Agnes Besford Throckmorton

[Kay Allen]

Dear Group,

I am recreating Throckmorton research notes, which had been lost.

VCH Worcs. in Besford, says that it is doubtful that Agnes who married
Throckmorton is heiress of Alexander Besford. 

I don't have access to MGH and the article on Throckmorton or the work by C. W. Throckmorton, so could some kind soul please relate the evidence they give for Agnes being one of the heiresses of Alexander Besford. TIA.

Kay Allen

[Jan]

G. Andrews Moriarty, "The Early Throckmortons," Misc. Gen. Her., series 5, vol. 6 (1927), 225-253 at 253:
When we arrive at Thomas Throckmorton ("son of Lucy"), who begins to appear in Richard II.'s reign, we emerge once more into the light of day. This Thomas having entered the service of the Earl of Warwick, was advanced by him, and his son Sir John was married to the coheiress of one of the Earl's tenants, Elinor Spinney, who brought the family the estate at Coughton, where the eldest branch of this ancient family still resides. Thomas appears to have been alive as late as 1411 (cf. Worcs. Fines, case 260, file 26, no. 26, supra), and his widow Agnes was holding in Lench Randolph in the Feudal Aid of 1427-8 (vide supra). The compilers of the pedigree all state that his wife Agnes, to whom he was married as early as 1380 (cf. Coughton Charters, supra), was the daughter of Sir Alexander Besford, and they cite as proof of this some document of 22 Richard II. While I have found no direct proof of this statement, it is probably correct in view of the close connection that the Coughton Charters reveal between Thomas Throckmorton and his son John and Sir Alexander Besford. The Staffordshire fine from the William Salt Society's publications (supra) also tends to show this connection, as Sir William Clopton had married one of Sir Alexander's daughters (cf. Nash's Worcestershire), and furthermore the tomb of the Under Treasurer Sir John displayed the arms of Throckmorton impaling Besford (Survey of Worcs., p. 231, supra). This Agnes appears to have been connected with the Lench family, as she appears as holding Lench Randolph, and it seems likely that her mother belonged to that family.

[James R. Yeowell]

I notice the mention of Lench and this piqued my interest as Elizabeth Brode (daughter of Edmund Brode, of Dunclent, Stone, Worcestershire and Anne Jones) married George Lench, of Doverdale, Worcester (chr. 4 June 1581, St. Andrew's, Droitwich, Worcester -- son of Phillipp Lench and his wife Christean). This Brode family maybe related to my Broades in Herefordshire.

Elizabeth Brode's eldest brother John Brode, of Addis, Elmbride, Worcester married Anne Sheldon. She could be related to the Sheldons of Beoly, Worcestershire who also married into the Throckmorton and Peshall/Pershall famiies (who I am also a descendant of).

I am a descendant of the Throckmorton family via Margaret Throckmorton, daughter of Sir Thomas Throckmorton, of Coughton (died 13 July 1472) and Margaret Olney.

Does anyone know if there has been any research undertaken on the Lench family? The VCH article for Doverdale, Worcestershire (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43090)) briefly mentions them and I presume they would be related to the Lench family of Lench Randolph?

Any sources for further research are welcomed.

Regards,

James R. Yeowell

[James R. Yeowell]

Corrections:

I meant Worcestershire not Worcester.
Also read Elmbride as Elmbridge.

Apologies about the mistakes.

[Jan]

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 1:38:23 PM UTC-4, Kay Allen wrote:

Heritage Quest Online has a reprint of Moriarty's MGH article and the book by C. W. Throckmorton about the Throckmorton Family. Many local libraries have a subscription to Heritage Quest Online.

[Joe]

See: The Genealogist, vol. 10 no.1 (Spring 1989). P. 35-72 'Another look at Joan de Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?' by Paul C. Reed.

Also: The Genealogist, vol. 1 no. 1 (Spring 1980). P. 27-39 'Ravens or Pelicans: Who was Joan de Harley?' by John G. Hunt and Henry J. Young.

I believe this is the most recent published look at the Besford family. The thrust of the articles is to disprove a royal line of Alice Freeman and Robert Abell, but does provide much of the known evidence regarding the Besfords. Paul concludes that Agnes Besford m. Thomas de Throckmorton of Fladbury, and that she was the youngest of three heirs Alexander III de Besford.

Alexander I de Besford m. Margery
|
Alexander II de Besford m. Joan
|
Alexander III de Besford m. Beatrice
|
Agnes m. Thomas de Throckmorton

Previous publications made the Alexander Besford who m. Beatrice the son of John Besford by Joan Harley. Paul showed this to be incorrect and inferred he was a son of Alexander II Besford, a younger brother of John Besford.


p. 71 fn 240:
Though no direct evidence has been published, Nash accepted this connection and Moriarty presents a number of documents from which may be drawn the direct inference that Agnes was third daughter and coheir of Alexander [III] de Besford. Moriarty, p. 253 states that the compilers of the Throckmorton pedigree had relied on some document dated to 22 Richard II [1398/9J. At pp. 296-97, citing deeds at Coughton, he observes that Alexander de Besford had been enfeoffed by Thomas de Throckmorton of the lands he held at Throckmorton on the Friday before the Nativity of St. John the Baptist 3 Richard II [17 June 1379]. Alexander also witnessed deeds and charters at Throckmorton and Flad- bury, including one dated to Monday after St. John before the Latin Gate 21 Richard II [13 May 1398]. The accumulation of close associations and the impaling of the Besford arms by the son of Thomas and Agnes strongly indicates that the intermarriage took place.

