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Descent from Edgar Aetheling?
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keri CA
Feb 21, 2021, 7:37:24 PM2/21/21
to
There have been several discussions in the past concerning the descent
of various families from Edgar Aetheling [d after 1125] via a supposed
daughter Margaret who was mother of Henry Lovell. As I understand it,
the original source is not contemporary but dates from 1291, and in
fact includes a lacuna in the ms where the verb is missing, but it
seems that most historians who have examined it have concluded it
intends to portray Edgar as Margarets father. I just wondered if there
was any other evidence that this Henry Lovell existed and had a
mother called Margaret, whether or not she was daughter of Edgar.
Secondly have any of the historians who have examined this
issue ever connected Edgar Aetheling to the other Aethelings
who appear in the pipe rolls of Henry II? Understand that my
latin ability is limited and many of these entries are
abbreviated so I may have misunderstood the meaning.
These are
13 Hen. II (1166-67), p. 75: 2 marks fine paid by
an Edgar Adeling in Northumberland [I'm not sure if area
is for the court or indicates where the offence occurred].
22 Hen. II(1175-76), p. 216: I think this is another fine
for an Edward Aetheling in Surrey.
23 Hen. II(1176-77), p. 79: Gilbert Aetheling seems to have
undergone a trial by water and presumably died as his property?
was confiscated.
26 Hen. II(1179-80), p. 21: Another Edward Atheling was fined
in Norfolk/Suffolk but I dont understand the abbreviations
redd. comp. de dim. m. pro dissaisina injusta. In
thesauro .iij. s. et .v. d. Et debet .iij. s. et .iij. d.
This was mentioned as unpaid in 28 Hen. II (1181-82), p. 7.
Lastly I wondered if Aetheling as surname continued beyond
the 12th century, even if they were unconnected to the
original Edgar. Thankyou
Kerica
of various families from Edgar Aetheling [d after 1125] via a supposed
daughter Margaret who was mother of Henry Lovell. As I understand it,
the original source is not contemporary but dates from 1291, and in
fact includes a lacuna in the ms where the verb is missing, but it
seems that most historians who have examined it have concluded it
intends to portray Edgar as Margarets father. I just wondered if there
was any other evidence that this Henry Lovell existed and had a
mother called Margaret, whether or not she was daughter of Edgar.
Secondly have any of the historians who have examined this
issue ever connected Edgar Aetheling to the other Aethelings
who appear in the pipe rolls of Henry II? Understand that my
latin ability is limited and many of these entries are
abbreviated so I may have misunderstood the meaning.
These are
13 Hen. II (1166-67), p. 75: 2 marks fine paid by
an Edgar Adeling in Northumberland [I'm not sure if area
is for the court or indicates where the offence occurred].
22 Hen. II(1175-76), p. 216: I think this is another fine
for an Edward Aetheling in Surrey.
23 Hen. II(1176-77), p. 79: Gilbert Aetheling seems to have
undergone a trial by water and presumably died as his property?
was confiscated.
26 Hen. II(1179-80), p. 21: Another Edward Atheling was fined
in Norfolk/Suffolk but I dont understand the abbreviations
redd. comp. de dim. m. pro dissaisina injusta. In
thesauro .iij. s. et .v. d. Et debet .iij. s. et .iij. d.
This was mentioned as unpaid in 28 Hen. II (1181-82), p. 7.
Lastly I wondered if Aetheling as surname continued beyond
the 12th century, even if they were unconnected to the
original Edgar. Thankyou
Kerica
Peter Stewart
Feb 22, 2021, 7:43:13 PM2/22/21
to
On 22-Feb-21 11:37 AM, keri CA wrote:
> There have been several discussions in the past concerning the descent
> of various families from Edgar Aetheling [d after 1125] via a supposed
> daughter Margaret who was mother of Henry Lovell. As I understand it,
> the original source is not contemporary but dates from 1291, and in
> fact includes a lacuna in the ms where the verb is missing, but it
> seems that most historians who have examined it have concluded it
> intends to portray Edgar as Margarets father. I just wondered if there
> was any other evidence that this Henry Lovell existed and had a
> mother called Margaret, whether or not she was daughter of Edgar.
