P. 2
(1912): 493 (sub Cambridge); 7 (1929): 148–150 (sub Kent); 12(2)
(1959): 304 (sub Wake). C.P.R. 1361–1364 (1912): 58, 182, 319. Cal.
IPMs 9 (1916): 233–235; 10 (1921): 41–55. Yorkshire Inquisitions 5
(Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 59) (1918): 92–93. VCH Buckingham 3
(1925): 11. Feuchère, Les Vieilles familles chevaleresques – du nord
de la France 1st ser. No. 1 (1945) (Auberchicourt family). Train,
Abs. of the IPMs Rel. Nottinghamshire 1 (Thoroton Soc. Recs. 12)
(1949): 4–6. Coat of Arms 7 (1962): 80–84. Schwennicke, Europäische
Stammtafeln 6 (1978): 33 (sub Jülich); 13 (1990): 24 (sub
Auberchicourt). Ellis, Cat. of Seals in the P.R.O. 2 (1981): 31 (seal
of Eustace Dabrichecourt dated 1361—A shield of arms, couché: ermine,
three bars each with three indistinct charges; helm above with
mantling and crest: from a coronet, a double plume of feathers, ermine
and barred as in the arms. The background is diapered with
cinquefoils within octagons), 60 (seal of Elizabeth, Countess of Kent
dated 1393–4—Surrounded by deep-cut elaborate tracery based on circles
and triangles, a shield of arms: three lions passant and a bordure
[KENT] impaling a lion rampant [JULIERS]). Edington, Reg. of William
Edington Bishop of Winchester 1346–1366 2 (Hampshire Recs. 8) (1987):
64.
Children of Eustace (or Eustache) d’Auberchicourt, K.G., by Elizabeth
of Jülich:
i. FRANÇOIS D’AUBERCHICOURT, seigneur of Ville-Oiseau, and, in right
of his wife, seigneur of Revel, Chamberlain of Louis II, Duke of
Bourbon, son and heir. He was left as a hostage in 1370 by his father
with Louis II, Duke of Bourbon. He first occurs as an adult in 1387,
in connection with his first cousin, Sir John d’Auberchicourt (son of
Nicholas). He married 27 April 1401 (by contract dated 2 Feb. 1401)
JEANNE FLOTTE, daughter and heiress of Antoine Flotte, Knt., seigneur
of Revel, Sainte-Geneviève, and Monteresson, by Catherine, daughter of
Guy de Cousan, seigneur of Cousan. They had no issue. On the
occasion of his marriage, his kinsman Louis II, Duke of Bourbon,
granted him the seigneurie of Rochefort-sur-Mer and half of Gensac.
FRANÇOIS D’AUBERCHICOURT died shortly before 19 August 1410. His
widow, Jeanne, married (2nd) Jacques de Châtillon, seigneur of
Dampierre, Sompuis, and Rollencourt, Pannetier of France, son of
Jacques de Châtillon, seigneur of Dampierre, Sompuis, and Rollencourt,
Chamberlain of the king, Admiral of France. They had no issue. She
died 14 Feb. 1431. Anselme, Hist. de la Maison Royale de France 6
(1726): 112 (sub Châtillon), 277 (sub Flotte) (François
d’Auberchicourt styled “cousin” by Louis II, Duke of Bourbon).
Lettenhove, Oeuvres de Froissart: Chroniques 8 (1869): 102–103
(François, son of Sir Eustace d’Auberchicourt, styled “nephew of the
Duke of Juliers, son of his sister” [nepveux au duc de Jullers, fils
de sa soer]); 12 (1871): 330–331 (François styled “first
cousin” [cousin germain] of Sir John d’Auberchicourt, son of his
uncle, Nicholas d’Auberchicourt). Feuchère, Les Vieilles familles
chevaleresques – du nord de la France 1st ser. No. 1 (1945)
(Auberchicourt family). Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln 13
(1990): 24 (sub Auberchicourt).
