Re: Mowbray ancestry of Camoys and Hansard: a conjecture
John P. Ravilious
Thursday, 14 June, 2007
Dear Rosie, Doug, Will, Doug, et al.,
Following on the earlier posts to this thread, an
alternate suggestion was made by Rosie. I had mentioned a
charter in Monasticon Anglicanum to which 'Roberto de
Mubrai', a son of Roger de Mowbray and Alice de Gant, was a
witness. Rosie has provided a charter of Nigel de Mowbray
(d. 1191) confirming a grant to Byland, dated 1186x1190,
which is witnessed by 'Robert de Mowbray my brother, William
and Robert my sons' and others [1]. Nigel's brother Robert
was the same individual I had mentioned: of the other two,
William was Nigel's well-known successor ca. 1191, and
Robert a younger son re: whom nothing further was heard,
at least until now.
Rosie suggests that Matilda (_____) Haunsard and Mabel
(___) de Torpel were nieces of the latter Robert, and
thereby also of William de Mowbray (d. 1224). This
suggestion has several positive elements: (A) there is no
need to postulate a hitherto unknown Robert de Mowbray, as
per my suggestion; (B) there are known siblings of Robert
de Mowbray (Roger de Mowbray, and a sister, wife of
Enguerrand du Humez (or de Hommet) - see CP IX:373, sub
_Mowbray_) for whom there is no subsequent record as to
English lands or heirs; and (C) Mabel de Torpel would have
a notable namesake by this identification, with Mabel
(allegedly Patric), wife of Nigel de Mowbray, as a
grandmother.
[ NOTE: this chart provides a conjectured connection,
indicated _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ]
Roger de Mowbray = Alice de Gant
______________________I_________________
I I
Nigel de Mowbray Robert de Mowbray
crusader; d. 1191
= Mabel
___I_____________________________________ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I I I ?
William Philip Robert Roger NN = NN
d. 1224 d. aft ? d. bef Enguerrand I
= Avice 1212 10 Nov du Hummet I
I 1233 ? I
_I____________________ _____________I__
I I I I
Nele Roger Matilda Mabel
d. 1230 b. aft 2 Oct = John = Roger
Oct 1209: Hansard de Torpel
d. 1266 ___________I
I ____________I______
V I I
Ascelin Roger de
= Ralph de Torpel
Camoys
I
V
There is certainly the possibility that Robert de
Mowbray, younger brother of William, had devised his lands
in Melton Mowbray to his nieces Maud and Mabel so that they
did not revert to the overlord (either his nephew Nele de
Mowbray, d. 1230, or his successor Roger, depending on the
actual date of death). We know of further that Mabel,
widow of Nigel de Mowbray, was dowered in the manor or a
moiety of Melton Mowbray (CP). Unfortunately, the VCH
volume that would cover Framland Hundred in Leicestershire
(including Melton Mowbray) has not seen the light of day
to date, which may hold the key as to what the exact
relationship was.
Should anyone have further documentation on this
matter, or suggestions for further fossicks, that would
be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] D. E. Greenway, Charters of the Honour of Mowbray
(London: Oxford Univ. Press for the British Academy,
1972), p.54, courtesy Rosie Bevan.
* John P. Ravilious