Henry Lovel did exist, as you can see from his undated charter for St
> There have been several discussions in the past concerning the descent
> of various families from Edgar Aetheling [d after 1125] via a supposed
> daughter Margaret who was mother of Henry Lovell. As I understand it,
> the original source is not contemporary but dates from 1291, and in
> fact includes a lacuna in the ms where the verb is missing, but it
> seems that most historians who have examined it have concluded it
> intends to portray Edgar as Margarets father. I just wondered if there
> was any other evidence that this Henry Lovell existed and had a
> mother called Margaret, whether or not she was daughter of Edgar.
Andrew's cathedral priory written before 30 March 1183 here
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=TdhAAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA261. His
mother's name was Margaret, whose donations (as wife of her second
husband) were confirmed by King William I as presumably mentioned in the
past discussions you reference.
The assertion that this Margaret was a daughter of Edgar the Ætheling is
a weak support for its own reliability, since the information (whether
correct or otherwise) was so entirely irrelevant to that matter in hand
that its inclusion reflects poorly on the judgement of the compiler/s.
This was stated in the account from the canons of Huntingdon priory
written in 1291 for Edward I when he was deciding the succession to the
Scottish crown - and of course descent from Edgar had nothing whatever
to do with this question.
We have an earlier source, in a London version of the Laws of Edward the
Confessor, written ca 1200, specifically stating that when Edgar died
his rights to the English throne had passed to his sister St Margaret of
Scotland. There were no doubt political motives for including this in a
version written for St Margaret's descendant, but it could hardly have
involved denying an actual line of descent from Edgar himself if the
Lovels had a legitimate claim still remembered 90 years later.
The passage from the Huntingdon priory account in Skene's edition reads:
"Iste Edwardus genuit Margaretam Reginam Scottorum et Edgarum. Edgarus
..... [genu]it Margaretam. De qua natus est Henricus dictus Lupellus"
The lacuna for all we know may have recorded her illegitimacy, for
instance "Iste Edwardus genuit Margaretam Reginam Scottorum et Edgarum.
Edgarus {de concubina} [genu]it Margaretam."
> Secondly have any of the historians who have examined this
> issue ever connected Edgar Aetheling to the other Aethelings
> who appear in the pipe rolls of Henry II? Understand that my
> latin ability is limited and many of these entries are
> abbreviated so I may have misunderstood the meaning.
>
> These are
> 13 Hen. II (1166-67), p. 75: 2 marks fine paid by
> an Edgar Adeling in Northumberland [I'm not sure if area
> is for the court or indicates where the offence occurred].
>
> 22 Hen. II(1175-76), p. 216: I think this is another fine
> for an Edward Aetheling in Surrey.
>
> 23 Hen. II(1176-77), p. 79: Gilbert Aetheling seems to have
> undergone a trial by water and presumably died as his property?
> was confiscated.
>
> 26 Hen. II(1179-80), p. 21: Another Edward Atheling was fined
> in Norfolk/Suffolk but I dont understand the abbreviations
>
> redd. comp. de dim. m. pro dissaisina injusta. In
> thesauro .iij. s. et .v. d. Et debet .iij. s. et .iij. d.
>
> This was mentioned as unpaid in 28 Hen. II (1181-82), p. 7.
>
> Lastly I wondered if Aetheling as surname continued beyond
> the 12th century, even if they were unconnected to the
> original Edgar. Thankyou
for atheling this means "A member of a noble family, a prince, lord,
baron; in Old English poetry often used in plural for ‘men’ (viri); in
later writers often restricted as a historical term to a prince of the
blood royal, or even to the heir apparent to the throne." It is no more
likely to indicate a connection to Edgar the Ætheling than someone
surnamed Wales would be linked to a later her to the English throne.