ii. WILLIAM D’AUBERCHICOURT. He died young and was buried at
Bridport, Dorset. Top. & Gen. 1 (1846): 197–207. Rogers, Antient
Sepulchral Effigies (1877): 105–106. Antiquarian Mag. &
Bibliographer, 3 (1883): 285–288 (“William … lies buried in the parish
church of St. Mary at Bridport, in Dorsetshire. His tomb existed in a
decayed condition so lately as 1855, when I copied the inscription
thus: Hic jacet Willius filius Elizabethæ de Julers commitisse Kantii
consanguiniæ Phillipæ quondam regis Angliæ … (?consortis). During the
‘restoration’ of the church in 1858 the tomb and the inscription were
both destroyed.”). C.P. 7 (1929): 149, footnote g (sub Kent).
Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln 13 (1990): 24 (sub Auberchicourt).
Douglas Richardson
Respecting the position that Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt is the same
person as Sir Sanche d'Auberchicourt, Founder Knight of the Order of
the Garter, I can add an additional source.
In 1846 "C.E.L." published a useful account of the Daubridgecourt
family of England in The Topgrapher and Genealogist, volume 1, pp.
167-207. At the end of this article, the author added the following
postscript:
"Since the above was written, the Compiler has received a very
courteous communication from the Sous Préfet of Douay, stating that
there are now no traces of the castle of Aubercicourt. Carpentier, in
his History of Cambray, published 1664, gives a further account of the
family. He states, that Baldwin d'Aubercicourt, who was slain at the
battle of Courtray in 1302, was the father of Eustace ("que les
Historiens Anglais nomment mal Sanche ou Sanche d'Ambercicourt,") who
received Queen Isabella, that he was made a Knight of the Garter, and
served as Poictiers, &c.; also that he was the father of John (K.G.)
and Nicholas." END OF QUOTE.
To date, I haven't encountered any historian, English or otherwise,
that refers to Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt as "mal Sanche." Be that
as it may, Carpentier was clearly of the impression that Eustace and
Sanche were the same person and that Eustace was a Knight of the
Garter..
Douglas Richardson
Good point. You're probably right that the word "mal" modifies the
verb, "nomment," not the name, Sanche.
If correct, I would guess that Carpentier was puzzled (as I am) that
someone named Eustace would ever be called Sanche, or that English
historians would think this was so. However, as far as I can tell,
Sanche is not a French given name. As such, I assume Sanche was
merely a nickname Sir Eustace obtained somewhere along the way in his
international travels as a mercenary knight.
The curious thing is that Sanche appears briefly in English records,
then comes Eustace. So if Sanche was Eustace's nickname, he dropped
it soon after he arrived in England.
What I'm more interested in is Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt's possible
kinship to Sir Pain de Roet (or Ruet, Roelt). That has more far
reaching implications I think.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Feb 9, 2:00 pm, "John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > To date, I haven't encountered any historian, English or otherwise,
> > that refers to Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt as "mal Sanche." Be that
>
> Doug, I think the translation of that might be "call wrongly" -- in
> other words, the "mal" modifies "nomment," not "Sanche."
>
> nomment mal = name wrongly (or call wrongly)
>
> However, just a guess.
taf
> If correct, I would guess that Carpentier was puzzled (as I am) that
> someone named Eustace would ever be called Sanche, or that English
> historians would think this was so. However, as far as I can tell,
> Sanche is not a French given name.
You are speculating that Eustace was related to Pain Roet, a Gascon,
and Sanche (Sancho/Sans) is a Euskaran (Basque/Gascon) name, so what's
the problem?
taf
Douglas Richardson
Hainault. Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt was from near Douai in
northeastern France. Neither man was from Gascony. For a map of
France showing the location of Douai, see the following weblink:
http://www.travelpost.com/EU/France/Nord-Pas-de-Calais/Valenciennes/map/3069076
Sir Pain de Roet is thought to have been a member of the du Roeulx
family, which connection, however, has never been proven. Feuchère,
Les Vieilles familles chevaleresques - du nord de la France 1st ser.