Joe

[cynthia.ann...@gmail.com]

I'm wondering if the two online sources might shed some light. They do seem to be footnoted so maybe info is good. There is a HistoryOfParliamentOnline.com that is putting biographies of MPs online. It isn't completed yet but for the Years 1386-1421 we have: Alexander Besford (d. c. 1400 Besford, Worcs.) son of Alexander Besford by his w. Joan m. (1) a coh. of Lench of (Rous) Lench, Worcs. 1 da.; (2) bef. Jul 1386, Beatrice (d. 1403-4) widow of Thomas Bassingbourne of Hoddesdonbury in Broxbourne, Herts. and Manuden, Essex, 2 da. ....It goes on about his career and then into his family life ending with: Besford was survived by his widow and three daughters. These latter were Agnes Throckmorton and her half-sisters Margaret, who married firstly John Dixton...and then John de la Hay, and Joan, who married Sir William Clopton....
Another online source (also footnoted so may have some valid info) British History online under Parishes: Besford there is a write up on the Besfords: ...Alexander de Besford...must have died before 1341 when John de Besford and Joan his wife were holding the manor and made a grant of land to Alexander de Besford, probably their son, and Joan his wife. Joan, widow of Robert de Harley, released lands in Besford and elsewhere to Alexander de Besford in 1376-7 and in 1398-9 Alexander was dealing with land in Pershore. He died without male issue leaving either two or three daughters: Margaret...Joan...and perhaps Agnes who married Thomas Throckmorton of Fladbury.
So, I'm wondering is Agnes is daughter from the first wife and Margaret and Joan are from the second wife... And the possible reason why when Beatrice widow of Alexander Besford died what she held went to her two daughters???? leaving Agnes out of that part because she was only step-daughter to Beatrice.

[CE Wood]

"The Genealogist" v. 10, no. 1, pp. 35-72, "Agnes (de Besford) Throckmorton was therefore descended neither from the Harley family of co. Salop nor from the Harley family of co. Worcester."

Evidence indicates that Alexander de Besford (b. est. 1325?) was likely son of John de Besford's brother Alexander, thus entirely missing any possible connection to Joan [de Harley?].

CE Wood

[cynthia.ann...@gmail.com]

On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 7:46:06 PM UTC-4, CE Wood wrote:
> "The Genealogist" v. 10, no. 1, pp. 35-72, "Agnes (de Besford) Throckmorton was therefore descended neither from the Harley family of co. Salop nor from the Harley family of co. Worcester."
>
> Evidence indicates that Alexander de Besford (b. est. 1325?) was likely son of John de Besford's brother Alexander, thus entirely missing any possible connection to Joan [de Harley?].
>
> CE Wood

I'm so very confused by all this.

From History of Parliament on line for Alexander Besford d.c. 1400
"?s. of Alexander Besford by his w. Joan. m. (1) ? a coh. of Lench of (Rous) Lench, Worcs.,1 1da.; (2) bef. July 1386, Beatrice (d.1403/4), wid. of Thomas Bassingbourne† of Hoddesdonbury in Broxbourne, Herts. and Manuden, Essex, 2da. (1)He was not the Alexander Besford who married Margaret, sister of Thomas Hodyngton* of Huddington, Worcs., for after her husband’s death and before 1390 she married John Morant (father of Thomas Morant*): CP25(1)289/56/210. Margaret Hodyngton may, however, have been the shire knight’s stepmother."

"The family derived its name from Besford (near Pershore), and by Alexander’s death had acquired the manors of Flyford Flavell, ‘More’ and Hill near Fladbury, as well as property in Worcester. Alexander Besford was probably the grandson of the Worcestershire MP of the same name who had sat in 1313, 1315 and 1324. He inherited the family property by 1376, when Joan Corbet, relict of Sir Robert Harley of Willey, Shropshire, made a quitclaim to him of certain lands at Pershore and Besford.2 (2) Misc. Gen. et Her. (ser. 5), vi. 295-300; CP25(1)260/21/7, 25/56; VCH Worcs. iv. 20-21, 84-85, 149, 158; CAD, iii. B4198."

So this sounds like Alexander Besford d.c. 1400 was a son of Alexander Besford (but the ?s indicates what? they don't know the birth order as in was he first, second, third son or whatever) and that he was likely the grandson of Alexander Besford who was MP in 1313, 1315 and 1324. And then there's that Joan Corbet widow of Sir Robert Harley of Willey Shorpshire quit-claiming land to him.
Is this the same Robert Harley/Joan Corbet that has been discredited in AR7 & AR8 or a different couple altogether???
I'm not particularly looking for a Royal Connection. Just trying to trace my roots and get it right.
Can someone sort this out for me? Or point me in the right direction?
Any help, thanks.

[Joe]

Have you read the articles previously referred to in this thread?

See: The Genealogist, vol. 10 no.1 (Spring 1989). P. 35-72 'Another look at Joan de Harley: Will Her Real Descendants Please Rise?' by Paul C. Reed.

Also: The Genealogist, vol. 1 no. 1 (Spring 1980). P. 27-39 'Ravens or Pelicans: Who was Joan de Harley?' by John G. Hunt and Henry J. Young.

It is a better starting (and finishing?) point than the HoP article.

Joe

[cynthia.ann...@gmail.com]

Thanks Joe. Unfortunately, I'm a little old lady living in a small mountain town not close to a decent library and anyway I'm not so mobile in my old age. So on-line sources or what I can reasonably buy are about it for me. Is there an online source for these articles? or a reprint service that you know of? Not all of us are blessed with being near a decent library.

[Joe]

If you give me your email I will try to get you a copy.

Joe

[cynthia.ann...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 4:15:07 PM UTC-4, Joe wrote:
> If you give me your email I will try to get you a copy.
>
> Joe

Thanks Joe. Cynthia.Ann...@gmail.com