Peter Stewart
taf
Feb 22, 2021, 8:55:56 PM2/22/21
to
On Monday, February 22, 2021 at 4:43:13 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> I haven't looked into these occurrences, but according to the OED entry
> for atheling this means "A member of a noble family, a prince, lord,
> baron; in Old English poetry often used in plural for ‘men’ (viri); in
> later writers often restricted as a historical term to a prince of the
> blood royal, or even to the heir apparent to the throne." It is no more
> likely to indicate a connection to Edgar the Ætheling than someone
> surnamed Wales would be linked to a later her to the English throne.
Or for that matter, that someone named Prince must be a prince, or that someone named King must be a king.
> I haven't looked into these occurrences, but according to the OED entry
> for atheling this means "A member of a noble family, a prince, lord,
> baron; in Old English poetry often used in plural for ‘men’ (viri); in
> later writers often restricted as a historical term to a prince of the
> blood royal, or even to the heir apparent to the throne." It is no more
> likely to indicate a connection to Edgar the Ætheling than someone
> surnamed Wales would be linked to a later her to the English throne.
taf
Peter Stewart
Feb 22, 2021, 9:27:26 PM2/22/21
to
are more apposite examples than Wales.
It's interesting that some titles were taken as surnames (most of them I
suppose in early-modern times) but not others. There are families
nowadays surnamed King, Prince, Duke, Earl, Baron and Knight but I have
never heard of anyone calling himself Mr Marquess or Mr Viscount,
whereas Marquis and Vicomte both occur in France. I suppose this
indicates that most English surnames were adopted before these betwixt
ranks came into use as peerage titles.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
Feb 22, 2021, 9:58:11 PM2/22/21
to
descent from Edgar is that the lands in Oxfordshire and Warwickshire
held by his unmarried sister Christina passed after her death to Ralph
de Limesey, not to the Lovels.
Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
Feb 23, 2021, 8:32:04 AM2/23/21
to
Op dinsdag 23 februari 2021 om 01:43:13 UTC+1 schreef pss...@optusnet.com.au:
Hello Peter,
What would you make of the 'Ethelig' part in the name Isbrand Ethelig.
This person is in 1162 a withness in a deed of the Dutch count Floris III of Holland for the abby of Egmond.
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/ohz/#page=312&accessor=searchText&accessor_href=http%3A%2F%2Fresources.huygens.knaw.nl%2Fretroboeken%2Fohz%2FsearchText%2Findex_html%3Fpage%3D0%26source%3D1%26id%3DsearchText&source=1&size=858&view=imagePane
He is there present with other nobles and ministerials of the count.
I have never been able to place him or seen this Ethelig name part before. But now that persons with the name Aetheling surface I remembered that count Floris III of Holland married around 1162 Ada of Scotland, sister to king Malcolm IV. A funny coincidence.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
What would you make of the 'Ethelig' part in the name Isbrand Ethelig.
This person is in 1162 a withness in a deed of the Dutch count Floris III of Holland for the abby of Egmond.
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/retroboeken/ohz/#page=312&accessor=searchText&accessor_href=http%3A%2F%2Fresources.huygens.knaw.nl%2Fretroboeken%2Fohz%2FsearchText%2Findex_html%3Fpage%3D0%26source%3D1%26id%3DsearchText&source=1&size=858&view=imagePane
He is there present with other nobles and ministerials of the count.
I have never been able to place him or seen this Ethelig name part before. But now that persons with the name Aetheling surface I remembered that count Floris III of Holland married around 1162 Ada of Scotland, sister to king Malcolm IV. A funny coincidence.
With regards,
Hans Vogels
Peter Stewart
Feb 23, 2021, 5:58:55 PM2/23/21
to
his time and place.