No. 1 (1945), pg. 57 says that Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt's mother
was undoubtedly ("sans doute") a Rouelx. This would be the same
family.
A Roeulx connection behind the Auberchicourt family would explain for
instance why Sir John d'Auberchicourt, nephew of Sir Eustace, became
Steward of the Household for John of Gaunt c. 1399 [see Roskell, House
of Commons 1386-1421, 2 (1992): 729-731 (biog. of Sir John
Dabrichecourt)]. John of Gaunt's wife at that date was Sir Pain de
Roet's daughter, Katherine de Roet.
pierre...@hotmail.fr
<...>
> ("que les
> Historiens Anglais nomment mal Sanche ou Sanche d'Ambercicourt,") who
> received Queen Isabella, that he was made a Knight of the Garter, and
> served as Poictiers, &c.; also that he was the father of John (K.G.)
> and Nicholas." END OF QUOTE.
>
> To date, I haven't encountered any historian, English or otherwise,
> that refers to Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt as "mal Sanche."
<...>
If a new proof was needed that Douglas Richardson does not understand
a single word of French, here it is...
Pierre
pierre...@hotmail.fr
<...>
> Sir Pain de Roet is thought to have been a member of the du Roeulx
> family, which connection, however, has never been proven. Feuchère,
> Les Vieilles familles chevaleresques - du nord de la France 1st ser.
> No. 1 (1945), pg. 57 says that Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt's mother
> was undoubtedly ("sans doute") a Rouelx.
<...>
I warmly suggest you learn a little of French before pontificating
again on such matters: except in specific context, "sans doute" does
not at all mean "undoubtedly" but "perhaps" or "probably". On the
contrary, "sans aucun doute" means "undoubtedly". I think it is useful
to point to what kind of catastrophic blunder you can come by such
basic mistakes.
Pierre
Douglas Richardson
Au contraire, mon ami, the translation of the French wordds "sans
doute" as "undoubtedly" is perfectly good. The internet sources,
WordlReference.com and Alta Vista babelfish, which I just consulted,
give the SAME translation. This does not mean, however, that there
are not alternative renderings such as you have suggested.
Me thinks you are merely striving to find fault in anything I post.
Perhaps I might recommend that you should take up knitting. As it
stands, your French is regretable and your manners are worse. Perhaps
you would be more proficient with a pair of knitting needles.
Sincèrement, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1171227845.1...@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
The feral arrogance and stupidity of this must be obvious enough even for
Richardson's claque.
Trying to contradict a native speaker of French and call his knowledge of
his language "regretable" on a point of idiom is preposterous even for the
great panjandrum of absurdity himself.
The failure of internet machines to translate idiomatic usage is clear from
the oafish post above.
Pierre was being helpful to newsgroup readers, and anyone who imagines that
"Historiens Anglais nomment mal Sanche" means "English historians name 'mal
Sanche'" patently needs all the help he can get.
"Sans doubte" often - indeed usually, and undoubtedly in the case under
notice - means "in all probability" rather than literally "without doubt".
This is not contestable.
"Au contraire" means "on the contrary" and is not compatible in the context
of Richardson's self-righteous balderdash with "This does not mean, however,
that there are not alternative renderings such as you have suggested".
Peter Stewart
pierre...@hotmail.fr
> Cher Pierre ~
>
> Au contraire, mon ami, the translation of the French wordds "sans
> doute" as "undoubtedly" is perfectly good. The internet sources,
> WordlReference.com and Alta Vista babelfish, which I just consulted,
> give the SAME translation.
Because machines are machines and it is better to be prudent with
them. Particularly when one has so little knowledge of French that he
needs them to translate such basic expression. I suggest you to use
rather a dictionary, if you know what it is.
> This does not mean, however, that there
> are not alternative renderings such as you have suggested.
That is not an alternative rendering but the common sense of the
expression. You made a countersense, that's all: you thought the
author you were quoting was saying that something was without doubt,
when in fact he said only that it was probable, no more. You would
have spared yourself some more ridicule by quickly recognizing it.
> Me thinks you are merely striving to find fault in anything I post.
Correction: there IS fault in anything you post.
> Perhaps I might recommend that you should take up knitting. As it
> stands, your French is regretable and your manners are worse. Perhaps
> you would be more proficient with a pair of knitting needles.
I do not care to be lectured on French by someone who has shown in the
past to be completely ignorant of that language and of others,
including Latin, about which he has nevertheless no shame to be
dogmatic.
And by the way I am still curious about your reading of a certain
Latin text. You lectured aggressively others about it, but never
bothered to answer my question:
http://groups.google.fr/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/0ea8fe96aad1ce23?hl=fr&
I give you nevertheless that your error on "sans doute", although
basic, demonstrates a less deep ignorance and is far less comical than
your senseless "mal Sanche". I doubt any English schoolboy would make
such error after a year of French course.
Pierre
Denis Beauregard
<royala...@msn.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>Cher Pierre ~
>
>Au contraire, mon ami, the translation of the French wordds "sans
>doute" as "undoubtedly" is perfectly good. The internet sources,
>WordlReference.com and Alta Vista babelfish, which I just consulted,
>give the SAME translation. This does not mean, however, that there
>are not alternative renderings such as you have suggested.
Sans doute is one of those misleading expressions. This one
actually mean there is a doubt while it looks like the opposite.
WordlReference.com is a spamdex, i.e. a site with no content and
using a look alike name to fool netters...
Perhaps you meant www.wordreference.com. The 4th line is clear:
sans doute (supposable) phrase presumable adj
In most texts, what you think to be an exception is the actual
meaning, i.e. likely, not "true" or "proven"
>Me thinks you are merely striving to find fault in anything I post.
>Perhaps I might recommend that you should take up knitting. As it
>stands, your French is regretable and your manners are worse. Perhaps
>you would be more proficient with a pair of knitting needles.
Et si on continuait cette discussion en français, histoire de voir
qui est francophone ici ?
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique - www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginning to 1765
Denis Beauregard
<pierre...@hotmail.fr> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
Quite funny ;-) My laugh of the day.
nomment mal Sanche = name him Sanche by mistake.
Douglas Richardson
"undoubtedly," here is a weblink for another translation of "sans
doute."
http://www.woxikon.com/fra/sans%20doute.php
In this instance, "sans doute" is translated "doubtless."
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
For contemporary evidence that Sir Pain de Roet (Roelt, Ruet) derived
from Hainault, not Gascony, may I direct everyone's attention to the
following contemporary document which concerns the inheritance of his
daughter, Katherine de Roet's son and heir, Sir Thomas Swynford. This
record is found in the Patent Rolls of King Henry IV, which monarch
was step-son to the said Katherine de Roet.
Date: 5 October 1411.
"Notification, because on account of a doubt as to the legitimacy of
the knight's knight Thomas Swynford certain persons of the parts of
Henaud have hitherto not permitted him to have diverse inheritances in
those parts which have descended to him on the side of his mothers
Dame Katherine de Roelt, late Duchess of Lancaster, that he is her son
and heir and born in lawful matrimony and a writing of his annexed to
these present letters, sealed with his seal of arms, is his deed and
he and his father and all his ancestors on his father's side have
borne the arms and used the seal." [Reference: C.P.R. 1408-1413
(1909): 323-324].
Henaud = Hainault
Now, will someone please post their evidence that Sir Pain de Roet was
from Gascony? Or, withdraw their erroneous claim?
taf
soc.history.medieval was grateful for the demonstration of the
workings of a Trained Historian and Genealogist, accepting Babelfish
over the word of a native speaker of French. That was probably worth
quite a laugh to them, as they have an equally 'scholarly' Swedish
poster there who lectures all of the Brits, Americans and Ausies about
the correct use of English.]