However, I would caution against assuming that the name Ethelig may
represent a surname connected to Atheling. For starters, he follows
another Isbrand who is bynamed Freso, suggesting a Frisian, and there
had hardly been time within 1162 (the year of Floris III's marriage to
Ada, as stated in the dating) for a Scot coming in Ada's retinue to have
adopted a local given name (I don't recall ever encountering an Isbrand
in Scottish records).
Also the orthographic habits of the scribe suggest to me that Ethelig is
more likely to be the name Edelig than derived from Atheling. He spelled
the emperor's name (conventionally Frederico) as Fritherico, so he may
have been somewhat 'th'-happy.
I would suggest looking for occurrences of Edelig in similar charters
before drawing any conclusions about Ethelig.
Peter Stewart
Hans Vogels
Feb 24, 2021, 2:33:23 AM2/24/21
to
Jan Wolfe
Feb 24, 2021, 2:40:28 PM2/24/21
to
Here is someone with the surname Marquess: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/36996210/william-kidd-marquess
On Monday, February 22, 2021 at 9:27:26 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
...
On Monday, February 22, 2021 at 9:27:26 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
...
Peter Stewart
Feb 24, 2021, 4:32:03 PM2/24/21
to
On 25-Feb-21 6:40 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> Here is someone with the surname Marquess: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/36996210/william-kidd-marquess
It's interesting that all four of his children listed apparently
> Here is someone with the surname Marquess: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/36996210/william-kidd-marquess
preferred the spelling 'Marquis' - I wonder if 'Marquess' was an
Anglicised version of an originally French surname, perhaps from
Huguenot ancestry via Canada.
Peter Stewart
wjhonson
Feb 24, 2021, 5:04:19 PM2/24/21
to
He does cite a man called Marquis ou Lemarquis, Charles
who arrived by 1673 which is the year he got married in Quebec
About his origins Jette states, son of Charles LeMarquis and Jeanne Bignon
of Mortagne sur Sevre, La Roche-sur-Yon, La Rochelle, Poitou
keri CA
Feb 25, 2021, 5:26:29 PM2/25/21
to
original ms uses the saxon d, but i used Aetheling as that seems
what most secondary works use for Edgar.
> I haven't looked into these occurrences, but according to the OED entry
> for atheling this means "A member of a noble family, a prince, lord,
> baron; in Old English poetry often used in plural for ‘men’ (viri); in
> later writers often restricted as a historical term to a prince of the
> blood royal, or even to the heir apparent to the throne." It is no more
> likely to indicate a connection to Edgar the Ætheling than someone
> surnamed Wales would be linked to a later her to the English throne.
>
actually Charles Windsor, or Mountbatten-Windsor since his father
adopted the Mountbatten name from his mother. So I would
expect his son William to be called Windsor as well. But I read that
at St.Andrews the name on his door and exam list was William
Wales, which seems rather odd. I wonder if his son is on his
school register as George Cambridge.
kerica
Mark Jennings
Feb 25, 2021, 6:12:30 PM2/25/21
to
On Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 10:26:29 PM UTC, keri CA wrote:
> This isnt to do with the op, but I believe that Prince Charles is
> actually Charles Windsor, or Mountbatten-Windsor since his father
> adopted the Mountbatten name from his mother. So I would
> expect his son William to be called Windsor as well. But I read that
> at St.Andrews the name on his door and exam list was William
> Wales, which seems rather odd. I wonder if his son is on his
> school register as George Cambridge.
Henry VII's consort was arguably surnamed "Plantagenet" (although that's anachronistic), and yet we know her as Elizabeth of York - it's essentially the same thing. The present Duke of Sussex served in the army as "Harry Wales", taking his name from his father's senior peerage title as if it were a medieval 'House' within the Royal Family. Outside of the current Royals, only peers take alternative surnames in this way today. But be careful not to mention the Arundels here...