On Feb 9, 10:42 pm, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com>
wrote:
> John of Gaunt's father-in-law, Sir Pain de Roet (Roelt, Ruet) was from
> Hainault. Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt was from near Douai in
> northeastern France. Neither man was from Gascony.
My mistake. I was so astounded by the supposition that there was such
a thing as a "French name" that I confused mercenaries. If "French
name" means a name used by people in what is now (or even was then)
France, then Sanche certainly was a French name. The problem is that
this is meaningless, as contemporary naming patterns rarely apply
uniformly to a highly regionalized nation-state.
taf
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1171240335....@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> Since I'm sure there are other renderings of "sans doute" besides
> "undoubtedly," here is a weblink for another translation of "sans
> doute."
>
> http://www.woxikon.com/fra/sans%20doute.php
>
> In this instance, "sans doute" is translated "doubtless."
Can't you - or won't you - get it through your head that internet
translators and dictionaries are not useful for idiomatic expressions?
They can give the literal meaning, which in the case of "sans doubte" any
sensible English speaker should be able to work out for himself anyway, but
this is NOT the sense that the French term has in ordinary, idiomatic usage.
This means not only that French speakers such as Pierre and Denis think so,
but also that writers using the term know they will be understood as
thinking & saying so.
Pathetic attempts to vindicate yet another error cannot change this.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:oCPzh.6445$sd2....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:1171240335....@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>> Since I'm sure there are other renderings of "sans doute" besides
>> "undoubtedly," here is a weblink for another translation of "sans
>> doute."
>>
>> http://www.woxikon.com/fra/sans%20doute.php
>>
>> In this instance, "sans doute" is translated "doubtless."
>
> Can't you - or won't you - get it through your head that internet
> translators and dictionaries are not useful for idiomatic expressions?
>
> They can give the literal meaning, which in the case of "sans doubte" any
> sensible English speaker should be able to work out for himself anyway,
> but this is NOT the sense that the French term has in ordinary, idiomatic
> usage.
Goodness me, prodigious error can be catching - "sans doubte" above should
read "sans doute", sans nul doute.
Peter Stewart
taf
wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> For contemporary evidence that Sir Pain de Roet (Roelt, Ruet) derived
> from Hainault, not Gascony, may I direct everyone's attention to the
> following contemporary document which concerns the inheritance of his
> daughter, Katherine de Roet's son and heir, Sir Thomas Swynford.
. . .
> "Notification, because on account of a doubt as to the legitimacy of
> the knight's knight Thomas Swynford certain persons of the parts of
> Henaud have hitherto not permitted him to have diverse inheritances in
> those parts which have descended to him on the side of his mothers
> Dame Katherine de Roelt, late Duchess of Lancaster . . .
Not that it matters that much, as the point of this post was to "make
friends", (hence the childish crosspost and concluding challenge), but
the cited document, if accurately rendered, never mentions Pain de
Roet, and falls short of proving that Hainault was his place of
origin. It only shows that his daughter Catherine had inherited land
in Hainault. It shouldn't tax one's imagination too much to envision
scenarios whereby Catherine might have held land in Hainault without
her father being from there.
> Now, will someone please post their evidence that Sir Pain de Roet was
> from Gascony? Or, withdraw their erroneous claim?
Being such a stickler for accuracy, you would prove yourself a
hypocrite not to withdraw the erroneous claim that this document
provides "contemporary evidence that Sir Pain de Roet (Roelt, Ruet)
derived from Hainault".
taf
Douglas Richardson
> Being such a stickler for accuracy, you would prove yourself a
> hypocrite not to withdraw the erroneous claim that this document
> provides "contemporary evidence that Sir Pain de Roet (Roelt, Ruet)
> derived from Hainault".