> This isnt to do with the op, but I believe that Prince Charles is
> actually Charles Windsor, or Mountbatten-Windsor since his father
> adopted the Mountbatten name from his mother. So I would
> expect his son William to be called Windsor as well. But I read that
> at St.Andrews the name on his door and exam list was William
> Wales, which seems rather odd. I wonder if his son is on his
> school register as George Cambridge.
Peter Stewart
Feb 25, 2021, 7:02:25 PM2/25/21
to
On 26-Feb-21 10:12 AM, Mark Jennings wrote:
> On Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 10:26:29 PM UTC, keri CA wrote:
>
>> This isnt to do with the op, but I believe that Prince Charles is
>> actually Charles Windsor, or Mountbatten-Windsor since his father
>> adopted the Mountbatten name from his mother. So I would
>> expect his son William to be called Windsor as well. But I read that
>> at St.Andrews the name on his door and exam list was William
>> Wales, which seems rather odd. I wonder if his son is on his
>> school register as George Cambridge.
>
> Henry VII's consort was arguably surnamed "Plantagenet" (although that's anachronistic), and yet we know her as Elizabeth of York - it's essentially the same thing. The present Duke of Sussex served in the army as "Harry Wales", taking his name from his father's senior peerage title as if it were a medieval 'House' within the Royal Family.
This is a vexed question in several ways.
> On Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 10:26:29 PM UTC, keri CA wrote:
>
>> This isnt to do with the op, but I believe that Prince Charles is
>> actually Charles Windsor, or Mountbatten-Windsor since his father
>> adopted the Mountbatten name from his mother. So I would
>> expect his son William to be called Windsor as well. But I read that
>> at St.Andrews the name on his door and exam list was William
>> Wales, which seems rather odd. I wonder if his son is on his
>> school register as George Cambridge.
>
> Henry VII's consort was arguably surnamed "Plantagenet" (although that's anachronistic), and yet we know her as Elizabeth of York - it's essentially the same thing. The present Duke of Sussex served in the army as "Harry Wales", taking his name from his father's senior peerage title as if it were a medieval 'House' within the Royal Family.
Fist, as to the use of a title (Wales or Cambridge) to make an ad hoc
surname or descriptor, some members of the royal family have been
content with this and others not. Queen Victoria's last-surviving
grandchild, Princess Alice countess of Athlone, bristled at being called
"Princess Alice of Albany" after her father's dukedom, insisting that as
the granddaughter of a sovereign she was a princess of Great Britain and
Northern Ireland. Princess Alexandra lady Ogilvy does not usually get
called "Princess Alexandra of Kent" whereas her brother Prince Michael
frequently has "of Kent" appended to his given name.
Secondly, as to the dynastic brand name, PR trumps principle or
consistency and probably always has done. No-one assigned Mary I as
queen to the house of Hapsburg from her marriage, and she has been
considered a Tudor monarch ever since. Ditto Queen Anne, who was and is
considered a Stuart from her birth rather than belonging by marriage to
the house of Denmark. However, Queen Victoria has been frequently
considered the fist sovereign of the house of Saxe-Coburg, from Prince
Albert's family, rather than the last Hanoverian from her own. Married
women in her time were expected to take their husbands' surnames and
this convention was widely applied to her.
The present queen cleaved to the name Windsor, that was adopted in 1917,
despite her marriage and the same convention still generally applying in
the 1950s. This had more to do with the snobbery of her courtiers and
prime minister than with precedent, since the surname Mountbatten was
equally new and bogus but less regnal since it had never belonged to a
monarch anywhere.
If Prince Charles comes to the throne he may yet decide to be the first
Mountbatten sovereign. Then if Prince George has gotten used to calling
himself Cambridge (which is unlikely) he may change this if his father
becomes prince of Wales. Or he may prefer not to use either as a
surname, or any title for that matter.
Or, of course, he may prefer to call himself George Sandringham on the
model of the Arundels ...
Peter Stewart
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