>
> taf
Specifically speaking, the document is contemporary to Sir Pain de
Roet's grandson and heir, Sir Thomas Swynford. But the point of
posting the document and its date are obvious I think. Sir Thomas
Swynford was claiming estates in Hainault in right of inheritance
through his mother, Duchess Katherine de Roet.
He wasn't claiming estates in Gascony, dude.
taf
wrote:
> > Being such a stickler for accuracy, you would prove yourself a
> > hypocrite not to withdraw the erroneous claim that this document
> > provides "contemporary evidence that Sir Pain de Roet (Roelt, Ruet)
> > derived from Hainault".
>
> Roet's grandson and heir, Sir Thomas Swynford.
Yes, precisely. It actually does not contain word one about Pain de
Roet, and yet you claimed it proved something about him.
> But the point of
> posting the document and its date are obvious I think.
The point of posting it was obvious - to "make friends" in your own
'special' way. And in your own special way, you made a cockup of it.
> Sir Thomas
> Swynford was claiming estates in Hainault in right of inheritance
> through his mother, Duchess Katherine de Roet.
Right. Not in right of inheritance through his grandfather Pain de
Roet. There is a difference, your know?
> He wasn't claiming estates in Gascony, dude.
Which is in France, dude, or haven't you noticed since you obviously
don't understand the language. That would make names from there
"French" names, dude.
taf
taf
On Feb 11, 7:16 pm, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com>
wrote:
> Dear taf ~
>
> I stated that Sir Pain de Roet came from Hainault. You declared he
> came from Gascony.
You have your chronology confused, but yes, I mistakenly said he was
from Gascony, and I admitted as much.
You, on the other hand, inanely said "However, as far as I can tell,
Sanche is not a French given name", suggesting that in the 15th
century, there was such a thing as "a French given name", and further
displaying an ignorance of the name in question, which was distinctly
"French" in so much as it derived from what was then France.
Likewise, you, a Trained Historian and Genealogist, continue to argue
that looking at a few web pages makes you more expert in French idiom
than native speakers. Finally, you falsely claimed that a posted
document proved something about Pain de Roet that it did not.
The difference, as things now stand, is that I have admitted that I
was mistaken. You have also admitted my mistakes, which isn't exactly
the equivalent action. Is this an example of how you "make friends"?
Anyhow, since you helpfully pointed me to a French map when you
thought I needed your assistance to find Douai, I will return the
favor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrite
taf
Denis Beauregard
dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>[Lame crosspost removed.]
>
>On Feb 11, 7:16 pm, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com>
>wrote:
>> Dear taf ~
>>
>> I stated that Sir Pain de Roet came from Hainault. You declared he
>> came from Gascony.
>
>You have your chronology confused, but yes, I mistakenly said he was
>from Gascony, and I admitted as much.
>
>You, on the other hand, inanely said "However, as far as I can tell,
>Sanche is not a French given name", suggesting that in the 15th
>century, there was such a thing as "a French given name", and further
But there were French given names at that time for the mere reason
French was a language...
Sanche was the French version of the Spanish Sanchez, for example.
It is like saying John in English, Jean in French, Juan in Spanish
and Giovanni in Italian. But Sanche is not very common.
The problem is that most works are not written in the original
language spoken by that person so you rarely see the name as
written by a medieval person (in the case that person could write).
Most documents were written in Latin.
What can be confusing is that the south half of France in the
Medieval time (perhaps to the early 18th century but I am not
a linguist so I can't confirm) was speaking another language
than French, like Occitan or Breton. Not half the population
but half the land.
An estimate I made, from 1787 data, of languages spoken in France:
Alsacian 2,50%
Basque 2,50%
Breton 9%
Corse 0,50%
French 58%
Occitan or Provencal 27%
This estimate is based on the population of fiscal divisions which
are not the same as the provinces.
taf
francogene....@fr.invalid> wrote:
> Le 11 Feb 2007 20:01:11 -0800, "taf" <farme...@interfold.com> écrivait
> dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
> >You, on the other hand, inanely said "However, as far as I can tell,
> >Sanche is not a French given name", suggesting that in the 15th
> >century, there was such a thing as "a French given name", and further
>
> But there were French given names at that time for the mere reason
> French was a language...
This is an alternative usage, but not the one Mr. Richardson was
using. To say some name "is not a French name" does not mean it can't
be rendered in the French language, (obviously false for "Sanche") nor
that there is not a French form (again obviously false, as Sanche is
the French form), but that it is not a name that a 'French' person
would be expected to use. Now, one could apply 'French' to that group
of people in France who spoke the French language, and "Sanche is not
a name used by French-speakers" would be more valid, as this would
exclude Gascony, but this would likewise probably exclude Hainault (I
don't know about the predominant language around Douai in the 15th
century). Still, it would imply that all French-speaking people used
the same group of names. My point was that name preference is a
regional phenomenon. Yes, there were common names that are used
across the land (Guillaume, for example), but also unique names: one
should expect different names in Gascony (Sanche, Garcia) than in
Brittany (Conan, Alain) (even among French speakers); different names
in Champagne (Thibald) than in Toulouse (Pons); different names in
Hainault (Eustace) than in Alsace (George). (And, to expand,
different names in Galicia than Toledo; different names in
Northumberland than in Cornwall.)
> Sanche was the French version of the Spanish Sanchez, for example.
Sancho, actually, Sanchez is the patronymic form (meaning son of
Sancho).
> The problem is that most works are not written in the original
> language spoken by that person so you rarely see the name as
> written by a medieval person (in the case that person could write).
And much later. I have been working with a family in 17th/18th
century Lorraine where the vital records are first in Latin, then
German, then French. The only clues are the rare signatures, where a
record of Jean George is signed Hans Jurg.
taf
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
>
> Sancho, actually, Sanchez is the patronymic form (meaning son of
> Sancho).
>
Sancho in 12th/13th century.
>
> And much later. I have been working with a family in 17th/18th
> century Lorraine where the vital records are first in Latin, then
> German, then French. The only clues are the rare signatures, where a
> record of Jean George is signed Hans Jurg.
>
Lorraine, in german Lothringen was sometime *german*. Hans is the same
than Johann or the more scholar Johannes and is Jean in french. The
french George, is Georg in german and can also be written Jörg or
Joerg, sometimes Jerg. The native language of that Hans Jurg should
have been german but I would double check the Jurg.
Best regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
pierre...@hotmail.fr
> "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote in message
>
> news:oCPzh.6445$sd2....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com> wrote in message
> >news:1171240335....@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> >> Since I'm sure there are other renderings of "sans doute" besides
> >> "undoubtedly," here is a weblink for another translation of "sans
> >> doute."
>
> >>http://www.woxikon.com/fra/sans%20doute.php
>
> >> In this instance, "sans doute" is translated "doubtless."
>
> > Can't you - or won't you - get it through your head that internet
> > translators and dictionaries are not useful for idiomatic expressions?
>
> > They can give the literal meaning, which in the case of "sans doubte" any
> > sensible English speaker should be able to work out for himself anyway,
> > but this is NOT the sense that the French term has in ordinary, idiomatic
> > usage.
>
> Goodness me, prodigious error can be catching - "sans doubte" above should
> read "sans doute", sans nul doute.
>
C'est hors de doute. Although "doubte" was a curent orthograph for
"doute" at least until the 17th century.
Pierre
pierre...@hotmail.fr
<francisco.tavaresdealme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> taf escreveu:
>
> > Sancho, actually, Sanchez is the patronymic form (meaning son of
> > Sancho).
>
> Also Sancho and Sanches in Portuguese. Portugal had two kings named
> Sancho in 12th/13th century.
>
>
>
> > And much later. I have been working with a family in 17th/18th
> > century Lorraine where the vital records are first in Latin, then
> > German, then French. The only clues are the rare signatures, where a
> > record of Jean George is signed Hans Jurg.
>
> Lorraine, in german Lothringen was sometime *german*.
Actually, only a part of Lorraine spoke German: there was a part who
always was French-speaking.
> Hans is the same
> than Johann or the more scholar Johannes and is Jean in french. The
> french George
"George" is not French (except for women): Georges is French.
Douglas Richardson
The current thread concerning Sir Eustace (or Eustache)
d'Auberchicourt (died c.1372), husband of Elizabeth of Jülich,
Countess of Kent, has included a discussion regarding his possible
identity as "Sir Sanchet d'Auberchicourt," who was a Founder Knight of
the Knight of the Garter in 1348.
Following the lead of J. Maskell [see Antiquarian Mag. & Bibliographer
3 (1883): 286] and Feuchère [see Les Vieilles familles chevaleresques
- du nord de la France 1st ser. No. 1 (1945)], I've temporary assumed
that Eustace and Sanchet are the same person.
However, although I've looked for references to "Sanchet
d'Auberchicourt" in contemporary records, so far I've found none,
beyond one item in Froissart. Nor have I found any historians who
cites any references for this man. Regardless, there is supposed to
be a stall plate for this person in his position as a garter knight
which allegedly gives his name as "Mons Sanchete de Dabrichecourte."
In contrast, I've found one stray record in the Patent Rolls dated
1345, which seems to refer to this individual. In this record, he is
called "Sausetus Daubrichecourt." [Reference: Calendar of Patent
Rolls, 1343-1345 (1902): 557]. For a view of this actual record, see
the weblink below.
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v6/body/Edward3vol6page0557.pdf
Curiously, I've found yet another reference in a book index to
"Sausset d'Auberchicourt." This comes from the book, Cartulaire des
Comtes de Hainaut de l'avenement de Guillaume II a la mort de
Jacqueline de Baviere [1337-1436], edited by Leopold Devillers.
According to the index, the reference to Sausset can be found in this
work in Volume I, page 770.
If someone has access to this particular volume and page, I'd
appreciate it they would post the information regarding "Sausset
d'Auberchicourt" here on the newsgroup.
I have two immediate questions. First, does anyone know if Sausset is
a variant form of the given name, Eustace (or Eustache)? I know that
Collard and Colin, for instance, are variant forms of Nicholas. The
second question is: Is Sausset the intended name of the Knight of the
Garter rather than Sanchet? I ask this because the letter "u" and the
letter "n" in the medieval script are quite difficult to tell apart.
Hence, we have some archivists who read a name as Haudlo, and others
who read it as Handlo.
taf
<francisco.tavaresdealme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> taf escreveu:
>
> > Sancho, actually, Sanchez is the patronymic form (meaning son of
> > Sancho).
>
> Also Sancho and Sanches in Portuguese. Portugal had two kings named
> Sancho in 12th/13th century.
Yes, the first presumably being named for Afonso's great-uncle Sancho,
King of Castile, or more remotely, his great-great grandfather Sancho
Garces III of Navarre. The earliest occurance I am aware of is a
nobleman killed in battle against the muslims in about 800 in the
Basque regions, but I have not made any deep search for others.
> > And much later. I have been working with a family in 17th/18th
> > century Lorraine where the vital records are first in Latin, then
> > German, then French. The only clues are the rare signatures, where a
> > record of Jean George is signed Hans Jurg.
>
> Lorraine, in german Lothringen was sometime *german*. Hans is the same
> than Johann or the more scholar Johannes and is Jean in french. The
> french George, is Georg in german and can also be written Jörg or
> Joerg, sometimes Jerg. The native language of that Hans Jurg should
> have been german but I would double check the Jurg.
Yes, precisely. It was an example where the language of the original
record (French) hid the language of the subject of that record
(German). This continued long after France gained control of the
region, even through Napoleon's time, and you don't see uniform use of
French name forms used in the signatures until about 1830.
taf